Antiseptic

Is it possible to join a different group? We don't always click with absolutely everyone all of the time. Some women's groups are very clichy and are impossible to fit in with. I know.

However, I note that you do react very quickly to real or perceived criticism, for example your response to SallyG, you are very quick to cast aspersions about someone you don't know.

I am not saying this is the case but if you have been this prickly towards any of the women in your group, maybe they feel they cannot be open with you and this makes it difficult to be relaxed if people feel they have to walk on egg-shells in order not to upset you.

Just because a woman is critical of a particular man's behaviour, doesn't make her a 'man-hater' as I have observed some women have been labeled on OLO.

I know from your posts that you care passionately and deeply about your children, but perhaps being a little less hasty to judge would enable us all to communicate more freely.

Overall I am really heartened by the increasing involvement by men in their children's lives. That wasn't the case only a generation ago. I guess we are all learning about our responsibilities as parents, employees and treating one another with respect in difficult situations.

Good Luck

Fractelle:"your response to SallyG, you are very quick to cast aspersions about someone you don't know."

I was simply returning Sally G's comment in kind. I took her genuinely thoughtful comment and also tried to respond in kind. If she had left it there, so would I. I am very strongly opposed to double standards.

Fractelle: "if you have been this prickly towards any of the women in your group, maybe they feel they cannot be open with you and this makes it difficult to be relaxed if people feel they have to walk on egg-shells in order not to upset you."

I haven't had any opportunity to discuss anything but banalities with any of them. A couple of them know the ex, who I suspect has "poisoned the well" WRT myself. As you say, some groups of women can be very cliquey. It's difficult to initiate conversations with people who simply don't acknowledge you exist. Several times I've responded to a "g'day", to be completely ignored, discovering that the person was greeting someone a few metres behind me.

Fractelle: "Overall I am really heartened by the increasing involvement by men in their children's lives."

From my own observations it is actually declining. I am under a great deal of pressure from the Scouts to become a leader because the particular troop has NO male leaders and is consequently finding it hard to retain boys as members, not to mention that many of the traditional Scouting activities are quite physically demanding, which is difficult for some smaller women to cope with.

The usual reasons given by men are:
"not enough time" to help out
"worried about being accused of doing something wrong"
"too difficult and complex" to become approved to assist

Some of those reasons apply to me, but I will give it a go, I think.

Antiseptic

Thank you for your reply.

Sounds to me like you have an uphill battle winning over the women in your group.

I'm not so sure that there is less male participation like you said. The issues facing men are the same as those facing women; too little free time available, long work days, inflexible (for employee) work hours. The heart and soul of the human world is the family, yet our entire economy is structured around the impossible ideal of ever increasing profit. We need sustainable work practices as much as we need sustainable energy.

It is a shame, also, that we are so fear driven. We fear letting our children take themselves to school, fear rocking the boat at work for wanting to spend time with our children as well. Wanting to be a good parent does not mean we aren't interested in our careers, but there is no balance.

Nor does there appear to be any incentive to create a balance between employment and our private lives. We are neither corporate robots or total domestic slaves isolated with only children for company.

It is not 'gender wars' either. Seems to me time is way overdue for men and women to combine forces and create a society that places the well-being of all as the basis for our economy.

Some employers have realised that happy employees are far more productive than stressed ones, but we have a long way to go before our well being is given more importance than the almighty dollar.

Sending kids to daycare before the age of 4yo is no less than child abuse. In years to come this will emerge and will be seen to be a mistake. Women see day care as an easy way out, they would rather pay their wages in child care, and not have the responsability of rearing their own kids. Doesn,t it make you wonder when females put a 3 month old child into daycare. Why bother having kids.

I can see why Antiseptic has problems fitting in. When you read his posts on other topics, as soon as anyone personally criticises him he immediately responds in kind. He won't like hearing this, but that shows weakness and a real character flaw. I could imagine him amongst the women, eying each of them suspiciously and just waiting for the evil eye from one of them, and then thinking "hey, why can't they accept me"? He comes across here as a very defensive type of individual, and this may be what those women are seeing, and why he's not popular with the women at those child activities he claims to be involved with.

Jason60, those children in childcare, every one of them, has a father. You might carry more weight if you addressed your remarks to the mothers AND fathers. If the mothers are so bad, then how about the FATHERS taking responsibility by caring for the children! Don't just blame mothers, as you show your bias clearly that way, and it's difficult to take you seriously.

' I could imagine him amongst the women, eying each of them suspiciously and just waiting for the evil eye from one of them, and then thinking "hey, why can't they accept me"?'

I can imagine the reverse being true of many women who speak of a 'boys club' in the workplace...