White phosphorus is being used by the Israeli military in Gaza which causes horrendous burns, multi organ failure and lung damage (Australian, Jan 6 2009). Thanks to the Israeli blockade of medicines, fuel, bandages, machinery etc there is now no water for 530,000 people and, with only 3 days diesel left, the sewage pumping stations will stop and raw sewage will spill onto streets. This is defacto biological warfare.
Given that Gaza is the most densely populated place on earth it is bleeding obvious that hi-tech US guns, attack helicopters, tanks, F 16 fighter jets and warships blitzkrieging, amounts to a crime against humanity violating the Geneva Convention. The terror inflicted upon innocent children witnessing the blood and guts, the destruction of buildings, suffering severe wounds themselves and having their ears being pounded by intense sonic waves is a massive crime. The reaction of the Rudd government is downright appalling and a shame to Australia. Forum contributors lauding Christian conversion might like to excercise their minds with the question: What would Jesus do?

Dear Voltaire....

and for all.. repeat ALL of that list of suffering...there is only ONE party to blame...

You know which one? It's THIS ONE... the one which is founded on the words:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

and of course we all know that is..HAMAS....HAMAS....HAMAS.....

Do you understand the meaning of language? "OBLITERATE"

Do you have a shred of honesty in your heart? "OBLITERATE"

Do you have any honour..and any integrity in your being: "O-B-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-E"

How many times does a person need to post this foundation objective of Hamas? before dimwits in denial get it?

It was not easy to identify every Nazi in Germany..and due to the nature of war and the way Nazi's have enmeshed themselves into the community.. a heck of a lot of German 'civilians' suffered..

THAT'S WAR... and it was declared in this case in 1988 when that Charter was put together.

THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED IT....OR DENIED IT....OR RENOUNCED IT..... SO IT STILL APPLIES TO THIS SECOND.

Don't play games with our emotions by mentioning only ONE side of this sad conflict... be HONEST and mention the 6000 rockets hurled at Israeli KINDERGARTENS..(one of which was hit today)

HAMAS are NOT..repeat NOT using their rockets to my knowledge against the Israeli Military...they are STILL launching them against CIVILIAN targets.

HAMAS IS A VILE GENOCIDAL GUILTY GROUP OF ISLAMIST WARMONGERS and all the suffering of the people of Gaza is on THEIR heads, for which they should be tried for crimes against humanity.

“to a crime against humanity violating the Geneva Convention.”

Maybe if they stopped dropping rockets on Israelis and followed through with some of the negotiated peace accords which they have been party to over the years, they would not be in this pooh

“The terror inflicted upon innocent children…”

Is no different to the terror of rockets landing on innocent Jewish children.

“What would Jesus do?”

Well I am sure he would not persuade his sister to become a human bomb

An old saying…

Let him who is without sin throw the first stone…

Palestinians have been throwing stones, bombs, blowing up aircraft with civilians still in them, assassinating Olympic atheletes they have indulged their overgrown sense of “Self Entitlement” to the point that the Jordanians kicked them out of Jordan and the Egyptians want nothing to do with them.

Heres another old saying

May they reap what they sow.

This problem will be resolved only when Israel prevails, what remains to be seen is just how committed Israel is to prevailing.

my view, if you intend to fight a war, you will not prevail with half measures or those fsvoured by the pundits who promote a "restrained response" (whatever that is).

The best scenario is to commit completely with the intent of disabling / destroying the enemy's potential for any form of counter attack / action, not just for now but for ever.

Actually Jesus is coming back at Armageddon with a sharp two-edged sword in his mouth to kill the Kings Of The Earth and their armies...Revelation 19:17-21.
The Kings Of The East will be there too...i.e China and her 200 million troops.

I think Jesus puts up with little beeswax when it comes to Israel.

After all...they are Gods people.

hamash fired rockets into Israeland are now getting them back ...it's like the old saying" people in glass houses do not throw stones"!

