I am fine on most of the new IR laws but Union right of entry into enterprises where they may have no members, and the right to look at the books is a step too far.

What place is there in our democracy for an overtly partisan group which may represent nobody in a workplace (the workers decision) to act in this manner.

In my industry, Construction, the various unions have a history of corruption, standover and unethical behaviour. These are the mob going to keep others honest?

The govt. are granting unions a quasi policing role which should be the job of a govt. agency. The govt. is seeking to payback the union movement for its support obviously; but also to give them status not earned, as indicated by a paltry 16% membership in private industry.

Surely this is a job for an impartial agency and not the unions?

dear palimpsest

you have a right to reject anyone entering

no unionist can have rights even police dont have

but then again
did you complain when howhard changes the laws
to your favour?

if not think about why your complaining now

shortly it will be the least of your problem's

again we have the same vilen[john how hard]to who nothing unreasonable was not only expected but delivered

can you even now see he went way to far
selling off THE public assets

allowing govt to lie
giving us extra gst [tax]fuel tax , booze /cigarette taxes[but not wine of course]

lying on inflation figures [by removing petrol and housing from the 'beautifull numbers']

or deeming 2 hours work as full time em-ploy-meant

[lest we forget patricks]gunns[or the gladstone magnesia fiasco ;1 billion gifted to his mates to get their share dividends,

putting public servsants geneous pensions into slush funds
[controled by the boys club

forcing us to prop up the stock market with our wages

forcing us to forgo a deserved wage increase to prop up the same market forces

delivering us into war ,the list of his crimes are extensive
and the worst yuou can find to gripe about is some union slob ,able to be fined or jailed for just trying to do his/her job

i know things are tough

but bro we aint seen all the chickens come home to roost just yet

SO..... it appears all the coalition 'PROPOGANDA' was in fact simply a statement of truth, and more of a "prediction" than propoganda.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24702063-5013871,00.html

"as unions stand to win back rights to demand industry-wide pay deals and access to the wage records of non-members.

WHAT? "ACCESS TO WAGE RECORDS OF NON UNIONISTS"?

Employers are furious that unions - which represent just 14 per cent of the private sector workforce - will get a seat at the bargaining table even if just one worker in a large company belongs to a union.

EMPLOYERS FURIOUS? nooooooo kidding!

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov.au/www/ministers/RobertMc.nsf/Page/Speeches_2008_17November2008-HumanRightsUnderaRuddLaborGovernment-Whatwillbedifferent

Point 23:
"After all, we promised that on coming to government, we would work towards recognising and respecting the human rights of all Australians."

REALLLLLY? that is an absolute outright LIE.

LABOR did not give us fairness it is giving us FASCISM.

Sorry bloke but I too am from the construction industry, and with great pride a union official.
Well first[silence my brothers truth still has value] some union actions in the industry are beneath contempt.
I n fact some bought John Howard lifetime hatred of unions to a head with workchoices.
That also bought about the exile of conservative federal government for two or three terms.
CORRUPTION
!
I exists still in the building industry, in fact it is the fashion, workchoices and Howard did nothing about it.
The ABBC is unconcerned about it, turns a blind eye to it.
Not union evil, but endemic and out of control corruption, un policed thefts.
Much of it payed for by the tax payer on government funded projects.
Right now its Christmas time, from foremen to project managers Utes and 4x4s near scrap on the ground full of illegal bribes, to ensure some one wins the subbys jobs.
Or plant hire/labour hire contracts.
Heard about the MILLIONS of dollars stolen by NSW state rail supervisors and contractors?
It happened BECAUSE it is standard practice in the industry.
I want the right, now and forever to see bad bosses, and a few who make honest mistakes pay proper wages.
Not to be a storm trooper or thug but just have the Right to fight for a fair go.
Make sure the laws are obeyed by both sides my full support but to see low level supervisors in BMW's
And paid plant items near stacked on top of one another sickens me.
Why brand the few idiots in unions for being amateur thieves when the big money is made on the other side?
Few even know what the ABBC is.
But if they get of their bottoms and look at real workplace crimes instead of haunting unionists we all would be better for it.
I for one would never talk to one of them even if the subject was cricket.

palimpsest,

In the context of your example I agree. No members no union access.
But I agree that Union should have access to their members only their members. I would be furious if as a non unionist if my personal details were open to union as I would for any non Govt organization.
However the problem is that neither side in that industry have very good historic track records for good faith dealing.

