CJ, thanks, that's ever so funny!

I wasn't sure whether he'd ever admitted the name change and I couldn't be bothered to find out.
You know, it's spiritual torture to have to go through his posting history to find out.

David f,

Although some of us may present as being discourteous on threads conducted by DB (aka Polycarp)it wasn't always that way. Indeed for my first two years on OLO I afforded him the courtesy and respect I believe all people are entitled to. However respect, in order to be given, must be earned. When it is met with lack of respect for race, ethnicity, creed, lifestyle and feelings it withers away.

I also applaud your posts and applaud your even-handedness and logical approach.

You will find however, that every argument, point of undeniable logic and truth will be ignored the very next time he starts yet another thread on this exact topic, to which every concievable response possible has already been made to him and ignored by him.

These days I largely ignore any threads started by Polycarp but admit curiosity and incredulity propelled me to this one - it seemed impossible that he would have the effrontery to roll it out yet again.

BTW, anyone else have a huge chortle at the heartfelt wish BD expressed that people would learn some history?

And, by the same token, anyone else repulsed by the idea of "taking a chunk" out of him? Think I'll leave such delights to passing labradors.

David F,
While not disagreeing with the bulk of what you say I find this last comment misleading:
“One very good part of Islamic history is the Golden Age of Spain when Islam was in control, but Jews and Christians were free to practice their faiths and practice whatever occupation they liked. Christianity can point to nothing similar”

Islamic Spain was never as -enlightened- as many people have been lead to believe.
“(F)ree to practice their faiths” came with many caveats:
-there was death for blasphemy
-there was death for apostates & anyone who gave them sanctuary, and
- the dhimmi rules imposed on non-Muslim generally, gave them a second class status which would make the plight of blacks in pre-civil rights USA look positively egalitarian.

You mentioned Turkey; the level of self-criticism in Turkey re issues from Constantinople to Cyprus remains miniscule. The ruling orthodoxy in Turkey ( & much of the Middle East, for that matter) remains very much ‘our side is/was right, all wrongs/corruptions stem from the other side’.

On the other hand, it would be hard to argue that there has been a dearth of criticism re Christianity, or Western positions, generally, in the West

One of the points that Polycarp makes -which is often overlooked in the haste to bury him- is that for a long time now, the dominant narrative in the West re such periods as Islamic Spain, The Crusades & Colonialism has been overly favourable/accommodating to Islam.

Dear Horus,

Had we but years enough and time, but we are limited to 350 words. My statement about the Golden Age in Spain was meant to compare it to conditions in Europe when Christianity got control - not multicultural, twentieth century Australia.

There are very different narratives for the Christianisation of Europe and the Islamisation of the Middle East, North Africa and Spain.

In Norway St. Olaf gave the pagan Norse the choice of the bloodeagle (one’s ribs were removed, and the lungs were spread out.), exile or Christianisation. Although he was not the first Christian king of Norway he is the patron saint because of his effectiveness in making Norway Christian.

Charlemagne treated the Jewish population of his domains well but gave the pagan Gauls the choice of Christianity or beheading.

Lithuania was a multicultural society with a pagan monarchy. It had a mixed population of pagans, Christians, Jews, Karaites, Muslims, Tartars etc. Like other medieval societies there were three estates – nobility, peasantry and a small middle class of merchants and artisans. There was no restriction of ethnicity or religion with regard to entry into the nobility. There were a series of Crusades against Lithuania led by the Teutonic knights for no other reason than the refusal of Lithuania to become Christianised. Much of the Lithuanian population was slaughtered during these crusades and Lithuania finally gave in and became Christianised in 1386.

With the exception of Ireland the Christianisation of Europe from 371 when Rome became Christian was accompanied by similar violence.

In contrast the Muslim conquests created dhimmi or second-class citizens. However, for the first few centuries Islam regarded itself as a religion only for Arabs and conversion to Islam of the subject peoples was discouraged. This was because the Arab ruling class paid no taxes, and conversion to Islam freed a person from tax.

