People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) is a radical and extremist organization designed more for people to push their dislikes onto the world than for genuine animal welfare.
Would you not think that an organization that was founded by vegans would be biased towards people that were not vegans? Well PETA is and below is a statement from their web site:

“People who support animal rights believe that animals are not ours to use for food, clothing, entertainment, experimentation, or any other purpose and that animals deserve consideration of their best interests.”

Also pushing their “vegan” doctrine are these links on the front page of their web site:
1) Veg cooking /making the transition.
2) Order Your FREE Vegetarian Starter Kit.
3) Vote for 2008’s Sexiest Vegetarian Celebrity.

Why is this important? Because it shows that the founders of PETA are pushing part of their doctrine, not to use animals for food, onto the general public and more recently onto children.
http://www.animalrights.net/archives/year/2005/000166.html

Have these maniacal extremists gone too far? Absolutely! I don’t like the idea of battery hens (chickens), pigs or other animals locked in sheds from birth to production, animals habitats being wantonly destroyed etc. However as a former Farmer (or Rancher) I see absolutely nothing wrong with farming animals for human consumption. But it doesn’t stop there, with PETA trying to get fishing banned as well.

From the front page of PETA’s web site:

“PETA works through public education, cruelty investigations, research, animal rescue, legislation, special events, celebrity involvement, and protest campaigns.”

Their idea of public education is also propaganda. Definition of propaganda in this context is; “the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.”

Their idea of animal rescue is also the killing of animals.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/23/EDG11DC9BK1.DTL
http://www.courttv.com/news/2007/0118/PETA_ctv.html

They are definitely crackpots and extremists, but to dismiss all of their complaints because of who they are would be an ad hominem fallacy.

Once you contemplate and reflect on how humans treat each other, you can only dream of the cruelty inflicted on other living creatures even for simple pleasure, who have no voice and few if any 'rights'.

Take this case of a soldier from the United States military born and raised in a democratic, western nation:

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/03/03/shocking-video-shows-us-soldier-throwing-puppy-off-cliff/

In Christian terms, God destroyed and killed nearly all animal life on the planet in anger and for no particular reason. Basically all these innocent creatures did absolutely nothing wrong and God killed them all.

This is a fallacious and hysterical account of the true picture.

The poster has manipulated the facts on the Hertford County vs Peta case where the jury found Peta guilty of a minor offence - littering - not animal cruelty.

Peta had these strays professionally euthanased by a registered vet and Peta's staff imprudently placed the carcasses in a county dumpster.

Peta has a policy where they believe that a life of pain and suffering is worse than a quick death, particularly when so many strays end up becoming the victims of vivisectionists.

Peta's main objectives is not the business of finding homes for the millions of animals ill-treated by their owners. Their main objective is to expose the abject cruelty which has occurred for centuries and continues by those in the livestock industry.

That this hypocrite (myopinion) can attack anyone is astonishing. He advised on the cull thread that he is a former sheep farmer and that he rode bulls here and in the US.

Need I remind him that the cattle industry are among the cruellest on the planet. No doubt he endorses the removal of ovaries, testicles, horns and branding of cattle, without pain relief whilst they are incarcerated in a steel crush, bellowing in pain. I am not speaking exclusively on the US. All these acts of cruelty are performed on livestock in Australia.

Both carnivores and vegetarians abhor cruelty to livestock. Carnivores want to know what happens before they consume their meat and they have every right to know.

Without Peta, Animals Australia, Viva and the hundreds of other welfare agencies, Australian citizens would remain ignorant and oblivious to the horrendous actions supported and/or perpetrated by the rash of inhumane "myopinions" who are driven by greed to suppress vital information.

contd....

Contd....

Peta promotes vegetarianism. What is wrong with that? So do many health professionals, religious orders, environmentalists and ecologists. We are free to choose.

I urge posters to spend five minutes of their time and view the following links - links which are not "air-brushed" but portray a stark picture of the depths to which these monsters have descended.

These are the realities.

We must thank Peta et all for exposing those realities and horrors to the world.

http://www.meat.org/

http://www.waitingforthestorm.com/en/pig-farm-investigation-cruelty

"Three passions have governed my life:
The longings for love, the search for knowledge,
And unbearable pity for the suffering." (Bertrand Russell)

myopinion

I think you have summed it up pretty well.

Steele

You really are mixed up in your thinking. One day you will realize that you are not God and that we are answerable to our Creator not Him answerable to us. You also show a complete lack of understanding how a merciful God could send His Son to die for your sin. Hopefully one day you will get to know the God personally of whom you so frequently mis represent.

Hi all

Myopinion, you are already a self-confessed animal cruelty practitioner. I wonder if you have watched or seen the filmed and photographic evidence? How do you think it is made? By some sort of 3D creativity?

PETA is exactly what it says it is - People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - note the "Ethical". Do you think you and those like you have nothing to answer for? Yabby claims on other threads that humans are beings of a "higher order". If that is so, humans are capable of recognizing cruelty and knowing right from wrong. Practices in livestock farming are wrong to any thinking person. I have some hens from a battery farm, and how tragic they were when we brought them home. No feathers, no beaks to speak of, gazing around in bewilderment at their first experience of fresh air, sunshine and green grass.

I have seen sheep who have fallen from overloaded trucks, and seen sick and injured sheep loaded on live export ships. I have seen sheep left in a saleyard pen with no feed for nine days. I have seen pigs in sow stalls swaying, gnawing on metal bars and screaming their misery and deprivation. But these are "food" animals, so they don't matter, do they?

Do you think it's fine to drop caustic detergents and like substances into the eyes of cruelly restrained rabbits who have no tear ducts for nothing more than cosmetic purposes, and that animals are horribly and painfully deformed for "scientific" purposes? We do it because they are "like us", and we do it because they "don't react like us".

You need to stop criticizing all the people who are trying to improve the world for these animals, and look back and reflect on your own shameful life. Look at the film at the link Dickie provided, and at the Handle with Care site just to begin with, and try to find a little insight and compassion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing not to abuse animals, including by not eating them.

Nicky

Well, look who’s suddenly attacked me. Unlike you dickie, when asked questions and don’t answer, I will answer your questions.

Posted by dickie, Wednesday, 28 May 2008

“That this hypocrite (myopinion) can attack anyone is astonishing. He advised on the cull thread that he is a former sheep farmer and that he rode bulls here and in the US.”

Now I am accused of being a hypocrite, well dickie, prove it. So by your reckoning, as a former sheep farmer and professional rodeo rider I have no credibility. Look at it from my point of view, as a former sheep farmer I would think that I had more credibility than you to talk about sheep husbandry as I was actually involved in it, unlike you. As a former rodeo rider I would think I would have more credibility to discuss that than you do, as again I was actually involved, unlike you. You just can’t get credibility by reading about these things on the internet, by reading the prolific propaganda that PETA et al send you or by hearing second hand information.

“No doubt he endorses the removal of ovaries, testicles, horns and branding of cattle, without pain relief whilst they are incarcerated in a steel crush, bellowing in pain.”

For the people that are uninitiated in cattle husbandry, the removal of the testicles from a male calf produces a steer, otherwise it would stay a bull. The vast majority of beef sold on the market is from steers. The same with sheep, after the testicles are removed they become wethers instead of staying as rams. As I was in the sheep husbandry industry and worked on cattle ranches in the U.S. many years ago I have obviously been involved in the castrating of sheep and cattle and the branding of cattle. None of which I apologise for and I am very proud of my farming background.

Yes I did ride professional rodeo both here and in the U.S. and I will tackle this issue later in this thread. By the way I am also not ashamed of that either.

"You just can’t get credibility by reading about these things on the internet, by reading the prolific propaganda that PETA et al send you or by hearing second hand information."

Touche myopinion - learn from that and cease peddling "prolific propaganda and second hand information" you have grabbed off the internet and manipulated to suit your agenda.

The footage I provided doesn't lie - these are the facts.

I can provide more if you wish.

Clearly you have a cruel indifference to and a relish for the atrocious practices of the industries you have participated in.

"I have obviously been involved in the castrating of sheep and cattle and the branding of cattle. None of which I apologise for and I am very proud of my farming background."

Any anaesthesia, myopinion - or a mere painkiller? No, I thought not.

You have shamed yourself but obviously you are very disturbed human being, cowboy. You need help - pronto!

runner>"Hopefully one day you will get to know the God personally of whom you so frequently mis represent."

Perhaps you religious people should consider minding your own business and keeping your beliefs private? How about you start teaching each other to live as morally as you want others to. If you can't even convince christians of your own rules and practices then you should not dare to point your finger or decry others. This is after all, why your own priests raped children for decades: Because you cared more about other people than the rapist priests in your own churches.

Most christians do not attend church or care for it, all they want is the pleasant symbol of the afterlife, without the commitment to bible teachings or requirements. Catholics don't even follow catholic teachings, except the most mainstream of them. The Catholic church has been reduced to taking their money and talking about the evils of not themselves or their lazy, unworthy followers who will most of them go straight to hell, but criticising others instead and blaming others and society for their own problems.

-=-=-=-
Genesis 6:5-9:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. "

-=-=-==-

how was this passage misrepresented? God killed all animals and insect life, for no particular reason.

Peta are a radical vegan group, who don’t let the truth interfere with preaching
their dogma or raising money from the public. Marketing is their speciality, not
knowledge about the topics which they get involved with.

As such, we will have to hold them responsible for the suffering and misery which
their actions will cause to merino sheep, in the name of ignorance and flawed
philosophy. Sheep will suffer, because of Peta, that is basics of it. All very sad
really.

*Look at the film at the link Dickie provided,*

Nicky, not everyone is as gullible as you are. Marketing specialists are employed
to put this stuff together, they want to push your emotional buttons and clearly
you are a sucker. There is not a field of human activity, where you could not take
a camera and film things that should not be happening. As I’ve explained before,
if I wanted to create propaganda against marriage, I could put some you beaut
websites together, using extreme examples. At some point you have to be intelligent
enough to sit back and look at the big picture, not just isolated examples put there
to suck you in. You need a course in emotional intelligence, to learn to separate
emotion from reason. The big picture matters, not isolated incidents or extreme
examples. I thought you claimed to be intelligent?

My claim was that humans evolved to have larger brains then other species. What is
right or wrong, depends on your subjective opinion, there is no objective morality.

I use nature as a guide to life and one species eating another is part of life and part
of nature. If you want to live unnaturally, ok, but don’t try to force your dogma down the
throats of the rest of us. The worms will recycle even you in the end

*Any anaesthesia, myopinion - or a mere painkiller? No, I thought not.*

Any thoughts of getting off your arse down there in the city Dickie,
and making sure that they are freely available for farmers to use?

No, I thought not.

Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 28 May 2008

“Myopinion, you are already a self-confessed animal cruelty practitioner. I wonder if you have watched or seen the filmed and photographic evidence?”

Nicky your statements about me really are pathetic and flawed. I doubt that your statement about me being a self-confessed animal cruelty practitioner would stand up in a court of law. I have restrained myself from making my comments too personal, but you’re “wearing me thin”. As for “looking back on my shameful life”, I don’t have a shameful life except probably to fanatics like you.

However you and dickie are trying, and quite successfully up to this point, of concentrating the argument towards me instead of the topic thread, which is PETA.
I have decided as the person who started this thread that I am not going to let you kidnap it for your own personal gratification.

Let’s look at PETA’s unwarranted attack on the Australian Wool Industry. Below is the link to AWI that shows that PETA is MISINFORMING THE PUBLIC about the AWI.

http://www.woolisbest.com/latest_news/2007/petaMisinformed240807.htm

Wool is Australia’s second biggest export to China after iron ore, and was worth AUD 1.27 billion dollars of exports to the Australian economy in 2006.

This is what PETA is trying to destroy, the livelihood of over 50,000 Australian wool producers and the livelihoods of the people that work for them. This scenario would also have a detrimental effect on small and large business owners in country areas, truck drivers, the rail system which is used in some parts to cart the wool, shipping lines, dock workers and the list goes on. Apart from the income that would be lost in exports.

Facts on mulesing:

http://www.wool.com.au/2010/Background_on_Mulesing/page__9063.aspx

The need for mulesing is fully supported by the following:

Australian Farmers
The Australian Government.
The Royal Society for the Protection of Cruelty to Animals.
The Australian Veterinary Association.
The National Farmers Federation.

Mulesing remains the most effective practical way to eliminate the risk of ‘flystrike’ in sheep, caused by the Australian sheep blowfly.

It involves removing some skin on the backside of the sheep to prevent wool growth in an area that would otherwise see the fly lay its eggs. The maggots of the fly then borrow into the flesh of the sheep, eating the animal alive, causing it long-term pain, distress and, ultimately, death.

Independent university studies show that without mulesing up to 3,000,000 sheep a year could die a slow and agonising death from flystrike. The Australian Government, through the Chief Veterinary Officer, strongly supports the need for mulesing, as do the Royal Society for the Protection of Cruelty to Animals and the Australian Veterinary Association.

Mulesing is a legal and approved management practice carried out in the interests of the sheep. Nevertheless, Australia’s wool farmers have made a commitment to phase out mulesing by 2010. To do this, the sector has invested many millions of dollars in research and development to find and develop alternatives.

Some in the community have campaigned for the immediate halt to mulesing. Such a call is ill-informed and would be cruelly irresponsible. It must be understood that it takes time for researchers to develop practical alternatives, have them approved for use by Government authorities, and have them made commercially available. Hence, the 2010 timeframe.

Australia’s wool farmers are also working on selectively breeding sheep to reduce or eliminate the need for mulesing. In a long-lived slow breeding animal like sheep, the process of selection, testing and distribution of desirable characteristics through the Australian sheep flock is a long-term task.

Australian wool farmers produce wool to the highest animal welfare standards in the world. Australian farmers are committed to the continuing improvement of animal welfare standards… it is in their interests, and the interest of their sheep, to do so.

Ah Yabby you know very well I don't live in the city and that I in fact reside in rural Australia.

And is there no end to the lies and propaganda you and your brothers spread?

"Any thoughts of getting off your arse down there in the city Dickie,
and making sure that they are freely available for farmers to use?"

You go to great lengths to covet your profits at the expense of tormeted animals Yabby and as a farmer who peddlies in live exports, you spend all day on OLO. It's a hard life eh?

The DAFF report - a "Review of Rural Veterinary Services" states:

"E.3 First, Australia’s animal health needs are being met on a day-to-day basis but Australia’s animal health system will need to be enhanced to meet more stringent requirements for international trade in the future. .....

"E.4 Second, there is no current crisis in the availability of veterinarians. However, rural veterinarians have to contend with rising costs and a reluctance of producers to utilise their services...."

So the lies continue while the rouseabouts, armed with searing irons, knives, mechanical contraptions to force open a cow's vaginal passage to hack off her ovaries and shears to hack off cattles', sheep and pigs' testicles, crudely slice through an incarcerated animal's exterior to ensure that the maximum profits are achieved.

Tell me Yabby, why must we endure your tedious, inane and pitiful attempts at philosophy - truck loads of stupefying swill which is totally bereft of critical thought, morality or ethics?

You may dance with the devil Yabby - you will dance alone.

And you wonder why there are so many animal welfare organisations rapidly mobilising and expanding around the globe?

Myopinion

I originally confined my comments to your bizarre and ill-informed post to discuss PETA, but you cannot expect to get away with posting inflammatory material and not expect a response - is that not what discussion fora are for, for heavens sake? What a sensitive soul you must be. But think of the pain you have inflicted, by your own admission, on countless animals.

Posting AWI propaganda from August 2007 is fatuous and disingenuous, and demonstrates how poorly informed you are. When did you last read something relevant (see latest news www.liveexportshame.com)?

Three of the five "authorities" you cite as "supporting" mulesing are vested interests, one is the Australian government, which is totally deluded by the livestock industries and thus completely dispassionate about cruelty to farm animals, and the other is RSPCA Australia, whose statement on mulesing on its website is:-

"RSPCA Australia does not endorse or accept mulesing as an essential sheep husbandry procedure".

Yabby, again, you try to plead "isolated instances". There seem to be SUCH A LOT of these "isolated instances" - how unfortunate that is for you people. Isn't it something like 90%+ of Australian pigs and chickens living in "battery" conditions? I won't even start on the rest.

And why should we do anything about getting you people products you require in the course of your business? Your business, your problem, it is no-one's fault but your own that you fail to meet community expectations. You just have got away with it for too long, and it has taken PETA and Animals Australia to get the facts out there.

As for the "lost jobs" of which myopinion speaks, where were you people when the meat workers all lost their jobs? Thinking about your few extra bucks for all the unfortunate animals you shipped out of the country along with THOSE jobs, and THOSE families' livelihoods.

As for the live export industry being world's best practice, I'm npt even going to go there (again). There are just too many "isolated instances" of brutality and you know it.

Cheers
Nicky

*And why should we do anything about getting you people products you require in the course of your business? *

Well its you doing the complaining, that farmers don't use various
vet products, when we tail our lambs. If those products are not
available to farmers, they won't be used. Even you should be able
to understand that. All very simple really. So put up or shut up.

But then its not the community who is complaining about lamb tailing
etc, its a few fringe extremists like yuorselves, who really would
like to shut the livestock industry down, as part of your flawed
philosophy.

Isolated incidences is all that you highlight in your campaign.
Over and over again. Its all part of slick marketing to push
emotional buttons. Meantime none of you seem to know the first
thing about farm livestock procedures, why they are done or how
they are done. You have absolutaly no experience in the field.

Nicky and Dickie, both as fanatical as the Taliban.

"Well its you doing the complaining, that farmers don't use various
vet products, when we tail our lambs. If those products are not
available to farmers, they won't be used. Even you should be able
to understand that. All very simple really. So put up or shut up."

Yabby

This is your usual ploy to distract readers from the evidence. You have deliberately ignored the Department of Agriculture's review which I placed here on Wednesday advising:

"E.4 Second, there is no current crisis in the availability of veterinarians. However, rural veterinarians have to contend with rising costs and a reluctance of producers to utilise their services...."

Catch on Yabby? The department advises that producers are not utilising veterinary services.

The cruel surgical procedures and the endless agony you inflict on your livestock are for you, mere peccadilloes.

As a result, you and your sordid brothers are responsible for Australia's poor reputation and the loss of trading partners overseas. Media outlets all over Europe now condemn this nation for its barbaric practices.

You may continue on with your duckshoving but your allergy to truth will further enhance a belief in the international community that a nation which tortures its animals is morally repugnant and has no future.

*The department advises that producers are not utilising veterinary services.*

Err Dickie, in your ignorance you forget that unlike yourself,
farmers are not running the old ducks knitting club, but businesses
which have to pay their way. If they make a loss, they get sold up.
That might suit the veggie brigade, but does not happen to suit
people who have worked for generations to keep their farms.

Last time I checked, some friends in Perth had their pet lambs tail
removed by a vet, the fee was 80 bucks lol. Get it now?

Just to inform you further in your ignorance, no, there are not
enough vets to run around every farm, when farmers do some tailing.
Even if their service was offered free. Its hard enough just to
get a country vet to see a dog, let alone livestock. One of my
dogs nearly died, because of that very fact.

Farmers are accredited to use bullets, herbicides, 1080 and
various other substances. There is no good reason that the same
could not be done for vet products. I've told you before and I'll
tell you again. If you want farmers to use various vet products,
they will do so if made easily available and at reasonable cost,
which is affordable.

Now in your old peoples home they might not teach you about farm
budgeting and you know nothing about it, but rest assured that the
budget figures have to add up on a farm, like in any other business.

Clearly its a subject about which you don't have the foggiest, as
per usual.

Hi all
This is an extract from Dickie's post (Yabby, did you even read it, or just not bother because it did not suit your agenda?)

"The DAFF report - a "Review of Rural Veterinary Services" states:

"E.4 Second, there is no current crisis in the availability of veterinarians. However, rural veterinarians have to contend with rising costs and a reluctance of producers to utilise their services...."

It does rather say it all, doesn't it? NO current crisis in the availability of veterinarians.

The matter of pain relief is, I suspect, far more to do with cost than availability.

I would imagine also that, given the power the farming lobby has over the Government, that it has more chance than anyone of breaking down any "red tape" for the products you describe (anaesthetics, analgesics, the latter of which at least CAN be administered by farmers) or even sorting out what you claim to be a meat industry crisis over there.

You really can't expect the poor, simple, public to go in to bat for you without sufficient information (which you haven't provided despite the fact that I asked you to tell me what would help), the government clearly doesn't listen to us at all.

Besides, I don't expect you to campaign for stuff that I might need for my business but you don't, and what I do is far more in line with community values than a lot of what you people do (as has been very well described by Dickie.

Nite all, Nicky

My opinion.

I was curious by the title of this thread.

We have had several people world wide contact us re PETA and some of the people they work with.

A lady from Japan in particular was very distressed after herself and her fiends decided to open up a group to work with stray dogs and cats because there is no RSPCA over there.

She said she was contacted by several people and told she would have to work with PETA and when she asked why it became very unpleasent.

She was a gentle lady who loved dogs and cats and wanted to help as many as they could.

I remember wondering why on earth that was such a problem to anybody else and why people just didnt leave her alone.

Then we got a letter from a woman in China complaining about the same treatment when she tried to open a small group.

I became curious as to why they would be opposed to others helping animals.

Lets face it animals need all the help they can get.

It was a fair while ago but this lady ended up being terrified . I mean that quite seriously.

Then several of our people a couple of years back decided to call PETA because they had not responded to their letters informing them of our group and the work undertaken to faze live exports and replaced with chilled.

I recall warning them that IMOP they should prepaire themselves for a let down and I didnt think PETA would be interested.

That didnt put them off one little bit as they sat up until 2am waiting to put the call through.

Each one with their notes carefully put together to explain the different programes they were working on with much pride and dedication.

Around 2am they finally got through to the person who was running the Ban live exports office.

The person apparently went to pieces and delaried she could talk to them and hung up in Taryns ear.



Strange way for PETA to treat fellow animal lovers.?

Nicky you still don't get it and you never will, because you are
trying to debate issues that are way over your head. You don't know
the first thing about agro economics, how agriculture works and
why it works or fails. Until you understand those basic issues,
you are simply way out of your league and dreaming.

The Australian sheep flock is already at its lowest level since
1924, due to lack of profitablity. In other words, people regularly
go broke trying to farm sheep for a living, so get sold up by banks
etc. Note the drop in sheep producers in the last 20 years.

Farmers do what they can afford to do. They vaccinate sheep (20c)
drench sheep (20c), mules sheep (50c) tail lambs (50c) treat them
for lice (25c), etc, as these things all assist in the wellbeing
of the animal and are affordable within their budgets. If you want
them to do things that are not affordable within their budgets, they
won't get done.

The way some farmers have dealt with the ever increasing cost/price
squeeze, is by running ever more sheep. Plenty of farmers run
10'000 head per man unit. So if they are left with 5$ a head
at the end of the year as profit, they still earn 50k$, which is
a living, little more. You would not do what they do for 50k$.

So no, farmers won't spend 5$ a head for vet products, if that means
that they go broke. Give them an affordable option at an affordable
price and they will, as we can see with other treatments.

I don't expect you to go into bat for anything, as you frankly don't
matter in the bigger scheme of things. Animal welfare groups like
the RSPCA might have some influence, as they are generally seen
to do with animal welfare. Animal liberation groups and their
followers are seen as just a bunch of extremists. Fair enough.

sadly the evidence suggests otherwise in regard to rural vets. I guess we need to assess "current".

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/200804/s2231388.htm

http://www.peta.org/feat_in_vitro_contest.asp?c=weekly_enews

PETA Offers $1 Million Reward to First to Make In Vitro Meat.

• Produce an in vitro chicken-meat product that has a taste and texture indistinguishable from real chicken flesh to non-meat-eaters and meat-eaters alike.
• Manufacture the approved product in large enough quantities to be sold commercially, and successfully sell it at a competitive price in at least 10 states.

Well won't that be tasty. Mind you PETA has not mentioned that the protein content of chicken should be replicated in the in vitro chicken-meat.

PETA likens chickens to Holocaust victims.
Animal-rights activists launch campaign against meat eaters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2810031.stm
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/142/story_14245_1.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31211

Ingrid Newkirk apologises for making comparisons to the Holocaust.

"Our mission is a profoundly human one at its heart, yet we know that we have caused pain. This was never our intention, and we are deeply sorry. We hope that you can understand that although we embarked on the “Holocaust on Your Plate” project with misconceptions about what its impact would be, we always try to act with integrity, with the goal of improving the lives of those who suffer. We hope those we upset will find it in their hearts to work toward the goal of a kinder world for all, regardless of species."

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/25858/edition_id/501/format/html/displaystory.html

It goes to show her lack of concern for anyone except herself and her cult (PETA) that it took her two years to apologise. What a disgrace! And people listen to this maniac!

Hi all

If it becomes possible to create "meat" with all the characteristics which you carnivores deem to be essential to get through life by scientific means rather than by butchering animals, why do you people have a problem with that? And there is quite an established school of thought that animal rights/cruelty will become the next great social justice issue (see the latest issue of papers from the Australian Law Reform Commission).

Perhaps "holocaust" at this time was a less than appropriate term, but it is just a word that was applied to a particular atrocity. The word does not have to be limited to one atrocity. Ms Newkirk qualified her statements very well, I thought. Is "genocide" more appropriate?

Yabby, far be it from me to fail to acknowledge how much you sheep farmers do for your animals. If you could raise them without spending a cent on them, you would and you know it. It has nothing to do with the welfare of the animals, it has to do with the pockets of the farmers. It's unfortunate and inconvenient in the extreme that you have to do things like "tailing", castrating and mulesing them and especially drenching them. You failed to include how much it costs to get them slaughtered; or packed off on a truck to God knows where.

PALE - sounds like so much more PALE claptrap to discredit any animal advocacy organization other than your own to me. Do get real.

Nicky

*It's unfortunate and inconvenient in the extreme that you have to do things like "tailing", castrating and mulesing them and especially drenching them.*

Funny you should say that, I am doing experiments with exactly
that, but not with merinos. What is wrong with animals living
naturally, if they live naturally in nature? However they will
always need feeding through droughts and lean times etc.

As to sending some to slaughter, I will always do that, for it
would be cruel not to. My animals would die from starvation from
overpopulation and I am not cruel to animals.

Losing a bit of skin here and there, well any outdoors type bloke
would do that regularly as part of his work. Some sooky pencil pushers
just don't understand that. We are not a bunch
of wimps, as you lot seem to be.

As to your opinion about what motivates us and what really does,
once again, you don't have the foggiest, just more ignorant
assumptions and then you actually believe your own crap.

As a matter of interest, as long as this place pays its own bills,
I am happy with that. Any profits are ploughed back in to improve
it, so its purely a lifestyle choice, I contribute the work for
free basically. I can make far more money on this computer on the
money markets, trading for an hour or two, then farming would ever
make. There are even benefits to that. Between times I can check
to see what crapola you girls have written yet once again. I
find it highly amusing :)

Hi there Nicky. Commiserations. I too succumbed to the flu - first in 20 years.

I do not intend to respond to the garbage which the debauched and sordid excuses for humanity have placed on this thread but simply to enlighten you to Yabby's deceitful swill about his industry, in an article on OLO: "Your Money or Your Health."

Have a look at the link below which I provided. The last few paragraphs will give you an insight into WA's agricultural "economic" strategies coupled with an aligned government and their disgraceful use of human faeces and hazardous waste, force-fed to animals through grazing, used on paddocks and finally consumed by humans.

