The following story speaks of a young school girl allegedly raped whilst on a school outing.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24791883-5006009,00.html

The girls parents had entrusted the girls safety to the school teachers...yet despite the teachers best efforts, the girl was allegedly raped.

Leaping back 4 decades this type of incident would never have been heard of.
So whats the difference?

Could it be that by removing the cane from public and high schools we have in fact allowed the hoodlums and the non-conformists to take charge of the classroom?

Our high school teacher friend tells stories of unruly classrooms where she no longer feels safe...of classrooms where frequently she is subjected to the F word and other curses.

There are no security guards on duty at her school.

Would security guards help control the wilder teenagers?

Would a return to corporal punishment improve the solution...or might we just as well close the schools and do 'school' over the net?
My high school teacher friend say most of the trouble in class is caused by Middle eastern appearance youth?
The youths in the alleged rape were also stated as being of Middle eastern appearance.

Is there a solution to this latter aspect?

Firstly, I think the cane should never have been removed from schools, or homes for that matter.

As to four decadeds ago, the main difference would have been that it was one of the teachers that was the rapist. Just look at our prisons and churches if you don't agree.

As for our muli cutural society, well, you will have to ask the do-gooders about that one. They are the ones to blame for that mess.

Spare the rod and spoil the meat.

Are you clowns for real?

Gibo, the only time I got the cane in school was on one occasion when I was heavily bullied and reported the perpetrator. The headmaster couldn’t be bothered with the incident and just decided to cane both of us, just like that.

I’d never come anywhere near being caned before that and I was proud of it. It had a huge impact on me. Of course it had practically no impact on the other kid, who was a serial bully.

I had looked up to the headmaster as being a very wise man. Of course my opinion of him was shattered.

That was a pretty major event for an eleven year old. About forty years on I’d still like to get hold of that guy (the headmaster, not the other kid) and rip his ruddy nuts awf, if he’s still alive.

It was an instance in which the cane was misused. I suspect that this sort of thing is not that uncommon. I don’t think that those who dish out the cuts are necessarily always level-headed or held to account for their actions.

So if the cane is to be returned, it needs to be accompanied by a good regime of accountability for those who use it.

All three of my children received the wooden spoon to their rear when rebelling against their parents. They are now drug free, in employment or university and are well adjusted. Those who equate loving discipline with violence are fools. The most violent selfish kids and adults are those who have not been disciplined. Today they fill the schools and streets. Dr Spock and his self indulgent followers have achieved the breakdown of law and order in our society that anyone with half a brain could of predicted. It is difficult to believe any parents are stupid enough not to smack their children when needed.

rehctub,
You have done it again. Do really must put your hand up for PM.
This country needs someone like you.

Its time we woke up. Try going to the super market now days.
Kids out of control while parents do nothing.
Dam right the good good doers caused it.

Hey you kids, get off my lawn!

I've raised three children to adulthood - no drugs; no disrespect. They are industrious in work and university; kind and generous.

I could count the number of smacks delivered to them all on one hand. The few that were given were in the interests of their personal safety when they were tots - one tap on the fingers can say a thousand words.

As a parent I aimed for influence rather than control. Discipline means teaching, not just punishing.

Recently a young single mother who is a wonderful parent told me that she raises her little boy to be considerate rather than compliant. I like that.

A child terrorized into compliance grows into an adult whose sense of self is vested in gaining the approval of others - usually the approval of anyone who seems like an authority figure. A scared sheep will follow anyone who seems to have more authority.

I prefer a thinking individual whose sense of self is vested in doing good by others - in treating other people as they expect and want to be treated. I don't think the cane will help.

Gibo,

I was of the generation when the cane was permitted. In fact, I received the can on a few but not many occasions. I totally disagree with it. It is open to abuse. A valium for the teaher.

Moreover, I recall a Mr G., who would tell pupils to come there punishment at a certain time, the send the students away. This little sadist would run through this routine three or four times over two or three days, before canning. Also, I have seen "six" in such a way that it was say over the top, the eighteen years six former was also hysterical from the pain. And in primary, school a Mr McC. missed and scarred the child for life across his face. I can still remember the Mr McC. looking himself in a storeroom escape the boy's father intent on doing McC very serious harm and with good cause, me thinks.

I strongly disagree with corporal punishment and don't believe in its use, full stop-up. Even then I would rather see speeding motors can by police before pupils by teachers.

If you were an orthodox Jew, corporal punishment would blasphemy, as physical punishment is as held to be an assault on their God's creation in the image of the same

Gibo,
With a number of years in frontline community service and dealing with problem I have never seen a case where the cane would have resolved the issue.

