Polycarp/ Boaz,

“I'm not historically ignorant..but.... I don't delve into the minute of day to day incidents”
“Prior to 1948 many exiled Jews BOUGHT land in Palestine. No one invaded”

- Palestinians (& arabs) are after the 1967 borders, labeled legally as ‘occupied territories’. Jewish settlement in occupied territories is also illegal according to international laws (check official EU stand on Jewish settlement).

- When Chinese individuals buy land in Queensland, can they declare a country the next day?

- Going after a bunch of terrorists does not justify collective punishment for 1.7 million people living under less than a dollar a day. Siege included depriving them from basic humanitarian needs such as water, electricity and basic medicines.

Your comment displays ignorance and shameful unhuman behavior.
What I can’t understand is you keep re-appearing preaching on ‘love’ on other threads.
Its called split personality disorder. Seek help,

Peace,

Foxy “Security Council approved Resolution 242, making it clear that Israel should withdraw from 'territories conquered.'

Two questions

1: do you suppose, had Israel not prevailed in that conflict, would UN have worded a resolution making it clear that the combined Arab forces withdraw from the land of Israel?

2: if UN did issue such a resolution, do you sincerely believe the combined Arab forces would have actually complied with it?

“To the present day, Israel has insisted that a cessation of Palestinian 'terrorism' is a pre-requisite for negotiations.”

If it were your home being attacked by Hamas rockets, your athletes being murdered by Palestinian Terrorists, your civilian aircraft being bombed and hijacked by Palestinian gun men, would you not seek similar assurances?

We see, in Africa, the Authority of UN resolutions. Rwanda, Congo, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Darfur the list goes on,

We saw in the Balkans any number UN resolutions

To be honest Foxy, UN resolutions have the international significance of a discarded paper tissue and carry with them a similar moral standing.

Regarding the wisdom of Menachim Begin,

It is a pity that Arafat, Fatah and since them Hamas and Hezbollah do not appear to be “wise enough”.

You will remember seeing Israel conclude a peace accord with Jordan and a separate accord with Egypt.

I have observed how it is the Palestinians who refuse to go to commit and saw them kicked out of Jordan, taking up residence in Lebanon, from where they have likewise launched rocket attacks.

If Palestinians were ever sincere in seeking peace, what have they been doing for the past 50 years?

Why can they not do what Jordan and Egypt and Israel have already done?

Finally to Voltaire you suggest “Rational debate is extremely difficult in such an emotive environment especially when personal insults become the preferred mode”

The simplest way for Voltaire to avoid emotive responses would be for him to avoid using them himself.

I find “rational debate’ is "extremely difficult" with anyone who declares that they believe I ’exemplify ignorance”.

" the land promised by God ..."
So God's been handing out Real Estate?

If I and my ancestors lived in a certain part of what used to be called Palestine but was evicted by an occupying force, I may never be able to go back - but if my mother happened to be Jewish I may "return" to Israel any time I wish, even if I have never actually been there before, and live there as an official citizen without the threat of extradition.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

It's as reasonable as challenging some misguided people as being "Holocaust deniers" while also denying that Palestine ever existed and creating a Warsaw ghetto-like existence for it's population.

It's as reasonable as claiming to be the eternal victim, yet selling arms to internationally repressive regimes and persistantly violating UN directives about illegal occupation.

It's a reasonable as an "eight-hundred eyes-for-an-eye" (and rising fast) ethos.

It's as reasonable as demanding another country have a UN supported democratic election but then kidnapping members of it's Government.

It's as reasonable as a full-scale military action against a country with no Navy, Air Force, Army or way of defending itself.

It's as resonable as calling your own dead civilians "innocent victims" but others as "casualties of war".

It's as reasonable as thinking that this will provide any sort of solution (past the pending election at least).

It's as reasonable as enforcing harsh sanctions without considering that there may be a response.

It's as resonable as claiming not to be indiscriminant in it's attacks while not allowing foreign journalists into the area as witnesses.

Then again, it's as reasonable as believing that a deity will soon be coming out of the clouds on the back of a flying horse and slaughtering all those who don't believe in Him.

Sounds like a win-win situation for everybody doen't it?.

It took 200 years to kick out the Crusaders. 60 years isn't that much really.

Voltaire,

I have to agree with Col. It’s a really bad idea to call anyone on OLO ignorant, especially since you are relatively new. People are bound to retaliate.

Most of us have heard all the "facts" you have presented a hundred times in just as many permutations. Whatever Col and Poly and Gibo are, they are not ignorant of the facts.

You, however, seem to have missed the fact that the average Palestinian is 15.5 years old. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians have not known a world before the First intifada.