Col Rouge, Polycarp and Gibo exemplify their ignorance of Palestinian/Israeli politics and history to such an extent that I recommend they read what non-Zionist Israelis themselves are saying just in case they want to stump up a charge against me of anti-semitism. First off, read Adam Keller's "Terrible Days:Social Divisions and Political Paradoxes in Israel" and then ask yourselves how you would react to being ousted from land which your family had worked for a century or more; to be ordered at gunpoint by a recently arrived Russian Jew to get out, for example. Why can't Palestinians sink wells as deep as those of Israelis? Why can't they export citrus crops? Why do they have to be passive as they watch Israeli settlements spreading over their landscape and listen to fundamentalist settlers mouth that they have been given the land by God and that's that? And so it goes on, repression, repression, repression backed up by the biggest nuclear-armed military in the Middle East and funded by $3 billion p.a. by the US and set to increase soon.
The Israelis kicked out from Palestine Prof. Richard Falk the UN's Special Raporteur and banned journalists from Gaza because they don't want the world to know the truth of their barbarity which, for example, has left huge swathes of Lebanon covered in cluster bombs awaiting a farmer or a curious child.
Read Akiva Eldar's "White Flag, Black Flag" in which he says:
"The question that must be asked, therefore, is how many Palestinians and Israelis must die before the Israeli public wakes up from its new-old illusion that tanks and planes can perpetuate the occupation. The answer: As long as Israelis expect Palestinians to raise white flags, a black flag will fly over their own head". (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052621.html)
Peter Ustinov told the truth when he said "From the US war against Viet Nam to the "War on Terror", we see State terror: "Terrorism is the war of the poor. War is the terrorism of the rich"

Voltaire “Col Rouge, Polycarp and Gibo exemplify their ignorance of Palestinian/Israeli politics”

And Voltaire exemplifies his (or her or its) ignorance not only of Col Rouge, Polycarp and Gibo but also of 20th century history.

“want to stump up a charge against me of anti-semitism.”

Far from stump up anything for you, I would not cross the road to relieve myself upon you, even if you were on fire.

If we go back to the 1967 war, when the combined forces of the middle east, including Egypt and Syria conspired to push the Israelis into the sea, we see the clear conquest by Israel, from their position of overwhelming disadvantage, of lands formerly non-Israeli in nature.

The unprovoked attack by the cowardly Arab forces, collectively mustered against Israel, resulted in the formal extinguishment of any right to land title by default.

The land presently occupied by Palestinians is only their because Israel gave it back.

Personally, it is like most things which are “gifted”, they are never properly appreciated by the recipients of the gift.

As for "Terrorism is the war of the poor. War is the terrorism of the rich"

Oh how cute, hardly philosophical though, just a placarded cliché for you to roll off when it suits.

Doubtless you read that somewhere, I suspect you lack the where-with-all to have originated it.

Now you are welcome to have another slap and I will simply counter whatever drivel you care to post...

happy slapping

I would just like to add a bit of extra
information on the Six Day War. I find
it's helpful to have a complete picture,
and not simply a one-sided perspective.

Yes, in June 1967, the Six Day War changed
the face of the Middle East.

In less than a week, Israel trebled the land
under its control, gaining territories
such as the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Sinai and
East Jerusalem.

Despite US acceptance of the war's outcome,
there was concern at the UN, and on 22 November 1967
the Security Council approved Resolution 242, making
it clear that Israel should withdraw from
'territories conquered.' While the resolution was
unanimously passed, it also called for establishment
of defensible borders for all relevant parties
(Israel, Syria, Egypt, Jordan).

To the present day, Israel has insisted that a cessation
of Palestinian 'terrorism' is a pre-requisite for
negotiations. While the international community demands
an end to the occpuation, US support has enabled Israel
to avoid taking concrete steps.

Overnight, Israel became an occupying force with control
over one million Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

A British foreign correspondent James Cameron, remarked
with awe, "Zion was not born nineteen years ago with the
birth of the state of Israel, but today, ...the Jewish
nation suddenly translated from David into Goliath."

Menachim Begin, a member of the Stern Gang during Israel's
independence struggle and later prime minister, underlined
what was at stake in 1969:

"If this is Palestine and not the land of Israel, then
you are conquerors and not tillers of the land.
You are invaders. If this is Palestine, then it belongs
to a people who lived here before you came."

He was wise enough to recognise the necessity of
negating Palestinian rights to their own homeland.

cont'd...

I forgot to acknowledge
Antony Loewenstein's book,
"My Israel Question."

As Dr Ilan Pappe, Senior Lecturer
at the University of Haifa, Israel,
and author of 'A History of Modern
Palestine,' states"

"My Israel Question will serve as an
essential guide for those who dare to
criticise Zionist wrongdoing in the past
and Israeli policies in the present,
without being deterred by false allegations
of antisemitism."

Dear_Voltaire....

I'm not historically ignorant..but.... I don't delve into the minutae of day to day incidents..