In fact I have witnessed several incidents where and when the cane was applied escalate to a far more dangerous situation.
i.e. I’ve seen adolescents start a campaign against a teacher and his family. Like it or not to be able to prosecute the culprits one needs legally determined proof.
In FACT as a consequence the teacher had obscenities written in kero on his lawn, bins turned over, paint bombs on his car and the fire brigade called to his house…meanwhile a house burnt down and two children lost their lives. No one could/was be charged.
Pride righteous indignation is one thing but not if someone else has to pay. What counts in the long run is rectifying the multiple causes.
The broader the law the greater level of enforcement required and the greater the probability of innocent victims.
Likewise there is NO Supportable PROOF that justifies your assertion.
Sadly cries for this type of punitive behaviour is simple naïve and simplistic (a simple answer for a complex question)

Deterrents an punitive punishments are like locks only keep honest people honest.
Likewise, my one and only beef with religious people is that some confuse public policy with personal beliefs.
Tolerance dictate the separation of the two. In NO way am I casting any aspersions on anyone’s personal religious beliefs. The issue you raise is public policy.

Dear Gibo,

Punishment does not deter misconduct.

No child says to himself/herself, while
being punished, "I am going to improve.
I am going to be a better person, more
responsible, generous, and loving."

Children know that punishment is rarely
administered for their benefit, that it
serves the needs of the punishing adult.

The fact is, those who rely on retribution
invite revenge. He/she who resorts to
verbal vilification and physical force
teaches violence.

You can't bash or cane somebody into
being good.

Good discipline is a series of little
victories in which a teacher, or a parent,
through small decencies, reaches a
child's heart.

A true disciplinarian is someone who can
move children from terror to trust.

"Don't children have to be taught
responsibility and respect, if not by
persuasion, then by punishment?"

Ethical concepts such as responsibility, respect,
loyalty, honesty, charity, mercy can't be
taught directly. They can only be learned in
concrete life situations from people one
respects not fears. One grows into virtue;
one can't be forced by punishment.

Teachers and parents who out of desperation blame
and shame, reproach and rebuke, threaten and
punish. These methods not only fail to correct;
they provide the troubled child with
justification for past misbehaviour and with an
excuse for future offense.

Foxy

'Punishment does not deter misconduct.'

Please explain why Singapore is among the safest places in the world to be in. People and property are actually respected. Punishment does deter misconduct with the vast majority of people. Our legal system is pathetic because most parents are to gutless to love their children enough to discipline in any useful manner. Yesterday I watched a young kid throw a huge tantrum and then ran on to a road. The mother's response was to tell him father christmas won't come if he continued. Of course he continued and this modern day parent could not bear for father christmas not to come even if the little brat murdered his sister.

Hi rehctub.
I dont know about the do gooders being responsible for our mulitcultural society.

I thought mostly it was Labor...in the days when Labor still had that old Red flame flickering in their wayward hearts (maybe the old flame still flickers in quiet Labor backrooms?).

I seem to have been on duty as a young Constable in Rockdale, Sydney many years ago, in Al Grassbys days, at the openning of a mosque and Al was there and there was great fanfair at the openning and I wondered at the time just what an Italian guy was doing there as Minister of Immigration and helping a new Islamic powerbase get up and running? It was Labor under Whitlam that openned the door to all of the trouble with Middle eastern folk.

A Labor plot to weaken the spiritual strength of Christianity here?

We wait to see.

Hello runner,

I don't know much about Singapore, so I can't comment
on the city. I do have friends there though, so I'll
ask them, and perhaps let you know at a later date.

I should have explained further I guess, what I meant
by "Punishment does not deter misconduct."

Misbehaviour and punishment are not opposites that
cancel each other; on the contrary, they breed and
reinforce each other.

One high school student related:

"Our teacher gave a long sermon on integrity.
I listened and laughed inside. She herself teaches
dishonesty and doesn't know it. I was late to school
once because I overslept. She said, "That's not
a good excuse," and she punished me. I got the message.
The next time I was late, I made up a convincing
story."

How the blind belief in punishment is passed from
generation to generation is dramatically illustrated in
Willard Motley's book, "Knock on Any Door."
Upon hearing that his son Nick was sentenced for murder, his
father said, "I can't understand it... I always whipped him
when he did wrong."

Nick himself, in his death cell, has no better advice
for the upbringing of his newborn nephew than,
"Don't let what happened to me happen to him.
Beat the hell out of him. See that he does right."

As I said in my earlier post, Ethical concepts
such as responsibility, respect, loyalty, honesty,
charity and mercy cann't be taught directly. They
can only be learned in concrete life situations
from people one respects (not fears).
One grows into virtue; it can't be forced by
punishment.

Runner,
I think you'll find the safest place to be in is a relative assertion.
It's all a matter of how you measure it. Singapore’s attitudes to guest workers is well debateable.
A business contact of mine says that racism and exploitation is rife.
He also says that there are a lot that is not reported.

He also says there is a thriving violent underworld,crime all the good stuff....it all depend on who and where you are.
There is no proven link between the ratan and less crime if that is your point.

Sorry had Al Grassby as Italian. He was Spanish and Irish descent.

Ludwig.
I know the feeling. More than once a mate got me into a canning. Though... I always sort of knew, somewhere inside, I was part of the trouble.

