I think CountryGal and other feminists who put women on pedestals need to read this blog:

http://gonzman.blogspot.com/2004/01/where-are-real-men.html

--= Where are the real men?

Sick of hearing it. Next time I hear someone yelping about “real manhood” I’m about half ready to pull out my trusty two-by-four and commence to opening up a size-ten can of whoopass. Bloody twits wouldn’t know a real man if they got their ankles chewed to the bone by one.

Have you ever noticed, gents, how when someone starts talking about how “A real man would” it’s generally followed by you giving something? Rights, money, surrendering your career, your integrity, or your soul? Belly up to the bar, men, it’s time to shed some more of that expendable Y-chromosome blood. Bend over. Here it comes again.

Bah

Okay, let’s talk about the “Real Man.” The real man of myth keeps those rugged good looks, square jaw, and five O’clock shadow. He grays gracefully, has those solid abs, and dresses to the nines. He never, ever, smells of sweat. He of course does this without being a “Metrosexual.”

The real man is ambition and has purpose, but somehow always finds a way to put his family first. But he keeps his well-paying job and moves ahead despite an insistence on going home early, passing on overtime (mandatory or not), and not working weekends.

Even if it is in a job he hates, and is killing him by inches, the Real Man keeps a stiff upper lip and puts his nose to the grindstone because they Need The Money. He never does anything risky like change careers, apply for the job he always wanted to do, or go into business for himself. To do that would be Selfish and put his needs ahead of the Good Of The Family. Things might become tight for a while, and that might stress her out.

The real man’s woman doesn’t have to work, does so only if she wants to, and keeps her money. His money is “ours” and her money is “hers.”

.... (continues)

Foxy: "You've just been unlucky - and its soured your views"

The topic of the thread is the men who choose not to try in the first place because they've seen what happened to others when they were "just unlucky". My own case is only relevant to the extent that it provides an illustration of the sort of thing that many men are now very much aware can happen to them at any time. Who can blame them for deciding not to take the chance?

Nothing I've seen from any of those on the "you've just been unlucky" side of the discussion has given me any reason to suspect that those men who choose not to father children via an intended long-term relationship have it wrong. There has been a stream of "noone does it as tough as us women" and some stupid personal attack rubbish, but not much debate. Sadly, that's about the level of reportage in the media so it's hardly surprising it would stick, and even sadder, it's no better in the parliaments.

This is going to be THE "big" social issue in a few years and all the coattail-riding pseudo-academics will be wringing their hands saying "but we thought we were doing the right thing".

Anti

Scam with Pale? How dare you. If I recall you were already suspended once for making a similar comment that pale tried to bribe you.
My god who would want to know a person who had to be dragged to court to pay his family and children.

You really are a creep of the higest order. I said what I thought and I still think many men dont like to pay if they are not living at the house. I have seen it time and time again. Then they go out and find a girlfriend- not all but most- So they juggle not paying for the x wife and kids between not getting 'sucked in' to a new life with a new lady.
Life becomes miserable as you try to aviod being taken for a sucker. As you said men become scared of bad marriages.
Heres the thing. Make sure you are a loving kind good natured person before you have kids.
There are some lovely people out there but to see them you must be on the same planet

Taryn: "who would want to know a person who had to be dragged to court to pay his family and children."

I see the usual standard of fact-checking is still in use at PALE.

I know, you can start a new group: "People Against Reality".

Now be a dear and shut the door on your way out, won't you?

Dear Antiseptic,

I'm not for one minute suggesting that your experiences,
and those of other men who chose not to get married
as a result of bad marriages, are in any way not valid.
Of course they are.

What I am saying is - don't generalize and include all men
in your point of view. You can't be so arrogant as to think
that everyone is going to agree with you, or that those
who don't are in any way flawed.

Not all men are running away from marriage.

Some are more than willing to embrace it.

I cited the example of the farmers, on my previous post.
It's now been made into a TV show, that I watched last night,
"The Farmer wants a wife."

Sure, it's only a TV show, but it does give us the
impression that there are men out there who are
willing to go take a chance in an attempt to find
a partner. Because they want a family and children.
And, why shouldn't they? Not all marriages are bad -
only some.

These men are willing to take the risk.

Antiseptic, I dont doubt that it is going to be the big social issue in a few years, no doubt to rival the obesity epidemic. Comes down to personal choice though, and all the hand-wringing academics in the world wont change it (wont stop them pretending that they could in order to justify having a job though). Those that see good news stories through their families and friends will have a positive attitude towards marriage, and those that see bad will see it as negative. And of course there will be a few from either side that can see both sides of the coin. I dont know that there is that much to debate really, because it is so subjective and personal (hence the flood of personal opinions).

US, You miss the fact that most of the women responding to this thread have done so in the face of being told why women are "evil" man-haters, lazy and just out to take a man's sperm and cash - ok I dramatise a little, but re-read the posts and you'll see why the debate needed to be evened up a little. A lot of men are hard-working both at work and in the home. I'll be the first to vouch for that. My job has me dealing mostly with men (and I've usually worked in a male-dominated environment), so I see that every day. I was raised by a single father, so am acutely aware of just how much men are capable of (as well as women) - in fact if anything this background has probably coloured my view a little too much: I know what is possible, so have high expectations. I also have high expectations of women, and drive myself accordingly