I do agree that there should be Quasi autonomous Govt Organization that can police practices better. The books should be open only to the Authorized QANGO.

Then there's the issue of the cost.

The problem is the $'s= power= corruption etc.

Many companies engaged in development are so highly leveraged and that encourages cutting corners and a belief that they are entitled to make outrageous profits. And when they fail its often the tradies and investors that lose. Businesses are entitled to a fair profit but what is fair? All I know is that manipulation of the market is obscene. As it's the the average buyer who pays the price.

On the other side we have those who see the mercs etc and then make unreasonable claims often assuming that the business has unlimited cash. I've even heard it said "just because I got bored and left school in early high school doesn't mean I'm not ENTITLED to the same wages as someone who went to Uni! Besides the Boss is rich he can afford it"
Workers are entitled to a fair wage but what is fair?
This conflict helps to inflate house prices... to the point where well the credit crash...Greed on all parts

A comment on the side for "one under god" that mentioned:

"forcing us to prop up the stock market with our wages"

This is incorrect: one always had the option of placing their superannuation funds in an RSA (Retirement Saving Account), which is a totally safe and interest-bearing bank account, unaffected by the stock market.

On the subject itself, I oppose the new IR laws. I find it outrageous that the government would not allow two consenting adults to make whatever agreements between them as they see fit (so long, of course, that the agreement is made by free choice and does not hurt any third party).

Trade unions there is a difference[ quite my brothers truth has value our future awaits]
One day the best will take up the challenges of being different and being better.
Do not hang the sins of idiots on every union.
I would , my union would, never without honest reason inspect the books on non members.
Is it not clear that SOME no all not most but some bosses do the wrong thing?
That some working for such ring unions?
Telling of fear and under payments and refusal of the right to join a union by that boss?
Do not blame all unions for the CRIMES of idiots.
Never in a lifetime of union activism, never did I fight if it was not honestly needed.
Polycarp, at last~
Yes every time some one puts the verbal boot into you I question the need.
After all I once let myself believe your God was my answer.
You Sir are not a Christian, I remember it was the belief in equity that drew me to your phantom Christ.
You seem to think God[ non existent but true for you]see only unions sins.
Read about bosses crimes and understand you blindly see only one side judge not less you be judged.
I judge you hypocrite Polycarp

It would be unwise to add another government money waster to police the building industry.
In NSW we have a wastrel called work cover, worthless and infective it is like a cop on the scene only after the event, trust me they are of no use.
Corruption again, why has no one spoke of my allegations about it?
Because my claims are true.
It was unions that forced work cover to act on bosses printing our green cards in massive numbers, traffic controllers tickets without training or tests.
Millions of dollars avoided in frauds committed by bosses.
Every day is Christmas day for some on site bosses getting bribes, yet we only hear of union crime?
I know of non union phone calls saying the boss hits me, is under paying me, will sack me if you mention me.
Who will fix these things if I do not have the right of entry?
If a boss is doing the right thing why should he fear me looking at his books?
If work cover cared why did I have to fight alone to get personal protective equipment for workers who had to buy it?
Against work covers own laws?
Why did those victims sign a EBA that broke every law?
Saying the HAD to work 150 hours before its issue, while every single site says you can not enter the gate day one without it.
It took 3 months to fix it.
Who looked after that labour hire firm?
who cared about its victims?
only one union official even thought about them, not work cover.

Belly,
Your comment merely indicates the flaws in Work Cover as it exists now. these can and should be changed.
I have a son (25) currently suing work cover. He went from a high paid highly skilled career to now all he has to look forward to is a painful life on minimum wages, so much for 4 years of tertiary study. My observation is was Both a lack of training/expertise of the case managers and the motivation of business to reduce their liability. All these could've be fixed earlier and cheaper if work cover had not had an hyper-sensitive 'munchkin' who simply following a checklist.
Just because the baby's bath water is dirty one doesn't throw the baby out too.