Runner.
A good story:) Im glad your children turned out well. Praise The Lord for the wooden spoon. It never harmed me and Im thankful for the cannings I got.

Bugsy.
What are those kids doing on your lawn?

I see you Pynchme and Oliver
So what is the answer to the crime in the schools.
We cant let it keep going until a teacher gets killed?

My son told a story of an angry Islander boy whom the teacher had told he needed to get away from his bad mates to improve his attitudes. The boy left the school and then rushed back into it and king hit the teacher.
That cant be allowed.

Examinator.
The cane worked for us. Thats what I know.

At Ballina High School our beloved High School Principal, one Roy Hughes, beloved he was when we looked back at his years at Ballina High, would prowl the corridors with cane in hand slapping his leg as he went...looking for kids who had been put out of class. He ruled with discipline and we knew the line not to cross.
Im thinking security guard will soon become the norm as in the USA.

Foxy.
Fear of the cane frequently kept me in line.
It was fearful having to go to the Heads Office and tell him what I had been sent to him for.
I wouldnt have missed it looking back.
I was a rebellious boy who may have turned out worse without that implement of fear.
Roy Hughes had about 3 canes.
Never pick the thin one:)

Firstly, there's some fundamental flaws in the reasoning here.

I hear the old "this would have never happened 40 years ago" argument a lot.

The problem is that it's entirely unprovable. There was less by way of media, accountability, transparency - you name it. These kinds of incidents might have happened.

The truth of the matter is that society never was this glorified crime-free paradise of homemade pies and shiny shillings.

The ugliness was just hidden better. If you really think people were 'better' back then, perhaps you should have a word with Hitler.

My parents managed without using a cane or smacking and I didn't become a thug (although my detractors may disagree).

That being said, my parents were clever ones. My mother used the 'fear' of the wooden spoon without actually using the wooden spoon.
In fact, she made the wooden spoon into some mythical god-like device that would bring about the apocalypse if I stepped too far out of line. All she had to do was smack the wooden spoon on the table and I'd fall into place.

My father had a more mischievous approach. He knew I'd once been zapped by an electric fence, so he simply told me the biscuit jar lid was electrified.

I can still remember being caught trying to get into that jar using oven mitts while wondering why my dad was trying so hard not to laugh.
I didn't get punished for that effort though. He just told me that rubber gloves would be a better bet for avoiding electrical currents.

IMHO it all comes down to psychology - corporal punishment is a blunt, clumsy way of instituting that psychological discipline.

Dear TRTL,

I had a scottish head mistress who was
truly amazing.

She had the knack of making her students
wait outside her office for what seemed
like an eternity, before finally
ushering them into her inner sanctum.

By the time I got inside her office,
I would confess to all of my misdeeds,
without her having uttered a word.

I remember her today with great fondness.
The very first meeting where she was about
to give her first lecture to a full assembly,
she stumbled and fell. The hall roared in
hilarious laughter. The Headmistress rose
slowly, straightened up, and said,
"This is my first lesson to you: A person
can fall flat on her face and still rise up
again."

Silence descended. Then came applause. The
message was received.

She was a true disciplinarian. She used the
force of wisdom to affect events. In a
moment of distress she influenced children
not with threats and punishment but with her
power of personal response. Her words touched
on inner yearnings and turned disruption into
contemplation.

She believed that to punish a child was to enrage
them and make them uneducable.

My parents were similar to yours. I was never whacked.
To me the biggest crime would have been to let them
down. They trusted me. And I felt obliged to live up
to their expectations. A stern look from my father
was enough to express disapproval.

runner,

I lived in Singapore for four years. The country is not as free as crime as you think. And having spoken with sevral Singaporean taxi drivers over the years, I have learned there are several unsafe places. Beauty World on Bukit Timah Road at night, for instance.

Would you accept being canned for a traffic or parking offence? Surely, if corporal "is" to be used it should be aimed at adults not children.

It didn't escape my attention the hypocracy of Australia being helping the US flatten Vietnam, when the school principal used physical punishment to curtail fighting, in the same era. Moreover, say, someone hit me and hit back that would not be tolerated. But what if I were (I didn't, of cause) give a teacher a black eye? Would he/she take as a minor incident? Probably call the Police?

I think neither the cane or the PC pandering or their like, both are pretty destructive in very different ways.

In my last year at school, I wanted to find out what the cane was like, but I'd been such a goody goody, that I had to be quite bad, before I got it. I had expected something much worse. I could see why the really bad kids treated it as a badge of honour, but I'm sure the fear of it kept most inline.

Some really do need it. I raised four kids. Two of them would cry if I roused, or even frowned at them, I had to be really careful. One however, was a real sod. I should have belted him black & blue. I would of course, have had to kill his mother first. She fell for all the PC rubbish, a real true believer.

He, & I'm sure a number of others are lucky to be alive, such was his lack of respect for road rules.

It took 4 years of navy training, & then a couple of years of being responsible for others, before he developed some of the self control a bit of cane would have instilled in him, years earlier.