More animal abuse - more human abuse!

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,15729670-2761,00.html

No wonder we feel ill!

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2240246.htm

There you go Dickie, a url from Pelican, who is an organic
veggie farmer. Its about the joys of using Sydney's waste
for compost!

She thinks that this is farm superior, compared to what
we normal farmers use, ie concentrated fertilisers.

No wonder you two veggies are both sick :)

Well said Yabby, but unfortunately falling on deaf ears.

See Nicky, this is why you can’t be taken seriously. Whether you accept it or not, you are also a carnivore even if you don’t eat meat.

As for animal rights/cruelty becoming the next great social justice issue, dream on. With clowns like you and dickie, cuphandle (what kind of username is that for a bloke?), Peta and Animals Australia dribbling rubbish, you’ll never be taken seriously. Look at the idiots, dole bludgers, and other clowns at the protests in Canberra over the culling of the roo’s. Do you honestly think that they were taken seriously? They were the laughing stock of the country.

You claim to be intelligent and yet you put your own “spin” on what Newkirk said about 'The Holocaust on Your Plate' Campaign. If Newkirk qualified her statements so well, why did she apologise two years later. Have another read about the nutcase Peta organisation.

http://www.animalrights.net/archives/year/2003/000052.html

Another contradiction by Newkirk:

Newkirk Agrees: Eating Meat in Moderation Can Be Healthy

http://www.animalrights.net/archives/year/2002/000306.html

"Tailing", castrating and mulesing.” I’ve tried to discuss this but it is obviously a subject that is too hard for you to understand.

P.S. I’m having a party and a big barbecue this weekend, I’ll be thinking of you all as I tuck into a couple of big steaks and some baby beef.

Is it just me or do others see similarities between Peta and Scientology. Propaganda, spin, lies and followed by a bunch of blinded dimwits. Definition of both organizations: CULTS!

"She thinks that this is farm superior, compared to what
we normal farmers use, ie concentrated fertilisers."

We "normal" farmers, Yabby?

You are not "normal" when your industry's "concentrated fertilisers" consisted of industrial hazardous wastes mixed with human sewage - a concoction of dioxins, heavy metals, carcinogenic hydrocarbons, pharmaceuticals, hospital contaminants and pathogens and God knows what else.

I am well informed on the ignominious operations of the Brookdale hazardous waste plant, its dumping of Class 4 and 5 hazards and the locations this muck was dumped. I have investigated this nightmare as a member of a government advisory committee.

So take your ignorant and fraudulent crap elsewhere Yabby.

*We "normal" farmers, Yabby?*

Yes Dickie, we normal farmers. Of the thousands of WA farmers,
most do much the same as I do. Use standard concentrated P and
K, then some N, although alot of that is supplied by legumes.

As I pointed out to you in the Landline article, those rejoicing
about human sludge, are in fact organic growers.

What the occasional farmer in WA did, is as much my responsibility as
it is yours what the occasional woman in WA did. Neither is
any of my business. Should I hold you accountable for every
fruitcake female in WA? (apart from yourself of course ) :)

Dickie, you seem to be so terrified about what you eat, best
you give up eating altogether, so that you cannot be poisoned
by us evil people!

As my evidence shows, organic farmers love sludge. So off you
go and eat a bit more recycled sludge and pay a premium for it,
for the food which us normal farmers produce, is clearly simply not good
enough for you.

Hi all

Dickie, that is scary stuff indeed, but certainly not beyond the realms of what agriculture is prepared to do to turn a profit. Myopinion, I don't really think your egocentric, ill-informed, and bigoted views are worth dignifying with much of a comment, since you appear to be quite fixated on perpetuating animal abuse to the best of your (limited) ability. And it is your intellectual ability that is so noticeablly limited.

Conversely, the majority of people with whom I have been involved in animal advocacy work are degree-qualified professionals, and far from the "dole-bludgers" you accuse them of being.

You, on the other hand, are driven to the teachings of the amoral to justify what you do.

PETA and Scientology? I can see that you would be drawn to the latter, and totally uncomprehending of the former.

I'm sure you will enjoy your "barbecue", and the rotting, carcinogenic animal flesh inside you.

Nicky

"Conversely, the majority of people with whom I have been involved in animal advocacy work are degree-qualified professionals."

Plueese! Am I meant to be impressed? There is nothing worse than someone who has left university with a degree and think because they have it that they are actually smart. I have a friend who doesn't have a degree and earns over $250K a year. I earn over $200K a year but I don't have a degree, so put that in your pipe and smoke it! By the way I haven't farmed for over 10 years, but at least I can say I have done it, unlike you rabbit food eaters.

"PETA and Scientology? I can see that you would be drawn to the latter, and totally uncomprehending of the former."

Actually nicky I do understand those organizations and that is why I am so critical of them. You don't have to be rocket scientist or have a degree to know what they are about.

And what is your opinion of feral control of foxes, rabbits and cats?
Now that should be an interesting answer.

I read this the other night and thought maybe rodeo is cruel...

Spokane, WA has been the latest victim of an animal rampage in North America. A maddened 2,000-lb. bull, driven insane by the torture and taunts of a rodeo crowd, threw its rider, broke out of the ring and ran wild in the streets of Spokane!

The frenzied animal charged through the streets of this tiny town, easily out-weighing all the police cars on Spokane's puny force. Despite SHOTGUN BLASTS from Spokane's finest, it continued running, crunching a compact car like a Mountain Dew can in the process!

Amazingly, this out-of-control behemoth managed to escape into the woods! It made a break for it, and then got out to freedom! As of this writing, the huge rhinoceros-like creature is still at large, knocking over might redwoods and gigantic boulders in its total furor of destruction.

Police have asked Spokane residents to keep an eye out for the bull. The bull is 6'-4" tall, about 8-1/2' long, brick red with matted sweaty fur, razor-sharp hooves, and telltale buckshot scars on its monumental ass. It will be readily recognizable as a gigantic, hairy bovine creature snorting huge gusts of steam out of its bloodied snout like a demon from Hell's worst nightmare as it crushes automobiles, backhoes, small homes, freeway overpasses, and anything else that stands in its way.

If you DO encounter the bull, DO NOT try to confront it! Instead, play music of unearthly beauty on your violin that will soothe and charm the savage beast. When it is overcome with aesthetic emotions and subdued, hit it on the head with a shovel.

nicky, genocide is not an appropriate word because no one is trying to eliminate sheep,cattle etc. Similarly so with the holocaust, the intent of that was to wipe a particular race off the face of the earth, for no logical gain - only ideology.
I accept you do not like the thought of people eating animals, but the intent behind their deaths is completely different, and certainly not to eliminate them as a whole.

The use of such analogy by animal groups is pure propaganda, and I'm surprised so many take it unquestioningly. I'm sure they believe the end justifies the means, but truly such misinformation and lack of credibility can only eventually embarrass thinking supporters.

*and the rotting, carcinogenic animal flesh inside you.*

Written like a true fanatic Nicky, which is what you people
seem to be all about. Religious or philosophical, there is
little difference. Both are in denial about those parts
of their philosophies, for which they have no answers.

What you simply refuse to address, is the realities of nature
and evolution. Every species makes a living one way or another.
Herbivores do it, by converting low quality grasses and pastures
into nutrition on which they thrive, some predators make
a living by eating those herbivores. Change the balance and
those herbivores die slow, cruel deaths, starving to death.
Why that you think that its fine for animals to starve to death
in nature, or be ripped to bits by other predators, but wrong
for humans to eat them, you have yet to answer.

As to the "rotting flesh", I remind you that when you are on
the toilet, the smell is not of rose petals :) Things are
rotting inside you Nicky, just like anyone else.

Hi all

Rojo, Thank you. You are absolutely right in bringing down the tone of this a notch or two, and neither word is appropriate for the purposes of this argument.

Yabby, how would you describe the flesh of an animal that has been dead for some period in the process of being digested by another animal? I think it would certainly be rotting and it has been scientifically identified as carcinogenic.

Myopinion, you are indeed fortunate to be earning $200K, seemingly without any form of significant education, but money is not necessarily an indicator of "success" in terms of distinction, intelligence, discernment, real knowledge or what the snobs would describe as "breeding". My family would describe you, I suspect, as "nouveau riche" - and good luck to you. In some ways, I think my principles certainly hinder my earning capacity; there are things I would not do for any amount of money. I guess you do not place such limitations upon yourself. Hopefully, you will be able to leave this world satisfied with the person you have been. I hope I will be able to.

On a lighter note, I think that real "karma" would be for you people to have to face up to the animals you have used and abused in some massive 'judgment day'. I'd like to see that!

Cheers
Nicky

nicky - "My family would describe you, I suspect, as "nouveau riche" - and good luck to you."

nicky - "there are things I would not do for any amount of money. I guess you do not place such limitations upon yourself."

Haha, you leave yourself so open for criticism for the comments you make.

"Nouveau riche"?? What a broad statement considering you know nothing about me. Hardly "new rich" considering I come from a very old, established and wealthy family here in W.A. Success can mean many things to many people, wealth, amount of friends, how far you've gone in you occupation etc.

So you guess (assume) that I would do anything for money. Let me explain why you should never assume and why this is another one of your dumb statements.

I WOULD NOT FOR MONEY OR ANYTHING ELSE;
deal or sell drugs
become an animal liberationist
try and save 400 roo's when it won't make a difference
turn gay
try and preach to normal, intelligent people that they are always wrong and I am always right, like you and dickie do.
help Robert Mugabe if he was dying and I could save his life.
join Peta, Animals Australia or any other rabid animal liberationist cult.
pretend to be something other than myself.

That'll do for starters.

*I think that real "karma" would be for you people to have to face up to the animals you have used and abused in some massive 'judgment day'. I'd like to see that!*

What you Nicky are doing, is staying in denial about the reality of
nature. Its all touchy feely to you, all emotion, no reason.

You've clearly never observed close and in reality, what happens
when thousands of animals run out of food and start starving to
death. The slow, long, enduring pain and suffering. If you had,
your little amygdala would be scarred enough to start to accept
that reality. Instead, you go into denial, focus on the odd single
bull which did scar your amygdala. Bugger the tens of thousands,
that is how the mind works.

If there in fact was an animal judgement day, I bet you that my
animals would not choose regularly starving to death, as their
best option.

Reality does not go away, when you close your eyes and wish it
would, Nicky.

"I earn over $200K a year but I don't have a degree, so put that in your pipe and smoke it!"

By joves, Nicky - fancy that.

But how does one make a silk purse from a pig's ear?

dickie - "But how does one make a silk purse from a pig's ear?"

But how does one make a moron understand the reality of life, you being the moron dickie.

Oh Dickie, that's excellent! Have a look, if you get a minute, at Senate Estimates Rural and Regional Affairs, WA Greens Senator Rachael Siewert's EXCELLENT questions to the live export industry - May 26 (sorry I haven't got a link but when I find it I'll post it on Alexandra's thread).

Yabby, if you did not continue to keep breeding more animals than you can properly care for (sigh!) or possibly need, we would not be having this conversation (sigh!). You must be smoking what myopinion suggests I should smoke if you think that argument has any validity. Export them or starve them? Give us a break!

Nite all
Nicky

I am the founder of People For The Unethical Treatment Of Humans.

We agree with PETA that "a life of pain and suffering is worse than a quick death".

No animal suffers more than humans, as we are the only beast with the ability to contemplate our own pain and suffering, thereby exacerbating it exponentially.

The remedy we propose is Global Euthanasia.

When all humans have been killed, nobody will be able to cause any further pain or suffering to anyone.

Unlike myopinion, People For The Unethical Treatment Of Humans will do anything for money.
Make a substantial donation and we will "remove" any unwanted humans from your neighbourhood, workplace or home.

Let's purge the Earth of the monstrosity Man, and leave the animals alone, to claw, sting, bite and poison each other in peace.

Couldn't resist it. Shockadelic, please begin with the self-opinionated morons who cannot see that they are morons and cannot express themselves other than by insults. Even when they are the "nouveau riche" (despite their claims to the contrary; you can always pick 'em!)
Enjoy!

Nicky

*Yabby, if you did not continue to keep breeding more animals than you can properly care for (sigh!) *

Nicky dear, I don't breed them, they do it all by themselves. You
are a big girl now, you should understand these things.

*But how does one make a silk purse from a pig's ear?*

Innovation Dickie, but its not something that they learn at
university. I remind you that Bill Gates is a high school dropout.

At university they learn the basics of rational thought, the
basics of the scientific method, then they learn to answer
questions in the manner that delights the prof. If they
please him, they will pass their test and get their bit
of paper. A past girlfriend of mine took it a step further.
She gave her old prof the best head job that he had ever known
and passed her degree with flying colours!

Careful, Yabby.

You don't want the Thought Police at OLO censoring your posts for being "vulgar and offensive".

And you thought OLO believed in Free Speech.
They don't (or a silly little joke I posted today would still be listed).

Wait a hour and watch your post disappear.

All hail the Brave New World.
Seig Heil! Alhamdulillah!

I love Big Brother.

"A past girlfriend of mine took it a step further.
She gave her old prof the best head job that he had ever known
and passed her degree with flying colours!"

Ah Yabby you again expose yourself as an impotent old pervert, obsessed with sex. We're actually not interested in learning about the antics of the trollops you mix with nor are we interested in the antics of the other cowpokes poking in the pasture and their depraved obsession with zooerastia.

The grotesque perversity is leeching from your personality Yabby which is morally degrading. You are an impressionable misfit, having descended to the level of the other unhinged misfits here.

Perverts who violate the laws of nature, with an obsession for zooerastia and slappers who sell their bodies for fake degrees will never ascend their lowly station.

And while I would not allow the moral pygmies on this thread, anywhere near my animals, I certainly would not allow them near my children either.

dickie – “nor are we interested in the antics of the other cowpokes poking in the pasture and their depraved obsession with zooerastia.”

Why? Is it embarrassing for you that an organization that you support won’t deny that they don’t support bestiality. Let me again list a quote here from Ingrid Newkirk on bestiality:

"If a girl gets sexual pleasure from riding a horse, does the horse suffer? If not, who cares? If you French kiss your dog and he or she thinks it's great, is it wrong? We believe all exploitation and abuse is wrong. If it isn't exploitation and abuse, it may not be wrong."

I would say that the obsession with bestiality is with the hierarchy of Peta. If they didn’t support it, why don’t they come out and say they don’t support it! Duuhh! It’s not hard to say is it? But they don’t say that because deep down they bloody support it and you support them. What a bloody circus! You people who put yourselves on the high moral pedestal are a bunch of cynical hypocrites who have got such boring lives you fill your days with this crap! The reality of the situation is this; you are such a small minority with your heads shoved so far where the sun doesn’t shine, you’ve lost sight of the facts. You idea of the world is surreal NOT real!

Isn’t it funny how after reading some of these threads, you and nicky agree with hardly anyone about anything and you have about as much support as a Jew selling bagels in Gaza.

Damn I’m hungry after writing that, I might have a feed of some lamb chops.

You've got a flatbed scanner, you've got a cat. Once you run out of old porno magazines to scan in, what are you going to do? That's right. The cat!

At first glance, this site looks like some kind of insanely inhumane kind of deal with pictures of cats all contorted and meowing and miserable, but then you realize the Cat Scan Contest is just that: cats on flatbeds scanners! Nobody gets hurt, everybody goes home happy and the cats just lose a little bit of dignity. You gotta love technology.

So here's the deal: this guy has this site where you can (or could; the "first" cat scan contest is finished, check the site for details on when the second will begin) send in photos of your cat squashed against the scanner glass. It's a really simple but hilarious idea; all the cats look really angry and sort of sad that they're squashed up against the glass of a flatbed scanner. It's a really good way to get back at cats for their haughty attitudes, I think. There are millions of entries to look through, and the winner got a bunch of junk like some software and whatnot.

Almost as funny as the actual pictures of the flat cats, though, is the explanation of how the entries will be judged, including "Style: does the cat's squashed hair make an interesting pattern?" and "Form: does the cat's squashed body look like a pear, or a pile of dough?" There are also some hints for making good squashed cat scans, like this one: "KEEP THE F*_*_NG LIGHT OUT OF THE CAT'S EYES."

You know the drill. Scanner. Cat. Go.

myopinion,
I cant say I agree with you on rodoes or the roos.

After saying that you and I probably could put ourselves in the place of a person seeing nothing other than cruelty to animals.

I have always said the bottom line is a 'persons intentions.'

I would like to go back and comment on the apology regarding the Campaign angered Holocaust survivors.


I suppose one ought not raise this again but may I say I dont think Ingred would have meant to do anything other than raise awareness of the dreadful suffering of animals.

Those people who were so offended should also be the "first to relate to injustice and have compassion."

Is there a law somewhere that says peoples suffering is worse than animals suffering.?

Is there a law somewhere that says its insulting to compare the suffering of animals to that of humans? Because if there is it is wrong.

To a large degree we humans bring on our own problems . ie Fighting over whos God is best power money greed etc.

Animals on the other hand a totally inncocent of these sins and truely Gods most beautiful creatures. We only share this earth with animals and we only think we are superior IMOP.

Throughout the world millions of fellow creatures suffering daily at the hands of people.

Yet mostly the Church Leaders sit in silence. Then they pounce on someone who says something thats deemed offensive.

Whatever is said, where ever it is said ,- if it is said for the right intention I think it probably passed the real ruler of the earth.

After having said that I cant say Gods done much of a job to protect his most beautiful creatures. So I guess that leaves me somwhat at odds with everybody including him.

Its hilarious how they are scared of bird flue and other diseases that 'they' manufactered through cruelty to animals- but yet its never occured to them to ban intensive farming.

Maybe thats what its meant by - Reep what you sew.

My opinion,
Nobody has all the answers yet we have found PETA to be extraordinary TBO.

Now PETA say on their web site as well as others= Ban Live Animal Export trade and replace it with chilled only.

We looked at the history of animal welfare in Australia which also included PETA.

What we found missing was a project to do just that,- divert live to chilled.

We wondered why because it seemed the obvious thing to do.

So we decided to work on that side of the problem as nobody else was doing it.

We wrote to PETA and Animals Australia expressing interest to discuss promoting Free Fange in place of intensive and local slaughter instead of live exports

PETA refused to reply. They "refused" to even speak on a phone to staff... PETA hung in people’s ears.

Why did PETA 'refuse' to discuss a project to unite farmers with ME buyers to reopen abattoirs?

Mind you it’s not just PETA

Hugh Wirth for eg,is the President of WSPA and X President of RSPCA but still President on Victoria. Wouldn’t you know it "he too" refused to discuss this project.

This is despite the fact we work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD?

Now its mighty interesting Hugh`s and other your handle with care mob have contacted the very people you 'refused 'to meet "with at our invitation for years.

Anybody who has read these threads will see the attacks against our organization (even extending the personal attacks) Why?= because we decided to try to address the answer instead of the problem.

Nicky being the number one against our organization. I believe that person to be Suzanne Caz of Tasmania despite the denials.


We are just wondering WHY these people put on their sites *replace live with *chilled yet *attack the only people working hard to do *just that*.'

Is Animal Welfare all about fund raising? Is it in fact a political front for fund a raiser?

What’s you excuse Ingrid?

Hi all

Myopinion, your lack of intelligence and discernment becomes more and more obvious. You fixate on one thing one person from PETA MAY have said (you provide no reference for that "quote") and attribute that to everyone involved in the animal advocacy movement. As for the cat and flatbed scanner rubbish, I can find no relevance in anything so ridiculous and puerile.

PALE, you were doing so well with your first post, and for once, I largely agreed with you. Then you went on and ruined it to re-hash all the same old bitter claptrap. If you really think I am Suzanne - good on you, and thanks for that. Keep thinking that if you wish, I couldn't care less, and Suzanne probably would care just as little if she knew. Have you told her that she has an alter-ego? Or is it "Debbie" you are confused over?

Only you know the real reasons why these people (PETA, Hugh Wirth, Animals Australia, Animal Liberation, WSPA, Handle with Care are the ones you have named at various times, and that's just about everyone) chose not to work with you, but there is certainly a common thread there, is there not? Could it possibly be your attitude? I've actually heard recently, after making a few enquiries, that people have moved house and changed their telephone numbers to get away from you.

It is hardly reasonable to accuse the whole world of being misguided when it appears that the problem is with PALE.

Nicky

Nicky
You lack knowledge within the industry.

You were asking Yabby the right questions but then- back to your old bible- Pity.

Try this next time.= Easytimes =I do not agree with your opinion and this is why= Instead of your an idiot etc.

Your 'very naive' Nicky.

You trust in the great leaders a hundred percent? Despite NO results other than millions of dollars of funds being raised for YEARS! 'I dont'

' We suspect Animal Welfare is extremely political'.



We looked at Hugh and listended while you all complain about him for 20 years. Only to except him as your world leader?

I question his motives? Suspect they go beyond his huge ego?

IMOP hes a Government trouble shooter or watch dog.- Dog being the key. 'Personally' do I trust RSPCA National for the same reasons.

We looked at Andrew too - gaining votes for himself through Animal Welfare and PASSING those votes onto ALP for years?

We look at him and all of the others and questioned WHY they never in twenty years prior to us even once contacted the Muslim Leaders?

Maybe its just poor leadership but whatever it is its not good enough- We suspects its more TBO.

I must thank you however of written confirmation of the person who used the name of our organisation as her own name complete with a donation button to be hideing from us.

The fraud squad will be delighted with this evidence Nicky.

TBO I wasnt going to bother but as you have made it so easy. Tar.



Getting back to Ingreds comments. Cant see much wrong with them myself except that animals STILL suffer this treatment.

'I am offended 'that people complained. Small minded people who clearly could not care LESS that this suffering is 'still going on'.
Suffering is suffering be it people or animals NO DIFFERENCE

I will stand by Ingred on 'that one.

Australias cruelty to Animals is being encouaged by the RUDD Government.
The milky bar kid whos not short of a quid but terrible short on MORALS

Nicky

I have to rush to feed my horses so a quick one.
Dont be so quickly brain washed against us. Sure we are the enermy Nicky. Yup they apparently hate us. Mind you this was even before we worked with Muslim leaders.
Ask yourself this and be honest to yourself. If they all say replace live with chilled yet turn and attack the lone group working a "programe to implement that with farmers and Muslim Leaders what does that tell you? Arnt you just the slightest suspicious.

If they rejected new kids on the block complete with six lawyers as members who offered to help freee of charge ( one being a QC- what does that tell you?
It either means that= As they All provided in writing reopening plants to faze out live is NOT on their agenda. So WHY have it on their web sites?
I am talkng outside scool here but you might like to know the very last meeting of AFIC brought in a agreeement to go to Congress to Ban Live Exports.

Here is a short copy of just a few words to myself from Ikabel the evening before AFIC closed.

"But one thing that we did yesterday was passed a motion that AFIC believed that live animal trade is inherently cruel and that we will be lobbying to put a stop to this.
Now nicky thats through PALES years of hard work with AFIC not AA or Hugh.
All Hugh has done going through the back door is create HUGE problems as Halal Meat is very important and so are MOUs.

Hugh actions have hindered the Animals NOT helped and his behavoiur as well as AA is under a careful eye.

Its a matter of record we invited Hugh and AA for YEARS to join us working under our MOU with Muslim Leaders.

Heads are going to role and we have questions for Hugh to answer

HOWEVER - We will only do whats best for Animals.
We ARE NOT INTERESTED IN POLITCS _ JUST ANIMAL WELFARE.
Your move Hughy.

Hi all

PALE, I can only say yet again (SIGH!) that I have no idea why the other organizations, Andrew (Bartlett, I assume) and Hugh Wirth chose not to work with you.

But I can assure you that I do not lack "knowledge of the industry", if you can call animal advocacy an "industry". There is nothing naive about noting that for all its claims over its 8 (?) years of existence PALE appears to have achieved nothing, just as it accuses all the others of the same (yet it is they who have provided irrefutable evidence that I believe will ultimately be the key to stopping the trade).

I also remind you that I never said that I accepted Hugh Wirth as a leader of anything, but if he can achieve some success here then good luck to him. The role of President of WSPA is a rotating position, not one he won through a merit process.

Your next comment is totally incomprehensible, and I cannot begin to imagine what the fraud squad will make of it. I can't wait to find out though. I don't know what TBO is.

"I must thank you however of written confirmation of the person who used the name of our organisation as her own name complete with a donation button to be hideing (sic) from us.

The fraud squad will be delighted with this evidence Nicky.

TBO I wasnt going to bother but as you have made it so easy. Tar".

As I said - I can't wait.

As for this ...
"Here is a short copy of just a few words to myself from Ikabel the evening before AFIC closed.

"But one thing that we did yesterday was passed a motion that AFIC believed that live animal trade is inherently cruel and that we will be lobbying to put a stop to this".

If they have "closed", what on earth use is this to anyone? And is this not the man whom you claim you hung up a phone on?

Nicky

Hi all

To continue from the last.

PALE, when did AFIC "close"? And if that is the case, with whom is Hugh Wirth and/or all your other "enemies" seeking to meet "behind PALE's back"?

I'm fascinated to know whose heads are going to "role" (sic) too, and at whose instigation.

As a matter of curiosity, is PALE an incorporated organization, and does it have an ABN? How many members does it have, and does it still have six lawyers including a QC working for it?

How many slaughterhouses has PALE succeeded in re-opening and where are they?
How many shipments/consignments of animals has PALE stopped from being exported live?
How many farmers has PALE set up as "co-joint" ventures (isn't that term redundant? It should be either "co" OR 'joint", not both)

I emailed RSPCA Queensland as you suggested asking about that submission on the proposed Standards/Guidelines, but got no response. Could you ask them if I might have a copy please, since they are clearly ignoring my request?

Nicky

Hi all

PALE, I can only say yet again (SIGH!)
Nicky

We have our own thoughts as to why Hugh never once responded to our i project working with Muslim Leaders to faze out live exports and replace with chilled.

As you said- You have no idea. Well Nicky IMOP its hardley good enough whatever Hughs reasons.

I dont trust the man. You are free to come to your own conclusion.
Your comment below=
But I can assure you that I do not lack "knowledge of the industry", if you can call animal advocacy an "industry".
pale replies.
Nicky you misunderstood me . I meant the meat industry. In order to fix the problem its vital to have people who understand the meat industry as well working with you.

I am afraid the two goes toghter and you cant sort one without the other. What goes on within the meat industry of course effects the animals welfare.
This is what I meant.

Your comment=
The role of President of WSPA is a rotating position, not one he won through a merit process.

Nicky Hugh been President of WSPA for years!
Your questions=

How many shipments/consignments of animals has PALE stopped from being exported live?

The Answer is some Nicky. However no where near enough to stop the trade. That takes a united approach and your friends including Hugh of WSPA and AA voiceless refuse to help.

If you want every plant and contact email Antje struthmann at pale.
Its too long and complicated to post here.

We helped AFIC and the Maylasian Government resume chilled which saw three plants re accredited and others etc.

Nickysaid

PALE, when did AFIC

Palecomments
I find it hard to believe you would know about AFIC. Its been on the news and the front page of the Australian.

'Hugh' was trying to meet with AFIC and Ikabel etc.

Remember he was asked to do just that for YEARS working under a MOU for Animal Welfare.
So Hugh what is it that you dont wish to say in front of us?

You had twenty years to approach the Muslim Leaders Hugh but did nothing? Why such interests now?



