Hey OP2,

Can I try a different tack?

The reason why you are able to hold the faith of Evangelical Christians up to scrutiny is that they have a solid position on the historical reality of Jesus and his place in the spiritual realm.

You seem to be giving slightly schizophrenic responses in your posts skipping from Jesus 'allegedly' said to "Jesus used parables to instruct people."

I am interested in what you believe so if you would be so kind as to answer three preliminary questions I feel it would be helpful.

1. Do you believe there was a historical person called Jesus who inspired the New Testament?

2. Do you believe that any part of his oral message has made it into written form in the bible?

3. Do you believe a God had any part in his life, teachings and/or death?

Thanks.

Pericles, How arrogant, you change me?...ha

I never stated that Christianity should be "thrown out the window" another Pericles fib! Any new statistics you have falsified to share?...lol

Daviy - I was taught Jesus loves me... cause the Bible tells me so.

You mean preachers have been fibbing to me all this time? How unChristion for them to fib?

I share Christians disappointments.

They want to know the truth, love their alleged God and generally be nice to everyone (except homosexuals).

Do preachers misrepresent the Bible, present false histories and their religious organisations cover up crimes?

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another"

Does homophobic bigotry destroy this verse?

Why can't Christians see this for what it is?

Paul discriminated against women 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and I Corinthians 14:34-35 and yet many women Christians don't see the parallels. Why?

Where else is the Bible wrong?

The trinity (a man made construct) is directly contradicted by Jesus himself in John 14:28 "...because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I". Not to mention what he says at his death, in the Lord's prayer etc.

Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon. Matthew 1:6 and yet it was traced through David's son Nathan. Luke 3:31. How can this be?

The Bible lists 28 generations from David to Jesus in Matthew 1:17 but 43 generations from David to Jesus. Luke 3:23-31. How can this be?

We all know that the Bible has been re-interpreted many times so how can every interpretation be inerrant when they changed the words?

Finally where are all the preachers? I have asked for "the experts" assistance in these complex matters and they fail to comment.

And where are the Christians from the "Get rich quick ministries"?

How do they justify their teachings when Jesus said Mark 10:25

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."

Csteele,

As I understand it, this thread is not about anyone's beliefs but about the way the Bible is used to influence beliefs by promoting it as 'inerrant' or 'infallible' (the same thing) or 'God's word'.

>>1. Do you believe there was a historical person called Jesus who inspired the New Testament?<<

There was such an historical person, so it makes no difference whether Op2 believes it or not.

>>2. Do you believe that any part of his oral message has made it into written form in the bible?<<

Whether Op2 believes it or not, the words of Jesus form a large part of the Gospels and the Apocalypse, some of them dictated by Jesus to his scribes (it is hard to write when you have had nails driven through your hands!). What they mean, however, depends upon whether they are taken literally or interpreted in the way that his contempoaries understood them.

>>3. Do you believe a God had any part in his life, teachings and/or death?<<

You or I or Op2 may or may not believe that there is such a thing as 'a god', (I don't), but it is obvious that the writers of the New Testament did, and their authority to command the obedience of their followers depended upon this belief.

Incidentally, the phrase "the Word of God" which occurs frequently in the NT, does not mean God is dictating the Bible, but is a coded reference to the royal line of David. "The Word of God increased" means that a child was born to the heir to the kingdom, i.e. when Jesus Justus was born to Mary Magdalene, when Jesus III was born and when Jesus IV was born.

This is an interesting claim, Sympneology.

>>the words of Jesus form a large part of the Gospels and the Apocalypse, some of them dictated by Jesus to his scribes (it is hard to write when you have had nails driven through your hands!)<<

Who were these scribes? Do they have names?

I have said on many occasions that one of the major shortcomings of the Bible, and biblical interpretation, is the fact that none of the writers was a contemporary. No-one to date has mentioned that there were scribes hanging around, writing it all down.

It would help to know which parts of the gospels were dictated, if it were clearer, which were the exact (dictated) words, and which were invented?

It would be a great help in discussions with OP2, if we could explain to him "Yes I know that's what the Bible says, but that part wasn't recorded verbatim. This part, on the other hand..."

