Made a little mistake

Final point in first post should read:

"• That government assists as employers who pay parental leave leads to discrimination against women and parents in the workforce."

:-D

Fractelle “Col, a single tree does not a forest make.”

I realise you have affinity with vegetation Fractelle but the world is a wondrous place.

It is not all forests and trees for you to hug. There are vast open spaces (you might be familiar with them too (spaced out), oceans, rolling hills, cities.

Whilst it is true that a single tree does not a forest make,

I have never seen a forest made out of anything other than individual trees, some like great oaks, some willows, birch, red and blue gum, finer trees too living between the colossus of the forest.

Now if you want a good forest, you are better off accepting the diversity of the trees and stop demanding that only one type is allowed to grow and only to a precise height.

What you fail to understand Fractelle is

Strength is achieved through diversity, not through uniformity,

All you preach is the belief that we should only be allowed to be equal.

Where the Oak and Yew are constrained, as if with bonsai and forbidden to grow beyond the height prescribed by the socialist levellers.

Diversity produces people of different heights, different abilities and different attributes too.

I will always fight for diversity against the interests of those who demand, like Fractelle, the socialist levellers uniformity which has only ever produced a sick and dying society.

“Not the slightest bit interested in giving ALL”

Actually, I have to pay a tax bill due under one of my 2006/07 returns, even with a couple of companies, one running at a loss at present, I still do my bit and ensure I am “giving ALL” my duly assessed taxes.

A net taxpayer has dignity, a net tax beneficiary is at the mercy of the state.

As for hybrids, the extra energy required to produce the additional machine engineered components consume massive amounts of energy at the factory end of the production process.

The hybrids are sold as a fashion statement, they are not economically competitive but give the appearance that car companies are doing something

Col Rouge
"Diversity produces people of different heights, different abilities and different attributes too" There is an thread about racial diversity, go and tell them for the benefits of any diversity.
No one said that individuals do not exist, no one says that any society exists from ghosts and not from real, individual persons.
What I try to tell you is that humans are social persons, they live in societies, they produce, create in societies, HUMAN KIND DID WHAT IT DID BECAUSE HUMANS ARE SOCIAL PERSONS, NOT SIMPLE INDIVIDUALS. When we support the women and children with paid maternity, paternity, paternal leave simultaneously we support, benefit our society.The benefits from the PML spread direct to their close environment, family members of the women and children or indirect to our society with various ways as more productivity for employers, healthier children, happier parents, more successful children, more understanding, more democracy more love for the country etc. All these and much more benefit not only the society as a whole but less or more each individual of the society. YOU GRANT CHILDREN WILL LIVE IN A BETTER ENVIRONMENT, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU AS INDIVIDUAL GRANDFATHER!
Is it so difficult to understand that the activities, behavior, needs, ideas, etc from any individual effects, less or more, good or bad other individuals?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios,
No I’m not from your area, I live in Sydney.
As you know, I agree with you on most things but I don’t think that the baby bonus is a good idea. A big lump sum encourages teenagers to have babies before they’ve had an education or been in the workforce. Here, I’d rather agree with Col that a coupon/voucher system, if necessary, would be a better provision for the child. We need mothers back into the work force; we don’t need to invite adolescents to go on welfare.
Col,
I get your point about marriage but I am not trying to say that the incomes of a couple should be separated into different accounts. In fact, my husband and I have had a joint account ever since we moved in together before we even got married. We share everything, a business and investments, too.
I’m trying to say that a family’s income does not rely on one partner’s contribution only, both contributions are equally important.
Your freedom argument is a strong one, I struggle with that myself as I think that socialism is not the answer (I’d hate to be an ant), but neither is capitalism. Both infringe on the freedom of people, they just target different groups.
All I know is that we need a caring and more efficient, smaller government, caring people and a fair go for everyone, including parents and especially basic needs for all children.
As you said so yourself, you are not against using govt incentives. While LPG is a good idea, so is paid maternity leave.

Pericles,
I agree with what you are saying about deceit and democracy and if I had to cherry pick one argument against PML it would be that one.
Still, I wouldn’t want to see some kind of example made of PML in an attempt to save the face of democracy- there are more things that move in by stealth.
The WTO is hardly open or democratic in nature, either.

Continued.

Pericles, you said, “The reason they don't do this is because they know how the Australian public will respond.”
But, on 20 May 2008, Antonios provided the following article:
http://tinyurl.com/55olkp
“James Heckman's analysis (2006) demonstrates the economic dividends of early quality parental care (including through measures like paid maternity leave) that result in long term savings for governments “
And,
”A representative news poll … shows a high level of support for PML …”
If Heckman is correct about long-term savings, then it’s reasonable to believe that the public would be in favour of PML.

Also, if paid maternity leave is such a bad idea that wouldn’t fit in with the Australian tax system, then why have the HREOC, the ACTU and the Australian Industry Group all called for taxpayer-funded paid maternity leave? They all agree that paid maternity leave is not only vital for working families but also for our economy.
http://www.hreoc.gov.au/about/media/media_releases/2008/38_08.html

Fractelle,
Welcome to this lengthy debate and thanks for outlining the benefits of parental leave.
I agree, paid maternity/parental leave, which is the recognition of equality of both parents is not luxury. Motherhood reflects on superannuation and income while fatherhood does not.
I don’t know whether you’ve read all of the posts, but Antonios said in a previous post, ”paid maternity leave is not a bonus, it is about a right to paid leave for working mothers recovering from childbirth to help establish breastfeeding and for all-important bonding to occur.” I agree.

” Both government and potential parents could contribute to a Maternity Benefit Fund”
Yes, not a bad idea and worthy of consideration. If you read my post of 27 May, I have written something similar there which may interest you.

Celivia,

>>A representative news poll … shows a high level of support for PML<<

with the greatest respect, when "a stratified random sample of 1202 respondents aged 18 years and over" are asked a survey question, they are not being asked to vote for it, just offer their opinion.

Take a look at the way the questions were phrased. Every one of them was shaped towards a warm-and-fuzzy response:

"In principle, are you personally in favour or against all working women in Australia having access to some type of paid maternity leave?"

A warm-and fuzzy response, incidentally, that costs the respondent precisely nothing. Even the "who pays" question was a no-brainer:

"..tell me if you personally would be in favour or against this way of funding a paid maternity leave scheme

* It being funded by all Australian employers
* It being funded by all Australian workers
* Funding being shared between Australian employers and workers
* Funding being shared between Australian employers, workers, and the Federal government"

Of course the majority will answer the last. It involves the least amount of brainpower, and sounds "fair".

When (or if, in this case) you have to offer the position to the public as an election platform, you would be obliged to explain who pays, and how much.

Mr Rudd fudged the question beautifully during the election campaign, providing the perfect bureaucrat position:

"If elected I will ask the Productivity Commission to examine the effectiveness of different models to improve support for parents in the labour force with new born children"

Exquisite. No commitment, no responsibility, no costings, no transparency. Hand it to "the committee", and then claim that "well, you voted for it."