The flaws in your argument basically are as follows: (this is big picture stuff..not everyday)

Whatever you or anyone says about people being disposessed... it rebounds on us for a start (Australia...Indigenous disposession etc)

Secondly.. it depends a lot on perspective...in particular historical starting point.

If land is stolen from your great great grandparents by a Mafia don who forced your great great grandad to sign over his land at the point of a gun....is it less 'stolen' in your generation? It doesn't matter if someone else has purchased it.. morally it belongs to..YOU as the rightful heir.

I start with Abraham :) (have fun with that) Isaac..and Jacob..the tribes.. the kings..the divided kingdom...the exiles...the return.. the Romans 63bc invasion, 70ad exile of Jews, the Muslim invaders of 637 and subsequent illegal Arab migration since then onto the stolen land.

Now.. if YOU were an Australian Aboriginal, and your mob had been growing in power and wealth over a long period of time, and you found an 'un-named foreign power' which promised to provide serious heavy duty armaments and training...would you not be at least tempted to have a bit of a go at re-taking Australia for your mob?

I can assure you..without a shadow of a doubt, there are MANY Aboriginals in Melbourne who would do just that.

So..back to our story.

Prior to 1948 many exiled Jews BOUGHT land in Palestine. No one invaded...they bought. In 1929 the Arabs heard an untrue rumor that Jews were taking over the Muslim holy places and massacred the Jews of Hebron. (do a wiki on that)

In 1948... some very weary and determined Jews decided "our turn" and made it back to Israel and TOOK it...by force... yep.. just as they had been 'forced' out...and kept out...now..they, by force.. took it back.
But wait..there's more. The extent of the land promised by God was from the Red sea to the Euprhates.. I'd say they are exericising considerable restraint.... wouldn't you?

Dear voltaire,

Starting a thread on the Israel-Palestine conflict,
guarantees an abusive and vitriolic response,
so I Thank You for understanding the importance of
doing so.

There is a price to pay for speaking uncomfortable
truths.

Rational debate is extremely difficult in such
an emotive environment especially when
personal insults become the preferred mode
of communications for many who wish to engage on
this issue.

I hope that this will make you even more determined
to continue to examine the conflict.

All The Best,

I don't really have a position on the appalling situation in Gaza - both sides have behaved abominably and continue to do so. Neither am I able to offer any kind of solution, except to perhaps suggest that if all external funding was somehow able to be cut from both Hamas and Israel, we'd quickly see a reduction in overt hostilities.

But that's about as likely as them all agreeing to convert to Christianity and live happily ever after. Which is why I haven't commented much about the latest travesty.

Having said that, I think that voltaire's perspective is rather more interesting and nuanced than most of what I'm reading. That s/he's attracted the degree of vitriol we've seen thus far from some of OLO's most obviously bigoted idiots can only lend credibility to the argument.

Polycarp/ Boaz,

“I'm not historically ignorant..but.... I don't delve into the minute of day to day incidents”
“Prior to 1948 many exiled Jews BOUGHT land in Palestine. No one invaded”

- Palestinians (& arabs) are after the 1967 borders, labeled legally as ‘occupied territories’. Jewish settlement in occupied territories is also illegal according to international laws (check official EU stand on Jewish settlement).

- When Chinese individuals buy land in Queensland, can they declare a country the next day?

- Going after a bunch of terrorists does not justify collective punishment for 1.7 million people living under less than a dollar a day. Siege included depriving them from basic humanitarian needs such as water, electricity and basic medicines.

Your comment displays ignorance and shameful unhuman behavior.
What I can’t understand is you keep re-appearing preaching on ‘love’ on other threads.
Its called split personality disorder. Seek help,

Peace,

Foxy “Security Council approved Resolution 242, making it clear that Israel should withdraw from 'territories conquered.'

Two questions

1: do you suppose, had Israel not prevailed in that conflict, would UN have worded a resolution making it clear that the combined Arab forces withdraw from the land of Israel?

2: if UN did issue such a resolution, do you sincerely believe the combined Arab forces would have actually complied with it?

“To the present day, Israel has insisted that a cessation of Palestinian 'terrorism' is a pre-requisite for negotiations.”

If it were your home being attacked by Hamas rockets, your athletes being murdered by Palestinian Terrorists, your civilian aircraft being bombed and hijacked by Palestinian gun men, would you not seek similar assurances?

We see, in Africa, the Authority of UN resolutions. Rwanda, Congo, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Darfur the list goes on,

We saw in the Balkans any number UN resolutions

To be honest Foxy, UN resolutions have the international significance of a discarded paper tissue and carry with them a similar moral standing.