Several centuries later Islam became a missionary religion but originally their missionising was confined to Arabia.

In the 14th century Islam entered its Dark Ages and duplicated some of the Christian pattern. Before then the narrative favoured Islam.

Dear Horus,

You are correct. There has been great criticism of Christianity in the west, and the Muslim world has been mainly undemocratic with severe restrictions on free expression. However, the Muslim world may be becoming more open, and the western world may be becoming more closed. I think the current economic stress will produce closed minds in a climate of fear and chauvinism.

Even though Israel publishes more books than all Arab nations combined there is a small population in the Islamic world beginning to write about their history and start a process of self-examination. Naguib Mahfouz in Egypt and Orhan Pamuk of Turkey, both Nobel laureates, are examples of writers who have shown a spotlight on their own societies. Mahfouz received death threats for opposing the fatwa against Rushdie and supporting peace with Israel. Nevertheless, he died of the illnesses accompanying old age. Pamuk has had criminal charges pressed against him by the Turkish government because of his comments on the Armenian genocide. He is now living in the United States. At a conference in Brisbane I talked to a Malaysian Muslim and his wife. He told me that he was really an atheist but could not say so in Malaysia without losing his job, alienating himself from his family and possibly being in danger of his life.

There is quite a large population in the west that rejects modernity and refuses any process of self-examination. One of them is Sarah Palin, the current Republican candidate for vice-president of the United States, who is a creationist and launched into a screed of American triumphalism during her debate with Biden aired on Australian TV. I fear a climate where somebody like her gets nominated for high office.

Although Polycarp has been criticised for refusing to acknowledge what seems obvious to most people who post on OLO he continues to post and engage. However, I think there are many with similar views to his who have absolutely no contact with those who disagree with them. I hope he continues to post. As you pointed out he can make valid points

Dear Romany... you_said:

"I also applaud your posts and applaud your even-handedness and logical approach."

and David F says things like "The_Holocaust_was _applied_Christianity"

Now.. have you heard that saying "Stands out like dogs thingies" ? If you cannot see the lack of even handedness in Davids posts, then I hardly think anything will ever persuade you of it.

David mentions "The GOLDEN AGE in Spain"... what he leave OUT.. is how that 'enlightened Islamic power' treated NON Muslims OUTside of it's boundaries. Here is a classic example.

First there was no 'Golden Age' of Spain under the Muslims.

711 Moors invade and defeat Visigoths at Guadelete (Emirate Period 711-756)
714 Most of the Peninsular had been occupied by the Moors
718 Count Pelayo invades from the north defeating Moors at Covadonga
722 Moors defeated by Visigoth Prince Pelayo at Covadonga
724 Garcia Ximenes founds Sobarbe (future Kingdom of Aragón)
732 Moors invasion of France halted by Charles Martel

From 711 when the INVASION occurred (which David seems quite happy about) to 732 when they tried to slash and burn their way into Western Europe..the time period was a mere 21 years.... TWENTY ONE YEARS.. hardly a 'Golden Age'..more likely a gold plated comma.

This 'Golden, tolerant and enlightened' government attacked the Franks, burning, raping, pillaging and destroying.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/732tours.html
Then Abderrahman, [the Muslim emir] seeing the land filled with the multitude of his army, crossed the Pyrenees, and traversed the defiles [in the mountains] and the plains, so that he penetrated ravaging and slaying clear into the lands of the Franks. He gave battle to Duke Eudes (of Aquitaine) beyond the Garonne and the Dordogne, and put him to flight---so utterly [was he beaten] that God alone knew the number of the slain and wounded.

SO.. I challenge David F and anyone else to give BALANCE AND REASON when they speak about Islamic activities and hurl insults and abuse at ALL Christians by saying 'The Holocaust was APPLIED 'Christianity'"

If anything it was MIS-applied "Christ-ianity" because Jesus never did or urged such a thing. To say otherwise is absolute religious vilification.