Examinator I agree with your feelings about work cover I can never agree it can be saved.
Are you aware of the state rail crimes in NSW?
Another government failure, 20 times at least work cover has , just in my workplace, failed to act on a case that was open and shut.
Are you aware that a death of a truck driver at work on his factory floor our roads is not investigated by work cover?
Maybe the only workplace death not investigated by them?
if work cover truly had concerns about workplace unions could not find fault and would play no or little part in safety.
Real life story for you, I took a call, years ago from smaller size road construction crew, we have no toilets no lunch sheds and are under paid.
My life was threatened after I asked boss to take a tour with me hatred threats true.
I called work cover , he visited not with me but that boss!
Said he wanted an unbiased talk to the crew.
IN FRONT OF THE BOSS they all said they did not need sheds ext, work cover laws said they must have it!
After my heated talk that work cover inspector met me and those men of site after work.
Each worker spoke of the fear of the boss, all said they must have those sheds and a first aid box.
I fixed it he fixed it and stood as we voted no confidence in work cover.
I got no union members from it they got clean sheds.
work cover? do not make me laugh.
Regulate us police us but give us rights to get work cover our of the office and bad bosses back on track, bosses not just workers call unions to fix shonky things in the industry.

We have the world run by Facts. Always changing always playing chatchup. Never focused on one point, drifting like a ship like without a destination, driven by every new fact to come to the surface.
LOST

HE ELPPP

Get a vision {destination} [focus point]. Write it down, break it up into goals [how do you eat an elephant, one mouth full at a time chewed properly] of bite sized portions and never lose site of your destination. Choose TRUTH not facts. Truth is eternal and became flesh. Facts are the opiniom of the flesh and are always changing like the weather.

Richie ten I think you are talking of God?
But can not be sure
What does that post say?
How is it tied to unions rights/workers rights?
As no God exists, none, I think we need to understand we must fix our own problems.

Dear Belly,
My specilist told me I would have another stroke and it would kill me because it was in my genes. Which lead to the black dog
[Depresion]. 28 years ago after a marriage break down I met a man called Jesus who has become my best friend in good times and bad times. He is not a figment of my imagination but the Truth manifest in flesh. He is the focus of my life and always brings me back on track. 28 years ago I knew nothing about him but had a lot of preconcieved ideas, mostly wrong. Today my future is in his hands and I feel it is much safer than in the hands of man because I know me and am a man and I know I let me down when all does not go well with my soul or my body and the black dog starts to bite. Seek Truth and Life never opinions of men and let me know where it leads you.

Sorry Richie but you can not get away with that.
The black dog is no stranger to me.
And I deal with others, so very many others who have it as a companion for life.
Fact is you are not the first to find your God, so many more than you or I can count have done so.
I found your God a very long time ago, the straw I clutched for, I no longer believe, not at all.
Richie I do not challenge your right to believe ever, but I too have rights.
Thread after thread is about God, if your God is the answer to every thing why do people like you have to hide in threads that are unrelated?
I wish you well in your wrestling the black dog, life belongs to you do not let your self down smile every day never give in.
My passion no longer belongs to a dream I fight every day, each and every one, for a fair go for workers at work.
To prove that a trade union is no different than the master builders or the hundreds of bosses unions we never find fault with.
Be happy friend.

Dear Belly,
I am trying to tell you simply without Jesus [God, Everlasting Father, the Word, the Truth, the Light, the Way, the Life and Love] all men are lost and don't even know it. Do you know what a benchmark is , [point of reference] .You are lost without it. The church system of the day killed Jesus because he did not comform to their world view. Very little has changed. The religious people and the nonbelievers reject his word and replace it with their own ideas and opinions as Truth. At the centre of christianity is relationship with your father. He is eternal or outside of time amd he doesn't change while we are subject to change for we only have an alloted life span, the same as a grain of wheat.
If you had to choose a god would you prefer Hitler or Jesus most people on this forum believe Hitler is gods representative and feel justified in their rejection of Jesus, so never get to have a special relationship with their father.
The conservatives believe their opinion is the right one and the Socialists believe their opinion is the right one. I happen to believe that nobody except Jesus is right all the time. As the Pig said to the chicken " for the farmer to have his bacon and eggs, yours is only a parcial commitment but mine is a full commitment ". Only Jesus has paid the price with a full commitment to give an opinion.
So without the Truth it is not going to work for it is only mans opinion and as they say that's evolving.