Yea, bring it back, quick time.

Oliver

you ask 'Would you accept being canned for a traffic or parking offence? Surely, if corporal "is" to be used it should be aimed at adults not children.'
In the vast majority of cases if the child receives corporal punishment little to non is needed as they mature. However those who don't receive corporal punishment turn out to be violent and uncaring.

I have spoken to a large number of criminals who laugh at how easy the system is. They have no remorse for murders, rapes or violence.

In answer to your question I think the cane for traffic offenses is over the top. The punishment must be in line with the crime to be just. The pendulum has swung much to far in the favour of the criminal rather than any consideration for the victims. This starts at an early age where young children continually test out boundaries. By far the most well adjusted and happy ones are those who know their boundaries.

Does anyone know how the Lebanese gangs are going in our schools?

Id be interested.

I sometimes hear 'background' stories about how the Lebanese youth disrupt schools and threaten high school students in Sydney (my boy told a few stories, a decade and more ago).

My high school teacher friend likewise says that the male Lebanese students have very little respect for Anglo women teachers and that they constantly rattle classrooms with macho behaviour.

I feel governments ought to look into this disruption as part of the overall view of the growth of Islam in Australia.

Islam is of great concern to me these days.

Bit by bit we are losing what was good about Australia to a quiet global plan that involves encompassing all other beliefs.

Ok Gibo, This time I am going to back you up to a certain degree.

While I'm not opposed to parents using corporal punishment in general, I am opposed to parents smaking children out of anger. For that reason I wouldn't complain too much if it was banned.

Caning in schools was a different story. The principal had to write the punishment up in a book, it therefore was his responsibility to justify the punishment and this took away the danger of caning out of anger.

Caning as a punishment on its own was useless with the tough brigade however, they used to have competitions to see who could get the most canes in a year. These trouble makers should not be given the satisfaction of getting the cane, but made to do other useful duties such as picking up papers.

On another subject Gibo,
When you were banned for a while on this site, I was the first to welcome you back. The reason I respond to a lot of you comments is because you do make some interesting comments. I will either agree or disagree. I said a while ago that when I disagree with your comments I would do so in a kinder spirit, which I believe I have done. The mud slinging between you and me seems to have started again when I gave my opinion of Benny Hinn, an opinion I still stand by. Check this link:

http://ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/F_SumRpt.asp?EIN=591245704

I didn't go stalking you on the internet. I was looking for information on Jack Burrell who you had mentioned elsewhere. I was interested in knowing about this man, and came across this website due to you mentioning his name in a number of your posts.

It was the Bill Henson debate that sparked the mudslinging between you and me, and I stand by what I said there. As far as my nudist activities are concerned, most Christians I admit would not support it, but the fact is that there are 7 Born Again Christians (That I know of) in the club I go to, out of about a total of 50 people. That's a high percentage in any club outside of church. You don't know of any Gibo, because we don't generally promote our nudist lifestyle out of the club. I would prefer to only have this matter raised in future when it is relevant to the discussion. As far as my attitude to gays, I'm not endorsing homosexual relationships, but rather opposed to the arrogance displayed by most Christians. We must remove the log from our own eye first.

runner,

Thanks for your reply.

I am opposed to corporal punishment except perhaps by a parent in exceptional circumstances. Why I mentioned canning speeders was by way of making a comparison. I assumed you would disagree and you confirmed this.

I recall our entire class being canned (males) or given a 1000 lines (females), when someone in our class (not me, but I still remember who), called Miss Pizet, Miss P*sshead, when her back was turned. No one would dob the guilty party in. What is the greater offense name calling of speeding?

If the can were re-introduced would you agree to gender equity?

I appreciate your point regarding hardened criminals and think the parole process for multiple offenders too lenient.

The problem with the cane is that it was abused by overzealous bully teachers and Principals.

In true Government style, instead of dealing with those who were abusing their power, they got rid of the cane. This not only started a situation where children knew that there were no repercussions for their bad behaviour it also sent the message that bullies and those who abused their power were protected. They are still protected today.

Personally I do believe that parents have a lot to answer for. So many parents allow their children behave in public in ways that should not be acceptable. The problem of course is that there is this idea that we should 'let children be children' but no real agreement or understanding on how children should present and/or act.

Aggressive, rude and bullying behaviour is not my idea of ‘children’ and should not be permitted. Time we set some standards for children so that parents and children have no excuse.

Education – Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP-Empirical.htm

Over to the pro-canners to provide a range of credible empirical research which demonstrates that canning and other forms of corporal punishment for children provide more benefit than harm.

R0bert

This is not a forum for exchange of ideas. It's a comic strip for intellectually under-achievers.

I have always been opposed to caning and I'm glad that there's been enough research on the matter to conclude that corporal punishment is harmful.

I went to school in a country where corporal punishment was banned a long time ago. It was abolished long before I was born so I never knew any child who was caned either at school or at home until I came to Australia.

