Theyre all part of the fall of the great western civilisation CJ.

Its the idolatry, the immorality and sexual perversion and the sacrifice (abortion today) that brings God to rid Himself of evil cultures.

Who could look at what we have built; and say that it wasnt due for a great fall...a great Tribulation?

Women and children no longer walk our streets in safety. Governments are now inept.
Cops only just control things.
Bit by bit the collapse comes.

Do you want to support that kind of a world CJ?
A world of perverts.

Gibo,
You said that the cane as a deterrent worked for you, three points:
• Things are different today than then one can’t reasonably make direct comparisons between what ‘worked for you’ then and what will work now. The key issue is information. Did you know that a child of 10 needs to processes more information (facts) than their grand parents did in their entire lives?
• Take hanging as a deterrent in the 1750’s people were hung for petty theft …it didn’t stop the theft. The mitigating factor was general wealth, ability to survive.
• Information is like a gun it can be used for good i.e. humane destroying of diseased stock or robbing a petrol station.
Also , you need to be mindful of the difference between private rights and public policy. The two have clearly different (usually) conflicting and objectives. What is good for you may have a totally unaccepted result for someone else. Laws by definition are there to cover both the lowest common denominator and the extremes i.e. We all agree that discipline is fine but how do you prosecute the excesses. Take the boxing family whose patriarchal influence was over the top and resulted in murder. Common sense dictates that the situation should never gotten that faras it destroyed several lives

In a day of cowardice and easy fixes many parents prefer to use ritalim than to discipline their children appropriately. This is tragic and boils down to true child abuse. We live in a twisted society where proper parenting is discouraged and replaced by drug taking.

I think that there are (*at least*) two different issues which get mixed up in this debate. One is the values we bring to parenting, the other is the tools we use to discipline.

One of the values which is significant here is the idea of boundaries, do we teach our children to respect others, to respect the rules of their school etc or do we think that children should not need to do that stuff.

Corporal punishment is a tool, one that has been used for a long time and which used in moderation carries with it the benefit of being rapid and not requiring much in the way of extra resources (time out space etc) but which also carries a slightly elevated risk of antisocial behaviours including a tendancy to sexual violence (*when not used in moderation*). It's one of many tool which are available to parents (and used to be available to teachers) but it's not the most effective it's just convenient.

I suspect that most of the problems people attribute to the lack of caning has more to do with parents not teaching or demonstrating appropriate boundaries to children.

Schools can provide some very good behavioural assistance but if it's not backed up by parents then it's unlikely to be effective just as the cane was spectacularly ineffective without parental support for school discipline.(*Little Johnny the bully who's mum came storming up to the school if he got hit*)

The above is actually a quote from Robert from earlier in the thread but it is so good it bears repeating. Additions marked (**).

Gibo, "... So what is the answer to the crime in the schools. We cant let it keep going until a teacher gets killed? "

Gibo I see what you're saying and I share your concern. I can see many children being dealt with by the justice system after they've perpetrated enough mayhem. It makes me very sad, because it's all so unnecessary and it's preventable.

I wish more people could experience time with their children as a joy and a comfort instead of a chore. Most people speak to strangers more politely than they speak to their own children - for example; think about how one would ask an uncouth guest to take their feet off the coffee table ("I'd prefer it if you took your feet off the coffee table - thanks") ; and how one might express the same request to a child in the family {"Get your feet off the bloody coffee table !! ")

I have often been dumbfounded by the schedules that parents create for their children too: every single day is filled with extra curricular activity - music, sport, speech, dance and so on. Drive here; drive there - rush, rush, rush. Families need time together and children need some peace and personal space to think and reflect and occupy themselves.

Maybe people compensate for not spending time teaching their children by challenging the school instead of working with them when issues are raised about their child's unacceptable behaviour. I say the last with some reserve, however, because I know for a fact that some school teachers and authorities are just as bullying as they were in the old days when they caned all and sundry. Administrative bullying has just become more subtle... but even then, there are ways to deal with such matters that still demonstrate a respectful process of enquiry and polite assertiveness.

I suggest that we advocate for a few things:

1. That workplaces be more family friendly; and that parents have more flexible hours and arrangements (such as doing work at home some of the time.)

cont'd

2. I think we should be talking about relationships, citizenship and parenting at school. I know that time is precious, but too many children aren't grasping the current, overburdened curriculum anyway. Better to use time for PT or something for some time for children to explore and think about beliefs; relationships and responsibility. I think that some really engaging and interesting ways could be devised to assist personal development.

3. I don't know how - but maybe parenting courses should be a precursor to receiving baby bonuses and other benefits, or something. It seems odd that in such dynamic social conditions we expect people to automatically know how to parent when clearly many people don't. Many parents are struggling with other awful situations and pressures too - we need to be mindful of that.

4. Here is a book on parenting that is very interesting:

Children are People Too: A Parent's Guide to Young Children's Behaviour, 4th Edition
Porter, Louise
Publisher: East Street Publications
Year Published: 2006

"Should we reward ‘good’ behaviour and punish the ‘bad’? Should we award children stars on a chart when they do as they are told but send them to a “naughty step” when they disobey?

Parent and child psychologist, Dr Louise Porter thinks not! Although popular and sometimes effective in the short term, Dr Porter explains why a controlling approach to children’s behaviour usually results in more work for parents and long-term problems for children. Dr Porter advocates a guidance approach to raising children that will result in their being more confident, considerate, co-operative, and independent."
Price $24.70.

What I like about that book (and also about the STEP programme; though it's much older), is that they seek to help children develop an internal locus of control (ie: personal responsibility for action and for their lives) rather than external locus (such as punishments and rewards imposed by others). I would also recomend some of the material written by Violet Oaklander.

I also like many of the strategies proposed here by other posters. I used a few of them successfully myself :)