Richie ten as you can see the thread is now dead you killed it.
Most will avoid you, and me after such a few posts from you.
Surely this is also true in your real life?
Statements like most who post here are fans of Hitler?
You do understand how truly wrong that is surely?
Do you Richie understand why so much is spent on advertising?
It is to get people to buy or look at your product.
Freind you turn more away from your God than you can ever bring to him, you must consider why you interrupt conversations written or spoken, to sell something people did not ask for.
You are an distributor of unwanted spam.
Plenty of opportunity's exist to post in Christian threads here.
Yet re read your first post here, why did you do it?
Richie note I explained to you I have no intentions to let a non existent God take up my load in life, I alone must carry my load, you have my sympathy ,while you mean well you do greater harm to your cause.

Back to the threads subject.
On Monday or Tuesday, the Sydney morning Herald printed a story titled close too but maybe not word perfect
Julia's Gilards IR reform is a fair cop.
It is not from the union movement or the bosses.
It is the product of that papers financial editor, sorry I have no link.
I never thought I would need it.
But while not everything in that story made me happy it is fair and balanced.
I have a view it is the real future like it or not.
While some unions built on industrial ware fare will struggle, others will face the challenges and do very well.
The story printed out in 3 a4 pages 108 copy's went on construction lunch room tables this week, feedback said few even knew IR changes are before the house.
That will change I am almost sure before the election date Parliament will be dissolved ,both houses, an early election is a very real chance.
This issue could be the one bring it on.

OK, back to the thread's subject:

Suppose there is a small family business, or perhaps 2-3 friendly families that jointly and peacefully operate a business and employ only family members.

Suddenly knock-knock, the unions are at the door, demanding entry to your private premises and to inspect your books. If you refuse, you can be criminally prosecuted, or they could bring the police along to force their way in.

Doesn't this send shivers down your spine? or did I misunderstand the new laws.

Even without this clause, doesn't the fact that a business-owner and his/her employees, both grown-ups, are not free to jointly agree between them on work conditions as they see fit, doesn't this alone send shivers down your spine?

Come if the employer is doing the right thing why be concerned?
Try being the young woman in a town not far from here, one of thousands, who gets 5 dollars an hour cash in hand.
What tax breaks is the thief who employs her getting? after slave wages he pays.
And do not let your fantasy family become too real, if it is so what gains for a union to gate crash?
not membership surely?
Read the well put together story, get some understanding of the subject.
Do not tilt at non existent wind mills.
And above all KNOW unions only enter such non union firms by request of workers on site 95% of the time.

Belly,

You are suggesting that good people all over the country, that live happily together should suffer because of some thieves over in your town abusing some silly young woman who is willing to put up with them.

Why would unions break in? once allowed it could be for 100 reasons, for example:
1. to spy on your company on behalf of a competitor.
2. to harass you for some unrelated personal matter.
3. to coerce your workers into joining their ranks and paying them fees.
4. to check on your security systems, so later they can instruct burglars how they can get in and rip you off.
5. yes, requested by an employee as you suggest: the owner's teenage daugther who is employed there was not happy about not being allowed to use her father's car after midnight, so she called the unions (anonymously) in order to punish her dad.

If it so happens in your town that a young woman is willing to receive slave wages, then:

1) She needs to be educated that this is not necessary.
2) She should get help to solve personal/psychological problems that cause her to accept such conditions.
3) She should receive an unconditional minimal-sustenance support from the government, so she never has to accept such a job just because she is hungry.

In any case, the responsibility for her welfare is the government's, there is no reason why any individual employer should bear that burden and of other social issues which they have nothing to do with. As a tax-payer, I am most happy to take up this responsibility for the above-mentioned young woman (even increase taxes if necessary - that's what they are for).

Richie ten are you still around?
Just looking for some rational debate.
That young woman does not live in my country village.
She has appeared in other threads in my post she is on social security.
She is one of thousands who have found a way to both be a victim and a thief, get some more for nothing.
Her boss enters her wages as $25 an hour and books her in for 4 hours a week.
She actualy gets 30 hours a week at $5 an hour.
She knows he gets tax breaks and commits a crime too.
unions are quite rightly angry with both of them, we became aware when one girl left and called us.
Right of entry is a fundamental, if you are doing nothing wrong unions Can not hurt you.