Nicky said
I'm fascinated ....
Palereplies

Personally I am looking at Hugh and RSPCA National AA etc

Nicky said
As a matter of curiosity,
...
Palereplies
Yes to both.



Pale working together with Muslims have made a dent in overseas transferring their orders from live to chilled. "Much more" to be done.
We could have done a great deal more towards diverting the orders from live to chilled but PETA WSPA and AA 'refused' to help. As you can imagine it’s a big job working alone for a reasonable new group.

Nicky said
I emailed RSPCA Queensland ...

Pale Comments.

Nicky I know they are very busy and understaffed. I also said to you in another thread when Ikabel and myself several years ago sat up into the late hours to send a sub RSPCA QLD finally said its was usually lodged by RSPCA National on behalf of all states as a united thing?

'I did point that out to you on purpose.'

I also offered you a copy of what pale and AFIC put together but I cant post it on olo so its up to you.

Some of the tracking and other ideas were quite good from AFIC etc.

The answer to your other question= Nicky its quite illegal to use someones name as your own when raising funds.
Never bothered TBO in chasing that person because I know despite that the person 'does care' about the animals.


Mind you I suppose thats a bit slack because we would be reasonsible for any funds raised etc.

Hi all

PALE, quite a bit of that is incomprehensible again. WHEN did this submission happen? Is it the 2003 submissions? I read all of those.

I have absolutely no idea whom you suspect of raising funds using someone else's name, so if you are accusing someone you should say so.

I think that the smartest thing I can do is to try Hugh Wirth himself (he probably won't respond to me either) to get to the bottom of all this.

Nicky

Hi all
Here is the sort of reason why people should have commented on the proposed Standards/Guidelines for "Animal Welfare":-

"Animals’ Angels inspectors trail a routine sheep transport from Katanning saleyard in West Australia to a feedlot near Adelaide in South Australia. The sheep destined for slaughter were sourced perhaps from a farm, transported to the saleyard, sold at a saleyard, then loaded and transported again; all without water and feed-a process of over 74 hours".

"In WA the animals must not be transported for more than 30 hours without water. The journey time alone was 52 hours. There are also problems with differences in WA law and South Australian law which allow different transport/water deprivation times. The WA driver was reluctant to assist two downer sheep and it appears clear it was these two who died along with some other sheep on the way. Luckily the

"Police arrived while the driver parked at the border for 6 ½ hours- the sheep standing in the hot transport crate without much air flow. The Police were excellent help and made sure the dying sheep was killed efficiently as possible. Only 1 driver at a time transports the animals, which is of great concern especially if there is an accident. During the WA border to Adelaide-SA period the SA driver was very ill and asked Animals’ Angels to get him an ambulance then take care of the sheep and dogs while he went to hospital. This delay put extra pressure on the already stressed animals. Some died as a result of the WA-SA transportation. We will be taking our full investigation to the proper authorities".

Animals Angels

Of course, as detailed in the Handle with Care report, there is no proper policing of these journeys, and no provision in the proposals for any improvements; in fact they are worse than the existing CoPs (also enforceable).

http://www.liveexportshame.com/news2/index.php?topic=4473.msg5374;topicseen#msg5374

Nicky

Ah Nicky, clearly those sheep would have been much better off, if
they had been transported by boat! Food, water, shelter, plus
a lovely view outside. Enough space to lie down and have a snooze
too.

But of course you are unable to look at these things in any kind
of objective way, due to your cultish, philosophical bias.

Nicky - "Of course, as detailed in the Handle with Care report, there is no proper policing of these journeys, and no provision in the proposals for any improvements; in fact they are worse than the existing CoPs (also enforceable)."

Nicky, I have a question for you since you're so intelligent and have such far reaching "hands on" experience in the handling of sheep and cattle. How many sheep and cattle do you think are transported around Western Australia, 24hrs a day, seven days a week? Then how many do you think are transported around the NT and Queensland and then take in the other States. Now that you have that scenario in your head, work out how many people you would need to possibly police or check on all of these stock movements. Now work out how many people you would need to check on just 25 per cent of these stock movements. This without taking in the transporting of goats, horses and pigs.

This is why statements like what is made above are ridiculous, laughable and totally lacking in common sense. Then again most of your arguments are lacking in common sense and lateral thinking.

Nicky said

PALE, quite a bit of that is incomprehensible again. WHEN did this submission happen? Is it the 2003 submissions? I read all of those.

Pale replies
Nicky I cant help it if you cant follow and we walk on different streets but hopefully to reach the same destination.
'No' the last ones. You didnt read the subs put together by Muslim Leaders and ourselves Nicky. Simply because RSPCA QLD said the subs were lodged by RSPCA Nationally as a rule as an over all aproach.
However the subs were sent regardless and lodged from AFIC PALE RSPCA QLD. Feel free to ask Antje for a copy. Use another name if you prefer as you seem more comfortable working that way.

Nicky said
I have absolutely no idea whom you suspect of raising funds using someone else's name, so if you are accusing someone you should say so.

Pale replies= Nicky you were the one who raised the subject of this friend of yours or persom moving house to make sure pale did not know how to contact them. I simple reponded with the truth and the facts of why that person might not wish to be found- Mind you if I took a mind to do so it would be a different story Lets forget it.

If I were so concerned I have had six years to do something but I believe in my heart that person cares for animals so I am not about to do someone over who works also to help animals. Its murpherys law I guess I dont mind murphey TBO. I am pretty easy going like that.
Nicky said
I think that the smartest thing I can do is to try Hugh Wirth himself (he probably won't respond to me either) to get to the bottom of all this.
Pale replies
Oh Beleive me Nicky we are. In that way I am NOT easy going.
If it effects the animals hell has no fury . You can take that as gospel!

Yabby,
Animals Angels have done a fastatic job and TBO I wouldnt be half as cross as I get if other groups were to get more involved in this type of operation.
I think even you would say ok its fair if these are people breaking the rules of your proud guidelines giving others a bad name you would want them dealt with too.
After all wasnt it you in the past who pointed out to Nicky it was only a few rough operators breaking the rules to give you good guys a bad name?
So I am sure you will join pale in suporting Animal Angels who are a fantstic and well educated and balanced bunch of people wont you?
myopinion,
I would like to comment on your remark to Nicky if I may.
So what you have just agreed it is ridiculous that we could ever police long haulage of Animals especially in these numbers.

I agree with you totally which is why we must reopen abattoirs and slaughter as RSPCA recomend as close to place of origen as possible.

Its not rocket science after all.
Australia needs to wakeup to itself and do its own value adding anyway.

PALE - "it is ridiculous that we could ever police long haulage of Animals especially in these numbers."

CORRECT!

Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH (Last Ditch Lil):

"If the member is asking me whether I would weaken the act in any way, shape or form, I do not intend to do that. I intend to work to strengthen the act to achieve better animal outcomes. I also intend to take a very practical approach to the issue of ensuring that sheep that are susceptible to this particular non-feeding do not go onto the ships.

"....................
"....................

"As I understand it, 70 per cent of sheep deaths on those ships are because of the shy feed.........." (March '08)

Hi Nicky

Do you believe we will now see a 70% reduction in sheep mortalities anytime soon?

"Ah Nicky, clearly those sheep would have been much better off, if
they had been transported by boat! Food, water, shelter, plus
a lovely view outside. Enough space to lie down and have a snooze
too."

This old lag's forgotten about the 40,000 tipped overboard so it's more yabbawanky from our leering leftovers and I see that despite the Pig Ear's promise to return to his subterranean cavern, he, bewitched by his own hubris and between hissy fits, continues to grace us with his pernicious presence.

Aw shucks - perhaps we have a couple of secret admirers even if they are scurvy dogs - (oops apologies to the canine family.)

dickie (is this short for d---head?) - "This old lag's forgotten about the 40,000 tipped overboard so it's more yabbawanky from our leering leftovers and I see that despite the Pig Ear's promise to return to his subterranean cavern, he, bewitched by his own hubris and between hissy fits, continues to grace us with his pernicious presence."

subterranean cavern = 220 square house on two acres = value $1.6 million and paid for, haha!

Apart from your pathetic attempts to belittle Yabby and myself, you still won't answer our relative questions. Instead of trying to find more jargon and longer words on the online dictionary, why don't you try and answer the question that I asked nicky.

Sheesh Dickie, only 3'960'000 healthy sheep of the 4'000'000.
How tragic! Time to get your knickers in a twist once again!

Our prophet of gloom, who barely knows one end of a sheep
from the other, wants to pass informed comment about things
she just does not understand. Qualified livestock vets
understand all this of course, but not a few vegan old tarts.

The glass is 99% full yet Dickie still complains!

Some old tarts simply can't be helped. That is exactly why
Govts take no notice of extremists like yourself and Nicky.

Hi again all

Dear me, how tragic is myopinion that he/she feels the need to use abuse to try and win the unwinnable, and tasteless bragging to try and make us believe that he/she is a worthwhile human being. I'll tell you what, if you ask nicely, I might tell you how big my house is and what it is worth/ My car too.

Anyone who thinks that the fact that these transports are not adequately policed is acceptable is in the grip of severe and clearly irrevocable moral decay. The logistics of that are irrelevant, since these are "industries" who are pretending to give a toss about the welfare of these animals. And it is equally fatuous of the ever-reliable Yabby to pretend that they would be better off on a ship (for two to three weeks!), being sent to be brutalized half way around the world. But such is the sad mentality of these people.

Perhaps the key word in the Animals Angels article is that this was a "routine" journey. But myopinion and Yabby might have missed that. Also, myopinion, I did answer your questions, insofar as I'm prepared to argue that with you, if you check back.

Dickie, do you by any chance know what date Ravlich made that immortal quote? And do you think they give a toss about the 40,000 who die on the ships?

PALE IF you are referring to the 2003 submissions, I read the ones submitted by PALE (the several of them), the RSPCA, AFIC, and whole lot of others too. Some were good, some bad, but it's 2003 we are talking about. I think the best one I found was from a Tasmanian group because it dealt with the issues at hand, and did not try to push its own agenda (HKM as was the case with the PALE/AFIC stuff). As I said, with those things, you have to comment on what IS there, not what isn't.

What, besides that ONE media release has AFIC had to say since? I have emailed Hugh Wirth. so that will be interesting.

Nicky

PALE, I forgot. The person to whom I was referring was in South Australia. I suspect you have a number of people confused with one another.

Nicky

Nicky you’re pathetic at debating and this is why. This is what you have said:
“how tragic is myopinion that he/she feels the need to use abuse”.

You and your dingbat offsider started it and now you can’t handle it. You pile sh-t on me and I’ll shovel it faster back on you. If you can’t handle the heat then get out of the kitchen. Oh I forgot you only eat rabbit food so you probably haven’t got a kitchen.

Isn’t it amazing that cults, religious sects, dictatorships and extremist organizations always use slogans as part of their propaganda? Their followers always follow suit and use them as well, painting their arguments in melodramatic and emotive words to emphasise and exaggerate their points.

For everyone’s entertainment let’s look at some of the propaganda slogans that you and dickie have used in this thread, and I have corrected your spelling mistakes.

“fallacious and hysterical account of the true picture.”
“whilst they are incarcerated in a steel crush, bellowing in pain.”
“to the horrendous actions supported and/or perpetrated by the rash of inhumane "myopinions" who are driven by greed to suppress vital information.”
“animal cruelty practitioner”
“gazing around in bewilderment at their first experience of fresh air, sunshine and green grass.”
“in sow stalls swaying, gnawing on metal bars and screaming their misery and deprivation.”
“cruel indifference to and a relish for the atrocious practices of the industries”
“expense of tormented animals”
“roustabout’s, armed with searing irons, knives, mechanical contraptions to force open a cow's vaginal passage to hack off her ovaries and shears to hack off cattles', sheep and pigs' testicles, crudely slice through an incarcerated animal's exterior”
“cruel surgical procedures and the endless agony”
“sordid brothers are responsible for Australia's poor reputation and the loss of trading partners overseas.”
“that a nation which tortures its animals is morally repugnant and has no future.”
“the debauched and sordid excuses for humanity have placed on this thread”
“driven to the teachings of the amoral to justify what you do.”
“rotting, carcinogenic animal flesh inside you.”

Continued…..

"Dickie, do you by any chance know what date Ravlich made that immortal quote?

Nicky, 19/03/08 - Questions on Notice - Hansard.

More Questions on Notice soon. Unable to copy from WA Parliament site. Responses from Last Ditch Lil should be up for viewing soon.

Cheers

Ah Dickie's melodrama, nearly good enough for another Mills and Boons
tear jerker, trying to create perceptions in gullible readers minds!
Of perhaps, given her total lack of knowledge about livestock, she
might well believe her own rubbish.

Nicky, you are nearly as bad. According to your language, I would
have "brutalised" 180 innocent poor little lambs this morning,
certainly in your mind.

Fact is they were meat lambs, fighting and kicking all the way.
You could not have done the job of catcher, for they were tough,
strong, full of energy lambs. You would have landed up black and
blue and soon given up lol. Even the bloke doing the catching,
as big as 2-3 of you girls put together, was struggling.

But in your mind of course, these "poor, meek, timid little darlings"
were "brutalised". Housewifely perceptions I call them, for they
have little to do with reality.

Fact is that as long as we handle, farm and eat livestock, you
will accuse us of being "evil brutes". Never mind, that if left
up to nature, they would starve to death. Never mind that if left
up to nature, they would be ripped apart alive by various predators.
Never mind, that they now have far happier and healthier lives then
they would ever have in nature, its just those evil farmers that
are the problem. The brutes. Such simplistic fantasy.

Posted by my opinion

PALE - "it is ridiculous that we could ever police long haulage of Animals especially in these numbers."

CORRECT!

Myopionion

I see we agree once more... “Great”. Now lets talk about suggestions put by buyers and others with an interest in this industry to fix this
Myopinion
Err, Could you explain what is incorrect about these comments pls and why you feel this? =
In sow stalls swaying, gnawing on metal bars and screaming their misery and deprivation.”
Pale thinks myopinion has never visited an intensive farm. Otherwise you would know that is %100! Correct.

Yabbysaid
Government’s takes no notice of extremists...
Palecomments
Yabbs the Government took enough notice to stage the biggest porky ‘ever’ on Landline. Note you didn’t respond to my comment about catching the bad guys. I take it you agree with me as usual :)

Nickysaid
PALE If you are referring to the 2003 submissions

Palereplies
No. I was not... Just codes of practice.

Nickysaid
What, besides that ..
Pale replies

Umm, the biggest so far is to vote to go to congress to lobby against live exports. That’s far more than our Christian Churches have discussed. ‘However’ Hugh’s caused ‘big problems’

Halal meat plays a enormous part in Muslims lives. AFIC will go to court now. (Afew weeks) Possibly they will then hold another election in about six months. (Depends, on the outcome of the case). Or, its possible Ikebal will return.. Mean time it’s in care taker mode.

Nicky said
I have emailed Hugh ….
Palecomments
Hope you get a reply. Good on you!
Nickysaid
. I found was from a …

Palereplies
Yes that one was the ‘best’ – I thought

.However, give them a break. They were sincere.. Lets face facts .. That was their first.

Regardless, they have the contacts to really make a difference. We all need help at times to follow protocol in new territory.
Perhaps yourself and Dickie might assist them next time.
The invitation has always been there.

Please consider - but NOT like Hugh because THAT ISNT a Help!

Dear me. It appears that myopinion has again lost control and is experiencing another hissy fit. Have a look at all the trouble he's gone to gathering "incriminating" evidence against those who love to bait him - which, due to his retardation, is very easy.

I do believe this bigot's been up half the night, venting his spleen and whipping himself into a frenzy.

Nevertheless, as my Mum used to advise: "Try and see good in everyone", so perhaps this misfit is assisting us in allowing posters to again read the cold facts of animal cruelty in Australia.

No doubt the following excerpt the bigot provided will again remind posters of the utterly barbaric atrocities Australian sheep and cattle owners inflict on their animals:

“roustabout’s, armed with searing irons, knives, mechanical contraptions to force open a cow's vaginal passage to hack off her ovaries and shears to hack off cattles', sheep and pigs' testicles, crudely slice through an incarcerated animal's exterior."

Thank you so much myopinion. Now should you be denying these atrocities occur, it is up to you to shut up or put up any evidence to the contrary. You will need to cease your inane dribbling, keep both hands on the keyboard and say something relevant to the subject.

I've already provided dozens of industry links substantiating these claims. In fact so many it made the Yabby very nervous which got his knickers in a twist where he even suggested I was "over googling."

Of course it's well documented that subterranean rodents detest seeing the light of day and endeavour to scurry back to their burrows - eh sorry - with the exception of the ground hog's "220 square house on two acres = value $1.6 million and paid for, haha!"

Could anyone provide a bucket please?

*In fact so many it made the Yabby very nervous which got his knickers in a twist where he even suggested I was "over googling."*

Hehe Dickie, it just shows how posters like yourself, with a
vivid imagination, can get their own knickers in a twist,
by their own imaginings.

Fact is that when a well informed poster like say Rojo posts
a link, its usually worth the bother to read it and understand
his point of reason. With so called "Googloholics" as yourself,
who frantically post huge numbers of links in a desparate attempt
to justify themselves, most of the time its just not worth the
bother to even read them, for the quality is about as low
as the desparation of the poster.

So rather then get nervous, your crap is usually ignored to
a large degree.

Fact is that I don't know a single beef farmer who hacks out cows
ovaries and I don't know a single sheep farmer who hacks off
lambs testicles.

They might well exist somewhere, I really don't know and its not
really my problem. Just as you are not responsible for the actions
of every female in Australia, I am not responsible for the actions
of every farmer in Australia.

If cruelty exists, we have plenty of organisations in Australia,
such as the RSPCA, the vets association etc, to point it out and
to change things. The thing is, they need to be qualified people,
who know what its all about and who pass informed comment,
not just vegan ignoramousus such as yourself, who wear out their
google bars in desparation.

"Fact is that I don't know a single beef farmer who hacks out cows
ovaries and I don't know a single sheep farmer who hacks off
lambs testicles."

Fact is Yabby who cares? You don't have any friends. Fact is Yabby, your whole world revolves around "I, me and myself."

Fact is Yabby, you, in typical fashion, are lying - you are a cheat. That fact was established long ago.

The link on sheep castration is for Western Australia - right in your territory.

And you farm sheep? You must be the village idiot.

And thank you once again Yabby for confirming that the facts we present here are indisputable and they cannot be corrupted.



http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/pastoral_sheep.pdf

http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/nccaw/guidelines/livestock/spaying

Hi all
This is information from the WA CoP from Dickie's link.

Acceptable methods of castrating male lambs, without anaesthesia, are:

Cutting - The lamb should be properly restrained and the knife/cutting instrument kept clean and sharp. Good post-operative drainage of the wound is required.

Rubber rings applied according to the manufacturer's recommendation.
Emasculators or spermatic cord crushing instruments used according to the manufacturer's recommendations.

Castration, vasectomy or the induction of cryptorchidism (the re-positioning of the testicles into the abdomen) of rams over six months of age should not be performed without the use of an anaesthetic.

_____________________________

Cattle spaying
Flank spaying involves entering the abdomen through a cut made in the flank of the animal. When performed without anaesthesia there is a level of pain and distress to the animal that is totally unacceptable. In nearly all instances this procedure is performed WITHOUT anaesthesia.

In heifers and undeveloped cows, passage spaying by hand is only possible with the aid of a mechanical device to spread the vaginal passage. This procedure inflicts extreme pain to the animal and causes irreparable damage to the vagina. The greater proportion of spaying is performed on undeveloped cattle where the procedure requires the use of spreaders.

Another method, the Willis Technique, is increasingly being used in the Northern Territory and Queensland. This method involves an operator placing his/her arm into the back passage of the calf and cutting the ovaries out. Again, no analgesia or anaesthesia is used, and the operators must be highly skilled to avoid internal damage and infections.

None of these ‘proceedures’ is performed using anaesthetic or analgesic follow-up. Rarely are they carried out by veterinary surgeons; most being undertaken by unqualified untrained workers.

The Willis technique is "preferred" because recovery time is shorter - and, you guessed it - the hide doesn't get damaged. (DAFF website)

Try these on yourselves and/or your kids and tell us if they are brutal or not. Go on!

Cheers
Nicky

*Fact is Yabby, you, in typical fashion, are lying - you are a cheat. That fact was established long ago.*

Another Dickie claim, not a scrap of evidence. As per usual.
Must be that air in the old peoples home getting to you once
again :) But yes, the memory does start to go, with you old
farts.

I guess we see the dangers of letting a couple of old tarts loose
with a google bar.

What A Govt dept says is acceptable and what farmers actually
do Dickie, can be two quite different things.

http://www.heiniger.com/elastrator/animal.cfm

That is what farmers use Dickie, just about right around the
world these days. Walk into any Landmark or Elders branch
and ask them, seeing that you don't know any farmers.

As for spaying cattle, did you read the bit about the NT?
Did you read the bit about contacting their animal welfare
people by email? Go right ahead. Argue it out with their
vets, who are more qualified in these things then you are.

As I said before, it just doesent happen around here.

*your whole world revolves around "I, me and myself." *

Quite correct Dickie, I am responsible for what I do, not
what you do.

Meantime I put 150 lambs into the feedlot paddock and they
got stuck into the oats. One died, it must have missed it's
injection. Ahhh, shock horror, my losses are nearly as
bad as on a boat, and that is after only 2 days!

*Try these on yourselves and/or your kids and tell us if they are brutal or not. Go on!*

Nicky, best that you go and comfort all those males who were
circumcised without anesthetic. They would still be traumatised
40 years later, the poor dears :)

.

Hi again all

Yabby, you have already said that you don't know what other farmers do. And I think you should put one of these rubber rings on yourself, and your kids, as should myopinion (as a public service to stop either of you from reproducing) and on an unrestrained Pitbull or Rottweiler (your choice) and see what happens.

Describing Dickie and me as "old tarts" when you have no idea of how old we are is a self-defence response because you cannot counter the facts we have detailed. Do you have reliable information about where Dickie lives? Or me, for that matter. All you can tell us is that you brutalized your own animals today. Well done. As for the RSPCA, between its reluctance to spend its money on animals and its internal corruption, we all know how fatuous that remark is, and the AVA is hardly impartial or objective, having commercial interests in animals as its members do. Monitoring? Enforcement? Compliance? Don't make us laugh.

PALE, I remain mystified about AFIC. I have no idea what court you refer to, or even what congress, unless it is its own, or what its purpose in these discussions is any longer. Nor do you enlighten us about what "harm" Hugh Wirth is supposed to have done (I always thought the man suffered from such permanent lethargy that he wouldn't be able to do too much harm, but I must be wrong.If AFIC has no-one in any form of authority, which seems to be the case from its website, how can anyone be negotiating with them, including PALE and the Handle with Care people?

Dickie, come back to the other thread too - your contributions are excellent. I found the Hansard entry (Ravlich) and have circulated it - thanks heaps for that.

Cheers
Nicky

More of the ravings of dickie and nicky:

“real ‘karma’ would be for you people to have to face up to the animals you have used and abused in some massive 'judgment day.”
“The grotesque perversity is leeching from your personality Yabby which is morally degrading. You are an impressionable misfit, having descended to the level of the other unhinged misfits here.”

The reason the vast majority of people don’t take any notice of people like you two is simple. You’re fanatical, obsessed, and the majority of your opinions are paranoid delusions. In other words, you’re jokes!

“The reason the vast majority of people don’t take any notice of people like you two is simple.”

So why are you myopinion? We’ve gone to great lengths to get rid of the moral pygmies here but you have a thick hide eh? You just wont leave us alone. Don’t you have anything better to do?

Now where is the evidence I requested for the following?:

“Now should you be denying these atrocities occur, it is up to you to shut up or put up any evidence to the contrary. You will need to cease your inane dribbling, keep both hands on the keyboard and say something relevant to the subject.”

So where is it? Couldn’t find any eh? I suggest you wipe the egg from your face.

So Yabby, you had to scurry off to google no doubt. You wouldn’t know an elastrator from your jock strap. You prefer to maim and slash. Why don’t you try an elastrator on your own scrotum? On seconds thoughts, I don't believe you have one.

Elastrator. “This is the least desirable method of castration. It is bloodless, but calves castrated in this manner are subject to tetanus (lockjaw) infection. Sometimes the rubber ring fails and voids the operation. The post-operative appearance produced by complete removal of the scrotum is objectionable to some producers. Do not use the elastrator on calves over one month old.” (Cattlenetwork.com)

I shall leave you sadists with some pretty pictures to gloat over. Enjoy the animal abuse but do keep your fantasies to yourself. We’d prefer not to listen to your rapturous shrieking and moaning.

http://www.vegsoc.org.au/downloads/WhyVegan-0404.pdf

Dickie –

You ask me to say “say something relevant to the subject.” What could anyone say that is relevant in you biased eyes? I have continued to state relevant facts here but you and your girlfriend nicky continue to treat them as irrelevant. Any links that anyone posts, that you two don’t agree with, you state are self serving, incorrect and lies. So don’t try and make out that you are actually interested in what I have to say, or what anyone else has to say that disagrees with you, because you’re not.

You make this statement – “that the facts we present here are indisputable and they cannot be corrupted.” One word to describe this statement made by you – CRAP!

You ask me "whether I have anything better to do?" Well anything would be better than reading the rubbish you write on this forum, but I find it amusing to torment idiots like you.

So after reading something about elastrators you're now a full blown 'expert'. You're an armchair expert dickie and always will be. Forums like this are your's and nicky's 15 minutes of fame.

Dickie –

Let’s look at the link that you have posted above. Hell isn’t that informative, now let’s dissect it.
The title is “Why Vegan” and then “Boycott cruelty – Go vegan.” Lo and behold the article is actually produced by the ‘Vegetarian/Vegan Society of Queensland’ and ‘Animal Liberation Queensland.’
Well this article wouldn’t be biased by any chance would it? It’s only compiled by people who don’t believe in ANY people eating meat of any kind. The other group involved believes in total liberation for animals, which means NO farming. Well there’s impartiality!
Let’s look at some of the quotes by some of the people in the article.

“...if the public knew more about the way in which agricultural and animal production infringes on animal welfare, the outcry would be louder.”
BERNARD E. ROLLIN, PhD
Farm Animal Welfare, Iowa State University Press, 1995.
Bernard Rollin is author of more than 150 papers and
10 books on ethics and animal science.

I would agree with what Rollin has said.

K.D. Lang – good singer but who cares what her opinion is regarding cattle. She’s a committed vegetarian, her choice, so she’s biased against eating meat.

Kangaroo Slaughter
“They die cruelly, painfully and needlessly in the greatest extermination of wild animals ever carried out on the planet.”
JULIET GELLATLEY BSc (Zoology), Director of Viva!
Under Fire
A Viva! Report on The Killing of Kangaroos for Meat and Skin

What an absolute load of bollocks that they die cruelly and painfully and for that matter needlessly. Most roo shooters that I knew used .308’s and .243’s. I have shot roo’s with both of these calibre’s and they don’t try and run away, because they’re dead. Shooting roo’s in the head with a .17 calibre rifle using a 10x scope with an adjustable parallax and the projectile travelling 3,000 fps over the first second, produces only one result, instant death. So I can’t see how the person above says they die cruelly and painfully.

Alice Walker, Peter Singer, Tony Wardle, etc, all similar to you: armchair experts.

