Dear friends, and fellow posters.
We have been hearing a lot about Obama's connection to "Rev" Jeremiah Wright and the latters rather radical ideas.
In order to posture himself as a "person for all", Obama has been distancing himself from Wright.

On Hannity and Colmes recently, Sean Hannity interviewed Wright, and was told "Have you read the books of James H Cone? If not, you cannot understand me"

So this leads to Cone.

http://www.answers.com/topic/james-cone

<<The first major attempt to integrate Black Power with theology was James Cone's book Black Theology and Black Power (1969). Here Cone developed the thesis that Black Power is "Christ's central message to twentieth century America," that Black Power means "complete emancipation of Black people from white oppression by whatever means Black people deem necessary,">>

Keeping in mind that this book on BlackPower and Theology was written in 1969, it's surprising to see just how volatile are his statements.

One major problem is his focus on 'color' and his connection of this to Theology.

For some insights and a passionate expose of the content of the BlackPower/Black Theology movement, please have a listen to this talk from Dr James White (interestingly ironic name) and see how Cone manipulates both the scriptures and philosophy in extremely racist terms.

http://www.aomin.org/podcasts/20080506fta.mp3

The point of bringing this for our discussion is that it shows how any 'liberation' movement contains a dominance theme rather than an equality theme.
Cone combats 'white' racism, with vehement 'black' racism. Rather than calling for 'justice and equality for all' he does more. He sees those values in 'Black' terms.... i.e.. racist terms.

As I try to emphathise with these thoughts and place myself in the shoes of a black person in the USA in the late 60s, I can see the legitimacy of the complaint in social terms, but cannot justify a solution in 'racial' terms, which is couched in violent and racist revolutionary rhetoric.
Does this have relevance for Australia's race relations?
If so... how?

Dear David,

You've lost me in this thread. I don't understand the point that you're trying to make here. What does Senator Barack Obama have to do with the Black Power movements of the 1960s?

And why are you connecting the Senator to his former pastor, Wright?

Wright's expressed views are entirely his own, and as Senator Obama has explained, they are not opinions he shares.

So what's your point?

Hi Foxy.. don't worry :) this is not a 'get Obama' by association thread.. if not clear in the first post it would become so as it develops.

Obama is just the 'current affairs hook'.. i.e.. the media has made much of his connection with Wright, who bases his own teaching on Cone... personally, I don't see it as being anything other than a 'right wing plot' (some of our lefties should love that)

Some glimpses of Cone and Wright here.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-1X5sZ6Q4Fw&feature=related
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JEMZHQsQJ6Y&feature=related

No..my point..is found in the last 2 lines of my first opening post.

Once we examine the teaching of Cone, it may be instructive about how racist liberation movements generally behave. This has significance for us. Having seen Gary Foley rant like an Adolph Hitler on speed at an IR rally...I feel it is in all our interests, indigenous and white to manage our reconciliation very carefully and monitor any hint of 'Cone-ism'

Unless one listens to the talk by Dr James 'White' :) you won't get the point there.. also, there is a good summary of Cone's beliefs in 'Answers.com' which fleshes out his meaning of 'black' and 'white'..and sounds a lot better than Dr White pitches it.

http://www.answers.com/topic/james-cone

(understandable, as Dr White was reading the book selectively to gain Cone's essential points)

I agree with David here Foxy.Obama is equally white as he is black.Genetically he is 50% white.Michael Mansel who lives in Tassy Australia is about 90% white ,yet insists he is black to gain advantage.

Obama is using his perceived underclass as leverage to gain power.He is not going to Govern for all Americans.Obama will be the deathnel for the Democrats.His past statements will get McCain over the line.

I agree totally with DAVID BOAZ! gee that hurt, no it did not truth can not be avoided, while Fox news is no recommendation.
Racism is always wrong but not just a white thing Obama however given a chance could be the best thing to happen to America.
His task is going to beat him in my view I still hope I am very wrong, have we considered the impacts of a Republican win?

Nothing to say, the cartoon below sums up this discussion thread perfectly.

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/nq/2008/nq080512.gif

No Fractelle.. I think you are suffering from 'superficiality' syndrome :)

seems like you think I'm having a go at Obama ? read my 2nd post please.

This is not about Obama at all...its about 'understanding the Black Power' movement (which of course may just as well be a 'White' power movement.

I'm exploring the morphing from 'liberation' to 'domination' that usually occurs in such social phenomena.. it happens in feminism, Socialism and on the 'Right' as well.

Understanding this social phenomena, will equip us better to anticipate future directions in Australia of ANY seditious movement, or..one which challenges the status quo in the name of some kind of victimhood.

Belly get's it.. I'm surprised you don't.

“The point of bringing this for our discussion is that it shows how any 'liberation' movement contains a dominance theme rather than an equality theme.”

Sounds like socialism to me, the dominance of the indolent and incompetent “levelling” out, through tax and nationalisation, the rewards acquired by the energetic and able.