Belly, the situation you describe is of a criminial nature, of two people who steal from the commonwealth, so why re-invent the wheel? it is a matter for police, which can get a judge to sign a search-warrant, investigate the matter and arrest the couple.

If police is unable to handle this because it is under-staffed, then its budget needs to be increased. What you are suggesting instead is to give unions the power to be legislators, judges and executioners all at once - and this you even call "fundamental".

What is fundamental is human-rights, your right live your life without interruption, so long as you do not hurt others, including your right to enjoy your peace, free of intruders on your property.

Any hooligan can start a union, and as you suggest, someone registered as belonging to "the union of clowns and stage-magicians" could come knocking on my door: "G'day, I heard you run a small business from your home, I came to check whether you hide any employees under your bed. If you refuse me entry, you will be charged and go to jail".

Then you try to comfort us by claming that "if you are doing nothing wrong unions Can not hurt you"... nothing wrong by whose standards? the standards of the union mafia of course!

Welcome to 1984...

Any respect I had for you just went out the window.
Hooligan?
Any hooligan can start a union?
Any idiot can start a business, luckily most are good honest people but some are not, yes some unionists too.
Go to the police?
Come be realistic.
A boss, known for both under paying and abusing his workers, truly foul abusing and threatening them.
Told about his third person in one week, he intended to kill them and throw their body into a river.
I know this is true,he did it in front of me.
Police said? WAIT FOR IT!
We can not take action until he does something.
In the case off the two committing a crime against social security, remember unions got involved by invitation of a workers.
Who named both, who had committed the same crime, but would not go to police federal or other.
I informed social security.
They have done nothing.
Your truly offensive view unions are criminals bosses saints is not worth considering, how could any one take you seriously?

Belly,

I think you got the wrong impression:
I did not refer to existing unions, or suggest that current members are hooligans, but to the kind of unions we are going to have if these proposals become the law.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. If unions get such powers to enter and search any premises at will, something that even police does not have, then many criminals would be eager to become "unionists".

Just imagine a crime gang - one member will become the "boss" and start a circus and two others will become his employees - say they call themselves a "clown" and a "magician", then those two start "the union of clowns and stage-magicians" and now they have legal powers to break into any premises, be it private homes or even a police station...

I appreciate the good work that you do as a good citizen and am sorry to read about your experiences with the police and social-security. If this is indeed the case, then it must be corrected, using all democratic channels, but not at the expense of the honest majority. I understand that you are upset about certain crimes, but creating your own and unaccountable law-keeping militias is not going to bring about more law and order - quite the contrary.

Break in? do you truly think unions break in?
If true? is my story true? to lie to prove a point would only prove me worthless.
Tell you a few things, as I walk into lunch sheds, to talk to union members every week.
I always say a few things the same way, one is tell me what you really think, not what you think I want to hear, only the honest truth has value.
This will get me in trouble, but only the depth varies I am always in trouble,
I despise EXTREMISM, RADICALISM, and lies told to unionists by SOME unions who fit that description.
Have a look next Saturday at the fathers and mothers of the kids at soccer or any sport.
Watch the family's on the beach on Sunday, try to pick the union members out.
You will not be able to do it.
Only in the heads of the very few do comrades exists, brovers are few.
But my members have only one head, carry no guns, are my mates,and if I give them the respect they deserve ALWAYS, will repay me many times.
Unions there is a difference.
The future is not assured for some but you can bet some lead by youth with great promise are here to stay.
And while this old bloke knew a far different past in the movement attempts to isolate all unions from our members has failed.
Can you think in wider terms? do you know just one boss who needs watching?
The thing I love most about unions is they, the good ones, care for those unable to look after themselves.
Yes many can look after themselves but who looks after those who can not?
The thread is about one issue.
Why can you not see it was never intended unions break and enter?

Belly,

I believe you that you are a good guy.
You help your friends and do the right thing as union-leaders are supposed to do. I believe you that you will never abuse your position.

My question to you is what controls are there to prevent the new law from opening the flood-gates to criminal elements who call themselves "unionists", but are not as good-intentioned as yourself, holding a union-card, either of an existing union or a new union that they form for this purpose, giving them powers over the community that even police does not have?