Myopinion, you continue to let yourself down badly with poor evaluation methodology (you discredit anyone who disagrees with you without any explanation beyond that you like to exploit, kill and eat animals). You are not qualified to comment on the well-articulated views of established scientists and ethicists, regardless of their agendas, simply because they advocate vegetarianism/veganism just because of your own proclivity for violence.

The material posted by Dickie and me is from government codes of practice, so it can really hardly be described as "ranting". It can, however, be described as a series of cruel practices which have nothing to do with the welfare of the animals and everything to do with the productivity of the farmer. Do you think, for example, that the Animals Angels report on the transport from WA to SA was acceptable practice? And it was recorded as a "routine" journey, reported factually and without emotion.

Have you been to a battery egg production facility or an intensive pig farm? Until you have, you cannot discredit the material that has been filmed and documented in them. My hens from a battery farm were exactly as I described them - for months.

BTW, what do you do with the joeys of the kangaroos you have blown away? Beat them to death?

Nicky

Nicky – Once again you continue to jump to conclusions before asking. I didn’t do anything with the joeys because I didn’t shoot females, only males. Probably unlike you I could tell the difference between the two without standing only 20 foot away.
Again you use emotive exaggerated phrases; “the kangaroos you have blown away?”
No I didn’t blow them away, I didn’t use an RPG, air strike, 155mm howitzer or any other weapon that “could blow them away”. However do continue with your baseless accusations that I am cruel, morally challenged etc., as it doesn’t bother me.

You’re incorrect that I discredit anyone who disagrees with me. I discredit you and dickie because that’s exactly what you do to everyone else, so I give you a bit of your own medicine back…and you can’t handle it. But that’s typical of women like you two…once a bitch always a bitch!

“Do you think, for example, that the Animals Angels report on the transport from WA to SA was acceptable practice?”

Why would I read it when I know what happens with the transport of livestock. Unlike you and dickie I don’t have to read reports or watch videos in regard to this as I have seen it in real life.

Yes I have been to a battery egg production facility and intensive pig farms. Are these the most in depth questions you can ask. Feel free to ask relevant questions, you might learn something.

myopinion,

Hi thanks for that. I would like to ask pls. Why intensive has your support against free range? Also dont you worry about disease such as bird flue and others?
Or do you not support intensive against free range but came across that way being angry feeling your being attacked at times.

I honestly understand the frustration of people like Nicky and Dickie when it comes to the outragous lack of laws against animal cruelty in this country.
What upsets me most is this deep sense of outrage and justise hasnt been directed in twenty years to a better programe.

I can see these people given a good project towards improving animal welfare and the funds to do it would be dedicated and I think very successful.

I mean a approved programe' Something to make a REAL difference. For example- Re locating and transfering intensive poulty into free range farms.

Nicksaid
PALE, I remain mystified about AFIC. I have no idea what court you refer to, or even what congress, unless it is its own, or what its purpose in these discussions is any longer.

Palereplies
Ok Nicky, I will you tell you. I come in here to learn. No one person knows it all. I learn from you and Dickie and Yabbbs and other comments.

But your contiuned dismissal of anything and everything we try to put forth is a bit annoying TBO.

I was 'trying' to give yourself and everybody else a fair open report and share information. I just dont see how you can honestly think people can make informed judgments without knowing the all facts.
Or why you would put all yopur eggs into one basket.

The most vaulable thing we have in life Nicky is 'knowledge'

You shouldnt be so quick to dismiss somthing because you personally dont know. However consider the subject closed. That suites me fine TBO

*You wouldn’t know an elastrator from your jock strap. You prefer to maim and slash. *

Written by an old fanatic on a crusade! I teach you about what
farmers actually do, you are not interested. So ranting and raving,
as we see above, is what you are left with.

*All you can tell us is that you brutalized your own animals today.*

"Brutalised" in nothing but your imagination, Nicky. Tailing lambs
is a fairly standard procedure. They soon mother up and are back
grazing. But then you have clearly never been there at tailing to
observe it all, so all you have is flawed ideology and your
imagination mixed with the normal melodramatic language.

*Yabby, you have already said that you don't know what other farmers do.*

I know what huge numbers of farmers do, in my region of Australia.
Australia is a big place. I comment about the things that I understand, unlike you girls, who are on your little ideological
crusade about things which you don't understand.

*Describing Dickie and me as "old tarts" when you have no idea of how old we are *

But I do have an idea. Dickie made it rather clear in the past
and you have a bad memory about what you have posted on OLO so far.
Go and read what you posted about yourself on the feminist thread.
You are hardly a young tart :)

'"Brutalised" in nothing but your imagination, Nicky.'

Come now Yabby. You know very well that you prepared and exported your sheep in time for the "joyous" Haaj festivities in the ME last year.

The lovely footage below was released early last year so this is an indication of how they celebrated with your animals. I trust the pictures will be blood thirsty enough for the other bum buzzard on this thread.

Meanwhile, "your" WA is cooking. Thirty six percent of the South West's waterways are now saline; swans are dying by the hundreds on nutrient rich and polluted lakes; the Canning and Swan Rivers are on life support (oxygen depletion;) the Ord River is heavily impacted by sedimentation while you and the other trogs exploit our diminishing surface and groundwater and further trash other depleted resources to grow sheep, cattle and feral animals, not for domestic consumption but for export to your brothers-in-crime, the barbarians in the Middle East and Asia.

These exports have seen billions of tonnes of contaminated animal faeces and urine tipped into our fragile oceans and millions of diseased livestock dumped overboard, seriously impacting on marine life.

These pitiful animals and their waste contain hormone growth supplements, antibiotics, dioxins, vaccines and other pharmaceuticals. Mass mutated and diseased marine life are washing up on the shores around the world, resulting in the mass deaths of sea birds around the planet.

Shipping fuel is the filthiest available and already there is a record number of "dead" ocean zones which cannot sustain any life whatsoever. So what do you care dummy as long as you can get your filthy hands on the foul and lucrative spoils, whilst operating under third world standards.

"Tailing lambs is a fairly standard procedure." Yes indeed it is fairly standard procedure and rather mild for the Marquis De Sades of the twenty first century who suck up to ignorant and colluding governments.

Your pleasure in tailing lambs without pain relief is another indication of your cruel ignorance of nature. Nature provided the tail for good reason - as a fly swat, dummy.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Hi all

I don't think it's worth even answering myopinion any more, since he really has nothing of any substance to say. It should not be acceptable in any "civilized" country that animals can be deprived of water and feed for upwards of 70 hours for no better reason than a couple of bucks more at the slaughterhouse. Myopinion confirms that this is pretty common practice, along with an acceptance of the conditions under which intensively farmed pigs and hens are kept.

Dickie, Yabby sent his lambs to the slaughter on the "BECRUX" because he is such a warm, caring, compassionate person. No crappy "Al Kuwait" or "Al Messilah" for his lambs. Never mind what happened to them when they arrived, or, for that matter, those who did not get to arrive. Those would be the ones who got thrown into on-board macerators or simply over the side as you describe.

PALE, if you do not answer any questions you cannot expect anyone to understand. If there is no-one running AFIC then what negotiations can anyone be having with them?

Nicky

"I don't think it's worth even answering myopinion any more, since he really has nothing of any substance to say."

Indeed Nicky. How long must we endure the incoherent rantings of a dummkopf?:

"Yes I have been to a battery egg production facility and intensive pig farms. Are these the most in depth questions you can ask."

We've got a real sick one here, mate.

Off you go dummkopf. Psychiatric help is available for the deranged who think they're landed gentry.

Toodle pip and the best of rotten luck. Nah...cancel that. Karma will sort you out.

By the way Nicky, what do they do with the macerated animal remains? Do they also go overboard?

As a matter of fact Dickie, Hajj lambs bought by the Islamic bank, go to huge
meatworks on the outskirts of Mecca. Pilgrims pay a fee and the meat is given
to the poor. Kim Chance had a look at one Saudi meatworks recently. He says
that it is equal to or better, then anything he has seen in Australia.

WA is doing just fine. Salt that came from the ocean is going back to the
ocean, where it belongs. Drainage is how to solve the salt problem.

Without livestock to keep the grass down, huge yearly grassfires would
choke you girls to death, as they have learnt the hard way, in the ES.

Meantime you two moral pygmies seem to have no problem with doing your
best to wreck Australia’s reputation, despite the fact that you have ridden
on the sheep’s export back for most of your lives. Without past agricultural
exports, you two would have grown up in a banana republic.

No “dead ocean” zones on the sheep trade Dickie, stop lying. You know full
well that any waste becomes fish food. Fish do not drink water for nutrition, organic
matter is part of their diet.

Nicky, the Becrux is a far kinder solution their your vegan one, ie letting animals
starve to death from hunger. You need to think your philosophies through, beyond
your feelgood limits.

Meantime, other Australians, unlike you two, who are trying to destroy Australia,
are making a valid contribution to finding solutions to problems.

http://www.animalethics.net.au/

They are working with farmers to achieve results, not attempting to bankrupt the
country. You should both be ashamed of yourselves.

Hi all

Yabby, I have copied this from the other thread in case you miss it (and because neither Dickie nor I should feel in the slightest embarassed discussing Australia's 'World's Best Practice' on international websites):-

"Kim (Fat) Chance visited one meatworks in Saudi Arabia and said it was as good or better than what he has seen in Australia. One? ONE? In ONE country? What a dropkick. Of course he is going to say that, he is a sheep farmer (or if he isn't, he is in the pocket of sheep farmers).
The RSPCA in WA has two live export farmers on the State Council, Des Gooding and Neville Marsh. Gooding has an old conviction for cruelty to animals too. Looks pretty corrupt to me.

"Yabby, if your lambs go to the tender mercies of an Islamic bank for the meat to be "given to the poor" why not give meat processed in Australia "to the poor"? And is this ALL of the Hajj lambs we're talking about? No, I thought not.

"Nor is the "Becrux" kinder than any vegan alternative. No animal should be born for no better purpose than to spend its short life being brutalized by you (remember, we are talking about practices you would not attempt on your dogs), then put on a tramp ship (let's not forget that the "Becrux" is the only ship that anyone ever gets to see because the rest are simply disgusting. let's not forget the similar fairytales from Cameron Morse - they only get to see the sanitized stuff) and butchered halfway across the world. (Dickie, yes, the contents of the macerators are sprayed out over the side of the ships (those equipped with macerators. The animals put into them may or may not be dead, likewise those put over the side).

Don't breed 'em if you can't feed 'em, for God's sake. It's not rocket science.

And don't forget to answer the question about Tri-solfen - according to the link you provided, it is readily available from a veterinarian.

Nicky

*No animal should be born for no better
purpose than to spend its short life being brutalized by you,*

Animals are born Nicky, because their parents have sex, the most natural thing
in the world. Your very own charter states that they should live naturally.
Leave animals to their own devices, as you vegans claim should happen, they will
do exactly that. Then, when there are too many, they will die miserable deaths from
starvation, due to overpopulation. That is the reality of nature for you, which you
are trying to deny. The vegan solution means huge suffering, starvation and misery
in the animal world, something which you cannot deny, even as you wear your
feelgood blinkers.

*One? ONE? In ONE country?* I never claimed the he only visited a single one,
but stated what he found in one of the new plants just built. Kim has less of a vested
interest then you have, for its you who seek the power to close down farming as we
know it. He can at least be somewhat objective. Not so with you fanatics.

*why not give meat processed in Australia "to the poor*

Because it is part of the Hajj ritual for pilgrims going to Mecca. This year, Australia
missed out on the order, the Saudis have found cheaper supplies from Africa, China and South America. If Australian lambs go to the ME, they won’t be going as part
of the Islamic Bank order, where they all go to the same place.

*Don't breed more than you can feed,*

Sheesh, you are thick as a brick Nicky. Animals left to their own devices, act
naturally and breed by themselves. Leaving them to their own devices, is exactly
what you vegans are suggesting, to replace farming, which you detest.

As to the work that Meredith Shiel is doing, its a lot more then Trisolfen, but that
seems to have gone over your head too. Fact is that Trisolfen is still not good enough
for you vegans, banning farming altogether is your agenda

Hi again all

Yabby, for God's sake, do the maths. If you don't put too many animals together, they don't breed too many animals. Is that simple enough for you? The fact is that you are actively breeding these animals in far greater numbers than you claim you can feed for commercial gain. Be honest.

Kim Chance and Cameron Morse obviously were never going to get to see the street bloodbaths and backroom slaughter operations either, all they got to see was what the industry wanted them to see. You know it and we know it. If packaged meat is good enough for the poor it's good enough for all of them. It's the only way they will be stopped, ultimately, from brutalizing animals. Australia can make a start on that by not sending them. Is that simple enough for you?

I met Meredith Sheil (any relation to the charming Kevin, or is the spelling different?) at a conference. We regard Tri-Solfen as an interim (and barely acceptable) measure until you people can manage to breed out the excessive and unnatural wrinkles you bred into these animals for commercial gain. Don't blame us because you're paying the price for that, and the fact that what you do has been exposed to the world. It seems that there are plenty of farmers out there who manage without mulesing and/or have managed to breed bare-breech sheep. Don't blame us because you are backward. If we have to drag you kicking and screaming to civilization, we will, and if we have to do it with international pressure we will. If you and others like you go broke in the process, too bad.

It may take us years, but we will win in the end. Luckily, fuel prices are going to help us out with the live export issue as well. You can't run these old tramp ships forever, they cost too much, and there's only one new one.

Nicky

*Yabby, for God's sake, do the maths*

You do the maths Nicky, but first learn something about livestock. A flock of sheep,
left to their own devices, can double in 12 months. By 13 months of age, those
hoggets are already dropping their own lambs. You live in fantasy land and don’t
understand the animals you are dealing with, nor how nature works.

*Australia can
make a start on that by not sending them. Is that simple enough for you?*

It is simplistic garbage. As the Saudis showed this year, they will source sheep,
with or without Australia. Sudan and Ethiopia have just offered them millions
of hectares to invest petrodollars into livestock farming. AA showed that if
you try just a teeny bit, you can bring about change in the ME. Sticking your
head in the sand like an ostrich Nicky, is about as smart as the ostrich.

*We regard Tri-Solfen as an interim*

You don’t accept Tri-Solfen at all, certainly not your fanatic buddies. You
completely overlook the fact that there are around 80 million merinos in Australia.
Those sheep are going to pay a huge price, but then your agenda dominates, not
your care or understanding of animals. Its not going to affect me by 1 single cent,
as I don’t mules a single sheep here, but those 80 million sheep will suffer,
because of
you lot. All very sad, what ignorance can do. Shame on you for your stupidity
and ignorance.

*Don't blame us because you're paying the price for that*

Sadly the sheep will pay the price for that, but you are too thick to understand it.

*but we will win in the end.*

Exactly, fanatics who have lost the ability to reason or even think about the effects on livestock,
as they focus on their agenda.

Well, the two sexually frustrated old hags are rambling incoherently again, what a surprise!

Nicky & dickie - "I don't think it's worth even answering myopinion any more, since he really has nothing of any substance to say."

I have plenty of things to say that contain substance but it’s not worth posting here anymore because you two twits don’t understand it. Yabby has also posted some good points but all you two bitter old hags do is criticize them.

Dickie – “How long must we endure the incoherent rantings of a dummkopf?:”

in•co•her•ent – adjective
1. without logical or meaningful connection; disjointed; rambling: an incoherent sentence.

Read the above definition of incoherent. You and nicky should know this word perfectly as it describes the vast majority of your posts on this thread. The words “logical” or “meaningful” are the ones you should take the most notice of. My advice to you two is also look up the word “truth” because you obviously don’t know what it means.

Dickie - “This is the least desirable method of castration. It is bloodless, but calves castrated in this manner are subject to tetanus (lockjaw) infection. Sometimes the rubber ring fails and voids the operation. The post-operative appearance produced by complete removal of the scrotum is objectionable to some producers.”

I agree with the above statements. In all my experience (some 15 years) of seeing male calves castrated and castrating them myself, both here and in the U.S. I have never seen elastrator rings used. It was standard practice to take the testicles out with a drop point blade. As for the complete removal of the scrotum, I have never seen this. The top of the scrotum was cut allowing the testicles to protrude through the cut skin and then the cord attached to the testicles to be cut. I don’t know the number of calves that I have seen castrated or castrated, but it would be into the many thousands. Whether some producers use the above method, I can’t comment as I haven’t been on every cattle producing property in the world

Shockadelic, rocks.

Then I noticed he has had similar experiences to mine regarding the poster specific sensibilities of the OLO moderate-ate-or

now I think Shockadelic is a rock-a-billy.

I scanned the postings hoping for some new opinions but could only recognise two new names. Disappointing.

Isn't there any bench warmers for Dick-n-Nick? This fundamentalist, bigoted, Animal Taliban and speciesist tag team is becoming incredibly tedious. Hang on, it just occurred to me that Nick is probably pretending to be Dick or vice versa. Two people could not possibly be so exceedingly obtuse.

I still remember one of them coming up sputtering for air after being asked to define cruelty. In their juvenile universe everyone is just supposed to intuitively 'know'. Sure saves a lot of time writing unnecessary legislation, or does it?

Imagine the queue at district court -- charged with cruelty -- all those devolved hamburger eating Neanderthals.

Really tangential BUT why is it necessary for the RSPCA officers to be uniformed like storm troopers? Does it increase donations? Their dress promotes violence and I thought they were anti violence. I was actually traumatised the time I encountered a stern faced RSPCA bull dike officer eating lunch at McDonald's. Unfortunately, there is no law protecting me from being inflicted with discomfort by such an insensitive individual.

Do McDonald's serve lentil burgers? Not germane to the topic but never-the-less good to know these things.

Thank you very much myopinion. At last you've given us a coherent response to an issue, despite my vociferous objections to surgical procedures on defenceless animals which are denied the benefit of pain relief.

Now I draw Nicky's attention to the Yabby's declaration where he assured her:

"Its not going to affect me by 1 single cent,
as I don’t mules a single sheep here,"

Then on 29/03/08 on another thread he declared:

"PF, I did a trial this year with a few merino lambs, leaving long
tails, unmulesed etc. The results were frankly a disaster with
lambs struck on their butts, that had been shorn a couple of months
earlier."

Tut tut what a deceitful grub you are Yabby and you audaciously denounce our intentions to let the world know the type of slippery and sadistic characters they trade with in Australia's livestock industry. So what's the next lie?

'No “dead ocean” zones on the sheep trade Dickie, stop lying. You know full well that any waste becomes fish food. Fish do not drink water for nutrition, organic matter is part of their diet.'

More ignorant swill Yabby? The Indian ocean is the most polluted of all oceans and while dead zones shrink or grow depending on nutrient input and at times, climatic conditions, the resulting fish die-offs are not so easily reversed. Most of the surviving fish are now so heavily contaminated with agricultural pollutants, they are not fit for human consumption.

Shortly scientists will wake up to Australia's live exports and its impact on marine life. In the meantime, I intend writing to several scientific bodies around the world to express my concerns. Four million animals exported last year probably equates to at least some 200 sea journeys each year, each spanning some three weeks. The load of chemically contaminated animal faeces, urine and livestock dumped overboard is unimaginable.

And I see the turd burglar's back so playing drop the hanky didn't work for him either but then new age enlightened males don't like intellectually impaired, flesh eating mammals!

Yeehaaa....ride 'em cowboy!

"Tailing lambs is a fairly standard procedure."

Dickie - "Yes indeed it is fairly standard procedure and rather mild for the Marquis De Sades of the twenty first century who suck up to ignorant and colluding governments.”

Does this disjointed sentence have any meaning? I’m sure I don’t understand it and I don’t think anyone else would either.

dickie – “Your pleasure in tailing lambs without pain relief is another indication of your cruel ignorance of nature. Nature provided the tail for good reason - as a fly swat, dummy.”

HAHAHA. ARE YOU SERIOUS? Are you on some sort of medication or should you be on some? Like, are you bi-polar or schizophrenic or something? Nature did not provide sheep with a tail to be used as a fly swat. LOL. I’m almost lost for words at this statement, it’s that absurd. While cattle and horses can use their tails as a type of fly swat, sheep cannot. Kangaroos have tails but can’t use them the same as cattle and horses. These animals, unlike sheep are short haired and don’t get fly strike. For God’s sake, know your subject before making outlandish, stupid statements!

Nicky - None of these ‘procedures’ is performed using anaesthetic or analgesic follow-up. Rarely are they carried out by veterinary surgeons; most being undertaken by unqualified untrained workers.

You’re right, anaesthetic or analgesics is not used and never will be, but keep dreaming. You’re right again, vets are not used for tailing and there are many reasons for this. The claim that most tailing is carried out by unqualified untrained workers is wrong. I have never seen a vet that could castrate lambs or calves better than I could and definitely not at the speed that I could do it. I have seen many farmers tailing lambs and I can assure you they were very qualified for the task. Farmers are trained in whatever they do in farming. Just because they don’t have a university degree in everything they do, doesn’t mean that they aren’t highly qualified and experienced.

Dickie – “More ignorant swill Yabby? The Indian ocean is the most polluted of all oceans and while dead zones shrink or grow depending on nutrient input and at times, climatic conditions, the resulting fish die-offs are not so easily reversed.”

Really and where do you get your so-called facts from?

Grinningplanet.com shows that the world's seas are beset by a variety of water pollution problems. The 10 of the worst areas in 2005 are:

Gulf of Mexico
Caribbean Sea
Baltic Sea
Aral Sea
Yellow Sea
Bohol Sea
Congo Basin
Benguela Current
Lake Victoria
Pacific Islands

The Pacific Islands are in the Pacific Ocean and the Coral Sea, on the opposite side of the country. All the rest of the listed worst polluted areas have nothing to do with us on the west coast.

As for coastal dead zones, the only two that effect Australia at the moment are on the east coast. This is 2005 information and I haven’t seen anything more current.

The Spanish newspaper “El Pais” wrote in September last year that referring to the leading scientists and nature defending organizations that the Mediterranean sea is the most polluted sea in the world.
According to the international organization Greenpeace and Spanish World Ocean Research Institute, every cubic metre of Mediterranean water contains 33 various waste kinds. But every litre contains 10 grams of petrochemicals.
Every year more than 400 tonnes petrochemicals intentionally or accidentally are blown into the waters of Mediterranean Sea; every kilometer of the ocean bed is covered with 1900 objects being waste of human activity, - is noted in the article.

There is no evidence that I have seen that shows that the Indian Ocean is the most polluted in the world, but then I don’t have an agenda like you two clowns.

Nicky – “If we have to drag you kicking and screaming to civilization, we will, and if we have to do it with international pressure we will. It may take us years, but we will win in the end.”

Don't you two feel stupid because you should.

Dickie, what a Dummkopf you are! Rushing off to jump to conclusions,
without even checking your facts.

If the truth be known, I will be actually making money out of all
the drama over mulesing and merinos. In the late 90s I predicted
the downturn in the woolindustry, due to the Chinese buying up all
the processing machinery. The Chinese know how to rig markets, they
don't pay more then they have to, for raw materials.

I started breeding shearing free meat lambs, which shed any
bit of wool grown. Demand for these, which make up 95% of my
animals, has gone through the roof now. Any females that I can
produce, are already pre sold for the next 18 months, at ever
increasing prices! The more drama that you create over mulesing, the more I
benefit, you dummkopf.

The tiny flock of merinos left here, are here for one reason only,
ie to measure economic differences between the two systems.

What the long tailed experiment with merinos showed, was exactly
how easily merinos still get struck, even if recently shorn.
No, their tails were not used as flyswats, or they would not
be flyblown, you ignoramous. All that Peta are doing, is making
sure that the 80 million merinos in Australia are going to
suffer, due to Peta's ignorance.

No dead zones in the Indian Ocean Dickie, but the fish are short
of food. Stop lying.

Dickie posted this link:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

What has this to do with Australia or Aussie farmers? I could guarantee that the animals being butchered (as in killed for consumption) aren't from Australia but are LOCAL STOCK! They've been butchering animals like that for thousands of years, why don't you do something about that if it bothers you. You complain about us but you don't see us dragging stock into the street and killing them, so where is the comparison. Has Peta made a campaign against this and publicly condemned the practice or have they been silent as one poster stated on the page; “Oh well, I know fully that Peta dare not say a word from fear of a jihad.”

I don’t understand the logic of this link being posted. Oh but wait a minute, I forgot you two don’t understand logic, you just have preconceived ideas and motives.

I see that you and nicky haven’t yet replied to my previous two posts, so you’re either madly googling away to try and prove me wrong or out and about saving the world from us normal meat eaters. Good luck on both counts.

Cowboy Joe might have a valid point, maybe you two posters are the same person. Maybe one person (being kind here calling you a person) with a split personality or even several personalities. I will now sit back and wait for the usual venomous uncontrolled comments from both of you. Do try and post some facts about what you talk about even if you have to ask someone who knows more than you, which wouldn’t be very hard.

Before I go I notice that you and nicky are always whingeing about Australia and the way things are here. You openly admit to denigrating Australia and Aussies on web sites and to various organizations. Let me give you a bit of free advice: If you don’t like it here, piss off and live somewhere else, both of you certainly won’t be missed.

The caring, sharing nature of Yabby and Myopinion is very touching. For these two intelligent, creative, sophisticated and financially successful individuals to donate time out of their busy day to educate the wayward Nick-n-Dick on a myriad of life's realities is the mark of a true elder.

Their patience (or is it patients Nick-n-Dick?)deserves acknowledgement.

Now for the latest lesson.

Training usually relates to a skill i.e. a process that could require hand and eye co-ordination, but not always. The way one becomes highly skilled is to repeat the process over and over again until the person becomes so good at it, the process can be done subconsciously. TAFE generally tends to be involved with training.

Universities on the other hand generally deal in education i.e. the theoretical aspects of various social & political disciplines. One being education. Degree holders are then expected to go into the world and experience life thereby making adjustments to the theories they have been exposed to. Unfortunately, the modern version of a degree holder is to go out into the world and steadfastly hang onto theoretical notions that are not verifiable. This probably happens for a number of reasons, but it seems clear that a lack of genuine or crystalline intelligence and an air of entitlement significantly contribute to this increasing phenomenon.

So Nick-n-Dick, a vet can quite easily be much less skilled at castration compared to a non-degree holding farmer. If the layman can perform a technical task quickly and effectively they are deemed competent in the real world of work. The level of hubris that the elitist Nick-n-Dick consistently demonstrate is absolutely extraordinary.

The usage of the word skill has been bastardised / misused as of late due to the so called skill shortage.

Nick-n-Dick are you descended from British Aristocracy? Sorry, I am just mulling over the ramifications of genetic memory.

Hi all

I have been a bit remiss on the last couple of evenings; had a major report to do, and I have also been concentrating on a major report to the OIE, copying the film material on to DVDs and all that. As well, I have been reading the PROTECTION OF THE SEA (PREVENTION OF POLLUTION FROM SHIPS) ACT 1983.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/potsopfsa1983603/

which strongly suggests that these livestock carriers are breaching this legislation every day, as well as international covenants protecting t5he "high seas", as they are referred to in international law.

I also made a conscious decision to ignore any further claptrap from myopinion, since there has been nothing of any substantive value from him to which to respond. I made another conscious decision not to keep going over the same ground with Yabby, and Cowboy Joe (although he seems slightly more articulate) doesn't seem to be able to come up with anything worth responding to either, so unless you guys can come up with something different, I'm off to threads that can. I can do without you bragging between yourselves about how many animals you have managed to brutalize, and who can come up with the best allowable degree of abuse - got better stuff to do than that, like telling the international community all about it.