Regarding the wisdom of Menachim Begin,

It is a pity that Arafat, Fatah and since them Hamas and Hezbollah do not appear to be “wise enough”.

You will remember seeing Israel conclude a peace accord with Jordan and a separate accord with Egypt.

I have observed how it is the Palestinians who refuse to go to commit and saw them kicked out of Jordan, taking up residence in Lebanon, from where they have likewise launched rocket attacks.

If Palestinians were ever sincere in seeking peace, what have they been doing for the past 50 years?

Why can they not do what Jordan and Egypt and Israel have already done?

Finally to Voltaire you suggest “Rational debate is extremely difficult in such an emotive environment especially when personal insults become the preferred mode”

The simplest way for Voltaire to avoid emotive responses would be for him to avoid using them himself.

I find “rational debate’ is "extremely difficult" with anyone who declares that they believe I ’exemplify ignorance”.

" the land promised by God ..."
So God's been handing out Real Estate?

If I and my ancestors lived in a certain part of what used to be called Palestine but was evicted by an occupying force, I may never be able to go back - but if my mother happened to be Jewish I may "return" to Israel any time I wish, even if I have never actually been there before, and live there as an official citizen without the threat of extradition.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

It's as reasonable as challenging some misguided people as being "Holocaust deniers" while also denying that Palestine ever existed and creating a Warsaw ghetto-like existence for it's population.

It's as reasonable as claiming to be the eternal victim, yet selling arms to internationally repressive regimes and persistantly violating UN directives about illegal occupation.

It's a reasonable as an "eight-hundred eyes-for-an-eye" (and rising fast) ethos.

It's as reasonable as demanding another country have a UN supported democratic election but then kidnapping members of it's Government.

It's as reasonable as a full-scale military action against a country with no Navy, Air Force, Army or way of defending itself.

It's as resonable as calling your own dead civilians "innocent victims" but others as "casualties of war".

It's as reasonable as thinking that this will provide any sort of solution (past the pending election at least).

It's as reasonable as enforcing harsh sanctions without considering that there may be a response.

It's as resonable as claiming not to be indiscriminant in it's attacks while not allowing foreign journalists into the area as witnesses.

Then again, it's as reasonable as believing that a deity will soon be coming out of the clouds on the back of a flying horse and slaughtering all those who don't believe in Him.

Sounds like a win-win situation for everybody doen't it?.

It took 200 years to kick out the Crusaders. 60 years isn't that much really.

Voltaire,

I have to agree with Col. It’s a really bad idea to call anyone on OLO ignorant, especially since you are relatively new. People are bound to retaliate.

Most of us have heard all the "facts" you have presented a hundred times in just as many permutations. Whatever Col and Poly and Gibo are, they are not ignorant of the facts.

You, however, seem to have missed the fact that the average Palestinian is 15.5 years old. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians have not known a world before the First intifada.

This is not to pretend that it is a non-issue. But the emotive language about eviction and dispossession is entirely misplaced.

Richard Falk is not a disinterested party in this dispute. His organisation, the UNHRC has NEVER had a resolution which wasn't aimed at Israel.

What you have also missed is that the Arab League and the Islamic Conference are together the most powerful voting bloc in the UN. Therefore, only those people and organisations sympathetic to this largely undemocratic alliance are appointed and funded.

reprinted from http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8347#131197 >> "In recent years, the Middle East was the subject of 76% of country-specific UNGA resolutions, 100% of the Human Rights Council resolutions, 100% of the CSW resolutions … the UNHRC was widely criticized in 2007 for failing to condemn [ANY] other human rights abusers besides Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestinians,_and_the_United_Nations"

Please let us not pretend that the UN is neutral or unbiased on this issue. This is a fundamental failing of the UN. In particular, the very idea that non democratic countries like Iran, Syria, Libya, Sudan and Somalia can play a pivotal role in issuing UN resolutions leaves me cold.

Wobbles

you say >> "It took 200 years to kick out the Crusaders. 60 years isn't that much really."

I see. Your (final) solution is to drive the Jews out of Israel. Ethnic cleansing is also the goal of the terrorists in Gaza, Tehran, and Damascus. It's called anti-Semitism, and although the word is bandied about too often, you are a certified and certifiable case.

Paul L,
I'm talking about driving the Israelis out of Palestine you clown!