The body that is supposed to stop crime is the police. If they are not doing their job well, then the police must be strengthened and shaken up.

Dear Belly,
I say it again, we are all corrupt if the price is right.
Jesus left 2 very clear instructions.
1 Put God first place in our life.
2 Love one another.
So simple but the hardest thing to put into practice.
When we buy a machine we get the makers instructions on how to use the machine. All denominations were started by sincere men to expand the Kingdom of God and as time passed men replaces Gods agenda with their own kingdom building. Paul and the church of Rome. Martin Luther and the lutherin Church, John Wesley and the methodists, Booth and the salvation army, the church of Ephesus ,the church of Pergamos, the church of Thyatira,and the church of Sardis. Just a few congregations that started out to build a heavenly kingdom and lost their focus and have gone on to build large earthly kingdoms, Some devoted to wealth and power others devoted to good works but ignoring the first instruction, most good people individualy But ALL sinners in need of a saviour. So Belly if the church of believers loses sight of the target and does not practice what we preach how in the hell do we ever expect the world to want what we have.
Simply put without the makers instructions what we end up with is a poor substitute for abundant living. One of my favourite verses is proverbs 1-20 wisdom cries out in the streets. If God has used a donkey in the past to bring his word surely he can use a man as a vessel. After all it is only words spoken with faith or out of fear and lack. Which seem to be predominant at the moment.

Lets leave Richie ten till last, in answer to your questions.
Unions still have to notify a visit 24 hours in advance , giving the reasons for the visit.
Criminals find other ways to thieve more than unlikely any one would impersonate a union official for the purpose of crime.
Now do not get me wrong, some thankfully not any one I know do impersonate union officials, unfortunately getting paid for it.
Fact is , many will not like me saying it, unions are on the brink of great changes.
These new IR laws are balanced finely, not every thing I wanted , or some bosses want.
Good unions always face such challenges and do well.
If I could live for 20 more years, unlikely, I Know what I would see.
Moderate unions will have grown to be the biggest and by far the best.
Radical will have shrunk or learned to follow members not lead them.
I have no fears of unions dieing, we will always have a place in most workplaces.
Richie mate, be content that I am bound for hell, and without fear.
I see great rules to live by in every religion, as an ex Christian I understand some truly good people share your dream.
I want to handle my own baggage, try to never hurt any one unless I must, know it is better to give than receive.
But freind for me all Gods are made by man, proof of the goodness in some men but inventions never the less.
I want to be involved in every minute of life not place my life in the hands of your dream.
regards

Dear belly,
You have been weighing heavily on my heart for days. Your outlook on life is the same as my father. Am presently reading a book called Gods big idea in which the author expands on ideas. Death doesn't kill them. Every thing we know and have and believe is the result of an idea. Ideologies live on no matter what we think to become philosopies that run the world. The only way to defeat an idea is to replace it with a better one and change your mind. I chose to believe Love over all other ideas.
Have a good xmas break and enjoy quatity time with family
God Bless Richie 10

Richie 10 you are a nice person.
I have an understanding of the simple fact many Christians are.
So very many, some who post here think they are Christians.
I know you are one,a good one.
Understand however I stand firm in my belief, right now my health is troubling.
Do not pray for me Richie its our fate to one day die.
But no last minute re conversion for me.
No graveside appeals, I if and when my time comes am content to face the fact of death.
I use you as evidence, proof of a basic goodness in mankind.
In my view the invention of every God from that first rock to Christ Buddha or the rainbow serpent we see in every storm proves man is great.
I will not, now or ever separate man by race or religion, we all given the same chances have the same potential.
I will have a good Christmas, thanks for your wishes,
It will no longer be the huge family one I once had.
2 brothers and fraction of my family one wife, not mine and one child.
But I am content.
As some get rude in talking to Bible bashers, me too at times, I too sell my product with pride,and cop the hatred and abuse.
My product is new unionism, conservative non threatening trade unionism.
I know beyond doubt, none, the future belongs to only the best, the honest unions,
Those who get closer to membership and under stand honesty and service are the only things that matter.
maybe we both sell products few want to buy but my reality is man is great, however we became other than star dust we turned out alright.
Have a great Christmas.