Nicky

"Its not going to affect me by 1 single cent,
as I don’t mules a single sheep here,

Yabby, you're clearly a liar. Always have been?

I acknowledge my error on the sheep's tail and apologise. However, I have far fewer concerns with an animal's anatomy than the savage slashing and maiming perpetrated by the sadists here. It appears that the sheep's tail is to protect the anus, vulva, and udder from weather extremes. This of course is of no concern to halfwits.

"No dead zones in the Indian Ocean Dickie, but the fish are short
of food. Stop lying."

Hey stoopid, I didn't say there were - but there are anyway so could YOU please stop lying?

"Really and where do you get your so-called facts from?"

Years of research dummy, relevant to my career and an archive filled to capacity with scientific literature.

1. 2005: "A "dead zone" devoid of life has been discovered at the epicentre of last year's tsunami four kilometres beneath the surface of the Indian Ocean. Scientists taking part in a worldwide marine survey made an 11-hour dive at the site five months after the disaster.

"They were shocked to find no sign of life around the epicentre, which opened up a 1000-metre chasm on the ocean floor. Instead, there was nothing but eerie emptiness."

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h73h215151h40521/

WASHINGTON (AP) 2006: The number of oxygen-starved "dead zones'' in the world's seas and oceans has risen more than a third in the past two years because of fertilizer, sewage, animal waste and fossil-fuel burning, United Nations experts said Thursday.

2. Most polluted: The 2004 Tsunami devastated 12 countries, impacting on marine life and breaking up coral reefs. Cars to concrete, sewage waste, hazardous agricultural chemicals and livestock, debris, mud and dead bodies were washed out to sea. Researchers have deep concerns over the fishing gear which was also swept into the oceans, harming coral reefs, trapping and killing marine life. Long term effects are unknown.

Is this all too complex for the retards?

contd....

An international group of scientists participating in an Indian Ocean Experiment has documented extensive air pollution covering the Indian Ocean. The findings raise serious questions about the impact that widespread pollution is having on climate processes and on marine life.

Director of C4 at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, Dr. V.
Ramanathan said the team of scientists was shocked by the extent of the pollution they encountered during the six-week field experiment that began.

PCDDs, PCDFs and coplanar PCBs, levels of these compounds were determined in the muscle of skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis) collected from the offshore waters and open seas of the Indian Ocean, the East China Sea, the South China Sea and the North Pacific Ocean.

PCDDs, PCDFs and coplanar PCBs were detected in almost all the specimens collected from all the locations surveyed, indicating widespread contamination by these compounds in the marine environment. Higher concentrations of dioxins and coplanar PCBs were detected in the samples from temperate Asian regions.

Myopinion. This I believe is beyond the comprehension of buffons, particularly when they're off their medication, however, learn one thing, ocean currents connect. Some areas of the Benguela Current receive some 25% of water from the Indian Ocean and so on. What you do to one, you do to others - get it?

Next stop: International investigations into the trashing of oceans from transporting millions of Australian animals by ship - animals contaminated from PCDD/Fs, pharmaceuticals and other chemicals which are entering the marine life food chain.

Nicky

The PM of Malaysia trucked in 6 cattle and 10 goats and had them slaughtered at Parliament House for his wedding last year so what can one expect from those "refined" people in the Middle East?

http://www.jeffooi.com/2007/07/omen.ph

*Yabby, you're clearly a liar. Always have been?*

Where did I lie Dickie? As it turns out, no I don't
mules sheep on this farm, as I have bugger all merinos
left, just a few for various trials. Amongst them
trials to answer questions, when people like you make
your usual irrational claims.

You thought I had money to lose over the mulesing debate
and you still don’t get it. It is against my self interest
to argue for the benefits of mulesing. But the welfare
of 80 million sheep matters, besides, I don’t need the
money.

The sad story about the whole mulesing saga, which you
girls in your fanatical states completely forget, is
that farmers don't feel a thing when sheep get flyblown,
it is animals which suffer en masse. The fact that
various animal welfare groups are going to be responsible
for causing huge amounts of suffering to millions of animals,
because they just don't understand enough about an industry,
I find terribly sad, certainly for the animals. As I said
before, farmers won't feel a thing, but all that is clearly
beyond you.

Nicky, I am sure that you don’t want to go over old ground,
as you could not answer so many questions the first time

Fact is that veganism is a feelgood philosophy which tries
to ignore the realities of nature. Ignore those realities
at your peril, just like the Catholic Church does.
All the philosophy in the world, won’t change them.
So best you just avoid dealing with the answers
huh, it feels better that way.

Dickie does the same. Just switch off David Attenborough,
so we don’t have to deal with what is really going on out
there. Out of sight is out of mind and we all feel better,
as we comfort ourselves with believing that karma will
fix it all one day. I have news for her lol.

"No dead zones in the Indian Ocean Dickie, but the fish are short
of food. Stop lying."

Not man enough to apologise, Yabby? I thought not.

And you continue to manipulate the facts. We are not opposed to mulesing. We are opposed to the cruelty which accompanies this procedure because you refuse to use anaesthesia. Please for the first time in your life, separate the two.

That also applies to all the other medieval surgical procedures you perform on incarcerated beasts, bellowing and crying in agony.

David Attenborough is as clinical and frigid as you. Only last night, he was salivating over and portraying the predatory skills of lions. My young family members are well aware of the laws of nature but are mature enough to realise that Attenborough relishes showing an animal being brought down, which certainly would get your juices flowing, however, we simply switch off.

God only knows what Attenborough's footage does to the cockroach and the opinionated one. Some orgy that would be eh, shooting up and bashing their prey to death.

Incidentally, mulesed sheep also get fly blown but that's not for public knowledge, is it?

Have you had a vasectomy Yabby? Did you have anaesthesia? Come come now. You didn't did you? Of course you did or would. I knew you were a wimp and a coward. It's well documented that those who torture animals are.

Whether we eat meat or not is none of your business and not relevant to good versus evil. You are so out of touch and have no idea how many knowledgeable people have become vegetarian because of your heinous actions.

Nicky do you know how many animals are crammed in on ships to the Middle East? I need to include that in my statistics, thanks.

Now that Nick-n-Dick are in a more rational mood, I would greatly appreciated some explanation and elaboration about the the cruelty aspects of the annual seal hunt in North West Canada. It would be of value to many readers if you were to provide a factual analysis of the sealing operation from the anti sealing view point. I am sorry but I do not cope well with emotional arguments like many other people.

It would be helpful if you were to also compare and contrast the various animal liberation groups with the traditional organisations such as RSPCA. I am thinking of Voiceless, PETA, Animals Australia and other groups that you are familiar with.

I submit this on behalf of a mate of mine who has wondered:

"If PETA is concerned only with the "ethical treatment" of animals, which is a laudable purpose :
(a) Why is their ultimate aim to see an end to all human exploitation of all animals, including animals as companions to humans? Surely most if not all modern human communities are all the richer (in terms of ethics & aesthetics) for having companion animals as part of those communities. Conversely, dogs for example, clearly crave human affection - they choose to be with humans.
(b) Why is it necessary for PETA to support (covertly - there is documented evidence for this claim) violent activities which harm humans?"

Hi all

Dickie, regarding the number of animals on the ships - that depends on which ship and what type of ship, some, for example may carry 60,000 sheep and 20,000 cattle, some may only carry sheep. If you have a look at www.liveexportshame.com there is a document there called "A Disaster by any other name" - it details all the ships used from Australia, there histories, their re-births under other names (usually following a major incident, for example the Cormo Express, an old car transporter, became the Merino Express). The document was written by Suzanne Cass, a Tasmanian animal advocate, is referenced against the Fairplay International Register of Shipping, and also lists the numbers of times each of them has been detained in Australian ports for major defects.

A ship like the "Al Kuwait" can carry something like 120,000 sheep, and is over 40 years old, the "Al Shuwaikh is a bit smaller, and these are converted oil tankers. The "Becrux" is a similar capacity. The latter two carry sheep and cattle, but you are certainly talking around 100,000 animals per shipment on these larger ones. Another is the ill-fated "Maysora", an old container ship. Have a look also at the following link:

http://www.liveexportshame.com/bader_report.htm

Cowboy Joe, I'll respond to your questions in a separate post.

Cheers
Nicky

Hi again all

Cowboy Joe, you asked about the Canadian seal hunt. I'm sure it's a loaded question, but I'll answer it anyway. I cannot see any possible justification for clubbing to death baby animals for their fur. I cannot see any justification for the use of fur at all, since there are synthetics which serve as good or better a purpose. There is the argument of the Inuit people that it is a cultural pursuit, but that is similar to the argument used to justify the Tasmanian short-tailed shearwater (commercial) hunt. There is also a "recreational" shearwater (otherwise known as muttonbirds) "season". So that turns it into a political argument.

Other arguments advanced for the Canadian seal hunt is that the seals deplete the fish population, but there appears to be no real scientific evidence to support that, nor is it mostly the Inuit people who do the butchering. The major arguments we have against it though is the cruelty: a) it is well documented that a large number of the pups are skinned while alive and conscious and b) while their mothers flounder on the ice trying to protect them.

You asked about the various animal welfare/advocacy organizations. The most conservative is the RSPCA, which does not oppose the use of animals for anything much provided it is done "humanely". It has regulatory powers under most POCTAA state legislatures, and that is the only legislation in the country left to enforcement by a charity. Animals Australia and Voiceless would be, in my view, the most authoritative of the more mainstream groups; they are staffed by highly qualified people who back their material with considerable research and investigation. Animal Liberation, in the States where it is active (mainly NSW, Victoria and SA) are more activist/protest oriented. As for PETA, it is an international organization, both authoritative and activist, and very savvy. I don't know any animal advocate who would be involved in form of violence against other living creatures, humans included. For the record, I do not belong to any.

Cheers
Nicky

The truth has prevailed and nicky has beat a hasty retreat to other threads to baffle and confuse people with her irrational ramblings. I spoke too soon, she has returned. Won’t this be riveting.

Now let’s look at dickies unintelligible slogans. I won’t be correcting her spelling mistakes as I usually do. She’ll have to learn to spell correctly herself. It must be all that university education.

Dickie – “I acknowledge my error on the sheep's tail and apologise.”

Well finally you have admitted you were wrong. Mind you, you are wrong about a lot of things on this thread but I suppose one admission is a start.

1. 2005: "A "dead zone" devoid of life has been discovered at the epicentre of last year's tsunami four kilometres beneath the surface of the Indian Ocean. Scientists taking part in a worldwide marine survey made an 11-hour dive at the site five months after the disaster.

"They were shocked to find no sign of life around the epicentre, which opened up a 1000-metre chasm on the ocean floor. Instead, there was nothing but eerie emptiness."

How fascinating. Do you think (there’s a foreign word for you dickie), that the occurrence of the tsunami might have something to do with the dead zone? I certainly would. And please tell how many live sheep or cattle are shipped from Australia through the area where the dead zone is located?

The PM of Malaysia trucked in 6 cattle and 10 goats and had them slaughtered at Parliament House for his wedding last year so what can one expect from those "refined" people in the Middle East?

http://www.jeffooi.com/2007/07/omen.ph

Number one: who cares? I certainly don’t. I am quite sure there are more important things to be concerned about than how the PM of Malaysia butchers his tucker.
Number two: Malaysia is in Asia and not the Middle East, so I fail to see the comparison.
Number three: the link above does not work, but I suppose that happens when you pinch someone else’s work and post it as yours.

Nicky said

I don't know any animal advocate who would be involved in form of violence against other living creatures, humans included.
pale comments
Nicky there is a difference between violence and common sense.
Strange the Maylasian PM is mentioned now.
The sad fact is had some of these organisations accepted invatations they would have been a big help to animals TBO.

To sit and talk with Maylasians who have the power to make changes was offered again and again . Because actually it very important considering they are the future hub of halal to distribute to ME and world wide.

I have told you a million times they ONLY way to improve condtions is to make changes within the industry.

Insulting farmers and muslims post after post has the opposite effect.
This is why live exports has grown over the years because nobody wants to help make sensible changes.

Put in its most simply form nobody is going to listen to sensible changes and a fair go for farm animals when its presented by veggies.

After all this is a meat eating country and if you cant see the politics and fund raisers then I cant help you.
You need people with knowledge of the meat industry. You need farmers and muslims working with you to make changes if you serious- and that is the real problem.

You people dont do anything other than highlight the cruelty but nobody is listening.
You need to get off your bums and be serious about making real changes.
God knows we offered enough times.
How sad for the animals

*Not man enough to apologise, Yabby? I thought not.*

So Dickie, you think that I should apologise, because you are
trying to sneak in what is essentially a geological answer, into
what was a biological question? Next you will be blaming
exploding volcanoes on the live trade!

*We are not opposed to mulesing.*

Who is we? Dickie and Nicky essentially don’t matter. Your
Peta buddies, who have threatened companies with brand damage,
if they don’t comply, don’t agree with you. The debate is not about
Trisolfen or no Trisolfen, it is about mulesing or no mulesing. That
is the critical point.

*incarcerated beasts,
bellowing and crying in agony.*

When I zapped off the tail of my pet lamb, she hardly blinked. Dropped
to the ground and went back to chewing the nearest bit of clover, as
if nothing had ever happened.

*David Attenborough is as clinical and frigid as you.* David Attenborough
can separate emotion from reason as I can. He respects and is in awe of nature,
that is not salivating. The world over he is respected for that, but you just
don’t get it.

You think that people salivate over this. That is where you are so mistaken.
I usually hope that the prey escapes, but am also realist enough to realise that
if it does, the lion will starve. That is the reality of nature for you, that will
not go away. If you don’t accept it, you are kidding yourself about the world.

*but that's not for public knowledge, is it?*

Of course it is for public knowledge. You keep inventing these little strawman
arguments, mainly in your own mind. Then you argue against the crap that
you have dreamed up, in your own imagination.

*Whether we eat meat or not is none of your business and not relevant to good versus evil.*

Of course it is relevant. Vested interest is not just about money, it can be ideology,
as is the case with you and Nicky.

Dickie – “We are not opposed to mulesing. We are opposed to the cruelty which accompanies this procedure because you refuse to use anaesthesia.”

In all your posts on this thread you have not once stated this or insinuated that you were not opposed to mulesing. This is what happens when in your fragile mind you flap your jaw before engaging your brain. If you said that you were against the pain which accompanies this procedure, you might get more people to listen to you, but no you have to dress it up with your ‘over the top’ use of emotive words.

Dickie – “David Attenborough is as clinical and frigid as you. Only last night, he was salivating over and portraying the predatory skills of lions. My young family members are well aware of the laws of nature but are mature enough to realise that Attenborough relishes showing an animal being brought down, which certainly would get your juices flowing, however, we simply switch off.”

Your family sounds as immature as you are. Once again you make outlandish statements about someone who has without question done more to raise people’s awareness of wildlife than you or your family will ever do. Pathetic!

Dickie – “Incidentally, mulesed sheep also get fly blown but that's not for public knowledge, is it?”

Why isn’t it for public knowledge? Who said it wasn’t apart from you? Of course mulesed sheep can get flyblown, but it’s very uncommon. It is also relevant to what type of pasture you’re running the sheep on. For example if the sheep have a reasonable amount of fleece and you run them in lush pastures where the feed is a couple of feet high or in blue lupins which can reach a height of four foot or more, then the stock will be more susceptible to fly strike. But this is down to farm management practice of the individual farmer and they must be doing it fairly right as I have seen only a very small number of mulesed sheep blown.

"In all your posts on this thread you have not once stated this or insinuated that you were not opposed to mulesing."

Why not get a life tosser? You've only been on OLO since 25/05/08. Your declaration tells me that you have so much time on your hands that you've resorted to filtering through all my posts (total 1042), to spew such a "resounding" piece of crap and then blundered!

Why don't you go and do a good days work tosser? Perhaps tend to your flock for a change or you could form an association with the other farmers here who don't know what to do with themselves (except the very obvious of course - he hem!)

There you go tosser: "Bludgers, Buffoons and Biophobes Inc."

Dickie – “Why not get a life tosser? You've only been on OLO since 25/05/08. Your declaration tells me that you have so much time on your hands that you've resorted to filtering through all my posts (total 1042), to spew such a "resounding" piece of crap and then blundered!”

Tosser now! Haha, are you cracking under the pressure of being exposed to too much truth, or is it because of the exposure of your constant propaganda and lies that is getting to you. One doesn’t have to be on OLO for very long to realise what sort of fake and deceitful people you and nicky are, about five minutes actually.
Once again you have made an assumption that I have been through all of your posts, which is incorrect, AGAIN! If I read through all of your posts I think I would end up as mentally fragile as you. In regard to mulesing, if I am wrong when I said that in all your posts on this thread you have not once stated or insinuated that you were not opposed to mulesing, then PROVE IT! You with the big mouth and the small brain, PROVE I’M WRONG!

Dickie – “Why don't you go and do a good days work tosser? Perhaps tend to your flock for a change…..”

If you had taken any notice of anyone’s posts other than yours and nicky’s, you would have notice that I stated I was a former farmer; therefore I don’t have a flock to take care of. DUH! $200k p.a. I don’t think I’m worried…lol.

Dickie – “There you go tosser: "Bludgers, Buffoons and Biophobes Inc."

Biophobe. So once again YOU ASSUME that I am fearful of or discriminate against homosexuals, lesbians, etc. Unlike you dickie, I’m honest, so this is my outlook on your assumption. I couldn’t care if people are gay, bisexual, etc., as long as they’re not around me. I don’t fear ANYONE and what other people’s sexual preferences are, I couldn’t care less. By putting this word in are you latently suggesting that you are gay, bisexual etc.

I think that the topic of this thread is wandering a bit. But I can't help noticing that the two (apparently male) farming identities seem to be relying largely on insults and sexist remarks because they are being argued with. And Pale tends to be repeating everything it has said on all the other threads that I have looked at. Pale, how long have you been in operation? What progress has been made with your proposed solution? It seems to me that every group involved in animal concerns has different ways of working and different ideas and I think that's a good thing. Nicky seems to be fairly well in control of the informstion she needs in this debate, and hsving seen some of Attenborough's docos (they aren't really) you have to ask how many times does he really need to film animals being ripped to bits. We all know that that is nature, that there are predators and prey animals, but how often do we need to see it? Dickie also hasn't said she (?) cateorically opposes mulesing as far as I can see and neither has Nicky. Both of them are saying that they object to cruelty and I can't see too much wrong with that I'm afraid.

Alexandra0814 – “I think that the topic of this thread is wandering a bit. But I can't help noticing that the two (apparently male) farming identities seem to be relying largely on insults and sexist remarks because they are being argued with.”

Dickies 1st post on this thread –“That this hypocrite (myopinion) can attack anyone is astonishing. He advised on the cull thread that he is a former sheep farmer and that he rode bulls here and in the US.”

“by the rash of inhumane "myopinions" who are driven by greed to suppress vital information.”

Nicky’s 1st post on this thread –“Myopinion, you are already a self-confessed animal cruelty practitioner.”

Go to page two and read my response to dickie’s assumed claims about me. You will see that I responded appropriately and without any verbal abuse, unlike those two. However if you had read the whole thread, you would already know that.

Her response was to me; “Clearly you have a cruel indifference to and a relish for the atrocious practices of the industries you have participated in.”

These two started the verbal abuse and continue to use it. When they cop it back they can’t handle it.
They have both changed the direction of this thread that was started by me, on at least two occasions. This is for their own personal little jihad against anyone that doesn’t agree with their notion of how the world should be.
They have answered very few of the questions put to them, and if they don’t have an answer they have then verbally insulted the person asking the question.

I find it mind boggling that you appear on this thread and then accuse myself and Yabby of being sexist and verbally abusive. Can't you read English properly? If you’re going to make a comment, then why don’t you make a comment that is unbiased and constructive? However if you want to continue with your false assumptions, feel free and join the other two.

Alexandra0814,

Alexandra0814 now is it? Ok Nicky Debby Suzzane whatever. I note all the dodgey bodgey names who hide like crooks in the night.
Whats the matter with you lot. Why cant you be honest about who you are like us.
Anyway what I say to you all:) is this.
The fact you have to ask me what pale has done in its few short years is an example of your ignorance.
I am not going to sit and crow because we are WELL off the mark from achieving what we want.
We have given the people of this country a clear alternative apart from just the veggie approach.

We have worked with rather than against RSPCA by working in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

We have shown some real leadership by signing off on mous with leaders of the Islamic Councils.

We have even managed to give some farmers some assistance and a new programe

Mind you the ever faithful sneaky mob have trudged to back doors in the last eighteen months.

However thats not something you two girls would be aware of because I am sure 'IMOP your only used to come in here posting anti pale comments.
You have NO idea whats going on but stick with your 'little agenda' to discredit pale. By the emails we are getting the public finally can see its a clear agenda to stop us from diverting live to chilled at all costs.

Isnt that right? You dont want to stop live meats. You want to STOP all meats.

They dont want any changes to their industry which is imop fund raising.

Now if I am wrong then it can only be they are stupid.

Its one or the other. Er, in hindsite perhaps I am wrong.

Blimey it could be both!

Hi all

Poor Alexandra, that will teach you. Never mind, Dickie and I are used to this rubbish from myopninion, Yabby and PALE. As I decided earlier, I'm not even going to bother going there with the former two, I've been down the track too often, going over the same tired ground.

PALE is an interesting case though. It has "signed off on MoUs with Muslim Leaders". So:-

How many MoUs?
What were the provisions of these MoUs?
What was the legal standing of these documents and what is it now (since there are no office-bearers at AFIC at this time)?
What precisely did they achieve in "fazing" (sic) out live exports
How many farmers - exactly - has PALE assisted and what form did that assistance take?
How many slaughterhouses has HKM opened and where are they?
To what extent have they impacted on the numbers of animals exported live?
Are animals pre-stunned at these slaughterhouses?
What exactly does PALE's "team of lawyers" (all of whom I suspect are related to PALE's Director in Chief and Director of HKM) do (other than threaten the rest of us with legal action every time we disagree with PALE)?

You see, we NEVER get any ANSWERS to these questions, just barrages of hate and delusion, because so many people have opposed PALE, for whatever reason, PALE thinks they are all one person. I keep asking for just a shred of proof that PALE has actually achieved anything other than the complete alienation of the entire animal advocacy community.

BTW, what is the connection between violence and common sense?

Alexandra, don't let it get to you! Dickie and I don't.

Nicky

Nicky
We have been open with everyone.

Many of the things you keep asking comes under others people biz in confidence. Surley that is not the way they teach people these days in uni to handle such matters.

Once you came out from behind your false names you were further invited to join the mou.

It just so happens that was a very important part of it.

It was really important for AA or someone to then co ordinate their different groups working under their umbrella. To assist with establishing animal welfare Muslim groups in each state of Australia.

The other part was working as hosts to introduce Muslim visitors to farmers. Talking to farmers to make them aware of this oportunity to meet with buyers direct.

Helping to identify land for new plants- again by working with farmers.
The rest would have to be left up to us. However of course as usual I am waisting my breath.

If you really care about animals pls know only by DOING it- 'Opening more plants'- instead of talking about it= will actually faze out live exports.

Oh but I forgot you oppose reopening plants Dont you.? Be honest. Instead of bagging Yabby and farmers. Make them a better offer- 0r at least an equal one.

Do the homework and bring on a federal case taking on the Government.
Yup its doable BUT Remember this, If Rudd banned it tomorrow it would mean nothing zilch. Why?

Because we would still need more plants to handle it. Thats WHY all our efforts go in that direction.

Hi again all

1. I do not use false names, I don't need to. I use a nickname so that I can't be contacted directly by people with whom I choose not to be involved

2. I am not a member of any animal advocacy groups therefore would not be working under any such umbrella. I also choose not to associate myself with your Muslim friends for reasons given multiple times, and farmers have more than enough people sucking up to them already.

3. "Commercial in Confidence" is the line that the government and the exporters use. Is it significant that PALE uses the same line? It's about hiding information from the public.

4. And I'll say it again - if your idea was the solution we would have seen it. So clearly that idea was never going to work.

5. And still we have no answers to the questions asked.

Dickie is right. Perhaps your Muslim friends would be better putting their money where their mouths are and representing the cruelty issues to their own countries, not the least being the fact that the meat the "poor" (and the rich) are being provided with, from brutalized animals, is not in fact halal, it is haram. I don't think you have too much hope of converting them to abating the cruelty either, here or in other countries. It's the culture. The solution is not to send them animals, and it not up to anyone to offer farmers alternatives. They should be able to do business in line with community values and expectations, but, as with their "husbandry" techniques, they will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming to change. And that may have to happen through international pressure.

(Continues)

Nicky

Nicky –“The solution is not to send them animals, and it not up to anyone to offer farmers alternatives. They should be able to do business in line with community values and expectations, but, as with their "husbandry" techniques, they will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming to change. And that may have to happen through international pressure.”

Well the fanatic has spoken again. Statements like what is above really shows how stupid and uneducated you are when it comes to knowing anything about farming. You and your other brainless half dickie continue to criticise and verbally abuse farming and farmers in this country. Why don’t you go and do it to their faces since you both think you’re so brave. As I said once before “the faceless cowards of the internet.”

You obviously don’t understand anything about how the economy works, what international trade or agreements mean. You are living in dream land if you think that any government in this country, be it Labour or Coalition, are going to stop the live export trade unless there is a viable alternative. The prejudices and ranting of you two will have no effect on their decision. Think of what comes from farming: wool, mutton, beef, pork, vegetables, diary products, fruit, wheat, sunflower, oats, cotton etc., etc. Now think of all the offshoot products that come from each of the above and then work out what that is worth to the economy and to the value of exports. You two have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. It’s your little ‘claim to fame’, running around the internet big naming yourselves and writing absolute nonsensical gibberish because you’re gullible.

As for your pathetic threat “they will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming to change. And that may have to happen through international pressure.”

Nicky you have stated that your cousin is a psychiatrist in Melbourne and who is fascinated by delusions, particularly those to do with self-aggrandizement.
You should book yourself in for an appointment, and take dickie, you might get a group discount.

Continues...

Perhaps while the Muslims are about it, the farmers could join them and say "we object to our animals being tortured like this". No, not them, because there's a few extra bucks to be made here.

They are foolish if they think PETA has dropped its opposition to the live export trade, and look what PETA has achieved with mulesing. There would have been no research into alternatives had PETA not exposed it world wide. Now it's a matter of exposing other aspects of the livestock industry in Australia - and we're working on that. The international community has made it clear that mulesing is unacceptable since awareness has grown - we just need to keep getting the information about live exports, long distance transports within Australia and some of their other nasty practices out there. Time consuming, but achievable. We just have to encourage the international boycotts, if we could do it over mulesing we can do it over live exports.

Nicky

"You obviously don’t understand anything about how the economy works, what international trade or agreements mean."

We understand much more than you Dipsy Doo. Your total lack of rationale in any of your arrogant rants, reveals that you would not have the foggiest about live exports which, last year realised $690,000 and chilled and frozen meat exports some $6 billion.

When a ban was imposed on live exports to the ME, chilled and frozen meat exports increased.

One plus one equals two but maths are not taught in lunatic asylums.

Therefore, must you persist in making a goose of yourself? Go away and take your medication - please.

"last year realised $690,000 and chilled and frozen meat exports some $6 billion."

Correction. Should read:

last year realised $690 million and chilled and frozen meat exports some $6 billion."

