Antiseptic, don't worry too much about being given the cold shoulder by some women during some children's activities. I'm female and believe me I've been made to feel that I don't 'really belong'.

Don't know what it is. Maybe they're just boring and don't want to be found out or you don't come across as being competitive enough. Some mothers seem to live vicariously through their children and hope that their children's glory will somehow reflect a bit of glitter on their own boring lives.

At the ice-skating rink during figure skating I prefer to talk to the few dads who are there. They're not nearly as obsessed and their children consequently seem to enjoy their time on the ice more.

yvonne

"Some mothers seem to live vicariously through their children and hope that their children's glory will somehow reflect a bit of glitter on their own boring lives."

I know you prefaced this statement with the words "Some mothers", so I guess it could reasonably be argued that you were only referring to a small number of women.

For me though, statements like this tend to cast aspersions on women who choose to devote a large chunk of their time to raising their family, which surely is a legitimate choice and one which should be valued.

These lives might appear 'boring' to others who for whatever reason place more emphasis on their career, but many women believe this to be the right and best choice for them and I'm sure they find the day-to-day lives of their families anything but 'boring'.

CG, thanks for that. I do probably tend to phrase things here so as to provoke a response, especially among those who hold an opinion different to my own. I always try to be precise in what I say though, possibly to the point of being a bit verbose.

Yvonne, thank you too. I don't let it bother me really, but it does have an impact on the kids. The team in question is doing quite well, so perhaps you're right about the vicarious competition thing. There is so much pressure on everyone to perform these days, it does take something away from the joy of playing for the sake of it. To be honest, it may even be something as simple as them not feeling I'm "good enough", since I don't drive a flash car (either the old mazda or the truck) and I often turn up having just finished or preparing to start a job, so I'm not dressed to the nines. Whatever it is, it's their problem. I was probably a bit hasty blaming it on gender, but I'm one of the very few males at these games, so it seems likely that also plays a part.

Bronwyn, people's lives can be boring whether they work or choose to stay home with their kids. I know people of both genders who see their life's work as being nothing less than giving their kids a chance to shine, even if the rest of us know the only way it's going to happen is if they're painted with phosphorus. Personally, I'd rather give the kids the chance to have fun and worry about being a star later, if the fancy takes them. Life's too short. Having kids is a great way to remind yourself of that. Mine are nearly teenagers and they were only babies last week, I swear.

It's interesting though, that you automatically assumed Yvonne was talking about non-working mothers. It adds some strength to US's original argument, don't you think?

Bronwyn, I agree with Antiseptic here. There are plenty of working women who are boring or obsessed with work and men arent immune from that either. Such can be so guilt-ridden that they then do over-kill on the "quality time". Also I have found that men in groups at such sporting events have a tendency to tell stories and jokes, where as women's discussions will focus around fashion and Sex in the City (neither of which are particularly appealing conversational gems to me).

Antiseptic, you actually do sound a bit like my old dad - he'd turn up in work clothes (which was an extreme embarrassment at a particular point in our lives - if you have any daughters bear this in mind if they seem to not want to be seen with you through some of the teenage years), and drives a 25yo mazda car and 30yo mazda ute!

Jason, I take it that if you think work is a junket you are a dole-bludger.

Ouch Bronwyn! If I ever came across as critical of women who 'devote a large chunk of their time to raising their family' it must be because of poor expression on my part. It is by no means 'devoted-stay-at-home' mums I was referring to.

Though working, my husband and I devote a lot of time to raising our children. We can't afford others to do that job for us even if we wanted to. Besides, believe me when I tell you that not all non-working (paid work outside the home) mothers are 'devoting' a large chunk of their time to their children. Even when preening at events and/or competitions. At my eldest son's school I met a lot of them.

It does not assist any kind of discussion if women want to insist that there are only two kinds of women: Madonnas (not the singer!) or fearless independent women

Isn't it funny Antiseptic, how the car one drives can determine inclusion or not at some kids events? My son's take on this was that he could immediately see where I was parked, unlike the other poor kids who had to try and make out the number plates in the sea of Mercs and Range Rovers. Very amusing really.

Yvonne, Antiseptic and Country Gal

I knew Yvonne hadn't referred directly to stay-at-home mothers, and also that working mothers are just as likely to lead 'boring' lives as mothers not in the paid workforce. All that occurred to me as I posted, but I still felt the point needed to be made.

Women who aren't doing paid work are more likely to have the time to attend children's events, so I don't think the inference was that much of a stretch. I know I read between the lines, but there is a view out there that women who stay home don't have a life of their own and live it through their children, and it's one I will always challenge, even if it is a slightly tenuous implication, as in this case!

Equally, though, Yvonne, I don’t think it can be inferred from my statements that I 'insist' on there being 'only two kinds of women: Madonnas (not the singer!) or fearless independent women.'

So, on the charge of reading too much into what others have said, I guess we're about even!

Country Gal

"What you appear to be pushing is a communist society.."

No I'm not. But I realise I'm in the minority here in believing that a major structural economic shift is needed, before any more than a small percentage of women will ever achieve real choice in their working and family lives, so I won't pursue the issue here.