The Jewish historian Ilan Pappe states that the removal of the Palestinians in 1948 was deliberate ethnic cleansing and was based on plans drawn up before 1948 by their Transfer Committee.

This committee was set up to "evaluate the “quality” of the 500 - 600 Arab villages, i.e. to find out which village had fertile land and what was the wealth of village. It was preparing for the day that Israel would take over these villages. And then, after the ethnic cleansing took place, it was renamed and became more like a distribution committee. It had to divide the spoils between the various Kibbutzim movements, and the various Jewish agencies that dealt with Settlement. And so it was an important official facet of the leadership. But it was all conceived by the leader of the Jewish Agency and later the first Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion.".

The Palestinians did not leave voluntarily but were systematically expelled.

Before the war even ended there was an anti-Repatriation policy to prevent the Palestinians returning by erasing their villages and converting them into Jewish settlements or fertile land. Most of those that managed to return did so illegally.

These are examples of many myths that have been peddled as facts in that David vs Goliath struggle that many are trying to suggest - with Israel being the weak and helpless David, when it's actually the Arab "Goliath" throwing the stones.

As for that "anti-Semitism" catchcry that gets bandied about all too easily (like some unique get out of jail free card that no other group can imitate), my criticism is with the policies of the state of Israel, not with the Jewish religion.

Good Ol Wobbles :)

You said:

<<This committee was set up to "evaluate the “quality” of the 500 - 600 Arab villages, i.e. to find out which village had fertile land and what was the wealth of village. It was preparing for the day that Israel would take over these villages. And then, after the ethnic cleansing took place, it was renamed and became more like a distribution committee.>>

Hmmmmm now THAT sounds like the kind of thing our white/british Squatters did for THIS country..... between me and thee..it's a rather familiar and predictable pattern of human behavior.

UN Resolutions are not always what they seem. Countries and interests lobby for position and votes.. in their own interests. Many decisions are not based on justice but the political/religious flavor of those voting.

CJ MORGAN.. said probably the most brilliant thing he has said for many months.. which was:

<<I don't really have a position on the appalling situation in Gaza - both sides have behaved abominably and continue to do so. Neither am I able to offer any kind of solution,>>

BIG TICK to the words "both sides" hoooooRAY.. now..try to tell THAT to the anti-war/muslim/socialists at Melbourne rally's.

CJ..there is a solution though.. as I've outlined in other places.
1/ Both sides stop all attacks/rockets
2/ Hamas renounce the ugly bits of it's charter "Islam will obliterate Israel"
3/ Hamas agrees to no more tunnels/rockets
4/ International monitors to verify.

But that will only solve the immediate violence, not the root causes.

FH.. next time you take your kiddie winkles for a nice picnic there in Sydney.. remember that the land was once Aboriginal :)
Life and history does not always go the way we hope, and it's very diffffficult to speak about 'morality/justice/fairness' without ultimately shooting our own big toe off.

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.. errr *cough*... the rocketing of Israeli kindergartens is not collective punishment?

PS. hmm you don't find a problem with that page 1 of the HAMAS "Mein Kampf"?
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

"Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it just as it has obliterated others before it" ?

Dear Col,

In order to fully understand any issue
one has to be able to see the full picture,
and not just one part of it. The tragedy
in this Israeli/Palestinian conflict is
that each side only sees their own point
of view.

There must be a way for Israel to exist securely
while allowing justice for the Palestinian people.

We should all support the rights of Israelis to
live in peace and security, but not at the
expense of the Palestinians.

As Loewenstein and others ask,
"Why do we constantly hear about Israel's need for
'security,' as though that justifies erecting walls,
checkpoints and barriers?

Why is the world told to believe that the
Palestinians should only accept peace on Israel's
terms?

Why does Israel have the right to treat the Palestinians
as they wish, and then blame them for reacting?

It is well and truly time for a radical re-thinking of
the conflict. They can't keep on doing what they're
doing, and expect different results.

Anyway,I won't be responding any further
to this topic. I've had a death in the family,
and I'm currently too upset to deal with anything else.

All The Best,

Unfortunately High Explosives rarely change peoples minds and Israel has reverted to the tactics of Nazi Germany in using Tanks and terror to force the enemy of the day to retreat. Just as Germany failed to defeat the Jewish people so the present attack by Israel will not defeat the Islamic people involved in Gaza. Ways need to be found to defeat the terrorist thinking of Hamas and the similar organisations in the Arab and Persian countries but High Explosives will not work. As for the retaliation by Israel being justified by the Hamas resort to rocketry, why do you think the Hamas resorted to the ineffectual rocket attacks? Obviously so as to cause the stupid over reaction by Israel. If you are the commander of the weaker force dependent on the support of the populace, the tool you use is to create terror in the minds of your opponent and get the stronger party to over react and hence give you greater support from your people. You must wonder at the stupidity of the Israel government non-thinkers. This is a political issue and brains will defeat brawn every day.