Good night all

*and look what PETA has achieved with mulesing.*

Yup, huge numbers of sheep will die miserable and slow deaths,
eaten alive by maggots, because of Peta's actions.

What a sad story of the law of unintended consequences in
action and you people are still too stupid to understand it.
So many animals will suffer because of your actions.

Hi all

Those sheep will only die slow terrible deaths becaus:

Farmers have interfered with the breeding of these animals, creating a breed unsuited to the Australian environment
Farmers neglect them by failing to monitor/treat them properly
Farmers won't pay for more frequent crutching
Farmers feed Merino sheep incorrect diets
Farmers insist on farming these animals in areas to which they are unsuited
Farmers are greedy and insist on breeding/keeping more animals than they can adequately care for then complain bitterly at the cost of medication for them

As for myopinion, once again you are in fairyland, but I won't bother going there.

Nicky

Whatever you want to accuse farmers of Nicky, I can assure you that
the magic fairy is not going to come along with her magic wand
and wave it over farmers.

Farmers, like women are made up of all sorts of people, good, bad,
indifferent, caring, less caring.

What is now going to happen, is that huge numbers of sheep will
suffer and die, because of Peta's actions, which at least had
some protection from blowfly strike before.

If Peta had half a brain, they would have pushed for Trisolfen.

Instead, they think that the magic fairy is going to come along
with her wand. I have news for you!

With rising fuel prices and sheep worth 20 bucks a head, do you
think that the magic fairy will make farmers check their sheep
more often?

Ignore human nature and the law of unintended consequences at your
peril.

Fact is that millions of sheep will suffer because of Peta's actions
and farmers won't feel a thing.

So frigging intelligent, you lot.

"With rising fuel prices and sheep worth 20 bucks a head"

Strange that Yabby. I could have sworn you told us some time ago that your live sheep exports got you around $60 a head. Have you "forgotten" to elaborate on that?

You would of course realise by now that liars have bad memories.

My memory is quite good.

Shall I go looking for that comment or I shall I be sufficiently presumptious in saying that you are yet again, tampering with the truth?

*Strange that Yabby. I could have sworn you told us some time ago that your live sheep exports got you around $60 a head. Have you "forgotten" to elaborate on that?
You would of course realise by now that liars have bad memories.
My memory is quite good. *

At least your memory is better then Nicky, she forgets everything.
But your knowledge of farming is non existant, which is the
problem.

What you forget is that ewes stay on farms for years and their
value for most of the last 12 months has been around the 20$
mark. Its them who cop the rough end of the pineapple in this
deal.

As to lambs, yup they can be worth 60$ on a boat. The same lambs
sold locally, might make 20$. In fact that is exactly what I was
paid for the balance of those which did not go on a boat, but
went locally, for merino lambs.

Once again Dickie, your imagination running astray, when honesty
is all that is needed to prove you wrong, time and time again.

Dickie – “My memory is quite good.”

Well when you don’t have much in it I suppose it would be. Still at your age dementia and Alzheimer’s wouldn’t be far away.

Nicky – “Those sheep will only die slow terrible deaths because:

Farmers have interfered with the breeding of these animals, creating a breed unsuited to the Australian environment
Farmers neglect them by failing to monitor/treat them properly
Farmers won't pay for more frequent crutching
Farmers feed Merino sheep incorrect diets
Farmers insist on farming these animals in areas to which they are unsuited
Farmers are greedy and insist on breeding/keeping more animals than they can adequately care for then complain bitterly at the cost of medication for them.”

Well the ‘brains trust’ of the animal liberation world is once again making her outlandish and unproved statements.

Let me dissect nicky’s latest accusations against farmers. By making the above statements she has generalised, ie., referred to most or all sheep farmers.

“Farmers have interfered with the breeding of these animals, creating a breed unsuited to the Australian environment.”

Is that so? Why then would the Merino, which is the most adaptable to Australian conditions, be the breed that suffers the most from fly strike? How have farmers interfered with the breeding of sheep to make them more susceptible to fly strike?

“Farmers neglect them by failing to monitor/treat them properly.”

Show the proof and list the points that show that farmers fail to treat them properly.

“Farmers won't pay for more frequent crutching.”

How many times should farmers have their sheep crutched per annum?

“Farmers feed Merino sheep incorrect diets.”

List the incorrect diets that farmers feed their Merino’s and then list what you consider are the correct diets.

“Farmers insist on farming these animals in areas to which they are unsuited.”

Give examples, particularly W.A.

“Farmers are greedy and insist on breeding/keeping more animals than they can adequately care for then complain bitterly at the cost of medication for them.”

Explain this sentence as it doesn’t make sense. Provide proof and examples.
I look forward to the reply.

"Fact is that millions of sheep will suffer because of Peta's actions
and farmers won't feel a thing."

Uh uh. Sheep will suffer because farmers grow the wrong sheep in the wrong country. They've had several centuries to get the message but they preferred to inflict pain on innocent animals unsuitable for this climate.

Of course that wouldn't apply to those who have responsibly reduced their merino stock to invest in bare breech sheep.

Would yours by Afrinos Yabby?

Hi all

1. The Merino sheep was specifically interfered with to create an animal with more wrinkles so that it would grow more wool. It's about genetics and breeding. EVERYONE knows that.

2. The numbers of sheep who are reported to die on your farms

3. Two to three, from what I've been told by a sheep farmer (depending on the area and the type of paddocks). But it's cheaper to cut half their backsides away once (or whatever it it takes). Then - what do you do when the wound gets flystruck? Or other parts of the sheep do? Just keep cutting? And of course, those who get to live long enough are later prone to skin cancers.

4. Will provide the dietary information tomorrow; it's too late in the night to find it now

5. The same

6. Blindlingly obvious to anyone who can decipher a sentence

Nicky

Has any animal welfare / liberation organisation set up a trial sheep farm so that they can demonstrate all the cost effective, logical, simple, enlightened, profitable and brilliant sheep farming innovations?

Seems to be a logical thing to do if the change merchants 'know' they are right and 'know' the traditionalists are wrong. Showing by doing is a powerful argument. Will we see them on the New Inventors or Landline on the ABC?

Much more effective and timely than nagging, nagging and more nagging and then nagging some more.

CJ, they would last about 5 minutes in farming, as they simply
don't understand what it is all about. I've seen academics
in agriculture make similar mistakes, just not as silly as
these girls. They focus on one thing, be it root disease
on crops, or whatever their area of focus is. They think that
the whole farming system should be changed, to focus on their
pet topic.

Farming of course is a constant compromise between many things,
that have to be considered. Change one thing, it affects other
things etc. So you have to take a holistic view, or you will
soon go broke.

If this was just all about skin wrinkles, as Nicky claims,
then breeds like Samms would not be getting struck as often
as they do. Fact is that if Nicky had wool growing around her
anus, she'd have a dirty, blownblown arse too.

Mulesing removes a small amount of skin from around sheeps butts,
not half the lamb as claimed, no flesh as claimed. It heals
very quickly and gives them huge protection for life. I've
never lost a single lamb from mulesing and if I was to grow wool
in the future, I would certainly keep mulesing, anything else
is cruel to sheep. Ok, so use Trisolfen, if its available.

I think that is going to happen. Sensible farmers will simply
tell Peta to shove it up their arse and sell their wool to the
Chinese. Let the Europeans buy Arab oil to keep warm. Production
is dropping anyhow, as farmers switch to more profitable enterprises.

Nicky – “The Merino sheep was specifically interfered with to create an animal with more wrinkles so that it would grow more wool. It's about genetics and breeding. EVERYONE knows that.”

Where is your proof that the merinos I farmed or any of my neighbours had been bred with more wrinkles? You once again made a general statement, and you think you’re an expert on breeding, so now is the time to prove it. Also explain what they mean by “more wrinkles”.

nicky –“Farmers neglect them by failing to monitor/treat them properly.”

Your reply:

Nicky –“The numbers of sheep who are reported to die on your farms.”

So with no proof, no factual statistics, you just make a statement like this. This is why your reasoning and dickies is absurd and pathetic, a bit like your character and personality.

While we are looking at the truth of proof and statistics, I had a look at this Animal Liberation site and like the gullible nicky-and-dickie-road-show, it makes totally unsubstantiated claims regarding the treatment of farmed sheep. This is the site http://www.animalliberation.org.au/sheep2.php

Before we go any further, the references attributed to these statements cannot be accessed from this site and are only named. These are some of the spurious claims made by Animal Liberation Inc. (South Australia). Do note that it says animal liberation and not animal welfare. They are two separate things whether animal liberationists agree or not.

1) (a)“Most sheep don't get a lot of attention from farmers. About two-thirds of the national flock is on properties with over 2000 sheep, (b) so the individual animal is unlikely to be closely inspected, given help with difficult births, or hand-reared if the mother dies.”

The two claims that I have marked as (a) and (b) are complete lies and a baseless fabrication of anything near the truth. I was born, raised and worked in sheep country. We ran 14,000 sheep so I think I can talk more about this subject than the usual naysayer’s and the advocates of the anti-farming lobby present on this forum.

Continued……….

Continued……….

Where is the indisputable proof that farmers neglect their sheep flocks?
Where is the indisputable proof that farmers don’t closely inspect their sheep?
Where is the indisputable proof that farmers don’t provide help to ewes having difficult births?
Where is the indisputable proof that farmers don’t hand rear lambs if the mother dies?

Some more questions for the radical extremists of animal liberation, ie nicky and dickie:

How many times does a farmer check his sheep during winter?
How many times does a farmer check his sheep during summer?

Animal Liberation Inc. (South Australia) makes this claim on their site:

“Almost one-quarter of all sheep are run in the so-called pastoral zone, that is, the arid and semi-arid inland areas. They have been described as semi-feral because they wander over large areas and have only infrequent contact with humans.”

Further down the page they make this claim:

“The fact is that of all the animals introduced to Australia, the sheep is the only one that has never become feral because it can't survive on its own.”

On the same page, Animal Liberation Inc. (South Australia) has completely contradicted itself by saying that sheep have never become feral and then state they become half feral.

I, unlike the misinformed Animal Liberation Inc. (South Australia), nicky and dickie, have worked on sheep stations and I can guarantee 100% THAT SHEEP DO GO FERAL. I have seen dozens of sheep that haven’t been yarded, handled, mustered or shorn for over seven years. Try catching them or mustering them and see how far you get.

This is why these animal liberation organizations spin their cheap propaganda with mistruths and lies. They have never worked in this industry and no very little about it, their statements, accusations and claims prove they are liars and uneducated on this subject. They pander to the ‘fruit loop’ fringe of society like nicky and dicky, who them become their misguided disciples of spin, lies and absurd propaganda.

IF YOU’RE GOING TO MAKE ACCUSATIONS, CLAIMS AND OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENTS, AND LIES, THEN EXPECT TO BE BROUGHT TO ACCOUNT.

Nicky - “Farmers won't pay for more frequent crutching.”

I asked you “How many times should farmers have their sheep crutched per annum?”

Your reply – “Two to three, from what I've been told by a sheep farmer (depending on the area and the type of paddocks).”

So one farmer gave you this advice and was speaking from experience of having farmed over the whole of W.A. Grow up! As usual 5% fact and 95% bullsh-t!

Since you and dickie are the self proclaimed ‘experts’ on farming sheep, answer these questions:

How much does it cost to have sheep crutched by a shearing team?
What is the cost of mustering the sheep for shearing, including fuel and wages?
Why would you crutch sheep 2-3 times a year in a drier climate?
Will the wool from the crutchings pay for the total cost of crutching them?
Why won’t just crutching sheep eliminate fly strike?

Nicky - “Farmers feed Merino sheep incorrect diets.”

I then asked you to “List the incorrect diets that farmers feed their Merino’s and then list what you consider are the correct diets.”

Your reply was, “Will provide the dietary information tomorrow; it's too late in the night to find it now.”

So you didn’t have time to rifle through your book cabinet or file and find the ‘so called correct diet’ but you had time to jump to other threads on OLO and continue on with your dribble. Why would you have to even look it up, you’re a self claimed expert, you should know it of by heart. A farmer would know what ratio per head he was feeding his stock and what diet they were on.

You also made this statement, ““Farmers are greedy and insist on breeding/keeping more animals than they can adequately care for then complain bitterly at the cost of medication for them.”

Provide proof that sheep farmer on the whole are overstocked. Also provide proof that farmers are greedy. In fact do tell everyone, how many rams would you mate with a thousand ewes and what would the lambing rate be.

Hi all

Here's one for the skeptics...

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gFjSvfPljLsGgujOFLoX1cORzUDw

Nicky

Err Nicky, has it ever occured to you that every man and his dog
who think they can make a quid out of selling farmers "you beaut"
genetics, is not going to do so?

SRS genetics are all over WA. Sheep still get blown.
Samms, not even Aussie breeding, but a meat sheep from South
Africa with not a wrinkle in sight, still get blown.

Its going to take a bit more then the odd bit of googling,
for you to give credible answers.

Obviously Nick-n-Dick have never stepped foot on a real Aussie sheep station. The size of the places makes it impossible to regularly check on the sheep.

It is common knowledge that all domestic animals become feral after a period of time. Cattle, cats, dogs, goats, pigs and even sheep become wild and unpredictable when left to survive on their own.

What special diets do sheep have? Well they eat grass and more grass. The only possible incorrect diet that would be fed sheep would be when there is a severe drought and there is no grass to eat.

I was once told by one of the most Australia's senior veterinarians that the inventor of mulesing was honoured with an award for animal welfare. Due to the fact that mulesing enormously improved the welfare of sheep.

PETA is not interested in the welfare of sheep only the destruction of farming. The destruction of farm families. The destruction of farm children. The destruction of farm communities. The destruction of farm suppliers.

Nick-n-Dick please explain why PETA doesn't start a trial / demonstration farm. They certainly have the money. They could sell DVDs of the initiative and educate the world.

Still waiting for a detailed elaboration of cruelty and the clubbing of seals.

Hi all

I've already said that I'm over engaging in repetitive debate with the cruelty fraternity any more, so I'm not even going to bother to go there with this latest round of SUPER repetitive claptrap.

The link is referenced perfectly properly, in accordance with academic principles. All you have to do is find the documents. Hardly rocket science.

Nicky

"Still waiting for a detailed elaboration of cruelty and the clubbing of seals."

Don't need to elaborate Mouth Almighty. Cruelty is already officially documented in this country, in Canada and throughout the world.

2000 to 2007 Australia (DAFF): Four hundred and fourteen thousand (414,000) animals succumbing to the inhumane incarceration on the ships of death and dumped overboard whilst small children die from starvation, reduced to skin and bone and slipping into comas from malnutrition whilst their parents kill and are killed for a morsel of sustenance.

Despite this abomination and the urgent global requirement to grow more crops to sustain the poor, the environmentally destructive, foul mouthed, sadistic scumbags would have you believe that one's lamb chop was never a sentient being that wanted to frolick and feel the sun on its back.

Rather, the mouths insist that the lambs and their brothers enjoy a miserable life containing torture and pain ending with muffled screams induced by the gluttonous, profit-driven barbaric executioner.

And what rights have the compassionate in this "fair" land to spoil Sunday's lunch with stories of animals being mutilated and beaten, suspended live on hooks, dumped overboard or drowning in their own faeces?

“Jim Watts, who runs the breeding consultancy SRS Company, said that merino sheep genetically bred to be wrinkle-free were naturally immune to fly-strike, a disease in which the insects eat the animal's flesh.”

Rubbish! Wrinkle free sheep will still get fly blown. They won’t get flyblown as much as sheep with wrinkles but they will still get flyblown. Poll Dorsets and Border Leisters are two examples. Merino’s getting flyblown is also relevant to the amount of oil in the wool.

“Watts, who was nominated by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals to be part of an Australian Wool Innovation panel on alternatives, said wrinkle-free sheep were first bred in the 1930s but lost out to mulesing, which was invented at about the same time.”

Well, well. Isn’t this a conflicting interest? Nominated by Peta to be part of the Australian Wool Innovation panel on alternatives.

Nicky – are you suffering from some form of dementia? I asked for unbiased information, in other words FACTS! Due to you vast lack of experience and knowledge of the sheep farming industry you continually show immaturity and gullibility. You post all this stuff with a lot of fanfare and self adulation and then when you get ‘hammered’ with the facts by people like us that know what we are talking about, it makes you look even more stupid than you make yourself!

You and your in-bred mate, dickie, like Peta, Animals Australia and other animal liberation groups have approached a complex problem with your simplistic arguments. It doesn’t work, you will only ever con a very small amount of people, and you won’t get your way with the government. Cults like Peta will always be ostracized by the majority, because they are divisive, push their agenda of total veganism, and spin propaganda and lies. If you had any say or were worthwhile listening to, you wouldn’t be wasting your time here feebly trying to convince and recruit people.

*The link is referenced perfectly properly, in accordance with academic principles. All you have to do is find the documents. Hardly rocket science.*

Err Nicky,thats not going to help those sheep one little bit, as
they die from blowfly strike, due to Peta's actions. All very sad
really, vegan stupidity.

*with stories of animals being mutilated and beaten, suspended live on hooks, dumped overboard or drowning in their own faeces?*

Meantime the lambs are happily frolicking in the paddocks, chewing
pasture, playing games with one another, sucking on mom's teat,
enjoying life

Thanks for the rational response Dick.

Please focus - I would like your opinion about the exact nature of cruelty and sealing. I think there must be a reason they club the seals as there are other ways of killing them. I genuinely want to know.

Is there any video of seals being skinned alive?

"Still waiting for a detailed elaboration of cruelty and the clubbing of seals."

Don't need to elaborate Mouth Almighty. Cruelty is already officially documented in this country, in Canada and throughout the world.

2000 to 2007 Australia (DAFF): Four hundred and fourteen thousand (414,000) animals succumbing to the inhumane incarceration on the ships of death and dumped overboard whilst small children die from starvation, reduced to skin and bone and slipping into comas from malnutrition whilst their parents kill and are killed for a morsel of sustenance.

Despite this abomination and the urgent global requirement to grow more crops to sustain the poor, the environmentally destructive, foul mouthed, sadistic scumbags would have you believe that one's lamb chop was never a sentient being that wanted to frolick and feel the sun on its back.

Rather, the mouths insist that the lambs and their brothers enjoy a miserable life containing torture and pain ending with muffled screams induced by the gluttonous, profit-driven barbaric executioner.

And what rights have the compassionate in this "fair" land to spoil Sunday's lunch with stories of animals being mutilated and beaten, suspended live on hooks, dumped overboard or drowning

*with stories of animals being mutilated and beaten, suspended live on hooks, dumped overboard or drowning in their own faeces?*

Meantime the lambs are happily frolicking in the paddocks, chewing
pasture, playing games with one another, sucking on mom's teat,
enjoying life
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 14 June 2008 12:02:22 AM

Yaby
Could you please explain to me what you mean by the above post pls.
What are you saying, that because you allow them a part of life after they are born that perhaps that gives us the right to inflict them with a death by slowly dieing and suspending them on hooks WHILE STILL ALIVE SCREAMING IN PAIN!!

loaded up on six tear ships with urine burning their eyes sending then BLIND.
Throwing them overboard IMOP is a small mercury.
I dont CARE if you get twenty bucks more forty or hundred.
Australia is NOT such a desperate country it has to make an extra twenty or forty bucks blood money peddling in mass misery of millions of Animals.
AND I dont HEAR the farmers DEMANDING the Government allow more plants to open EITHER.
It seems we are the ONLY ones doing that.
Get out of the kitchen and get some staff from NZ and get some plants open.

Cowboy Joe,

Your not saying you approve of bashing seals - surley.

It was a question not a suggestion.

I repeat - why do they use clubs instead of another implement?

Cheaper than bullets, and recyclable, of course.

Nicky
PS You will find my answers to your earlier questions at the time you asked them,

Precisely Pale and well said! Note how the scum persist with their irrelevant, giddy froth? This is a ploy to hide the evidence we present - to render a post obsolete and to bury it from prying eyes. Note the cowboy's diabolic attempts to distract us by switching the topic to Canada and the slaughter of baby seals? All these remedial dropkicks have the same evil agenda - just different strategies to gag us.

Too true Nicky. The more bullet marks in the skins of baby seals, the fewer the profits.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/marine_mammals_news/seal_hunt_document.html

http://ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=28259

"Still waiting for a detailed elaboration of cruelty and the clubbing of seals."

Don't need to elaborate Mouth Almighty. Cruelty is already officially documented in this country, in Canada and throughout the world.

2000 to 2007 Australia (DAFF): Four hundred and fourteen thousand (414,000) animals succumbing to the inhumane incarceration on the ships of death and dumped overboard whilst small children die from starvation, reduced to skin and bone and slipping into comas from malnutrition whilst their parents kill and are killed for a morsel of sustenance.

Despite this abomination and the urgent global requirement to grow more crops to sustain the poor, the environmentally destructive, foul mouthed, sadistic scumbags would have you believe that one's lamb chop was never a sentient being that wanted to frolick and feel the sun on its back.

Rather, the mouths insist that the lambs and their brothers enjoy a miserable life containing torture and pain ending with muffled screams induced by the gluttonous, profit-driven barbaric executioner.

And what rights have the compassionate in this "fair" land to spoil Sunday's lunch with stories of animals being mutilated and beaten, suspended live on hooks, dumped overboard or drowning in their own faeces?

*the urgent global requirement to grow more crops to sustain the poor,*

err Dickie you dummkopf, we do grow crops. Are you so dumb about
West Australian agriculture?

Meantime we know what goes on, on the boats, supervised by
Australian vets. The sheep gain weight!

Your propaganda is about as accurate as your description of
mulesing. But then neither of you know a thing about farming.

This is what happens, when fanatics with an admitted agenda,
promote their dogma. It is also why nobody takes any notice
of you lot

Dickie “the urgent global requirement to grow more crops to sustain the poor”

I think the urgent need is to find ways of curtailing the poor through population control; then fewer crops would be needed.

Of course seeing how you ramble on like a three day old pork chop I could suggest open season and a bounty for a pair of ears but that would be too much even for me, a humble Skippy munching BBQer.

Now you seem to have time to post your venom here dickie but still have no evidence that I write in support of cartels, as you fraudulently claimed on another thread.

So where is your evidence or are you just better at running off at the mouth with cheap shots than substantiating your accusations.

Btw I am not stalking you (another of your errant accusations), just holding you accountable for what you have previously stated.

Yabby I take notice of dickie, it falls into that 365 day open season on the self-righteous meddlers.

2000 to 2007 Australia (DAFF): Four hundred and fourteen thousand (414,000) animals succumbing to the inhumane incarceration on the ships of death and dumped overboard whilst small children die from starvation, reduced to skin and bone and slipping into comas from malnutrition whilst their parents kill and are killed for a morsel of sustenance.

Err Dickie, you will find its more like 40 million or so that were
shipped and died. Thats the whole idea, people eat them. On boats
no more die then in any Australian feedlot.

If you want to feed the starving, you are free to buy them before
they go on a ship and do exactly that. Farming is a business, not
a charity. Better still, the Vatican is filthy rich, let them
feed the starving which they helped create, with their anti condoms
anti family planning dogma.

Either put up or shut up. Those sheep are for sale in Australia,
for those who want to buy them.

Hi all

Col Rouge, in principle I agree with you bout the millions of "starving poor", but Yabby, in his haste to throw in "red herrings", lays the blame for that at the door of the Catholic church, which probably has very little to do with it since the vast majority of these people would never have heard of the Catholic Church or its policies on birth control. However, I agree that birth control is an obvious solution.

As Yabby points out, farm animals are born to die; they get to "enjoy" life at the hands of these farmers for as long as these people determine they are allowed to live (and that's not very long in the cases of the millions not used for "breeding" (who said that it all happens naturally?) I agree with PALE here. You people who are happy to load these animals onto these ships,in the full knowledge of the horror that awaits them will hopefully face a special kind of karma when your time comes.

Unfortunately for you people, the world IS listening, that's why there are new international boycotts against the Australian wool industry happening almost every week. And we're working to expand them them, in our small way, all the time, by making public the things that happen under Australia's "World's Best Practice".

Nicky

Cowboy
I honestly do not know. I would think a bullet with a silencer on it would be kinder.

Yes C R is correct. There are too many people in the world (No pun intended:) Does anybody recall the name of the Aussie PM Years ago that fell from grace because he spoke out against aid.
He said if we continued for another fifty sixty years supplying enough food for these displaced people to re breed we would face a world problem that would bite us on the bum globally.



You know if people don’t believe in religion -who said we have the right to kill another living creature.

The whole act of taking a life and eating it is primitive and barbaric when you think about it TBO.

Here comes Yabbs calling pale a closet veggie... I don’t indulge very often because I know it will get us nowhere- but still…

Perhaps Dickie will take up some of the offers put to her to run a research station farm.
You know I think it wouldn’t be long before the birth population dropped in the areas she was providing meat to. Hehe

Hey guys you know - If animals must suffer and be used at the hands of humans I reckon they should be put to good use and at least get some Karma.

Yep working under foreign aid you’d get a fair "kick back" too.
Just ask those feed lot owners that we pay for in our taxes.
To make it even more effective you could start with the richer men in the poorer areas who are the big kings of their regions.

Wouldnt take long for word to pass around that eating meat made less of a man of you. Unable to have children.

Stranger things have happened and you know how all these meat rumors stick around for years:)


I pray every night Kevin Rudd comes back as a cow exported LIVE having his eyes pulled out with human hands and a hook through arse while still alive.

Starved on water and pissed on for three months.

+Dickie, you will notice …
Nicky people respond in the way they are approached. Myopinion seems no different.

+. I had no idea you had a VOLUNTEER who (also)* went into hiding from you - you happened to throw that in.

Nicky "you raised this person." You’re being dishonest to now to pretend you don’t know what I am talking about.

I’ve always told you –You raise it-+ we’ll respond honestly.


I remind you that it was ‘you’ (WE) that went out of your way to post on a public forum -that some poor person was forced to sell their house and move so we could not find them.

“That was to infer that pale must be pretty scary awful people and to discredit us”.

It was a nasty bitchy untruthful comment.

BTW I don’t care what you can imagine re the petition for live exports- Ask Lyn.

, +why would you think that the Handle with Care coalition would have any use for +Pale’s lawyers? It's just PALE not wanting to be left out of the action, of course.

Nicky why do you (WE) make RSPCA QLD Pales business your business?
Your all so busy worrying about what pale are doing its pathetic.
As you asked so nicely I will tell you.

Because they have years of knowledge.

Er,What action are you suggesting we are missing out on.?
20 years later! and nobody even 'thought' to ask Muslims for help or farmers and work with them instead of bagging them.


To top it off we joined OLO and posted comments for others to read about ‘our’ ideas and ‘programs’. Sin of All Sins to You( WE)

Followed closely by you (WE) with your hatred and nasty posts aimed at us.

I said I couldn’t print what Christa said Nicky because believeme it WONT help Animals.

Nor are we trying to discredit Animals Australia - what rubbish.

You’re ( WE) the only one doing that. They are just as much victims of you as we are.

FYI Lyn is one of our favorite people.

Unfortunately i doubt those poor, poor children would be able to afford Australian chopped, chilled and packaged meat, but it's a good story nonetheless.
They may however have access to the offal and tallow from slaughter in the ME, that would be otherwise be used in biodiesel here or exported to china for soap making.