This is not to pretend that it is a non-issue. But the emotive language about eviction and dispossession is entirely misplaced.

Richard Falk is not a disinterested party in this dispute. His organisation, the UNHRC has NEVER had a resolution which wasn't aimed at Israel.

What you have also missed is that the Arab League and the Islamic Conference are together the most powerful voting bloc in the UN. Therefore, only those people and organisations sympathetic to this largely undemocratic alliance are appointed and funded.

reprinted from http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8347#131197 >> "In recent years, the Middle East was the subject of 76% of country-specific UNGA resolutions, 100% of the Human Rights Council resolutions, 100% of the CSW resolutions … the UNHRC was widely criticized in 2007 for failing to condemn [ANY] other human rights abusers besides Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestinians,_and_the_United_Nations"

Please let us not pretend that the UN is neutral or unbiased on this issue. This is a fundamental failing of the UN. In particular, the very idea that non democratic countries like Iran, Syria, Libya, Sudan and Somalia can play a pivotal role in issuing UN resolutions leaves me cold.

Wobbles

you say >> "It took 200 years to kick out the Crusaders. 60 years isn't that much really."

I see. Your (final) solution is to drive the Jews out of Israel. Ethnic cleansing is also the goal of the terrorists in Gaza, Tehran, and Damascus. It's called anti-Semitism, and although the word is bandied about too often, you are a certified and certifiable case.

Paul L,
I'm talking about driving the Israelis out of Palestine you clown!

The Jewish historian Ilan Pappe states that the removal of the Palestinians in 1948 was deliberate ethnic cleansing and was based on plans drawn up before 1948 by their Transfer Committee.

This committee was set up to "evaluate the “quality” of the 500 - 600 Arab villages, i.e. to find out which village had fertile land and what was the wealth of village. It was preparing for the day that Israel would take over these villages. And then, after the ethnic cleansing took place, it was renamed and became more like a distribution committee. It had to divide the spoils between the various Kibbutzim movements, and the various Jewish agencies that dealt with Settlement. And so it was an important official facet of the leadership. But it was all conceived by the leader of the Jewish Agency and later the first Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion.".

The Palestinians did not leave voluntarily but were systematically expelled.

Before the war even ended there was an anti-Repatriation policy to prevent the Palestinians returning by erasing their villages and converting them into Jewish settlements or fertile land. Most of those that managed to return did so illegally.

These are examples of many myths that have been peddled as facts in that David vs Goliath struggle that many are trying to suggest - with Israel being the weak and helpless David, when it's actually the Arab "Goliath" throwing the stones.

As for that "anti-Semitism" catchcry that gets bandied about all too easily (like some unique get out of jail free card that no other group can imitate), my criticism is with the policies of the state of Israel, not with the Jewish religion.

Good Ol Wobbles :)

You said:

<<This committee was set up to "evaluate the “quality” of the 500 - 600 Arab villages, i.e. to find out which village had fertile land and what was the wealth of village. It was preparing for the day that Israel would take over these villages. And then, after the ethnic cleansing took place, it was renamed and became more like a distribution committee.>>

Hmmmmm now THAT sounds like the kind of thing our white/british Squatters did for THIS country..... between me and thee..it's a rather familiar and predictable pattern of human behavior.

UN Resolutions are not always what they seem. Countries and interests lobby for position and votes.. in their own interests. Many decisions are not based on justice but the political/religious flavor of those voting.

CJ MORGAN.. said probably the most brilliant thing he has said for many months.. which was:

<<I don't really have a position on the appalling situation in Gaza - both sides have behaved abominably and continue to do so. Neither am I able to offer any kind of solution,>>

BIG TICK to the words "both sides" hoooooRAY.. now..try to tell THAT to the anti-war/muslim/socialists at Melbourne rally's.

CJ..there is a solution though.. as I've outlined in other places.
1/ Both sides stop all attacks/rockets
2/ Hamas renounce the ugly bits of it's charter "Islam will obliterate Israel"
3/ Hamas agrees to no more tunnels/rockets
4/ International monitors to verify.

But that will only solve the immediate violence, not the root causes.

FH.. next time you take your kiddie winkles for a nice picnic there in Sydney.. remember that the land was once Aboriginal :)
Life and history does not always go the way we hope, and it's very diffffficult to speak about 'morality/justice/fairness' without ultimately shooting our own big toe off.

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.. errr *cough*... the rocketing of Israeli kindergartens is not collective punishment?

PS. hmm you don't find a problem with that page 1 of the HAMAS "Mein Kampf"?
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

"Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it just as it has obliterated others before it" ?