Foxy “There must be a way for Israel to exist securely while allowing justice for the Palestinian people.”

Based on the efforts Israel has made in the past to conclude accords with Egypt and Jordan, I suggest the aspiration you itemize would be forthcoming from Israel.

Based on the constant imposition of rocket attacks upon civilian Israeli target, I would appreciate knowing where you see such feelings being reciprocated by Palestinians.

“Why do we constantly hear about Israel's need for 'security,'”

Maybe dead athletes, airline passenger and crew, school children and other victims of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets makes “security” a pressing issue, I remember how the IRA bombings in London made “security” a more prominent topic in my thinking when I lived there

“Why is the world told to believe that the Palestinians should only accept peace on Israel's terms?”

Possibly because the Palestinians have never declared viable terms for peace themselves.

“Why does Israel have the right to treat the Palestinians as they wish, and then blame them for reacting?”

Chicken and Egg,

we are back to why was Israel able to reach peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan

“They can't keep on doing what they're doing, and expect different results.”

If you are referring to the murderous atrocities repeatedly initiated by the Palestinians

You are absolutely right!

My condolences regarding the death in your family

I hope you all caught the Keith Windschuttle hoax story. It's so apt in the light of threads like this. You can say anything -absolutely anything - about the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the Rightists will take it as gospel as long as it's pro-Israel.

It's said that the first casualty of war is truth, but in this war the Israelis built a bunker on truth's grave, exhumed the corpse for torture, claimed truth was a terrorist, and screamed "anti-Semite!" at anyone who dared suggest that truth might like to tell its own story.

UN Resolutions are not always what they seem?

Between 1967-1989 Israel was in violation of 131 UN resolutions including # 242 (Keeping the Middle East a Nuclear Free Zone).

Between 1955-1992 there were also 68 resolutions condemning them for specific actions.

Here are the Security Council resolutions concerning Israel since 1972 that were vetoed. (Guess by which country).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Not all the resolutions in the UN or the Security Council were submitted by Arab States and majority votes were cast by several countries.

Remember that it only took the non-compliance of a single resolution to invade Iraq.

The preliminary transfer plans Wobbles mentioned was an indication of choosing the Palestinians as a soft target for expansion before Israel was even created.

Remember Ben Gurion's other quotes?
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

“Anyone who believes you can't change history has never tried to write his memoirs.”

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

and so on.

Also, the idea that Hamas is likely to destroy Israel is somewhat fanciful, despite what they say.

At the current rate, it's going to take a very, very long time.

Interesting perspective there Rache.

You supply this quote of BenGurion:

"They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

The key words for our understanding are "They see".

Let's test that?

1/ Prior to the outbreak of anti Jewish violence around 1936.. the Jews simply bought land from willing Arab sellers.

Truth of Fiction?

2/ Once the UN declared a partition plan, Arabs declared war on Jews.

Truth of Fiction?

3/ UN resolutions are often a reflection of the religious or ideological position of the voting states rather than about Justice for all. If there happens to be a lot of small but voting Muslim nations or.. 'dependant/indebted on/to Islamic countries' (oil etc..sweetheart deals)non Muslim voters... then the outcome would be very suspicious.

Truth of Fiction?

4/ "We must expell Arabs" etc ? Unfortunately RACHE..it appears you have been the victim of the Arab misinformation campaign.

The real quote:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

"We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places."

* Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians (2000) by Efraim Karsh
* This was extensively quoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (1987) by Benny Morris, p. 25.

Naughty naughty.. Pericles will be all over your like a pitbull on a Chiwawa :)

Boaz/ Polycarp,

"FH.. next time you take your kiddie winkles for a nice picnic there in Sydney.. remember that the land was once Aboriginal :) Life and history does not always go the way we hope, and it's very diffffficult to speak about 'morality/justice/fairness' without ultimately shooting our own big toe off"

Faulty argument: this is not the 1700's where lands where for grab, we are talking about a land being devoured under the UN and modern international laws. There was no UN or a country called "Aborigina" back then. You are parroting the argument of the greedy.