Compare countries e.g. the USA who still cane and some Nordic or European countries where caning was banned long ago and you'll find that there is a lot less violence in the non-caning countries than in the USA where there's a lot of violence in schools and society.

Runner says, "However those who don't receive corporal punishment turn out to be violent and uncaring."
Look at the sites RObert linked to and you'll see that what you're saying is utter and complete nonsense.

I was never caned or spanked by my parents and I found it totally unnecessary to spank my children or threaten them with violence.
My children have ever used violence either against each other or at school, or in fact not against any creature (mozzies excluded!). They are the most gentle, responsible, considerate and peace-loving teens one can imagine, if you're not a mosquito.

When my son was younger, he even begged me not to vacuum up a spider and even today at 19 he makes sure he rescues all spiders around the house and put them outside.

Many people who are in favour of corporal punishment seem to think the only alternative is to let them run wild. All they need is enough attention and love and understanding. Children make mistakes like we all do, and it's good for them to learn to correct any wrongs e.g. by making it up to people or friends they might have hurt. They need to learn to take responsibility for their own actions.
Instead of corporal punishment, it would be far more beneficial for society if people had affordable access to parenting courses, perhaps as part of pre-natal classes.

SPIKEY SAYS:

"It's a comic strip for intellectually under-achievers."

*SMILE*...now I'm sure Spikeyness...that you've picked on my spelling and grammar in the past :)

Not a good look to be speaking about under-achievers and then saying "Intellectually under achievers" huh?

Me thinks it shold be "intellectual under-achievers" no?

Robert, & Spikey, it was credible empirical research by smug self-satisified twits, probably tenured, comming from our sheltered workshop universities humanities departments that has caused the problem, in the first place. Posts like your last only reinforce the belief among people, who actually do something, that nothing worth while will come from anyone with a degree.

I was lucky, I had all ready been shown, by an amateur motor racing mechanic, just how little I had learnt getting my
B Sc. before I started waving it in real peoples faces.

A couple of years of a fitting apprenticeship, in a steel mill, may help you to grow up, & join the real world. Unlikely, but possible, if you were to really try.

Ooooh, score a point for the Polymath! Pling!

Deduct two for the lack of sense of irony...

>>Me thinks it shold be "intellectual under-achievers" no?<<

This had me chuckling I can tell you..

Polycarp,

Poor old dear. You've been waiting and waiting for a slip-up in my spelling (since you've never been able to find fault with my logic or empirical evidence).

And finally you've got me.

But dear boy, I think you've become over-excited: "Me thinks it shold be 'intellectual under-achievers' no?" Yes, it shold, sholdn't it? I shold beg your humble pardon. LOL

Amusing dialogues aside, getting back to the subject matter I'd like to say Foxy, that your Scottish headmaster sounds like quite an impressive woman.
Clearly, she had mastered the art of discipline.

Because it really is an art, I think. I mentioned earlier how my mother had used the 'fear' of the wooden spoon as a deterrent, but wouldn't actually ever use the wooden spoon on me.

I know some people could point to this and say if you're going to make threats, you've got to back them up - but I think, this is far too simplistic.

See, if she ever HAD actually used the spoon, it would have lost all its power. She had turned it into a psychological device that had far more power than any mere physical punishment.

Ultimately, that's where discipline lies - although there are a few one-size-fits-all techniques, most of the time, the disciplinary tactics need to be calibrated for the child or individual in question. Quite the problem on a societal scale.

And to sum up - did anyone remember that godawful super-nanny program?
That British woman never used smacking and she brought all kinds of terrors into line.
Hell, even modern dog-trainers have alternative disciplines to smacking.

Like I said - smacking is just plain clumsy. There are far better methods of discipline, they just take more by way of brains and creativity.

Something I suspect the proponents of corporal punishment lack. (This is probably getting a little too ad-hominem, but I really believe it. I don't mean it in an insulting sense, I literally mean that many people who are arguing in favour of corporal punishment can't think of better means, because there really are much better ones out there).

I think that there are two different issues which get mixed up in this debate. One is the values we bring to parenting, the other is the tools we use to discipline.

One of the values which is significant here is the idea of boundaries, do we teach our children to respect others, to respect the rules of their school etc or do we think that children should not need to do that stuff.

Corporal punishment is a tool, one that has been used for a long time and which used in moderation carries with it the benefit of being rapid and not requiring much in the way of extra resources (time out space etc) but which also carries a slightly elevated risk of antisocial behaviours including a tendancy to sexual violence. It's one of many tool which are available to parents (and used to be available to teachers) but it's not the most effective it's just convenient.

I suspect that most of the problems people attribute to the lack of caning has more to do with parents not teaching or demonstrating appropriate boundaries to children.

Schools can provide some very good behavioural assistance but if it's not backed up by parents then it's unlikely to be effective just as the cane was spectacularly ineffective without parental support for school discipline.

R0bert

Like Celivia, I grew up where caning had been banned for a very long time. Like Celivia I had never met anyone who had actually personally had experience of physical punishment. My very, very large extended family are all law abiding citizens who work and pay taxes.