Whilst I denounce the racism and elitism of the past with school segregation, reserve jobs, purchase rights based on race (like buying houses in a particular area), I equally denounce the inverted racism inseparable from affirmative action.

We remain best served by a system which encourages the individual excellence from which we all benefit, rather than pursuing policies which stunt the potential of the able, in the name of equality.

As dearest Margaret said “Let our children grow tall, and some taller than others if they have it in them to do so.”

And she did not qualify that statement to any particular race.

Personally, my gut tells me McCain, I do not believe the US electorate are ready for an Obama. They might be ready for a Colin Powell or maybe a Hilary Clinton but Obama is travelling with too many secrets.

However, I could be wrong and since, ultimately, I do not get to vote, my opinion don’t count for much. But to guess the winning horse in a race does not mandate we should have a bet on it.

Hi Col..... nope..not on about socialism here. Just a kind of *warning*
about ANY group which is claiming 'victimhood' which they then turn into a plea for more funding, more privilege, affirmative action, which all taken together equal "stronger strategic position".. and from 'that' we would see the 'inner core' become increasingly evident, as the layers of propoganda and misinformation, and 'happy friendly warm' public face it replaced by the tyranical, dictatorial, death camp mentality.
The public face of such movements will make liberal use of congratulatory and 'warm fuzzy' interaction to win over the easily influenced and gullible.

This could happen in a migrant group, indigenous group, religious group (including 'Christian')

"eternal vigilance" is the price of freedom.

Obama... as I said.. not really about him, but.. I tend to agree a bit.. my gut feeling is that Obama wins the 'populist' vote, in spite of his 'secrets'.. Hillary wins for 'guts and balls' .. McCain..hmm I kinda want him to win but he reminds me too much of an old chubby pooch which has had a good run, but now just wants to flop at ur feet by the fire and snoooze.

DIGRESSION..... I've had the odd rant about this Philippino Pastor Quiboloy, but it seems to be getting worse by the day! Can you believe that young impressionable people are actually calling this bloke the "appointed Son of God" and are referring to him as the virtual second coming! It blows my mind.

He declares himSELF as Son of God...and "The rapture is taking place right now" how? Simple..people going to Davao City.. "the new Jerusalem."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjzqTqx43R4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqEngGwvERw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F40xQmnkZoY&feature=related <-inCREDible!

The crowd there is not 'a few hundred'... its a few hundred thousand I'd guess.

I'm waiting... for the clash between his movement and the politicians.
Or.. the sexual abuse.. or.. the financial scandal...or.. the 'now we must all pass to the next life' thing.

Colin Powell would have made a good president so would Ms Rice. But Obama is not only half white ,he is also only half American. Wasn't his father African?
Carrying too much baggage and one wonders what is in that baggage.

Oh Boaz, Boaz. You are so-o-o-o-o-o gullible.

>>The crowd there is not 'a few hundred'... its a few hundred thousand I'd guess.<<

Truly, you should wean yourself off this YouTube habit - it is very bad for your health.

Take another look. There was no doubt some form of rally at some time, where all those people in white made a bit of a showing. Could easily have been a "come in white" Hillsong gathering, for all we know. But it was held indoors, so the audience would have been limited to thousands, rather than tens of thousands. Let alone a few hundred thousand.

You will notice that at no point in any of these videos do you see the Pastor and his "flock" in the same picture - the only shots of himself and the public show a handful of people only. And in all the outdoor shots, there was absolutely nothing to say they weren't at a political rally.

The man is a con artist, and you have been royally conned.

The videos - they have produced 68 of them since March 2007, that's one every twelve days - are produced by his in-house publicists, KingdomNation.

I'm not sure why you have picked on this particular incarnation of a Christian evangelist preacher to complain about. There are literally hundreds like him, all puffed up with their own self-importance.

Mind you, I could be wrong - after all, many were wrong about Jesus during his lifetime, weren't they?

We won't really know for fifty years or so. Then a few people might get together and build a few myths about him. How he was a really compassionate guy who ran many charities, especially for the kids. And how many people followed him around (with many videos to prove it) listening to his every word.

Shouldn't be difficult to manufacture a decent religion out of that, eh?

Is that what concerns you, perhaps?

Hi Pericles...

me... gullible ? :) nah.. my 'hundredS of 1000s might have been a tad over the top, for Quiboloy at that meeting, but there is the audience you don't see.. via TV.

But glad you had a squizz at it all. Did you notice the ONE major issue which differentiates this moron from all the other 'televangelists' who we might consider questionable?

You would have seen it in the last vid of the 3.

"The 2nd coming has come (i.e...HIM)... The rapture is here.. "

He is actually claiming that he himself is the 2nd coming of Christ.
If he is prepared to promote such an awful lie, then a bit of skilful video editing would not be beyond them, but in this case, having seen HUGE HUGE rallies in Africa and the Phils with other evangelists.. some dodgy and some ok.. this kind of crowd is chicken feed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shxu0ba-SKU Now...THIS, is a crowd!
"Red hot chilli peppers..eat ur heart out" :)

Quite a contrast to the 'scattered individuals at ye old country Anglican church eh :)
I cannot say much about this bloke.. a few concerns, nothing concrete.

