Ah, my mistake boaz. Instead of filing this under your 'muslims are evil' pursuit, I should have filed it under your other one, the 'how can I persuade people the bible is all important' category.

Anyhow, allow me to break this down to the basics.

Okay, so lets say we were going with something non-theological, say, lawyering or doctoring or whatever.

Say I state that I believe that the kidneys are located somewhere around the gut area, and the heart pumps blood. Because I know this, I state I'm a doctor - what's to stop me?

Well, the truth of the matter is that we have human agencies which can establish the validity of my statements. Qualifications.

Ultimately, there are only qualifications which are assessed by the public as having merit or not. If I am cleared by the AMA and have a medical degree from a respectable university, then yes, I could call myself a doctor.

Fact of the matter is, most Australians agree with this system, and respect that the AMA and our universities make reasonably qualified doctors.

Theologically speaking however, this all because irrelevant, because you're talking about fairytales that are thousands of years old.

You keep positioning yourself as some kind of expert. Who respects this? Clearly not the people here. There is no consensus, you can't position yourself as knowing more, so you certainly can't keep acting with such arrogance and condescension. You speak of people who are misguided on faith, but there is *no* guide, there is no verification of the bible. Thus, there can be no strict interpretation.

P.S. compared to doctoring or other professions (perhaps not lawyering), theology's about as useful as a nine-arsed camel.

Evo :) I don't rely on the Lord to protect me in the sense you mean.. my spinning back kick serves me quite well there:) see..I can poke with a stick tooooo....

Foxy.. it took me by surprise that joke... and about 1 minute to recover from the laughing fit :) It's a goody.. a keeper.

TRTL.. I'm seeking to develop one major principle here.

IF...you believe xyz
THEN...(you know.. the simple computer language stuff) your behavior will quite likely reflect that belief.

ELSE.. maybe you don't believe what you say you do.

ENDIF.

If I believe that

a) Unprovoked Assault is evil
b) I see a man assaulting another person
c) I am lawfully allowed to make a citizens arrest.

It's quite likely that I'll try to intervene and hold the perpetrator until police arrive.

On the other hand. If I believe:

a) Unprovoked assault is evil
b) I see a man assaulting another
c) The police don't give a damn and if the do at all they will punish ME for causing a problem.

I'm less likely to intervene unless I can accurately size up the perpetrator in terms of my own capability to deal with him.

If Christians believe

a)-Persecution of Christians is evil and Satanic.
b)-Christians have been authorized by Jesus to stand up for themselves by gathering weapons and forming 'hit squads' then.....
c)-Jesus had clearly arranged for the murder of the Chief Priest or other enemies
d)-That we are more answerable to God than man or human law.

Of course you could expect people like Hilali to end up in a coffin by 'unknown assailants'.

But if you remove b) and c) from that list..and substitute

b) Pray for your enemies and bless them.
c) Do not resist one who is evil.

Don't you think the outworking of the faith might be different?

David. I have a ring tone for you, called the dead terrorist! and it sounds a little like you at times.

It goes like this!

SILENCE! I kill you! SILENCE I kill you!

You really wouldn't hurt someone in the name of a god, would you?

The rest of us are past that stone-age BEHAVIOR.:)

EVO

Jehovah's Witnesses does not follow the teaching of the mainstream Christian Churches that most Christians on these forums belong too. Jehovah's Witnesses have some differing beliefs and some of these beliefs can be challenging to Christians. I don't believe in cutting down other religions to make mine look better, however I'm glad that I don't belong to a religion that requires me to spend almost all my leisure time knocking on doors. Depite their differences there are some sincere Christians within the Jehovah's Witness religion.

Dear Steel... thankyou for making my point.

They (JW) knock on doors because of....their....BELIEF..which, if you dig down deep enough, you will find connects to their idea about "salvation". Door knocking is the 'behavior' which fits their belief.

We must face at some stage that there is a need to criticize other faiths/ideologies from within our own. Political parties do that daily.

TRTL.. you said "You keep positioning yourself as some kind of expert"

How much of an expert does one need to be?

The simplest method of determining 'yes/no' on that score is to debate a real issue. I'll suggest "surah 9" in the Quran as it does fit into this topic.

1/ Did Mohammad simply 'decide' to end his own obligations to any treaty he had with Mushriks/unbelievers?
2/ Did he simply 'decide' that those who had treaties, but had not ratified them in a particular mosque were thereby suspect and not worth the papyrus they were written on?
3/ Did he or did he not, give a time limit for the 'Mushriks' to get out or get killed (unless they embraced Islam)
4/ For those who did not embrace Islam, did he or did he not declare that ALL of them found would be killed?

There are no if's buts or maybe's..he DID or he did not. If he DID, then that forms part of his EXAMPLE where surah 33:21 claims

<< You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah.>>

If you don't see this as a problem ask yourself this.

IF the local Baptist Church told you "You have 3 months to become Christian, if you don't, and we find you, you will BE KILLED without mercy" THAT...is what the non Muslims faced from Surah 9.

Roll that around for a bit...and then do some serious thinking.

Dear Polycarp,

I have a problem with you picking out various
verses and not giving a full explanation of
their historic context.

For example Surah 9 - as quoted by you gives
a totally different picture to the one I
managed to scroll up, where God instructs
Muslims to fight back, during a time of war,
but not to trangress and remain just during
battle. "Only if the enemy treacherously denounces
his treaty ... attack, but give time before the
declaration of war."

This was during a war in the defense of their
homeland and their Faith.

And why go to Surah 9. Why not start with the
verses 2.190-2.194
The Battle of Badr. Which were the first instructions
from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for
fighting.

I just don't understand your behaviour. You have to
give a full account of something - on its own merit,
and not according to your own wishes.

Also you continue to paint Mohammad's teachings are
"horrific." Yet how could you know what they actually
are. You only select what suits your purpose.

Mohammad's teachings are included in what is called
Hadith. Yet the Hadith is recorded in many books, and by
many people, not all of them agreed upon by all Muslims.
There are thousands of Hadiths.
How do you know which are the "authentic" words of Mohammad.

You keep pointing the finger at Muslims, but is the
Spanish Inquisition something Christians should be proud
of? And the Crusades? And did any of the Christian churches
and/or their leaders try to stop the Jewish Holocaust?

You need to keep a balance in your own thinking
before you point the finger at other religions.

You can always find bad things in anything - if you set
your purpose in life to look for them.