I thought intellectual dishonesty was your only flaw.

Polycarp,

Land purchases made 12 years before the foundation of Israel aren't relevant to what happened after 1948 (and 1967 in particular).

Nor (as Fellow-Human pointed out), is the siezure of ("unoccupied") land over 200 years ago the same as what happened 60 years ago. If it was, then you can justify anything. When do we start killing the first-born male children?

Maybe you should check some of YOUR sources also.

Efraim Karsh - Political scientist Ian Lustick describes Karsh's writing in Fabricating Israeli History as "malevolent and the nature of his analysis as erratic and sloppy. The book, he wrote, is ripe with 'howlers, contradictions and distortions".
Criticisms from other experts include -
"He is simply not what he makes himself out to be, a trained historian (nor political/social scientist)," and encouraged "robust responses [that] make sure that any self-respecting scholar will be too embarrassed to even try to incorporate the Karsh books in his/her teaching or research because they can't pretend they didn't know how flimsy their foundations are." plus
"..a mélange of distortions, half-truths, and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of both the source material (...) and the history of the Zionist-Arab conflict." and so on.

The UN "is what it is". Support or criticism comes easily from both sides whenever it suits an argument. The Security Council however, doesn't seem particularly top-heavy with struggling Muslim or dependent states, especially when you see the details of actual votes cast by all members.

Would it surprise you to learn that both Israel and the USA earlier helped finance and support Hamas as a way of driving a wedge between Fateh and the PLO? Looks a lot like Iraq and Iran in that respect.
Didn't think so.

Rache,

The UN is a joke. The very idea that totalitarian, theocratic and other non democratic countries should have a vote on ANY issue which concerns another country is HIGH FARCE.

This Farce is best exemplified by the actions of the Human Rights Commission, recently replaced by the Human Rights Council because of its BIAS against Israel. This UN body charged with establishing and enforcing international human rights has adopted as many resolutions against Israel as the combined total of country-specific resolutions adopted against all other countries in the world. North Korea, Burma, China, Russia, a brace of dysfunctional and despotic African and Middle Eastern countries combined, only attract as many UNHRC resolutions as Israel. This same body denied Israel membership, funnily enough. You can pretend that this treatment is merited, those of us with two eyes find it offensive.

Too continue >> "

* Of 10 emergency special sessions called by the GA, six have been about Israel. No emergency sessions have been held on the Rwandan genocide, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, or the two decades of atrocities in Sudan.

* The U.N. Human Rights Council (HRC), which replaced the Commission on Human Rights in March 2006, has been even more hopelessly ineffective than its predecessor, and is permanently engaged in criticism of Israel while ignoring pressing international human rights crises.

The UN Human Rights Council has directed 100% of its country specific resolutions towards censuring Israel. The general Assembly has directed 76% of its country specific resolutions towards censuring Israel. The Committee for the support of Women has directed 100% of its country specific resolutions towards censuring Israel. " http://www.adl.org/international/Israel-UN-1-introduction.asp

This is scarcely believable, but when you actually look into the UN’s anti-Israeli activities it makes sense. To my knowledge there are NO UN resoltions specifically criticising Palestine. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html

TBC

CONT’

This year, during the 61th Session of the General Assembly (2006-2007), the time spent by ambassadors on enacting the 22nd anti-Israel resolution of the year was time not spent on passing a single resolution on Sudan's genocide in Darfur. http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1359197/k.6748/UN_Israel__AntiSemitism.htm

You say >> “. The Security Council however, doesn't seem particularly top-heavy with struggling Muslim or dependent states, especially when you see the details of actual votes cast by all members.”

No but it is often fairly heavily stacked with enemies of the US, who can, and do use resolutions regarding Israel as a chance to pressure/hurt the US. This year’s members, beside the permanent five were Burkina Faso, Costa Rica, Croatia, Libya and Vietnam.

Lets please stop pretending that the existence of so many UN resolutions indicate Israel has done something wrong. It indicates the political reality of a significant bias against Israel within the UN.

And you can stop pretending that Israel intends to KEEP Palestine. The very fact that Israel has signed treaties and traded land in return for peace with Egypt and Jordan, as well as handing back the west Bank puts the lie to the expansionist Israel argument. Ben Gurion’s quotes do not reflect the reality of the offers Israel has since made. They are thus irrelevant.

You say >> “Also, the idea that Hamas is likely to destroy Israel is somewhat fanciful, despite what they say. At the current rate, it's going to take a very, very long time.”