How is fear of physical pain supposed to teach respect and taking personal responsibility? Maybe only when you exchange the principal/parent with a punishing God who is not going to allow you into heaven when you've been bad. Fear as the motivator for behaving correctly and responsibly will only work when there is somebody bigger and stronger who will mete out punishment and there is little chance of not being caught.

The very real problem with young people and respect is demonstrated quite clearly by the tone of the likes of Hasbeen. How he referred to one of his children and this child's mother.

It sounds to me that this child was a very obedient child. How did you propose that this child's mother had any authority left with her child when you so clearly had no respect for her and her method of parenting? Did you think your son did not know?

Of course punishment deters misconduct, maybe not in 100% of the cases but certainly in the majority. If there is no punishment then why would people bother to do the right thing when others are taking advantage and getting away with it?

The cane only causes psychological problems and serious anger issues in children when the student feels cheated and believes it wasn't deserved. Again we go back to victimization and bullying by teachers and Principals. Some people in positions of power over children are racists and/or prejudiced and some are workplace psychopaths and just don’t particularly like certain children.

Bringing back the cane cannot happen until they do something about the complaint handling processes designed by the DET as they designed to protect those who are abusing their power in the DET.

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better

The cane is one of those artifacts of conservative ideology that's immune to reason.

If information was scarcer fifty years ago, and we didn't hear of so much youth crime through the media, then obviously there WAS no crime. And why would there be no crime? Because we regularly assault our children for their infractions. Logic.

The irony is that the worst of crimes are committed by kids who live in houses where a caning is a relief compared to the regular violence they experience.

As for the Singapore example, runner, that's a country where long hair, chewing gum and TimTams are illegal, opponents of the government have their lives destroyed for trying to participate in the political process, and journalists get jail terms for criticising the PM.

Is that the kind of society you'd tolerate in exchange for less graffiti? I know you'd like Australia to be a sort of Christian Iran, but I think even you have limits.

Steel Mann.

I only got banned for a week because I got hot headed over you as a 'christian' and your support of nudism. There might have been other antagonism at the time from others supporting immorality.

Try with all of my heart, as I might, I cant balance out nudism with the Gospel and the behaviour of christians.

It just dont fit...ever.
Its not the way Jesus behaved or his apostles.

Out of respect for The Lord and His Will committed christians keep their clothes on.

Nudism, sexual immorality, porn, adultery....all are in the one category with me.

Gibo: << Nudism, sexual immorality, porn, adultery....all are in the one category with me. >>

Which is, of course, one of the reasons that nobody takes you seriously.

Gibo,

Thanks for you reply. I could say more, but I don't want to stir up this hornets nest anymore. I respect your feelings and acknowledge that they are in line with the attitude of most Christians, even though I cannot agree because I know what I'm taking about.

Theyre all part of the fall of the great western civilisation CJ.

Its the idolatry, the immorality and sexual perversion and the sacrifice (abortion today) that brings God to rid Himself of evil cultures.

Who could look at what we have built; and say that it wasnt due for a great fall...a great Tribulation?

Women and children no longer walk our streets in safety. Governments are now inept.
Cops only just control things.
Bit by bit the collapse comes.

Do you want to support that kind of a world CJ?
A world of perverts.

Gibo,
You said that the cane as a deterrent worked for you, three points:
• Things are different today than then one can’t reasonably make direct comparisons between what ‘worked for you’ then and what will work now. The key issue is information. Did you know that a child of 10 needs to processes more information (facts) than their grand parents did in their entire lives?
• Take hanging as a deterrent in the 1750’s people were hung for petty theft …it didn’t stop the theft. The mitigating factor was general wealth, ability to survive.
• Information is like a gun it can be used for good i.e. humane destroying of diseased stock or robbing a petrol station.
Also , you need to be mindful of the difference between private rights and public policy. The two have clearly different (usually) conflicting and objectives. What is good for you may have a totally unaccepted result for someone else. Laws by definition are there to cover both the lowest common denominator and the extremes i.e. We all agree that discipline is fine but how do you prosecute the excesses. Take the boxing family whose patriarchal influence was over the top and resulted in murder. Common sense dictates that the situation should never gotten that faras it destroyed several lives

In a day of cowardice and easy fixes many parents prefer to use ritalim than to discipline their children appropriately. This is tragic and boils down to true child abuse. We live in a twisted society where proper parenting is discouraged and replaced by drug taking.

I think that there are (*at least*) two different issues which get mixed up in this debate. One is the values we bring to parenting, the other is the tools we use to discipline.

One of the values which is significant here is the idea of boundaries, do we teach our children to respect others, to respect the rules of their school etc or do we think that children should not need to do that stuff.

Corporal punishment is a tool, one that has been used for a long time and which used in moderation carries with it the benefit of being rapid and not requiring much in the way of extra resources (time out space etc) but which also carries a slightly elevated risk of antisocial behaviours including a tendancy to sexual violence (*when not used in moderation*). It's one of many tool which are available to parents (and used to be available to teachers) but it's not the most effective it's just convenient.

