Dear Col,

In order to fully understand any issue
one has to be able to see the full picture,
and not just one part of it. The tragedy
in this Israeli/Palestinian conflict is
that each side only sees their own point
of view.

There must be a way for Israel to exist securely
while allowing justice for the Palestinian people.

We should all support the rights of Israelis to
live in peace and security, but not at the
expense of the Palestinians.

As Loewenstein and others ask,
"Why do we constantly hear about Israel's need for
'security,' as though that justifies erecting walls,
checkpoints and barriers?

Why is the world told to believe that the
Palestinians should only accept peace on Israel's
terms?

Why does Israel have the right to treat the Palestinians
as they wish, and then blame them for reacting?

It is well and truly time for a radical re-thinking of
the conflict. They can't keep on doing what they're
doing, and expect different results.

Anyway,I won't be responding any further
to this topic. I've had a death in the family,
and I'm currently too upset to deal with anything else.

All The Best,

Unfortunately High Explosives rarely change peoples minds and Israel has reverted to the tactics of Nazi Germany in using Tanks and terror to force the enemy of the day to retreat. Just as Germany failed to defeat the Jewish people so the present attack by Israel will not defeat the Islamic people involved in Gaza. Ways need to be found to defeat the terrorist thinking of Hamas and the similar organisations in the Arab and Persian countries but High Explosives will not work. As for the retaliation by Israel being justified by the Hamas resort to rocketry, why do you think the Hamas resorted to the ineffectual rocket attacks? Obviously so as to cause the stupid over reaction by Israel. If you are the commander of the weaker force dependent on the support of the populace, the tool you use is to create terror in the minds of your opponent and get the stronger party to over react and hence give you greater support from your people. You must wonder at the stupidity of the Israel government non-thinkers. This is a political issue and brains will defeat brawn every day.

Foxy “There must be a way for Israel to exist securely while allowing justice for the Palestinian people.”

Based on the efforts Israel has made in the past to conclude accords with Egypt and Jordan, I suggest the aspiration you itemize would be forthcoming from Israel.

Based on the constant imposition of rocket attacks upon civilian Israeli target, I would appreciate knowing where you see such feelings being reciprocated by Palestinians.

“Why do we constantly hear about Israel's need for 'security,'”

Maybe dead athletes, airline passenger and crew, school children and other victims of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets makes “security” a pressing issue, I remember how the IRA bombings in London made “security” a more prominent topic in my thinking when I lived there

“Why is the world told to believe that the Palestinians should only accept peace on Israel's terms?”

Possibly because the Palestinians have never declared viable terms for peace themselves.

“Why does Israel have the right to treat the Palestinians as they wish, and then blame them for reacting?”

Chicken and Egg,

we are back to why was Israel able to reach peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan

“They can't keep on doing what they're doing, and expect different results.”

If you are referring to the murderous atrocities repeatedly initiated by the Palestinians

You are absolutely right!

My condolences regarding the death in your family

I hope you all caught the Keith Windschuttle hoax story. It's so apt in the light of threads like this. You can say anything -absolutely anything - about the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the Rightists will take it as gospel as long as it's pro-Israel.

It's said that the first casualty of war is truth, but in this war the Israelis built a bunker on truth's grave, exhumed the corpse for torture, claimed truth was a terrorist, and screamed "anti-Semite!" at anyone who dared suggest that truth might like to tell its own story.

UN Resolutions are not always what they seem?

Between 1967-1989 Israel was in violation of 131 UN resolutions including # 242 (Keeping the Middle East a Nuclear Free Zone).

Between 1955-1992 there were also 68 resolutions condemning them for specific actions.

Here are the Security Council resolutions concerning Israel since 1972 that were vetoed. (Guess by which country).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Not all the resolutions in the UN or the Security Council were submitted by Arab States and majority votes were cast by several countries.

Remember that it only took the non-compliance of a single resolution to invade Iraq.

The preliminary transfer plans Wobbles mentioned was an indication of choosing the Palestinians as a soft target for expansion before Israel was even created.

Remember Ben Gurion's other quotes?
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

“Anyone who believes you can't change history has never tried to write his memoirs.”

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

and so on.

Also, the idea that Hamas is likely to destroy Israel is somewhat fanciful, despite what they say.

At the current rate, it's going to take a very, very long time.

Interesting perspective there Rache.

You supply this quote of BenGurion:

"They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

The key words for our understanding are "They see".

Let's test that?

1/ Prior to the outbreak of anti Jewish violence around 1936.. the Jews simply bought land from willing Arab sellers.

Truth of Fiction?

2/ Once the UN declared a partition plan, Arabs declared war on Jews.

Truth of Fiction?

3/ UN resolutions are often a reflection of the religious or ideological position of the voting states rather than about Justice for all. If there happens to be a lot of small but voting Muslim nations or.. 'dependant/indebted on/to Islamic countries' (oil etc..sweetheart deals)non Muslim voters... then the outcome would be very suspicious.

Truth of Fiction?

4/ "We must expell Arabs" etc ? Unfortunately RACHE..it appears you have been the victim of the Arab misinformation campaign.

The real quote:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

"We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places."

* Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians (2000) by Efraim Karsh
* This was extensively quoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (1987) by Benny Morris, p. 25.

Naughty naughty.. Pericles will be all over your like a pitbull on a Chiwawa :)