For starters, Hamas KNOW its going to take a long time, but they have global demography on their side. Secondly, it doesn’t matter if Hamas can’t destroy Israel, they can do an awful lot of harm trying. Israel needn’t be threatened with complete annihilation before it is allowed to defend itself.

I am amazed at the triviality and nit picking in the various threads on this subject. Who cares about the history? - the question is what next must be done to move towards a solution. Yet again Israel military forces have been poorly led into a no win situation and Israel has lost yet another a battle against it's enemy. What are the thoughts about how to create a peaceful and prosperous environment for Israel and it's neighbours? Obviously none of the governments in the region have a clue. Perhaps Big Brother needs to step in....

Dear ORAMZI,

From reading all the posts on this thread
I'm beginning to see that it does no
good whatsoever to quote history,
suffering, point fingers,
or take sides in this conflict.
It achieves nothing - and it upsets people
even further.

You're absolutely right, it won't result in
any agreement.
It only encourages emotional reactions.
With no empathy or understanding.

All we can do is try to understand
that no one has a monopoly on suffering,
and pray that the international community
and the US applies enough pressure to get
both parties in this conflict to agree to
meet face-to-face and discuss ways to end
this conflict that is just and secure for
all concerned.

Dear RAche....

no it would not surprise me in the slightest. (Standard military/political tactic, "divide and rule")

KARSH (and Morris)... Rache.. all you showed me there is that both of them can get a whacking from their opponents.. it's like an adjective competition... so.. doesn't this make you just a tad cynical about the value of information from EITHER side?

FH... u funny boy.. making 'colorful' distinctions about what is valid and what is not...about land? naughty man. Talk to some aboriginals about your views..I recommend a trip to Redfern.
Tell them that their land was 'up for grabs'..and I'll pay the ICU costs :)

HISTORY is important.

JEWS bought land.
JEWS migrated and bought land.
ARABS rejected a partition plan and attacked them...

HISTORY

Palestine has remained (from the destruction of Jerusalem until today) the neglected province of absent rulers and the runway of fluctuating populations.

Originally Statehood was the Kingdoms of Israel/Judah

Then a Roman province,
then Byzantine,
Then under Arab rule in 637 A.D. The Arabs ruled it as foreign conquerors for 400 years to lose it in 1071 to the Seljuk Turks (1071-1099).

Then...Christian Crusaders occupied it for nearly two centuries,

Then it was ruled by Tartars,

Then Mongols (1244-1260),

Then Mamelukes of Egypt (1260-1517), and

Then...Ottoman Turks, who held it until

FINALLY...

it was mandated by the Allies to Great Britain at the close of World War I.

In ALL of that..the ONLY group which did not 'conquer' the land was.... NONE..(including Jews) But they DID have a divine call "Goto a land I will show you" to Abraham...No one else had that.

So.... my brain says.. "if you believe the Ottomans or Seljuks or Romans or Arabs had legitimate authority (by virtue of conquest) you must ALSO agree that the JEWS of modern times have EQUAL legitimacy."

If you DON'T believe any of these were legitimate...you ALSO condemn the Arab Muslim invasion of Umar (637) on which Hamas claim is based.

Aaah.."Logic & Reason"...great inventions.

Whoops

I made a mistake in my recent post.

The line which reads

"The very fact that Israel has signed treaties and traded land in return for peace with Egypt and Jordan, as well as handing back the west Bank puts the lie to the expansionist Israel argument. "

should have said

"The very fact that Israel has signed treaties and traded land in return for peace with Egypt and Jordan, as well as handing back the the Gaza Strip puts the lie to the expansionist Israel argument. "

Paul L, For all it's alleged "flaws" the UN is the only forum we have to deal with international tension and humanitarian matters.

I suspect that you would subscribe to the sentiment of the US Ambassador to the UN (John Bolton) who said "There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is only the international community, which can only be led by the only remaining superpower, which is the United States."

Now wouldn't that just solve everything?

Rache,

Don't suspect, Ask. Otherwise you look like a dill.

I'm not a huge supporter of America exercising its unilateralist power. America can't go it alone. In fact even the US knows it needs allies.

You admit the UN is flawed. Good. My point is, how can we lambast Israel based upon the numerous resolutions cooked up by its enemies. The UN is riven with such political machinations.

We need a new body, in which only truly democratic countries have voting rights. Do we really want the Sudanese, the Somali's, the Libyans, The Iranians or the Cubans deciding UN policy