Hi Nicky,
"farm animals are born to die", that seems quite alike every known animal - humans included. The only difference is lifespan, which is generally curtailed in the farmed for food variety. What i have yet to hear from any one is why day 44 is different from day 97, 235 or 730 in an animals life. At some point their life will end, and old age in the animal kingdom is far from pleasant.
Having said that male chicks in the egg industry are an unlucky bunch.

I see you've seen The Land article on the backlash against Peta, and the growing number of prominant supporters of the Australian wool industry. I don't think peta will like it either.

Hey Rojo, welcome back.

Male chicks are certainly an unlucky bunch. But any farm animal that is not profitable would meet the same fate really. Not all fit into large blenders though. The problem that I have is that farm animals have no choice in the matter of whether they live or die, what they have to endure in their short lives at the hands of farmers, nor how brutal that death will be.

And you call that a backlash? A couple of obscure "designers" no-one has ever heard of? I doubt if that will rattle PETA in the slightest (or us for that matter)

PALE, you do not answer ANYTHING honestly (this "we" after "you" in every sentence gets a bit tedious in trying to decipher what you are trying to say but let that be. We have to have the dramatic effect, don't we?).

I asked you:

If PALE is an incorporated organization (with the tax breaks that go with that)
How many members PALE has
Why you have a Paypal donation link on your website if you do not collect funds and what you do with those funds
How many slaughterhouses you have managed to re-open and where they are
Are the animals pre-stunned at these slaughterhouses
When your Muslim friend said he was going to speak out against live exports (he mustn't have much media clout if he already has)

You could also tell us how many staff (real people) PALE has (paid and volunteer), since we are into "honesty".

Now, you say I should know about this volunteer. How? Through divine intervention? Perhaps you could also enlighten us about why this person (and the one I know about, and who knows how many more) felt so threatened that they had to move away.

You said on the other thread that you WOULD post "what Christa said", but I knew you wouldn't. More histrionics about PALE being "blacklisted"?

Nicky

Nicky

She said too things. Firstly she was very happy we contacted both Bridgett B and herself.

Asked to send footage to us to give to 60 Minutes or whoever instead of the usual contact.

Claimed after sending footage of live exports for almost twenty years nothing had happend. Said her invesigations were expensive.

Claimed sick to death of the patronizing manner and the way others were spoken down to.

Told us her contact in no uncertain terms that if the footage this time ( meaning then) wasnt released to the public she was not sending anything else "ever".


Raised issues od being VERY concerned that footage sent in the past had been purchased by farmers for very large amounts of money through another group =instead of being used to raise public awareness through the media.

Asked to send the footage to us to get out to the public. We invited instead to pay air faires and accomadation to meet 60 direct.

Most of the other things discussed come under private so there you go fyi.

PS Also Nicky what nonesense that pale wont answer your stupid questions. Whats with you Nick thats so dishonest
that one must consider you dangerous imo.

I have now drawn your attention three times to your fibs Nicky and you simple refuse to repond.

I am just wondering why you bother posting.

Nicky I GAVE you the fact MLA threatended a farmers accreditation because he creek fed instead of keeping them fill time in a feed lot.

"You didnt blink an eye."

Clearly you dont care. That was a gift from heaven 'IF'? You Had been serious about Animal Welfare.

You WOULD have jumped on that!

But PALE, you HAVEN'T answered my questions. Any of them. Again. Also, the creek fed story was your story, not mine. What was I supposed to do with it, for God's sake? If you think something should be said to the media or anyone else you should have said it. Do your own dirty work, don't expect others to pick up on what is quite likely a throwaway line and expect others to lay their credibility on the line without proof. You might be prepared to do that, but I'm not.

I also think that you should produce proof if you are going to claim that "another group sold footage to farmers for large sums of money". That WOULD be an actionable allegation.

I did answer your questions; those I was prepared to. The others, I simply stated that I wouldn't and why - because those matters were none of your business.

Nicky

*But any farm animal that is not profitable would meet the same fate really.*

Every creature makes a living, one way or another. Farm animals
are no different. Those species that have acclimatised to being
farmed, are actually thriving in numbers, no chance of them going
extinct.

* The problem that I have is that farm animals have no choice in the matter of whether they live or die.*

That is quite correct, for they have yet to show that they can
decide amongst themselves, what a sustainable population is. So
nature decides. In nature, the fittest survive, the rest starve
to death or are ripped to death by predators.

Farm animals are relatively better off. Rather then starving or
being ripped apart alive, farmers decide which ones live and which
ones go to slaughter.

Even you have a limited say about your life. If some guy runs
over you tomorrow, well that is just bad luck for you.

Hi all

Actually, Yabby, although I am by no means an expert on this, I understand that macropods do in fact have an innate ability to adjust their populations to the environments that sustain them.

Nicky

Nicky, Dickie-

The goal of this thread was to show PETA as being populated by people who resort to harsh extremist rhetoric rather than cooperating to achieve the best outcomes for animals, as is undertaken by genuinely caring organisations, such as the RSPCA (who I've a great deal of respect for, because they can make the hard decisions when 'grey' issues approach).

I've just one question: do you really think your responses are

a) likely to reinforce this perception of PETA or
b) show PETA (or its supporters) to consist of level headed, reasonable people, who are willing to calmly discuss the issues without resorting to emotive rhetoric or mudslinging?

I'm sure you can level any number of additional jibes at the rhetoric of your opponents, but I hardly think that will change anything.

*Also, the creek fed story was your story, not mine.*
No Nicky its a serious question that MLA ought to be made answerable for.
I thought this was supposed to be about the animals and how to improve conditions for them.
At least thats why we are here but clearly thats not the case with you. You are not interested in helping improve things for animals. You have shown us that time and time again.


Why should MLA take accreditation off farmers because they let a few animals walk around a bigger yard instead of being crushed in.

* What was I supposed to do with it, for God's sake?*
Run a campagne against feed lot owners setting standards for feed lot acreditation via MLA.

Ask WHY afarmer should loose his accreditation simply because he gave his animals a slightly bigger space to walk around.
Check out Feed lot Accreditations.
You (ME) should be interested- But as usual!

Why not ask Yabby Nicely if he knows anything that might help us to lift the accreditation to allow these farmers offering more space to be allowed to keep their accreditation .

You never know what advise you might get from people if you ask in a nice manner. Oh but I forgot your not interested.

PALE, I am (as a single private individual) certainly not going to "run a campagne (sic) about feedlots/creek feeding simply on the say-so of a throwaway line from PALE with no substantial information, even if I had the means to do so. It's YOUR story, YOU run a campaign, for heavens sake. Why are you always looking for everyone else to do what you say is the work you do? YOU ask Yabby for whatever it is you want.

You don't even say where this is or what it's about, for God's sake.

I have more than enough to do at the local level here, which I do alone (and unpaid and at my own expense and without any government handouts. I have to work in order to be able to do what I do).

If you hadn't managed to alienate everyone else in the animal advocacy movement you might be able to encourage someone else into helping you out.

You still haven't answered any of my questions either, this is just a throwaway to avoid them. You just want to be able to say that because someone didn't run with what could well be completely fictitious information, that you are the only person who cares about animals, when what you care most about is slaughtering them.

Nicky

*That WOULD be an actionable allegation.*
Which would be up to 'that' person.

TurnRightThenLeft,
We have had our differences but thanks for your comments for the animals sake. I should have said thank you to CJ and myopinion and old Yabbs too. Others as well.


I should have said sorry to you long ago. When I reread your comment you had not really meant it the way I took it.
So I hope its not too late Trunrightleft to say Sorry.

Yabby and a few others pointed out to me that its easy to loose your cool but it works against the animals.

So now if I feel I am loosing it I write a silly poem to Yabby instead. Which he of course ignores. Hell I hardley notice it because he ignores me mostly anyway:)

In Nickys and Dickeys defence I can only say you dont know probably how terrible and frustrating it is to see gross animal abuse on a daily basis.
The utter frustration and rage that runs through your body. This is stuff you dont see in the media - trust me.

For anybody interested in Animal Welfare I believe we can made small differences right here right now.
I think even people like Yabby and other farmers might agree to assist if we dont appear like fruit cakes of an extreme nature.

After all if we can get them to agree to relax these so called self appointed feed lot laws it would be a help for animals.

pale are asking for is for a little more space to allow animals to move around and behave in a more natural manner.

The term creek fed is from the old school. Its the same as feed lots- sort of. Just a bigger area.

Instead of having animals jamed tight they allowed animals to walk around in a small padock and the farmer would drive around on his tractor twice a day and tip the feed into the bins which were usually just up from the creek.

"I'm sure you can level any number of additional jibes at the rhetoric of your opponents, but I hardly think that will change anything"

TRTL

I do not intend responding to your provocative questionnaire, which is simply to induce a vacuous argument on your part. And my how you relish selectively rebuking Nicky and me, when I recall the very vulgar Col Rouge on one these relevant threads proclaiming he "likes to eat pussy."

You are a spiteful bigot TRTL when you fail to acknowledge the insults from the animal haters on this thread:

"that you two obviously mentally challenged and sexually frustrated hags..."(myopinion.) There are many more.

Remaining in fine hypocritical form, you have also failed to address your own bigoted and snide remarks which you have directed at your "opponents":

"Though you are succeedingly admirably at convincing viewers that you're a hostile angry bigot.

"Nobody who has, would be so damn ignorant.

"And again Scotty - well done on utterly failing to actually present information to back your case. More stupid rhetoric without any supporting material, wrapped up with some wild accusations (again, nothing to support them) as well as the odd cliche. Oh wait, I forgot. You also managed to call on the spirit of 'bogan Australia' to rally behind you. Congrats on that one.

"I really don't see what you're hoping to a... wait a minute... have you considered running for Pauline's United Australia party? I'm sure they'd welcome someone with such a high calibre of debating skill..."

Incidentally I have a reasonably good memory and I recall reading that you advised you are teaching English. I sincerely trust it is not a paid position?

"Fractelle - I suspect we're in agreeance,"

I confess I have more concern for your students (though unknown to me) than you, therefore, before you launch into more of your thunderous condemnations, may I advise you "English" teacher that there is no such word as 'agreeance' in the English language?

Or perhaps only in New Zealand?

My, my, isn't it just amazing how you can get on this forum dickie and criticize other people because they criticized your viewpoints. Sensible criticism is part of a debate, but you and your other half nicky decided to 'play the man' and throw verbal insults at all and sundry. You two are then stunned when you get the same treatment as you gave.

PATHETIC & HYPOCRITICAL!

If you two clowns had kept to the topics of the threads and put forward sensible arguments instead of emotive, over the top statements then none of this probably wouldn't have happened. But you can't help yourself, you read or see something you don't like and then you claim everyone is cruel and doesn't care about animals etc.

You two have one viewpoint; that you are completely right and that if anyone else disagrees in the slightest, then they are wrong. Your style is autocratic, domineering and overbearing and you achieve nothing by being like you are.

Personally I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about me. I know what I'm like and I don't have a problem with it, if you do then that's your problem.

Be rest assured that the continuance of the behavior that you two display will only result in the same treatment being meted out by most forum members.

Before you go saying things about the English language and what is or isn't a word, dickie, why don't you consult the Oxford English Dictionary?

I have, but it's subscription service online so I won't post the link. I'm sure you already know that, right? Ha!

I am in "disagreeance" with you as to the usage of "agreeance."

The dictionary also states that the word "agreeance" was invented in the 1540s and is considered obsolete and a bastardization of 'agreement.'

Therefore, are we both in "agreeance" that you are an idiot?

I see you've used it in a sentence, well done!

Use the dictionary FIRST next time.

PALE, I am (as a single private individual) certainly not going to "run a champagne (sic) about feedlots/creek feeding...

Nicky, we are all private individuals. Please explain your hatred towards fellow animal’s lovers for 2 years Nicky. I put it to you ‘again’ you didn’t come into OLO to debate animal welfare at all. IMOP you came in OLO to rubbish our organization from day one and have never stopped. Why Nicky?
Nicky said
you don't even say where this is or what it's about, for God's sake.
Pale replies
For heavens sake Nicky= AUSTRALIA (and elsewhere for that matter)
I gave you all the details.

Dickie let me ask you as you also have contact with Animals Australia. Are you interested to look at this feed lot accreditation issue and pass the information onto them please?

It’s really quite straight forward. MLA has passed the accreditation powers over to the feed lot owners.
Farmers loose accreditation if they allow animals a larger space to walk around and still feed them grain. This seems unnecessarily cruel. It’s also a healthier environment not only for animals but humans if the animals are not packed in so tight they can hardly move because that is what causes diseases.

AA sit on the advisory boards as Nicky is always pointing out. I should think the feed lot accreditations require URGENT attention.

The question is Dickie are you prepared please to give this information to AA asking them to look at it urgently and address MLA or not please?
I will of course provide you with information. Although I did already post it.
Nicky said
If you hadn't managed to alienate everyone else in the animal advocacy movement you might be able to encourage someone else into helping you out.
Pale comments
Nicky we have never met anybody from AA or PETA. We did invite them many times to meet with ourselves and lawyers also Muslim Leaders to share the Animal welfare MOU.
They refused and black listed us instead.
Our lawyers found that interesting.

Well Dickie, you're doing a pretty good job of proving me right.

I never said there weren't insults coming from the other side of the debate. That's why I made that comment "I'm sure you can level any number of additional jibes at the rhetoric of your opponents, but I hardly think that will change anything."

Essentially, it was an invitation to rise above it. Of course, you haven't answered my question because you know the answer.

Nice to see you're keeping things relevant, too. You can also ask yourself whether it's changed anything.

Never mind then. Though if this was some attempt to convince me that PETA (or supporters of said organisation) isn't what I outlined in the last post, you're still failing.

In regard to each and every comment there, I invite readers to read what I was responding to and make their own judgement. I'll stand by each one.

'Hostile bigot' and 'damn ignorant' was in response to this:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1343&page=33

Immigrants are responsible for: "responsible for plotting to blow up the electricity grid, gang raping white girls, and bashing lifesavers, for starters."

Scotty's post and the one on Pauline's party was here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1101&page=11
After calling immigrant supporters 'leftist pinkos' he said "The

"Kev's and the Davo's of the world will rise.
We will call it Day of the Bogan !"

The pauline question was a genuine one, judging by his immigrant rhetoric.

As for the English terms, I wasn't aware we were being tested, and yes, I'll use slang if I so desire. Though it's fortunate these posts aren't actually submissions, because you'd fail quite spectacularly as well, though I'm struggling to see the relevance of any of these attacks.

Dickie, if after perusing my posts as you clearly have done, the worst aspersion you can cast on my english skills is one instance of using the slang 'agreeance' instead of agreement, then I take it as a compliment. These forums are a place where talk is cheap, and proper grammar and english is very rare.

Whilst perusing my posts, you may also note that while I have indeed stooped to colourful comments regarding posters and their comments, I have never once stooped to seeking out what little personal information I can find on them, and using it in an irrelevant manner to smear them.

It does you no credit.

Nicky, I see your point about the ongoing smears and attacks. I can see that some of myopinions comments are indeed very strongly worded, but those coming from your side of the fence are just as nasty. The difference is, that the comments from yourself and Dickie are seen as being associated with PETA.

Perhaps this is not valid, and yes, that is unfair. But when a public organisation is involved in such disputes, they are expected to maintain a higher decorum and hold the moral high ground, as it were. Though given that neither you nor Dickie have openly identified yourself as PETA spokespeople, I suppose this doesn't necessarily apply. Given the hypothesis at the start of this thread however, the commentary hasn't helped.

And given the very personal attacks being launched, I'd say that they do indeed reflect badly on such imagery. I've seen many ugly comments on OLO, though that's the first time I've copped any direct comments which have clearly been selected on the basis of what little information they indicate about a personal life, which is regrettable, as I now see it's necessary to not even mention such scant personal details on even the vaguest details of ones own profession.

TRTL

Your lecture does not mitigate the fact that you are a hypocrite.

Nor does it mitigate the fact that both you and I resort to the use of ad hominems, though, unlike you, I am not reliant on innuendo.

When you infiltrate an animal welfare site to attack only those who care about the welfare of animals, then you obviously support those who don't.

I have yet to see you express any concern for animals which are being abominably treated in this country. Why are you here? Where are your constructive comments? Nil!

Therefore, one can only assume that you are here to slyly whack PETA. Unfortunately, your gutless posts are devoid of any substantial evidence to justify that whack.

"Though given that neither you nor Dickie have openly identified yourself as PETA spokespeople, I suppose this doesn't necessarily apply."

No it doesn't so why say it and why haven't you "openly identified" yourself?

Furthermore, whether I am "associated with PETA" or not is not your business. Those who object to PETA's work clearly have self-interests.

However, for the benefit of others, I do not donate to PETA nor have I ever made contact with them. Nevertheless, I thoroughly recommend the good work they are doing for defenceless creatures and your snide references about them, reveal your true intentions. Why not just express them?

So while you lounge in your armchair, composing your next post of irrelevant swill, you may like to read of PETA's achievements.

These achievements have been made possible with the dedicated assistance of 200 staff members and the financial support of many thousands of compassionate donors around the world.

These donors can actually witness the results of their investment where these results make very disturbing news for the gluttonous sadists who are charged with exploiting and criminally violating the rights of innocent species.

http://www.peta.org/about/victories_date.asp?selected_year=2008

Therefore, are you with PETA or against them? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. And like paedophilia, cruelty to animals has no grey area.

Hi all

TRTL, I do not resort to personal insults, in spite of being the target of particularly unpleasant personal attacks on various assumed attributes I may or may not have. I will, however, be quite vehement in my criticisms of what is clearly cruelty to animals, and what is blatant hypocrisy and/or untruth. You confuse the two.

Dickie's post containing the link about PETA's achievements is timely, and, for those who bother to look at it, it will clearly show that PETA in fact negotiates for better outcomes for animals and draws public attention to what it, and those who support it, believe is cruelty. Unlike Dickie, I HAVE had contact with PETA staff some time ago, and I found them to be well researched, highly intelligent individuals who were passionate about their cause. There doesn't seem to be too much wrong with any of that. That said, I do not contribute money to them, or any other group, nor am I a member.

PALE, I cannot understand what it is that makes you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is against animals and/or their welfare. In order to take up your feedlot cause, one would require some evidence of what you have claimed (Dickie, please take note). Without it, we have no way of knowing whether it is simply fiction. You provide no location, no legal facts, and no time of the alleged circumstances. Why do you not take the matter up with the Department of Primary Industry in whatever state this has occurred? Why do you not get your RSPCA friends to take it up?

And you still haven't answered any of my questions. You see, you claim to be a reputable animal welfare organization, so you should be prepared to state your credentials as requested. You seem to have inordinate difficulty in doing so. As for your "lawyers" being interested in the "blacklisting" - that says absolutely nothing. Being "interested" translates into - you guessed it - no action at all. The story of PALE's life really. It's all just a web of fantasy.

Nicky

#PALE, I cannot understand what it is that makes you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is against animals and/or their welfare#

pale
Nicky as you well aware pales in conjunction with RSPCA QLD. Also people such as the Humane Society International NSW Muslim groups.

No time did I say anybody was against animal welfare. I said 'You' were against fellow Animal Lovers. I asked you why.

Why post such horrible personal attacks on people who also love animals.

Its counter productive for animals. Counter productive especially for ones you support, such as Animals Australia and the American group PETA.

You have purposely avoided our question which was-

Please explain your hatred towards PALE= fellow animal’s lovers for 2 years Nicky. I put it to you ‘again’ you didn’t come into OLO to debate animal welfare at all. IMOP you came in OLO to rubbish our organization from day one and have never stopped. Why Nicky?

The following comment of yours is another example of your nasty personal attacks at our efforts to help animals.=

#(The story of PALE's life really. It's all just a web of fantasy.#)
pale -
You have zero idea of what our programes involve Nicky. See what I mean your just so nasty and bitchy.
You girls and your web sites. Tell me Nicky do you think having a fancy web site makes a hoot difference? I wish it were that easy.
All fancy web sites are good for is fund raising Nicky nothing much else.
Its behind doors attending meetings with those involved you can make the difference.
In regards answering your questions Nicky I just did. Your extremely rude. Sure our lawyers are interested in the attitudes of PETA and their friends. - Who isnt.
While they say replace live exports for chilled all hell broke loose when people tried to put that into practise.


Is it a concern it might eventually effect fund raising perhaps?

If intensive farms were replaced by free range + live exports to chilled -that would be a huge hole for their fund raisers.

Wouldnt it.?

Hi all

PALE, I have no difficulties at all dealing with genuine animal lovers, nor any problems relating to any other groups including those you mention. It is you who has the difficulty relating to animal lovers. I have simply asked you to prove the credentials of your organization and you continue to fail to do so. Until you do, it is very difficult to regard you as having any credibility. You still refuse to answer my simple questions.

When was your last "closed door meeting" with anyone, for example? Levelling insults and threats at me really does not constitute answers.

Nor is it I who discredits PETA, Animals Australia, Animal Liberation or anyone else, you do that with monotonous regularity with all the rubbish about "blacklisting".

Answer my questions and I'll try to take you seriously. Until then, there is no evidence to suggest that PALE has in fact any current or recent activities at all to do with animal welfare, or associations with anyone who would be instrumental in stopping the live export trade or expanding free-range farming.

Nicky

Nicky
It is you who refuse to disclose your true identity. Apart from which we I have never seen any evidence of you doing 'anything' other than posting on OLO. Is that It?

Had you wanted to know what pale are doing you were in the past along with your buddies invited to contact one of our lawyers to discuss several projects- but You refused claiming you would be of no help. (you were possibly right)
I remind you Nicky even on OLO I personally also invited you to meet with us and Muslim Leaders to discuss Animal Welfare along with RSPCA QLD.
You refused this offer prefering to hide out taking swipes at us.

I think your intentions have been made VERY clear. Your working to help your friends discredit pale IMOP.

We provide our real names and the names of the organisations we work in conjunction with. One which happens to be the RSPCA in our state. I am not about to post here everything we are doing.

I dont see Animals Australia or WSPA or PETA posting their behind door meetings on here- Do you?
'Hilarious' I bet they have had some:) You know you are the fourth person to ask us what we are doing and with whom:) You guys must be desperate.

Let me WSPA in your ear- If its about the discusting actions. PLENTY.'


Do tell us apart from playing lacky and serial trouble maker what on earth do you think you are doing for animals.

One thing we probably shouldnt share with you but will. One of our lawyers spoke with Glenyse re WA case. She promised to email him I was told.
Umm, Weeks ago and still waiting.

The QC is discusted.

Nicky this thread is about PETA. Note how little I have said comparied to what I could have.
Thats because there are many people in PETA that do a lot for animals.
Its just a pity about the odd person IMOP called Ingred.

That seems to follow you veggies about. Perhaps its something in the lettuce, who knows.

Dickie: "When you infiltrate an animal welfare site to attack only those who care about the welfare of animals, then you obviously support those who don't"

Last time I checked, this wasn't an animal welfare site, and this thread was about discussing the methods used by PETA.

Also, you're using a fallacy: "You oppose X therefore you support Y." My beef is not with those who 'care about the welfare of animals' it is the approaches used by a minority of people who care about animals. I have great respect for the RSPCA, and for those in organisations such as PETA who don't resource to underhanded tactics - provided they respect the wishes of those who continue to eat meat. I have seen sufficient examples to believe that many involved with PETA are indeed hostile toward those who consume meat. Like anyone, I would not be pleased to be attacked for a lifestyle choice I do not feel shame for, a lifestyle choice that the vast majority of Australians choose, I might add.

"I have yet to see you express any concern for animals which are being abominably treated in this country."

In another thread, a poster claimed that because there aren't plentiful examples of feminists extolling the virtues of men, they must hate men. I regarded that as illogical, same as this.
I take it as a given that people including myself do not condone needless cruelty, but realise that it happens, and sometimes we have to do unpleasant things for the greater good - for instance, putting down animals. Wherever possible it must be done humanely.

Cont'd.

"Though given that neither you nor Dickie have openly identified yourself as PETA spokespeople, I suppose this doesn't necessarily apply."

I said it, because this thread is about tactics used by PETA and mindset of some (note the 'some') of their supporters.
It highlights the precise attitude you are displaying, and the aggressive responses to criticism. Given the similarity between your commentary and the opening remarks, I think it was a reasonable comment, and I specifically said it doesn't necessarily apply.

I haven't openly identified myself, because what little personal information I put on OLO about my profession was used to smear me in an irrelevant manner. I was quite disgusted by this, more so than the usual rough and tumble, so it's hardly a surprise I do not state more.

"Animal cruelty has no grey area"

It's never good, and I'd never actively support it if there was no reason. But nothing in his world is black and white. Cruelty itself is a grey area. On the extremes of cruelty, of course it's an easy answer - no, never. But some people regard the use of working dogs as cruel, others do not. Some people think riding a horse is cruel, others do not.

Nothing in this world is always as simple as black and white. Nothing.

"Nothing in this world is always as simple as black and white. Nothing."

TRTL. I vigorously disagree with you. Only the predatory human has the ability to convert black and white into grey as a prelude to plundering, pillaging and torturing. Where there's a buck to made, humans set about manufacturing grey areas to conceal immoral and unethical behaviour.

Examples:

1. The US knowingly sprayed Vietnam with a bio-accumulative chemical - Agent Orange - BLACK AND WHITE

Agent Orange has caused hideous deformities and illnesses in the Vietnamese and will do so for generations to come - BLACK AND WHITE

The US, Monsanto, Dow et al has refused compensation to the Vietnamese victims but has begrudgingly compensated some US veterans - GREY

2. The livestock industry between 2000 - 2007 "officially" dumped 414,000 animals overboard. These land animals could not endure the conditions - BLACK AND WHITE

The livestock industry justify this abomination by protesting the majority are not thrown overboard - GREY

3. Former Premier Brian Burke was twice gaoled for defrauding the state of WA - BLACK AND WHITE

Taxpayers picked up the bill - $30 million for the Royal Commission and $600 million for crook deals done behind closed doors, colluding with gluttonous, corporate sponsors. GREY

4. A pig farmer in WA allowed his pigs to swim in their own excrement, standing on top of each other and reduced to cannibalism - BLACK AND WHITE

Despite the graphic footage, the pig farmer continues to operate - GREY

5 AA released footage on the atrocities in the Bassintin abattoirs in Egypt - BLACK AND WHITE

Even Egyptians are alerting the world to Egypt's legalised torture of its animals. Last month, our government announced the resumption of live exports to Egypt - GREY

6 Australia's cattle fraternity incarcerate a cow in a crush, shove shears up its back end to cut off its ovaries - BLACK AND WHITE

The Australian government, which has assured me in writing that "cruelty to animals will not be tolerated" approves this practice - GREY

contd....

Contd......

7. The poster, Dickie, is not a "vegan" - BLACK AND WHITE

Yabby, a live exporter, consistently and fallaciously informs readers on OLO that Dickie is a "vegan" - GREY

"It's never good, and I'd never actively support it if there was no reason"

Ah but you are TRTL because you have manufactured a reason - a "grey" area. Your "grey" area exempts you from a conscience. Why is that humans lack conscience when I have managed to instill one in my animals?

Matthew Scully, was a former executive assistant and chief speechwriter for Bush during his first term. A former literary editor of National Review, he is the author of Dominion: The Power of Man, The Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy (St. Martin's Press), named by The Atlantic Monthly as one of the ten best non-fictions of 2002: He advises:

"In all cases, the law should apply to corporate farmers - a few simple rules that better men would have been observing all along:

"We cannot just take from these creatures, we must give them something in return. We owe them a merciful death, and we owe them a merciful life. And when human beings cannot do something humanely, without degrading both the creatures and ourselves, then we should not do it at all." BLACK AND WHITE

"That seems to follow you veggies about. Perhaps its something in the lettuce, who knows."

