Steel "They do not care how they or their families died, nor why their possessions and homes lie in ruins. They are dead and their livelihoods and loved ones are destroyed. Whether it was an 'accident', negligence or deliberate the result is death"

"Just a week after Afghan President Hamid Karzai chastised international forces for being "careless," Afghan officials reported Saturday that possibly 100 or more civilians had been killed in a NATO and U.S.-led assault."

Oh! Steel, Steel, Steel, What do you know about war & warlike activites. In a word, nothing. Do the Yanks make mistakes. Yes they do. I have been on the receiving end of Blue on Blue twice. Both times by the Yanks. They are remarkablely good at it. In fact they injure a lot more of their own troops then you will ever hear about. Even in peacetime exercises. Especially if the rounds are danger close.

Are these civilian casualties deliberate. No they are not! The co-ordinates can be given in the wrong order, Mis-interpretation by the fire controler, different comunication system procedures used by different Nationalities, in my case, are but some of the causes of Blue on Blue.

The enemy, is adept at using civilians to cover their own attacks. They heavily engage the good guys from houses with civilians hidden inside. They estimate that aircraft or heavy firepower is going to be used then abandon the site leaving a martyr & the civilians to their fate. The Teliban know what will happen & plan for it.

They uses the Western Press to insight people who have absolutly no real understanding of what's happening. This gives them psudo support. I have never seen any "anti-war" proponents demonstrate on the streets against the deliberate targeting of civilians by the Teliban or Al Qaeda. So, by your deliberate lack of response to their attrocities I surmise that you support these terrorists and their actions.

Jayb: "I have never seen any "anti-war" proponents demonstrate on the streets against the deliberate targeting of civilians by the Teliban or Al Qaeda."

Demonstrations are specifically aimed at those in control in our own countries, with the intent of changing the way they do things. Demonstrating against the acts of those from elsewhere who genuinely don't care 2 hoots about what we say is like demonstrating against cholera.

Jayb: "by your deliberate lack of response to their attrocities I surmise that you support these terrorists and their actions."

And I don't have to make any surmises to know you support the deliberate targetting of civilians, since you make it quite clear you do. Imputing your own nasty beliefs to others doesn't justify them.

Antiseptic. "And I don't have to make any surmises to know you support the deliberate targetting of civilians, since you make it quite clear you do. Imputing your own nasty beliefs to others doesn't justify them."

And where exactly did I say that I condoned the deliberate of civilians? What part of my text did I say that the Allies deliberated civilians? I DID NOT! & THEY DO NOT!

Do you support the Teliban & Al Qaeda targeting civilians? It appears that you do not believe these terriost do, dispite the evidence. It is not the Septics that are planting roadside bombs, car bombs in civilian markets & killing women & children for receiving aid from the allies. I wonder who it is? Could it be the Terriosts? Surely not.

You see I know something of war. Been there, done that. You do not! Your words make you guilty of supporting terriosts by default.

Jayb>"So, by your deliberate lack of response to their attrocities I surmise that you support these terrorists and their actions."

I'm speechless. Really. Do you think I should be arrested for these posts?

There are even more obvious incidents of deliberate actions and criminal negligence in both wars. To pretend otherwise is denialism and revisionism. Here is one example. The "human shields" argument shows a lack of understanding of asymmetric war and shows a clever, superficial phrase seems to always trump reason for the unthinking- I have heard the argument so often that it must be propaganda amongst the military and political classes to rationalise their behaviour and laziness in conflicts.

Do you expect people defending their country clothed in rags should simply walk into an open field and be destroyed with a single bomb? If someone is hiding in a civilian occupied village, you should not destroy it if you respect human life and make innocent people suffer and pay in blood for your aversion and laziness to engage in hard and close warfare. That doesn't make you any better than those you think you are morally superior to and condemn. Similarly, you do not kill all hostages in a bank robbery to take out the criminal inside incidentally and accuse him of hiding amongst human shields to support your murder of the civilians inside. You are dishonest to have not questioned the propaganda about human shields when you first heard it.

Paul.l

Thank you for putting some balance to this debate. Without your knowledgable input we would be left with the typical 'lets hate the US/Israel' mantra which seems so common among many of the posters.

What Paul said was irrelevant to the discussion. He was merely dancing around the core issue.