I suspect that most of the problems people attribute to the lack of caning has more to do with parents not teaching or demonstrating appropriate boundaries to children.

Schools can provide some very good behavioural assistance but if it's not backed up by parents then it's unlikely to be effective just as the cane was spectacularly ineffective without parental support for school discipline.(*Little Johnny the bully who's mum came storming up to the school if he got hit*)

The above is actually a quote from Robert from earlier in the thread but it is so good it bears repeating. Additions marked (**).

Gibo, "... So what is the answer to the crime in the schools. We cant let it keep going until a teacher gets killed? "

Gibo I see what you're saying and I share your concern. I can see many children being dealt with by the justice system after they've perpetrated enough mayhem. It makes me very sad, because it's all so unnecessary and it's preventable.

I wish more people could experience time with their children as a joy and a comfort instead of a chore. Most people speak to strangers more politely than they speak to their own children - for example; think about how one would ask an uncouth guest to take their feet off the coffee table ("I'd prefer it if you took your feet off the coffee table - thanks") ; and how one might express the same request to a child in the family {"Get your feet off the bloody coffee table !! ")

I have often been dumbfounded by the schedules that parents create for their children too: every single day is filled with extra curricular activity - music, sport, speech, dance and so on. Drive here; drive there - rush, rush, rush. Families need time together and children need some peace and personal space to think and reflect and occupy themselves.

Maybe people compensate for not spending time teaching their children by challenging the school instead of working with them when issues are raised about their child's unacceptable behaviour. I say the last with some reserve, however, because I know for a fact that some school teachers and authorities are just as bullying as they were in the old days when they caned all and sundry. Administrative bullying has just become more subtle... but even then, there are ways to deal with such matters that still demonstrate a respectful process of enquiry and polite assertiveness.

I suggest that we advocate for a few things:

1. That workplaces be more family friendly; and that parents have more flexible hours and arrangements (such as doing work at home some of the time.)

cont'd

2. I think we should be talking about relationships, citizenship and parenting at school. I know that time is precious, but too many children aren't grasping the current, overburdened curriculum anyway. Better to use time for PT or something for some time for children to explore and think about beliefs; relationships and responsibility. I think that some really engaging and interesting ways could be devised to assist personal development.

3. I don't know how - but maybe parenting courses should be a precursor to receiving baby bonuses and other benefits, or something. It seems odd that in such dynamic social conditions we expect people to automatically know how to parent when clearly many people don't. Many parents are struggling with other awful situations and pressures too - we need to be mindful of that.

4. Here is a book on parenting that is very interesting:

Children are People Too: A Parent's Guide to Young Children's Behaviour, 4th Edition
Porter, Louise
Publisher: East Street Publications
Year Published: 2006

"Should we reward ‘good’ behaviour and punish the ‘bad’? Should we award children stars on a chart when they do as they are told but send them to a “naughty step” when they disobey?

Parent and child psychologist, Dr Louise Porter thinks not! Although popular and sometimes effective in the short term, Dr Porter explains why a controlling approach to children’s behaviour usually results in more work for parents and long-term problems for children. Dr Porter advocates a guidance approach to raising children that will result in their being more confident, considerate, co-operative, and independent."
Price $24.70.

What I like about that book (and also about the STEP programme; though it's much older), is that they seek to help children develop an internal locus of control (ie: personal responsibility for action and for their lives) rather than external locus (such as punishments and rewards imposed by others). I would also recomend some of the material written by Violet Oaklander.

I also like many of the strategies proposed here by other posters. I used a few of them successfully myself :)

Pynchme,

I once heard a neighbour say to her 13 year old daughter.

"Watch your f###ing language".

Are kids getting worse, or parents getting worse? Funny thing, I didn't hear what the girl said.

>>> Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

Socrates
Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC - 399 BC) <<<<

From personal experience, I was caned at school for something I didn't do. As a child who was never physically punished at home (I was certainly told my boundaries) the shock was worse than the unwarranted pain administered by the teacher. My lack of respect for any authority continues at odds with my fear of authority to this day.

Corporal punishment has never worked, does not work and in no way will contribute towards a peaceful society.

One clear fact that is overlooked is that many young boys now grow up without a father or with a step father. This is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately it is not pc to show that those without a dad are far more likely in end up in trouble and prison. Some step fathers do a great job however having a natural mum and dad produces by far the best outcome.

Pynchme

You make some very good points and I was virtually in love until your horrible twist at the tend with Dr Porter. I am not a fan. I believe your most important suggestion was rightly placed at number one:

”1. That workplaces be more family friendly; and that parents have more flexible hours and arrangements (such as doing work at home some of the time.)”

Unfortunately implementing a relationships course at school will probably just bastardise into some political propaganda exercise which doesn't even resemble anything you might have in mind and parenting courses are only as good as the people who design them. Its not that the ideas aren’t good it is just that I am too cynical to think that it will work in our society.