Not nice Pale. You know very well that the majority of health warnings on dietary habits are directed at the ramifications of consuming meat. And why not when you realise these often diseased, pitiful critters are mobile chemical farms?

And why not when official figures reveal that last decade there were around 700 tonnes of antibiotics imported into Australia each year?:

35.7% human medicine, 7.6% veterinary medicine (eg mastitis in dairy cows, pneumonia in pigs), 56.6% mixed into stockfeed.

Come now Pale. Why do you think that human lives are threatened by antibiotic resistant bacteria?

"sometimes we have to do unpleasant things for the greater good" Tut tut TRTL - GREY

*Yabby, a live exporter*

I am? Actually I'm a farmer, who started getting into debates about
live exports, after the many ridiculous claims on OLO. One reason
to sell some sheep to shippers, was to find out for myself, what
was truth and what was rubbish. Sorry, but I don't own any boats,
so I am not a live shipper.

The company that I dealt with, were fussy about what they shipped,
professional to deal with and very fussy about dates, so as to stick
to required acclimatisation periods etc. Quite different to all that
I had been told on OLO. The more I dug, the more I found that
what was being promoted by the vegan brigade, was little but
propaganda, about as inaccurate as the mulesing story.

*fallaciously informs readers on OLO that Dickie is a "vegan"*

You quote vegan dogma, you wave the vegan flag, you quote vegan websites
such as Peta, animal liberation etc. You occasionally eat meat on social occasions
and spend the rest of your time quoting the evils of eating meat, the evils of farming
livestock etc for a profit. Perhaps you just don’t have the balls to tell your social
circle, just how radical you really are.

*We cannot just take from these creatures, we must give them something in return.*

That is exactly what good farming is all about. We feed them through droughts,
we treat them for worms, we make sure they don’t die by being ripped to death by
predators or die of starvation, as in nature. We make sure that their nutrition is
correct and that they thrive. That all involves costs and those costs have to be
paid for in the market place. If the marketplace is corrupt, we have to find markets
where their value is reflected, for their benefit, as well as ours.

What is cruel is not black and white. Losing a bit of skin is part of what happens
to every farmer as part of the job. For maternal old ducks like yourself, it’s a major
drama.

Hi all

TRTL, may I ask, when have you communicated with a PETA representative who has expressed hostility towards you? The PETA representatives with whom I have had contact have never expressed "hostility" about anything. PETA has a philosophy about the use of animals, but I have never seen anything on a website or anywhere else where they are "hostile". They advocate for better lives for animals in recognition of the fact that the world will not change to their philosophies overnight. Where they see what they believe is egregious cruelty they will advocate about that. After all, they started out negotiating with the wool industry until Ian McLachlan made such a fool of himself on television.

Do you really think that any alternatives to mulesing would have even been researched or considered without PETA's exposure, and if there are alternative, less brutal ways of controlling flystrike, don't you think that they should be used? What is wrong with campaigning for anaesthesia/analgesia to improve what must be a terribly painful procedure?

They campaign very actively against the fur industry because it's egregiously cruel - particularly in China; there are plenty of organizations besides PETA who provide information about that.

PALE, I'd be very surprised if you did know anything about what I do or don't do for animals, since you know nothing about me. I keep it that way so you can never contact me directly. I said that I didn't want to be part of your project from the outset.

Asking what you do, since you claim to be an active animal welfare organization (as opposed to a private individual who claims nothing) is quite reasonable. It's disappointing that you have no answers to that - no apparent current activities. If I were to ask the other organizations you mention the same questions, I'm sure I would receive a considered response. Assistance from "your QC", if he exists, may not have been required by Glenys, have you thought about that? As for being here to "discredit PALE" you don't need any help from anyone for that.

Nicky

It must be nice living in a simple world, where you don't have to think much about right and wrong, Dickie. Regrettably, finding things 'grey' means I have to think a great deal about what is the right course of action, and no, I don't use it as a justification. It is because I am here considering what I believe to be right and wrong and it is often challenging that I say these things. On the face of it, poisoning wild dogs is wrong. Allowing wild dogs to indiscriminately kill native wildlife is also wrong. So we have a choice. It is indeed, a very 'grey' area.

The full effects of Agent Orange were not known at the time. Of course hindsight makes it a heinous decision. I'd not make the same decision were I in their shoes, but I've no doubt some people at the time honestly believed it was a necessity that would save the lives of some of their troops by deforesting the jungle and making it possible to see enemy troops. I believe it was wrong, of course. Disgusting, repugnant, any negative adjective you care to name. But somebody evidently didn't. I'd at least listen to why they made such a difficult decision before chanting EVIL and throwing stones at them.

Of course, Monsanto is considering what they believe to be best for their thousands of shareholders, and this is how they justify it. I think that's pathetic, yes, and don't condone it. But again, I'd listen before making my final judgement. As it happens, it would be an easy decision to damn them, but yes, I'd listen.

Your picking simplistic morality arguments doesn't detract from the complexity of things like the wild dog issue, nor any of the other points I've raised.

And more importantly, I'd add that it is hardly a persuasive argument that PETA supporters are indeed reasonable people who are willing to make compromises and work with others.
'Black and white' might sound nice and simple, but that attitude can also be interpreted as 'my way or nothing' or 'I'm not listening.'

Again, it's not doing much to dissuade me from the hypotheses put forward in the early sections of this thread.

#not nice Pale. #
Dickie
Your pretty one eyed imo... It was nicer than you buddy’s ‘continued’ nasty swipes at us. I think you too oppose our work. Correct me if I am wrong.

#Come now Pale. Why do you think that human lives are threatened by antibiotic resistant bacteria? #
Dickie I am not going to pretend human lives are my main reason for protesting cruelty to animals. I would be telling a lie. I will leave that to the others.
Personally I pray that the low life’s insisting on cruel methods of intensive in feed lots die in agony of one of the diseases.
Why do you post to us about antibiotics Dickie?

No reason not to allow more creeks fed which also keeps down diseases.
But ask you or your buddy or PETA and the others to help do something about it and they say as usual- Do it yourself pale.

Just a few posts back I raised MLA passing the powers of feed lot accreditations to feed lot owners.
I didn’t hear you showing any interest and your mate carried on like a pork chop.
Then you come on here and post to ‘us’ about diseases! - Then you say Fair Go, We could well say the same to you.

You are aware of our work to promote free range and creek fed only because of the cruelty disease of intensive farming.


You don’t have to tell me about all the diseases bred through intensive farming. Why do you think we are promoting free range and creek fed instead of the intensive feed lots for cattle poultry and pigs? Not to mention reopening plants instead of live exports.


If you truly love animals you will do anything to make what changes you can. Not sit on higher moral ground arguing that animal should not be killed at all for food.
You would support the building of new plants with the latest tech and certainly support our request for help to implement gas into them.

"Sometimes we have to do unpleasant things for the greater good”



“

*until Ian McLachlan made such a fool of himself on television. *

Err Nicky, you mean when Ingrid suggested that she would have her
own meat barbecued when she died? ROFL

*Do you really think that any alternatives to mulesing would have even been researched or considered without PETA's exposure,*

Tens of millions of $ of grower research levies are invested into
all sorts of things, each year. Mulesing alternatives have been
looked at, but are only one of a whole pile of problems. Mulesing
is little different to circumcision of babies and anaesthesia of
babies is not compulsory in Australia. Meantime commercial companies
or animal welfare groups are free to provide alternatives at any time.

*What is wrong with campaigning for anaesthesia/analgesia to improve what must be a terribly painful procedure?*

So why haven't Peta accepted Trisolfen as a way of dealing with
pain? Instead, they prefer to promote solutions which will mean
the suffering of millions of sheep, all in the name of ignorance.

More and more farmers that I talk to agree with me that it is cruel
not to mules merino lambs, as the consequences through their lives will
mean misery for sheep. If they care about their livestock, which
most do, they will tell Peta to get stuffed

I wonder what it is like to have a view of life that is so simple that it can be compartmentalised into black and white.

Peta.org – “Restaurants across the country are tapping into the demand for vegetarian menu items by serving more cruelty-free foods.”

Peta.org – (2) “The next time you're in a restaurant that lacks animal-friendly choices, politely ask the manager if he or she would consider offering vegetarian foods. Be sure to mention why offering pure vegetarian or vegan foods is important: A vegan option is a good way to reach out to health-conscious diners, people with dairy allergies, or anyone with religious dietary restrictions.”

Peta.org – (3) “Cutting meat, eggs, and dairy products from your diet makes an enormous difference—you will save more than 100 animals every year just by switching to a healthy, vegan diet. In this section, we’ll show you how to multiply your impact many times over by encouraging people in your community to follow your lead.”

Peta.org – (4) “Maybe you've recently learned how animals are treated in laboratories or realized that because you wouldn't eat your dog, it doesn't make sense for you to eat a cow or chicken.”

The above statements on Peta’s web site shows very simply that the organization is totally against anything other than a vegan diet. It does not suggest anywhere on their site that one should feel comfortable about eating meat or fish, in fact quite the contrary. What’s wrong with a vegan diet you might ask. Answer is nothing, but it should be a personal decision, not one advocated by using the guise that you are saving a cuddly little animal by becoming a vegan.

This is what separates Peta from an organization that is interested wholly in animal rights. It is really interested in pushing it’s worldwide agenda of a vegan only lifestyle. This is why it is fanatical and an extremist organisation. This is no different to Scientologists believing that everyone in the world should be one of them.

I think we should start a new Peta. People Eating Tasty Animals

"Your picking simplistic morality arguments doesn't detract from the complexity of things like the wild dog issue, nor any of the other points I've raised."

TRTL

I had understood that we had clarified the issue of wild dogs. I have clearly stated that I am not opposed to 1080 providing the poison contains anaesthesia, analgesic or a barbiturate to mitigate the cruelty and pain component. Why do you persist in raising it if this issue has already been clarified?

You continue to manufacture a grey area by your use of the word "morality." Is this a dirty word for you - too "simplistic?" I endeavour to live a life within the bounds of morality. That includes respect for other species.

"The full effects of Agent Orange were not known at the time."

It is disturbing to see you publishing false information TRTL. Again you are masking the black and white evidence by attempting to justify the chemical poisoning of the Vietnamese and the horrendous ongoing health impacts.

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Monsanto-Coverup-Dioxin-USEPA15nov90.htm

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0401/pjg07.html

'Black and white' might sound nice and simple, but that attitude can also be interpreted as 'my way or nothing' or 'I'm not listening.'

That is more spin, TRTL. To the majority of people, black and white means that the issue at hand contains evidence that is overwhelming. It is not an excuse to dictate to others.

If you consider my argument as dictatorial, then that's fine. However, clearly all your arguments on this post have been to defend animal cruelty. Now it appears, in view of your propaganda, that you are also excusing a nation which carried out chemical warfare on another.

I now realise that you are from Mars and I from Venus. I shall not engage in further debate. I apologise for my rudeness in my previous posts - driven by a passion for defencelss creatures and an abhorrence of the industry which perpetrates unimaginable cruelty on those creatures. However, I am not so passionate that I am unable to reflect on my own poor behaviour.

So we can save animals by not eating them? Are you joking? Black-n-white synonyms: childish, irrational, illogical, delusional, pedantic, immature, diatribe, authoritarian.

I envisage cattle wandering the streets of Sydney just as in Calcutta. But wait, we would have sheep, pigs, geese, chooks, pheasants et al. Now that would cement our status as a tourist destination. Perhaps we could start a new work for the dole position. Herding and caring for the worthless, homeless and sacred domesticated livestock. Moving them from busy intersections and the like.

I won't shock Dick-n-Nick with what fate would await them should they wander outside the city limits.

Our population of domesticated livestock would plummet because they would have NO ECONOMICAL VALUE. When animals have no economical value they become endangered and then extinct. Many, many domesticated breeds are now endangered.

Proof? Compare the numbers of the shaggy coated long horned Scottish cattle with Black Angus. I have it on good authority that it is commercially counter-productive to run any other breeds in the USA as the market currently demands Angus.

When the farmed Deer market collapsed many Deer farmers simply opened the gates and left them open. So now they can die slow painful deaths from such conditions as abscessed gums (impacted seeds)

An illogical and delusional position promulgated by adherence to a fanatical concept.

Can't believe I am doing this as I have to much real work to do.

Seal response still on the back burner.

Defenceless animals! Aaargghhh.

Dangerous dog legislation.

The Dingo Ate My Baby. (The Dicks-n-Nicks of the world helped gaol an innocent husband and wife and destroy a family unit)

Try doing the tango with an irate Red Kangaroo.

Foxes ripping lambs apart. Defenceless? Please.

Deliver hand bills for extra money and you will find out about defenceless neighbourhood dogs.

Lions
Tigers
African Water Buffalo
Taipan snakes

Good Grief.

Hi all

Dickie, I don't think this thread is worth persevering with any longer. Beyond making the point that we (animal advocates generally, for PALE's benefit before I am accused of any number of evil affiliations) are in fact advocating - no, insisting - that analgesia must be used on mulesed lambs until the phaseout of the procedure in 2010, there seems little left to say. We have both clarified our individual positions on 1080, and met with the usual rubbish. Let's leave these people to argue amongst themselves. I for one have better things to do than try and make these people understand fundamental morality.

Nicky
PS What terrible things did you say about antibiotics and feedlots?

Wait there is more. Let’s look at the cuddly, warm, feel good Peta movement. The organisation that some try and publicly deny that it doesn’t have a separate agenda from animal rights.

co•er•cion – noun
1. the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.

This is a word that describes Peta to a tee. They have been proven to supply donations to a group that uses violence in demonstrations and their web sites use intimidation to coerce people to become like them and follow their lifestyle. Informing people that a vegan lifestyle might benefit them and allowing them to make a personal choice to either ignore that information or take it on board, is one thing. Trying to make people feel guilty by telling them that by eating any animal or fish is murder, is quite simply coercion and intimidation, and something completely different again.

The link below is very interesting and shows Peta and its supporters for what they are.

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/downloads/reference/docs/040817_petakids.pdf

Nicky – “I don't think this thread is worth persevering with any longer.”

Neither do I because you have had very little to say that has been sensible or logical. Logical – now there is a word that you and dickie should look up in the dictionary.

Nicky – “Let's leave these people to argue amongst themselves.”

Once again you are horribly confused and addled. The only supporter that you have had is cuphandle. In case you haven’t realised everyone is arguing AGAINST YOU and dickie. We haven’t been arguing amongst ourselves but against you two. DUH!

Nicky - “I for one have better things to do than try and make these people understand fundamental morality.”

Good idea, you wander off and watch the door doesn’t hit you in the arse on the way out. Of course you and dickie are the only ones who understand morality, because you said so, and what you say is gospel. Cheerio.

Thanks for the website MyOpinion

it will be useful

What could we argue about?

Very little I would think.

Hi Nicky

A splendid idea. Why should we engage in dialogue with vain men who boast of their pleasures, tormenting and inflicting pain on timid animals?

And always I am reminded of Chief Seattle's speech to US President Pierce in 1855:

"The whites too shall pass -- Perhaps sooner than other tribes. Continue to contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.

"When the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild deer slain, the secret corners of the forest heavy with the scent of many men, and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires.

"Where is the eagle? Gone.
Where is the caribou? Gone.
And what is it to say goodbye to the end of living and the beginning of survival?"

Good night Nicky and may the Karmic force be with you.

These two uni lovers think they are doing the right thing for animals.

They honestly do. This imop is because of the lack of leadership over a very long time. I can assure you the attitudes of these well intended people are muliplied in the thousands.

They dont know any different because they are animal lovers clearly but they are not leaders . I have always said you girls are brain washed. I dont say that to be horrible but because I mean it.

If you try to give them something to look at which is not on the web sites to lobby they all take it as a huge insult.

A example of that can be seen when pale raised MLA giving feed lot owners over accreditations.

Yabby what is your honest opinion of that please? Why should a farmer loose his feed lot accreditation for grain fed if hes feeding grain but simply giving the stock some more space to move around?

Dickie

Listen just before you head for the hills you didnt answer our questions.

These questions had nothing to do with fighting and argueing they were simply about the animals.

I asked you to be honest Dickie and state if you opposed pales efforts to re open abattoirs. It was a simple question and we would appreciate an answer.

Its fair enough if you reply by saying -look pale I am against it because I cant stand the thought of killing animals etc.

I am not going to bite your head off or jump down your throat

(Sorry - posted this in the wrong thread)

To anybody interested. This is not information Nicky or Dickie would know about or be involved in.

Its just general info about what’s happening in Animal Welfare.

Pale stands alone in its work to reopen abattoirs in Australia to phase out live animal exports.
We are disliked because of this work. We looked at the 20 year history and wanted to help RSPCA and Animals Australia.

We wanted to establish a way in which animal welfare could be improved and each branch of RSPCA and also Animals Australia could be given large donations to support their work.

What we were not expecting TBO was the aggressive behavior towards people with such good intentions only wishing to help animals and these organizations.

Ingrid of PETA and Glenyse of Animals Australia have been very anti pale this anti pale is run from the top. What we want to know is WHY?

WSPA Voiceless Animals Australia ALL wrote to pale telling them they didn’t qualify to be members of each of their organizations and claiming our involvement in reopening abattoirs as the reason.

They had 'twenty years' before us to do something. Voiceless are new and could do a lot imop but need better advice.



The others are so nasty. We just don’t understand it. Horrible emails and phone calls to members. Kids being told they cant attend a rally after cutting out their little signs and mum making their costumes.

You might ask WHY these kids were made so unwelcome and their parents. "
“Because they were members of pale of course- the animal killers etc.”

What a horrible lot the animal welfare people are.
So we intend to change things.

Now others want the credit for our working with Muslim, Leaders. What a bunch of hypocrites after refusing our generous invitations and bagging us for our work...
Bugger what they stuff up on the way. Disgusting especially as they know nothing about plants and stock.

This behavior is holding up work to help animals.

That is ALL we are interested in-

"The Animals"

PALE&IF: << What we want to know is WHY? >>

If PALE&IF's antics on this forum resemble in any way their approach to communication and liaison with other animal welfare groups in the real world, then it's hardly surprising that other groups don't want anything to do with them.

We've all seen the litany of barely coherent, rambling and abusive diatribes on OLO from this outfit. It's not as if they haven't been told, but they continue to alienate virtually everybody, including their natural allies.

I think PALE&IF probably does more harm overall to the welfare of animals than good - there are many of us who oppose live exports, but wouldn't go near such an amateurish and vindictive mob with a barge pole.

Morgan

You have zero knowledge of our work. Its a matter of record you also have zero interest in Animal Welfare . We work with RSPCA QLD and farmers and Muslim Leaders of Australia= instead of against them.
I am sure thats very hard to follow for you.

Your late appearance in this thread is only for the purpose of being nasty. You carry a grudge.

You are very crude in your comments and that is also a matter or of record as well. As I told you on the other thread Morgan "I refuse to exchange comments with crude men."

Getting back to Animal Welfare you have shown no interest in it one way or the other.
However perhaps this is your chance to inform people which you prefer.

A Working together with farmers and Muslim leaders to reopen the abattoirs slaughtering in Australia to value add and to stop long haulage of animals
OR
B PETA and the others idea of having people rolling around the streets naked with prentend blood on them protesting people eating meat.

Morgan you have time and time again posted pale are racist. Thats despite us being the only outside people to hold a MOU with Muslim Leaders of this country. We have built close friendships as well over the years.

I am just wondering if you not actually a wardobe member of PETA TBO.

While I'm not surprised that PALE&IF didn't like my answer to their question, their reply illustrates what I was getting at. On the basis of their activities here and their woeful websites, who would give them the time of day?

CJ Morgan wonders why PETA is so unwilling to mix with PALE.

As an outsider I could suggest a couple of reasons.

PETA wants to be the peak organisation.

They can not countenance pretenders to the throne. They are the penultimate organisation for card carrying control freaks.

As such they can continue to empire build. More donations. More middle level managers. Enhanced career paths. Bigger offices. Paid vacations. Company cars. Superannuation. The more extreme they are the more free publicity the media whores give them. So then more money rolls in from the battalions of the easily led self righteous types.

Because CJ Morgan; PETA is primarily about self interest and money laundering instead of working for those defenceless, sentient animals. PETA is merely a vehicle to achieve the goal of self deification.

Your organisation is a threat to their superiority complex.

Creating a cause as a career move is much less problematic than marketing a new fast food or a creative product. Less competition after all.

I read this on the net and thought I would post it here as it sums Peta up nicely. This is the comment in its entirety.

“Let's get something out of the way: No one supports cruelty to animals. No-one. Animals should be treated in as humane a fashion as possible, and some of the things done to animals in slaughterhouses and testing labs are abhorrent.

That said, PETA is a ridiculous organization that deserves exactly 0 support from any sane person. They hide behind the little social work they do with animals to mask a ridiculous, extremist agenda. They've written checks to convicted firebombers to come to their conferences and tell people that tossing jugs full of oil and gasoline "is a great way to fight for animal rights."

At a time when mass farming feeds millions, they want everyone to abandon this practice. They're even against companion animals and seeing-eye dogs. They're against using animals in research for cures to critical diseases.

PETA has created a dichotomy where you are either on their side, equating human and animal rights as totally equal or you are part of the inhumane animal torturers. It's absurd. Cute chick mascots encouraging people to "Go Veg!" may fool a few people who aren't looking any deeper, but make no mistake; PETA is not an animal rights champion. PETA is a group of ridiculous whack jobs who cover their extremism with a smokescreen of cute puppies.

The fact that they won't denounce ALF fire bombers should tell you everything you need to know about them.”

Hi all

I know I said I was leaving this thread, but there's some stuff I couldn't resist. CJ Morgan, you are absolutely right; from what I can gather, PALE's way of "promoting animal welfare" has got them off-side with every other group in the country, and overseas ones as well. It isn't surprising that you know nothing of their work - they won't answer any questions about it beyond alluding vaguely to MoUs with Muslim leaders and working with RSPCA Queensland. What they have done in any material sense seems rather obscure. But once again we have the plaintive cry that they want to know why Animals Australia, along with everyone else, won't work with them. They KNOW why, and it has, I suspect, little to do with their "project/s" and everything to do with how they treat anyone who disagrees with them, as we have seen so often on this forum. It's a kind of "if you can't beat them, beat them to death" mentality, whereby you abuse and insult everyone in the hope that someone will listen to you one day.

Cowboy Joe, I would regard PETA as pretty much the penultimate animal advocacy organization, and certainly the most successful. But, as with any animal protection group, people who are not cruel to animals have nothing to fear from them. Not a difficult concept really. And trust me - PALE is absolutely no threat to PETA, or any other animal advocacy group.

Nicky

This is the group that the likes of dickie and nicky support.

Some quotes from Peta.

“ Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we’d be against it.”
— PETA president Ingrid Newkirk

“ To give a child animal products is a form of child abuse.”
— Neal Barnard, PETA medical advisor and former president of the PETA Foundation

“ We’re at war, and we’ll do what we need to win.”
— PETA vice president Dan Matthews

“ I find it small wonder that the laboratories aren’t all burning to the ground. If I had
more guts, I’d light a match.”
— PETA president Ingrid Newkirk

“ When you see the loss of 9 billion [animal] lives each year, it’s inappropriate to hold a sign or pass out a petition. It’s appropriate to go out and burn down the ... farm."
— Joshua Harper, convicted domestic terrorist and a recipient of $5,000 from PETA in 2001

‘Young activists should “not be afraid to condone arsons.”
----PETA “humane education lecturer” Gary Yourofsky

“ Everything we do is based at adults.”
— PETA president Ingrid Newkirk denies targeting children on CNN, (March 21, 2002)

“We are after the kids who are looking and searching for something.”
— “PETA Kids” coordinator Marci Hansen, (June 22, 2003)

“Our campaigns are always geared towards children and they always will be.”
— PETA vice president Dan Matthews, Fox News Channel (December 19, 2003)

READ THE ABOVE THREE QUOTES: WHOSE LYING?

In the words of its founding president Ingrid Newkirk, PETA’s goal is “total animal liberation.”

In addition to spelling the end of meat and dairy foods, this extremist organization has vowed to eliminate animals from zoos, aquariums, circuses, and rodeos. Its activists campaign aggressively to ban fishing, fur, leather, wool, pet ownership, and biology-class dissection in schools. And PETA opposes all medical research on animals (including lab rats)—even to cure diseases like AIDS and cancer.
Some of PETA’s attempts to draw children into vegetarianism are irresponsibly misleading —such as its claims that non-vegetarians are more susceptible to illness.

Peta are clearly a vegan cult, as fanatical as many religious cults.

As we can see from Nicky-Dickie, their followers can be just as
irrational and fanatical, as followers of other religious cults.

Thats why I call them the vegan Taliban.

Sorry to intrude again - apologies for responding to PALE&IF'S silly question earlier. Put it down to frustration, in a sense. As it happens I live in a small country town and conduct a business whose fortunes are directly linked to the export of halal mutton and goat. I've read this crap from PALE&IF for some years now - mostly I bite my digital tongue (so to speak) but occasionally I have to say something.

Mind you, another reason I generally steer clear of the animal welfare debates at OLO is that they usually degenerate into interminable shitfights between the usual suspects - much as I tend to involve myself in when it comes to more sociological and political topics, of course ;)

As far as PETA goes, I think they're a bunch of radical ratbags who have had actual success in getting sheep farmers to look seriously at less cruel ways of managing their livestock. Sometimes we need radical ratbags.

In my opinion, radical ratbags like PETA can be a force for good, in that they have measurable if modest positive effects on animal husbandry. One doesn't have to be a vegan socialist lesbian to appreciate that.

On the other hand, fringe groups like PALE&IF seem to achieve very little other than to occupy the waking hours of a handful of self-obsessed windbags. Little wonder the serious players don't want to know about them.

Hi all

CJ Morgan, thanks for that (I think). PETA does do some radical stuff - I guess their fur campaign is probably the strongest I've seen. But I do believe that supporting the fur industry is wrong because the methods used on these animals (over 90% of the world's fur comes from China, arguably one of the most cruel countries on earth) are egregiously cruel. And it isn't only PETA who have exposed that; other organizations have gone in and exposed it along with the dog and cat meat trade - again egregiously cruel.

There was a doco on not so long ago on the Chinese and Korean dog meat trade. They were quite open about hanging dogs and beating them to death for the adrenalin, one butcher saying that he favoured electrocution (through the dog's anus). Australia exports Greyhounds to Korea and Macau.

Australia has banned the importation of dog and cat fur, but because there are no truth in labelling laws in China, the only way to find out what sort of fur it is on imported Chinese clothing and souvenirs is by DNA testing. They call it things like Arctic Fox and the like. It really isn't any secret that countless animals are skinned while they are alive and conscious.

They also exposed the Indian cattle slaughter "marches" - where cattle are made to walk hundreds of miles to be slaughtered and when they collapse, pepper and tobacco are rubbed into their eyes to make them get up, or their tails are broken bit by bit (so much for cattle being sacred!).

If opposing things like these makes us ratbags, then I'll line up with the ratbags every time.

I'm not a member of any group, nor do I donate funds to one. But if I were going to be, it would not be PALE, for all the reasons you state here.

Nicky