And yes, OP2, it is clear that my efforts to tone down your hysteria has been unsuccessful. It was a forlorn hope only, I'm afraid.

>>I never stated that Christianity should be "thrown out the window" another Pericles fib!<<

Very true, OP2, you did not use those precise words. And I should have realized that you are only able to take words at their face value.

So what words have you used?

>>I am calling the churches to account after centuries of misleading their flocks<<

>>I don't believe Jesus said many of the things we are told he did!<<

>>there is no sweet way to challenge indoctrination, bigotry and unintelligent belief. I question the crazy laws of Moses<<

>>My questioning... is hopefully getting people to analyse their religion and it's foundations<<

>>religions can't let go of old flawed documents to justify their rules<<

>>The Bible is looking very dubious as a reference.<<

>>Are religious books men's rules designed to oppress free thinking?<<

Seems to me that you are heading in one direction, and one direction only.

If you succeed, and you completely discredit the Bible, what will you leave Christians with?

Pericles,

You continue to make a goose of yourself!

<<If you succeed, and you completely discredit the Bible, what will you leave Christians with?>>

Pericles are you, as an atheist, advocating Christians not be told the truth? They will have their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, God and their spirituality! It's only a reference book!

WOW and you said I undermine atheists. You just undermined atheism yourself...lol

You are like a dog chasing a parked car and wondering why your nose is sore...lol

Seems to me you don't know what you are talking about with the quotes you listed.

You make dumb and dumber look bright...lol

I have said all along I am not trying to undermine a persons "faith or spirituality".

1. If someone wishes to believe in God or Jesus they need to be told the truth. Faith based on honesty is better than the model you propose!

2. I can't say there isn't a God, and I haven't, all I can explain is why the Bible doesn't necessarily represent his words. Sorry I have an opinion in an Online Opinion site...go figure!

Hence lines like >>I don't believe Jesus said many of the things we are told he did!<<

3. Unlike you, your a self-confessed atheist, I am not pretending to be interested in a Christians feelings. I am pointing out (at times bluntly) why they should not just believe. That is what I meant by the term John 3:16 Christian. If their God gave them a brain I guess he meant them to use it!

4. If the Bible is their reference book of choice - I want them to think more broadly than their preacher teaches. Is thinking wrong?

5. When I was at school I was encouraged to think "outside the square" to enhance my education and I want all people (including Christians) to do the same. Are you against education and thinking?

So Periwinkles once again you have had your butt whipped... now go back to "atheist island" and make up some more statistics.

You are failing Atheism badly

In your dreams, OP2.

>>You make dumb and dumber look bright...lol<<

I'm not going to trade insults with you, so you needn't bother to pursue that line any longer.

>>If someone wishes to believe in God or Jesus they need to be told the truth.<<

Why?

This is the question that you keep evading.

Avoiding.

Hiding from.

What is it to you, if some people, of their own free will, hold certain beliefs through faith alone?

And why have you suddenly decided that it is, indeed, truth that needs to be told? Moreover, that it has to be you who tells it?

I'd just like to point out that you previously admitted that it isn't "TRUTH!" that is at issue here, but honesty. Remember?

>>I am seeking the TRUTH!<<

When I suggested that "TRUTH!" was not to be found, you confessed that...

>>You are correct about "Truth" I am asking for "Honesty"!<<

But now, it appears, we are back on that rickety old bicycle, "truth".

At least this time it doesn't come in capital letters and with an exclamation mark:

>>Pericles are you, as an atheist, advocating Christians not be told the truth?<<

Where the truth is undiscoverable, unimportant, irrelevant, obscure or a matter for perpetual conjecture, no-one should be subjected to the barrage of innuendo and needling criticism that you load into your posts.

>>Seems to me you don't know what you are talking about with the quotes you listed.<<

I stand by that list of verbatim excerpts from your posts. I notice that you haven't been able to defend a single one of them.

>>all I can explain is why the Bible doesn't necessarily represent his words. Sorry I have an opinion in an Online Opinion site...<<

It is not your opinion that is at issue here, as I have pointed out before.

"It is one thing to discuss the various possibilities that a historical analysis of the Bible present. It is entirely another to start with the premise - as you did - that because there are disputable facts in the Bible, Christianity is a crock."