For books on parenting child psychologist Dr James Dobson would be an author I would be more inclined to recommend.

I believe that it is oversimplistic to suggest that punishments and rewards necessarily lead to an external locus of control. Good behaviour doesn’t preclude good intentions. Children can have both.

That said discipline isn’t everything and developing an internal locus of control and suitable bonding with their father and mother, teaching boundaries and respect, and the need to work within rules when appropriate are all elements that contribute to a well functioning child. Dr Porter doesn’t neglect all of these elements. The main problem is that taking on board her less meritorious ideas without a strong implementation of the more meritorious ideas would just make things worse. You wouldn’t get that problem with Dobson.

Good stuff Pynchme.
Its very hard to know what to do.

I think the first step is wanting to change the way things are in our schools.

For that governments and people must slow down... and catch up with all of our civilisations anomolies.

What are we building and building and building all the time for, if inside the civilisation be build, we are falling into decay and crime.
Children must be taught respect for adults or they grow up that way as young ferals destructive to society.

Im sure christians pray for answers. Prayer changes things. As a christian I know it to be true.

Yet as we christians pray governments must do their part and forget about this great, glorious golden technological age development... and start to look at whats happening.
We are closer to Romes end than we think.

I once heard a teacher say that the cane was only useful on kids that were usually good. The bad kids had competitions to see who could get the most canes, and getting the cane was only an acheivement for them. Punishments need to be varied to suit the nature of the child. Some parents find sending their children to their bedroom a suitable punishment, others find that useless because the kids just play with their toys.

I favour punishments such as picking up rubbish or weeding the oval in lunch hours for the bad kids rather than the cane, but I don't know if this is still allowed either. Suspension is the most useless punishment. This just gives the child a holiday.

Thanks to all who participated.

Im off for the year.

You have to rest sometime.
Merry Christmas.

Ive updated my blog at

http://whatwillbecomeofaustraliajackburrell.blogspot.com/

I hope soon I will have another entitled china invades australia/does china invade australia.

Hiya mjpb. I believe it was Mr. Dodson who said that where a parent needs to get the upper hand they should make the triumph decisive. As a parent he must have balanced his authoritarian ideas with plenty of warmth and care but I think there is a great risk of people using flogging, for example, as a means to a decisive 'victory'.

Once we set up a power struggle, a child has only two choices - to submit, which is demeaning. Or to choose pride as a way of hanging onto a modicum of self-respect. A sufficiently determined child who believes they have nothing to lose; but perhaps self satisfaction or self respect to gain, can light fires; damage property; run away - basically the sky is the limit. I would guess that many children who are already instigators of serious crime would relate any number of 'decisive victories' by their parents.

Where punishment seems warranted I would choose something such as that suggested by Steele.

I vaguely remember an incident many years ago where a young bloke was caught damaging the front of a local police station. There was glass everywhere, paint, graffiti, faeces and/or urination I think. Although charges were laid and the youngster had to appear before a magistrate, during the same time, police and cleaners were sorting out the damage. It seemed to me ridiculous that the police couldn't just put him to work on cleaning up at once. How well he pitched in doing that could then have formed some sort of report for a magistrate re: determining fines and further action.

I think some of that old stuff where action can be taken on the spot by authority figures, would be helpful. Of course, a lot of parents would object and perhaps that's something that needs to change. We need to have and demonstrate some confidence in the authorities otherwise youth are really only acting out the values we teach.

Hiya again mjpb. re: the courses in schools. When you talk about bastardization and political agendas taking over such courses, I take it you mean ideas like the dreaded feminism; lifestyle tolerance and so on? If you're a fan of Mr. Dodson, are you also an evangelical Christian - just wondering.

I'm a Christian feminist myself - far from evangelical. I suggest a middle road then - I would welcome - even require, if it put people at ease; the presence of parents in those courses. It could even be a parent/child bonding thing.

Many years ago I implemented mother and child playgroup events; father/son discovery activities (I wanted to do some father/daughter and mother/son ones too but just ran out of funding and time) and family activity days in my work. We even had evenings where we booked whole theatres and local swimming pools and such. We did amazing things and they were wonderful experiences for all. I don't see why we couldn't sort of blend with schools in a positive way by incorporating some parent/child activities where we talk about values and beliefs; feelings and expression of feelings.

Unfortunately, those sorts of family and relationship building activities are not well funded or even thought important. I think there is a rich lode for discovery and innovation there. Maybe we could start a revolution.

What do you think?

Steele, I so know what you're saying. I witnessed something very similar myself. A mother whose son had been put off a school bus for vulgar language; barked at a school/transport/parent meeting that her children wouldn't Fx&x'in use swear words. As the words left her lips the implication dawned on her. It was very awkward.

Anyway I don't think parents or children have got any worse. In some ways things are much better than they used to be. I think though that many parents are disengaged, and that's a real pity.