Hara.. as long as you regard the role of a women in the home as 'domestic slavery' you will be such a joy to be married to :)

And of course your children will learn such wonderful attitudes.

Specially when ur not around, out there fulfilling YOUR desires for YOU, and making as much MONEY as YOU can make, for YOU...

I guess if the kids are lucky, they might scrounge around for a tidbit like a new gameboy to occupy them.. but a mother who nurtures and cares, and gives unlimited love, fills them with self esteem, and gives them a sense of self importance and significance....a sense of worth as human beings.... aaah..nope.. PROFIT.. $$$ comes first does it not?
"MY" fulfillment doing "MY" career.. for "MY" sense of PERSONAL fulfilment.

God forbid that the offspring gain an inkling of their true worth (or lack thereof) in your home.. an inconvenience and impediment to YOUR career path...

It boggles the mind just how screwed up, selfish, and distorted our values have become regarding family.

BD you can create a happy, confident and independent child without being a full-time parent. Or are you devaluing the role of fathers? We tend to look back to what is remembered as the "idyllic" 50's and 60's when we discuss the roles of parents, and its during that era that most mothers didnt work, modern appliances started to make domestic life easier (ie not full time work), and the size of families started to fall. Before that, large numbers of children and a hevy domestic workload meant that mothers spent little time with individual children anyway - modern childcare is far more likely to ensure that children get individual care and development than they would have got at home prior to the 50's. Anyway, I believe that you can give a child too much of your time, thereby creating a spoilt little so and so that thinks they are the centre of the universe. There is a fine line, and the position of that line will vary between individual families and individual children. There is no one-size-fits-all.

Thanks to the women who have fought and argued on our behalf, yes, we ARE more than domestic slaves and birthing machines.

Try being a woman in Yemen: http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2278332,00.html

Puts things into perspective.

Vanilla,

I think a lot of men also helped along the status and rights of women in the west. Possibly the type of men, who unlike a lot of feminists, don't see the other gender as the enemy. But if you're talking about posters on this topic, I didn't argue on your behalf as I thought the whole topic ridiculous, and the phrase 'domestic slaves and birthing machines' inflamatory, and didn't know who Haralambos attributes this opinion to? I mean , is he arguing with himself, or who is the supporter/instigator of the proposition he is angrily opposing? I don't see any domestic slaves or birthing machines in our community.

It's nice to know feminism has come so far in the west that feminists are now left with whining by transference and appropriating the hardships of poor people, or constantly dragging up injustices from 'not so long ago' to keep alive the anger within. I agree with Col and Maggie. In this society, The battle for women's rights has been largely won. Pretty convicing coming from the mouth of a female prime minister.

I think it is terrible about those women in Yemen, but that's why it's even worse when people like Haralambos pretend women in the west suffer any remotely similar fate.

I also suggest, as always, that looking outside in at a culture from a different cultural perspective, we can never truley understand the powers within. I remember talking in Cairo with a guy who said that women really hold all the cards in marriage because he cannot afford another Bride Price for another wife, and would be left with no woman if his wife left him.

Hey I don't understand these other cultures, and yes they aren't my cup of tea, but you get all these people wanting to pick and choose the bits of other cultures to allow and deny based on our own cultures values. I wonder how we'd react to that scrutiny in reverse.

Golly Vanilla...

I read that Yemen article.. and yet you criticize me for criticising the reasons behind that state of affairs?

The mind truly boggles.

This is 'our' version "Husbands..love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her"...

"Love your wives as your own bodies".....etc

I just don't see anything like that at all in Yemen or any other place with the same 'texture'.

Does it not astound you that women of that faith 'proudly proclaim how they are liberated' in such attire? I think they do that simply to be in our faces when we point out such things as that article.

Usual suspect: "...But if you're talking about posters on this topic, I didn't argue on your behalf as I thought the whole topic ridiculous..."

Um, okay. I disagreed with the OP and thought I'd post so. Much as I appreciate the sentiment, you've written this like I might expect you to argue on my behalf, which leaves me slightly confused, as I don't.

"whining by transference and appropriating the hardships of poor people"

Exsqueeze me? Are you suggesting *moi* was indulging in a spot of cultural appropriation by bringing up Yemen? (I'm assuming the "whining" part wasn't directed at me because I just can't see how you could have got that out of what I posted.) If so, can you explain yourself a bit more? The article itself isn't whiny, and the journalist is upfront about her western sensibilites — at least I read it that way.

My intent was to say:
1. I disagree with Haralambos's proposition.
2. I regard it as rather insulting to those who fought for our right to vote, study, work, love, etc, etc to suggest that we are still at square one. (At the same time, I freely admit it's not yet a perfect world.)
3. We should count ourselves lucky. In Yemen, life sucks — particularly for women.

I consider the last point neither trite nor some kind of Western apologia. I lived in a developing nation for several years and I understand how the cultural gaze works, and I'm cool with saying what I think about other cultures. (And when I was an expat I loved hearing what other cultures thought of us.) To me, the situation in Yemen is not even a feminist issue, it's a human rights issue.

The Thatch was never a great one for human rights, so if she's your role model, then perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

Boazy, I think we beat rampant religiousity with rationalism, empathy, tolerance and fairness. As far as I'm concerned, you're on their side.