I really do agree with CJ that many men simply can't deal with the fact of independent women.

And R0bert is right - it is a very serious issue.

Since women began supporting each other in redefining themselves, men have felt left out and left behind.

Before I separated from my husband, I tried very hard to encourage him to attend counseling sessions with me - but he refused. In the end, I couldn't stand the abuse and had to go. He wanted me to do exactly as he told - all the time. I am simply too independent, intelligent and capable to be anyone's servant, I saw and still see marriage as an equal partnership. Most people do.

There is a wealth of information at the following websites for men in all life situations. I hope that this can be of some help.

http://www.manhood.com.au/

http://www.menslineaus.org.au/MentalWellbeing.aspx]

The level of suicide is a symptom of deep anxiety and a terrible cost to families (partners and children) and society in general.

Fair enough R0bert, my comment was a tad flippant. I agree that the disproportionately higher male suicide rate in Australia is probably evidence that there is still a minority of men who can't cope with the changed nature of gender relations - and indeed of masculinity - in our society.

However, I am contemptuous of suggestions that men should be heads of their households by right. I think that TRTL's observation is most likely on the right track - i.e. that it is the retention of anachronistic ideas about masculinity and male roles that is responsible for some poor losers taking their own lives, rather than adapting to a society where women expect to be equal to their male partners.

Fractelle's right that "many men simply can't deal with the fact of independent women". These are the men who seek compliant wives from societies where women remain subordinate to men, or who are attracted to patriarchal religions and cults that reinforce their obsolete views of the natural leadership of males in the family.

I suppose that in some extreme cases, the dissonance between the anachronistic self-image and the actuality of a world in which women won't do as they're told becomes pathological, so the poor bastards see no other option than to top themselves. As Fractelle also said, this is undoubtedly not only a tragedy for them, but also to the families, friends and children they leave behind.

My view is that it is very possible for men and women to construct healthy and equal partnerships that may or may not lead to the establishment of happy families, but there is very little chance of that happening if men retain ideas of masculinity that belong in the 1950s. John Wayne is dead and buried, guys.

TRTL,

I don't think you understand my point. I'm happy for families to decide what role the man and woman might take, but all I'm saying is the feminist movement downgraded the percieved worth or value of being a stay at home parent. It was necessary to sell the disenchantment to obtain equal working rights.

It achieved a worthwhile and valuable thing, but the side effect was to have people think of being a housewife as somehow a degrading existance. A lot of women who can even afford to be stay at home mothers, now feel the need to justify themselves and retort 'what do you do all day', 'aren't you bored' kind of attitudes.

In terms of men choosing to stay home, it's really a secondary choice to the womans inaliable right to stay home first. Women chooses if she will stay at home or go back to work. If woman goes back to work, man might be able to afford to stay home. The default position is the woman gets first dibs, and the breast feeding brigade enforce this even more so. There will never be equality of access for men to be stay at home fathers. We will always have choice for women, then after that choice is made, some choice left over for men.

Fractelle and CJ,

I can only gather you two are in your twighlight years, or have exposure to some kind of fundamentalist religion. Man who do you people mix with? I don't know any men like the ones you describe.

'Since women began supporting each other in redefining themselves, men have felt left out and left behind.'

Hahaha. What a load of sexist, patronising crap. I'm sure you'd like to believe that Fractelle, but men are infinately more adaptable and able to 'redefine' themselves (should they wish to) than you think.

I for one do believe that men and women can never be equal because of the different gender roles we both play. We can never the less have equal rights, and this is the problem we all are facing in Australia. The fact is that in our family circumstances where we spend most our time and share our all within, we don’t have equal rights. The woman has all the power, and can and do run their homes as dictatorships. And this is the problem I am trying to have discussed.

You see, 2 men every day are not toping themselves through the loss of their wives, but the loss of their kids. Anyone who argues different is certainly not in touch with the facts of modern life in Australia. I can assure you this is the case because I talk to many of these people daily, and understand them after the loss of my own family. In all these cases, the man can live with the wife doing him over, but the enforced loss of his kids is where all the hurt is.

Then comes along CSA and bleeds him to death so he has no likely future for many years to come. These are the circumstances that lead 2 good Australian men to commit suicide every day, it is not the loss of their power base as some have tried to suggest, it is the pain they can no longer stand associated with his kids and hopless future prospects.

I hope a few of you read up on this a bit more and get back to this forum. I am about to be hit by a Typhoon, so could loose my connection anytime - http://www.typhoon2000.ph

CJMorgan>"I think that TRTL's observation is most likely on the right track - i.e. that it is the retention of anachronistic ideas about masculinity and male roles that is responsible for some poor losers taking their own lives, rather than adapting to a society where women expect to be equal to their male partners."

Excuse me... but masculinity and male roles are timeless and infinite. Just as female roles and femininity are so. They have a solid scientific, biological basis. However, do not mistake me for a fool here (I know that by now you will be thinking something to this effect). Many women like the traditional male to take care of them in the traditional manner. Sometimes I have found some feminists to be the most beholden to the archetypes and romanticism about men and cling to them. Feminism freed some of those women who felt oppressed by the laws that forced them into such a role. However now it also poisons other women into going against their nature. Many women do actually need this. I think you would be surprised at how many relationships have the male in the traditional role or a shadow of it. You would not believe it with the feminists and media though. Do not call men who commit suicide "losers". That is a disgrace.

Steel "Many women like the traditional male to take care of them in the traditional manner." some might but I doubt that there are many actaually willing to leave all the important decisions to a partner.

My impression is that in our society amongst groups where traditional roles are "upheld" whats really upheld is men doing the hard yards and the women ensuring the head of the house knows just what decisions to make. The women brought up to expect a man to be head of the house are smart enough to make the most of the vanity of males who see themselves as the head. As Poncan pointed out earlier in relation to his world of headship "Women here have more opportunity than men do. Men are usually too busy working to support their families." Headship is a sucker punch in the modern era.

It's an argument thats been regurgitated many times on OLO, I'm with those who think healthy relationships are based on respect and mutual decision making. I think that nominating who is head on the basis of which appendages they have is damaging to all concerned.

TRTL - "I'd say it's also more likely that typical old fashioned attitudes about men needing to be the 'head of the family' cause these suicides rather than prevent them. When a man feels he has to hold it all together and be the sole bulwark against adversity... not to mention trying to live up to emotionally stunted role models like John Wayne, who would never discuss their feelings... well, sounds like more of a disastrous recipe to me." Spot on.

R0bert