You two (PaulL and Jayb) keep ignoring everything that has shown about the murder of civilians (by US/NATO forces) and using the same old fallacies (eg about human shields). Let me repeat that.

1. The "Human Shield" argument is a fallacy. It doesn't adhere to reality in most cases.

PaulL>"Jayb is absolutely correct when he suggests that Taliban/AlQaeda wounded and dead are regularly presented as civilians."

Civilian wounded and dead are always presented as Taliban/Al Qaeda terrorists by the US/NATO and Australian military.

PaulL>"Furthermore, victims of the Taliban/AlQaeda are also attributed to the Coalition."

And from a particular perspective that remains true in the sense that without this war, poeple would not be lying in mass graves as they are now, nor would their homes be in ruins.

Jayb, I'm not sure if Antiseptic has ever disclosed the reason for his title here, so your guess is premature. However it makes you look like obsequious, servile scum for doing so, particularly as you are questioning an Australian at the same time as suggesting that you have a fawning relationship with Americans.

Why would it be a bad thing to hate Americans for their foreign policy, that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians? And the destruction of their country. Are you an American patriot, or an Australian patriot?

"Two scientific study teams from the Uranium Medical Research Centre, Canada were sent to Afghanistan. The first arrived in June 2002, concentrating on the Jalalabad region.

"The second arrived four months later, broadening the study to include the capital Kabul, which has a population of nearly 3.5 million people. The city itself contains the highest recorded number of fixed targets during Operation Enduring Freedom.

"For the study's purposes, the vicinity of three major bomb sites were examined. It was predicted that signatures of depleted or enriched uranium would be found in the urine and soil samples taken during the research.

"The team was unprepared for the shock of its findings, which indicated in both Jalalabad and Kabul, DU was causing the high levels of illness. Tests taken from a number of Jalalabad subjects showed concentrations 400% to 2000% above that for normal populations, amounts which have not been recorded in civilian studies before.

"Those in Kabul who were directly exposed to US-British precision bombing showed extreme signs of contamination, consistent with uranium exposure.

"How many of these people will suffer a painful and early death from cancer? Even the study team itself complained of symptoms during their stay. Most of these symptoms last for days or months.

"In August of 2002, UMRC completed its preliminary analysis of the results from Nangarhar. Without exception, every person donating urine specimens tested positive for uranium contamination. The specific results indicated an astoundingly high level of contamination; concentrations were 100 to 400 times greater than those of the Gulf War Veterans tested in 1999.

"A researcher reported. "We took both soil and biological samples, and found considerable presence in urine samples of radioactivity; the heavy concentration astonished us. They were beyond our wildest imagination." (Global Research Centre Canada)

Since 2001, the cumulative expenditure by the U.S. government on Operation Enduring Freedom has exceeded $150 billion.

Steel. "I'm not sure if Antiseptic has ever disclosed the reason for his title here, so your guess is premature."

How thick would you have to be, not to recognise the inferance. Septic Tank....Yank, Anti Septic. Duh! Premature.... a better word would have possible been rash. But no. I got it right first time.

"Why would it be a bad thing to hate Americans for their foreign policy"

I admit, Americas Foreign Policy isn't real good & they are a very arrogant people. "If it's not American it's no good." Still that's no reason to hate a people as a whole. I have this debate with several American friends in Australia & via the net in America. They also admit that some Americans can be very one eyed about America.

Perhaps things will change with Obama becoming President. I think a foregone conclusion. Just like the last change of our Government.

"responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians?"

That's really pushing it. I that's the case then Terrorists, insurgents, Teliban & Al queada are responsible for many millions of civilians deaths. Your senario.

"And the destruction of their country. Are you an American patriot, or an Australian patriot?"

I don't see the destruction of their country. Please explain!

An Australian patriot but I support what the Yank have done. Some things could have been done better, but, with hindsite, that's always the case. Isn't it.

cont>

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By the way. 1 R.A.R. Joined the 173D Airborne Brigade at Ben Hoa, SVN in 65. I was in B Coy 65/66 as such a we formed one of the Battalions of the 173D, & proud to be. The 1/503d jumped into France on D Day. The 2/503d was formed in Atherton, Australia & jumped into the Markim Valley with the 2/25th Battalion, 9 Div. AIF. the 2/25th & some others became 1 R.A.R. All the Way. Airborne. The American unit that joined the 1/25th at the Battle of Hammel in WW1 eventually became the 1/503d. America saved the first world War & the Second World War. With out them you would be speaking German & Japanese. You wouldn't have the freedom to hold the views you have today either. Just a little history for you to ponder.

"I don't see the destruction of their country. Please explain!"

Jayb

Clearly you have little understanding of WMD and their impacts on humans and the planet's biodiversity. Nor do our leaders!

No point reminiscing about WW1 and WW11 Jayb unless you'd like to reflect on the chlorine gas perpetrated on the enemy in WW1 or the atomic bombing of Japan where victims and their progeny continue to suffer from radiation illnesses today.

It appears that we in the West have learnt little from history when we then chose to "defoliate" Vietnam with the chlorinated Agent Orange. The ongoing bioaccumulative effects on the Vietnamese people and beyond is also a crime against humanity:

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0401/pjg31.html

Seemingly past chemical warfare on other nations was a mere "bagetel" when the coalition forces decided to irradiate the people of Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo, with a substance which has a half life of millions of years.

This, the planet will pay dearly for. The radioactive contamination will impact on all eco-systems, the food chain, humans and animals alike where the mutagenic, carcinogenic and teratogenic impacts are already evident.

This is the 21st Century. It's time the West ceased self-destructing by playing cowboys and Indians, using chemical weapons of mass destruction.