Antiseptic: << how do my children and those of the rest of my generation overcome the barriers to personal relationships that their forebears have erected? >>

Antiseptic, I should probably have expressed myself a little less tersely, but it seems to me that those disaffected men like yourself who haven't handled the breakdown of their marriages well, and who project their anger and frustration on to others, are the ones who have "erected the barriers to personal relationships" that their unfortunate offspring will face.

In my experience, any man who assumes that it is his right and role to be "head" of his household in contemporary Australia is doomed inevitably to become head of a single-person household - unless, as I have said, he marries someone from a primitive culture where such arrangements are still the norm, or joins some religious cult where such values are enshrined.

The only barriers to personal relationships lie in the expectations that people have of each other. If one party to the relationship demands a higher status within it than the other, it's doomed from the start. If your kids realise this basic fact of contemporary life, then that's a very good start to "dealing with" the reality that patriarchal relationships are now very much out of step with prevailing values in Australian society.

As for you, if you can't get past your own bitterness, then at the very least you and your ex need to try consciously not to project that bitterness and anger on to your kids. You seem to be an intelligent bloke in other areas, but like so many who have suffered a failed marriage your emotional intelligence doesn't seem to be quite on par with your other faculties.

I think it's perfectly possible for families to be happy and prosperous in contemporary Australia - but they need to approach each other with honesty, openness and equality. "Father Knows Best" is a stereotype that died in the 1950s, thankfully.

Here from my position overseas, I haven’t personally heard of any feminism as we know it in OZ, although women here do everything and anything they want. As I said in the other forum, my bank manager, accountant, attorney, dentist, and neighbor who is a school principal are all women. Our head of state is a woman.

It is also interesting that there is no Family Court here, no CSA, and domestic violence is unheard of. There is in fact no divorce allowed for by law. It is expected that the husband is the family head. Personally, I make no decisions on behalf of any of my family of all girls, but lay down the rules whereby they all have equal say, responsibility, and opportunity, and where we can all live together and share the running of our home.

To suggest that the women here go without opportunity is only sadly said with ignorance. Women here have more opportunity than men do. Men are usually too busy working to support their families.

To return to the argument in hand, I might suggest that it obvious to me that the destruction of the family unit, devaluation of the father, and the rise of feminism driven women’s support mechanisms, will see eventually the destruction of all social values in Australia, and a mass exodus of it’s men looking for something better. This is already underway. What we real men want and need is available elsewhere if one is prepared to adjust ones thinking a little. Those who like it the way it is in OZ can stay there – can’t they?

Thanks – I have “dealt with it” Ms Morgan. Antiseptic echoes the thoughts of most men and quiet a few women. Polycarp, a church is not necessary to adopt good personal values and live them out. TRTL, I have never argued in favor of polygamy. I said that it happens but this is their business, although it does not suit me. Head of family is a responsibility, not a fix for the power hungry, but someone has to do it.

Poncan: << Thanks – I have “dealt with it” Ms Morgan. >>

Ah yes - by emigrating to your mysterious Shangri-La. I suppose it'd be asking too much to ask you to actually name this utopia where there is no divorce and "domestic violence is unheard of"?

P.S. I'm a bloke.

Mr. Morgan – thanks for helping make my point with regard to the decline of masculinity.

No problems Mate – I live as much of my time as possible at my home and with my family in the Northern parts of the Philippines Islands. This is the closest real thing any family and female loving man could find to Utopia. It didn’t come to me, I went out and got it driven by the need to have something better than the system and women in Australia could offer. I am only one of many, but there are plenty of other places in the World just as family friendly.

I might add that I travel a lot and do so displaying the Australian flag on my cabin luggage, cap, and flying jacket arm patches. I am actually a walking advertisement for Australia. I look for discussion, debate, and comment from other fellow travelers. In the past 3 to 4 years, I have not heard one good word said, and feel that I take a risk getting around the way I do.

The fact is Blokes, having any sort of relationship with a woman in Australia is playing Russian roulette with future slavery as the big gun. Like it or not, extreme feminism is killing a good country, and there is no political guts to change anything while this scenario is supported by the general population.

CJ Morgan:"The only barriers to personal relationships lie in the expectations that people have of each other"

The State interference in relationships that have produced children means that our expectations of each other must include an anticipation of the likely outcome when the relationship inevitably fails, as nearly all do. I'd go further and say the State positively encourages women to end relationships on the flimsiest of pretexts. Where once people were encouraged to remain together and work things out, we now have an enormous bureaucracy that exists only to assist women who want to end a relationship and to penalise men for having entered one in the first place. There is an enormous state apparatus pumping out propaganda telling women that they ARE of higher status and providing them with the means to enforce that view.

I see my own role today as that of the canary in the coal mine. To paraphrase someone else, if this could happen to a well-educated, articulate bloke of good will, who didn't beat his wife or have an affair or fail to provide for his children, what chance has a yobbo from the wrong side of the tracks? The system of Laws and bureaucracies as they are constituted today make it almost impossible to avoid a disastrous outcome for a man if a woman chooses not to resist the pressure and sometimes, even if she does. That has to be a factor for any man thinking of entering a live-in relationship.

CJM:"if you can't get past your own bitterness, then at the very least you and your ex need to try consciously not to project that bitterness and anger on to your kids"

I'm not bitter, nor is my ex and my kids are doing just fine, thanks. I don't much discuss the issues here with them, but I don't demur if they ask. As a responsible father, it is my job to ensure they're equipped for the world they'll inherit. It's just a shame my parents generation and my own have screwed that world up so badly.

Poncan: << I live as much of my time as possible at my home and with my family in the Northern parts of the Philippines Islands. This is the closest real thing any family and female loving man could find to Utopia >>

Thanks Poncan. I guess Australia's loss is the Philippines' gain, eh? Mind you, I don't imagine too many Australians would miss blokes like you who apparently have to go to a tribal society in order to find the primitive status they seem to need.

I doubt you're correct that divorce and domestic violence are "unheard of" in the community in which you've found refuge. I'm not aware of any society on earth where those things don't occur - certainly not in mainstream Philippines society. Which tribal group is it, so I can check?

Antiseptic: "The State interference in relationships that have produced children means that our expectations of each other must include an anticipation of the likely outcome when the relationship inevitably fails, as nearly all do"

Antiseptic, it's not the State that has shifted power relations in marriages from the outmoded expectation that men used to have that they would be the heads of their households. This has occurred at the level of popular culture, whereby women have quite reasonably demanded equality with men in their marriages. You're probably correct that relationships where men expect to be in charge are inevitably doomed to failure, but that's hardly the fault of the State.

Rather, it's the fault of that minority of men who haven't come to terms with the fact that gender inequality in Australian society and culture are rapidly becoming relegated to history, where it belongs. You may say that you're not bitter about your failed marriage, but it's pretty clear to an observer that you have by no means "dealt with" it successfully.