With all the same problems of the early church as shown by Pauls letters, the Church is still growing in Africa warts and all, in numbers you cannot even begin to imagine.

Black...white...Asian.. all ONE in Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzw45z_QK7g

Even "Idol" is jumping on the bangwagon :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyj1FAQdPzg

None of which is very relevant to the thread of course EXCEPT...in that it shows how a faith movement can be huge, and bring great change to society, apart from law, strife, violence and revolution.
In that sense, true faith is a much better alternative than a liberation movement.

I see a symptom here, I who want Obama to win in a true landslide note if you talk about racism in black America you are branded?
IT EXISTS!it is wrong all racism is wrong.
Obama is not half white not half American not anything but a bright young man with bright new ideas.
His minister is an idiot.
Some true idiots exist in the black church in America.
America is to be tested this year a test I think with two good men one too old for the job one who must over come the idea he is not what he truly is a breath of fresh air.
Good thread BD a focus on truth is no threat.

Dear Belly,

Bravo. Well said, and I couldn't agree with you more.

This election should not be about the race issue in America, or the historical - civil rights movement and Black Power's Powerful Legacy, or Black Theology's Call for Economic Justice.

It should be about the best man (in this case or woman) for the job.

Anything else is merely spin and rhetoric and attempts at slander, provocation, and bigotry. Hopefully most Americans won't buy into its often ugly racial past and will acknowledge racial progress, citizenship, and democracy, a changed America.

Pericles -
Gotta hand it to you - you really keep on trucking with ole BD. But as that last response brilliantly illustrated: water off a ducks back, mate. Water off a ducks back.

Yep, it never ceases to amaze.

>>water off a ducks back, mate. Water off a ducks back<<

Actually, Romany, I've come to the conclusion that Boaz is a collective, not an individual.

Like that People Against Live Wotsits bunch.

Look at the evidence.

Some Boaz posts contain random capital letters and appalling spelling, while others are actually quite lucid.

Some are spattered with random and unfathomable biblical quotes, but - strangely - others place ideas and concepts in a relatively coherent sequence.

But the clincher is that if Boaz were really an individual, he would surely show a greater degree of shame every time he blusters his way down a logical blind alley and is found out.

Because he is a collective, one Boaz simply hands the thread to a colleague and walks away.

That way, no-one gets embarrassed

Awwww Pericles.. ur too harsh :)

No..I'm not a 'collective' its just me.

Don't you notice the same phenomena with Oliver.. he is quite a bright boy but spelling ? aaaargghhhh...

BELLY and FOXY.. thanx for ur comments. Belly, you said:

"Obama is not half white not half American not anything but a bright young man with bright new ideas."

excellent point mate. Thats my own vision for Australia "No ethnic tag"

Dear Foxy.. please understand.. I didn't raise the thread about Obama.. or the American Election...I'm exploring just one thing, the Black Power Movement.

Pericles..back 2u.

"Unfathomable Biblical Passages"?

No mate.. your problem (and it is a problem) is that you simply do not understand how a faith perspective works.. neither the Islamic or the Christian. That's "why" many things are 'unfathomable' to you.

Didn't you notice the interaction between Kayser and myself?

The more we engaged..the more specific he became about 'specific passages' in the Hadith..and the tried to persuade us that the use of 9:29 was purely about 'taxes' and not apostasy, yet the Hadith itself says "apostates".

The point you should draw from that, is.. that he is USING these 'unfathomable' passages to justify or present a position "today".

Now..if PR specialist Kaysar is doing that, surely you need to drill down a bit and try to see where it all fits in.

The reason you 'think' I end up in theological blind ally's is that you don't yet have sufficient grasp of the issues.. truly.

I hereby prescribe regular attendance at a Bible study :)

BLACK POWER... (ummm oh yes..the TOPIC) just like 'Feminism/White power/Asian power/Marxist power' they are all the same.

Understand the writings of Cone....and you will also understand the 'cult' mindset of any movement which has an ethnic/ideological tag and which operates from a secular and or political perspective.

They are ALL a threat to freedom.

You really have honed your condescension to a fine art, have you not, Boaz?

>>The reason you 'think' I end up in theological blind ally's is that you don't yet have sufficient grasp of the issues.. truly.<<

The OED entry describes theology as "the study or science that treats of God, His nature and attributes, and His relations with man and the universe"

The blind alley has nothing to do with theology, which I would have no opinion on.

It is your impact on the real world that I object to.

You can argue "theology" as long as you like with whomever you like. To me it is as meaningful as the sound of two dogs barking at each other.

However, when you use these abstruse ramblings as justification to generate hatred and fear in one set of people against another set of people, I feel it is necessary to point out that the basis of your argument is not reality, merely your interpretation of documents that were put together by people in entirely different circumstances, for entirely different reasons, and from entirely different motivations.

The fact that you can find others who argue with you on the basis of their interpretation of other documents that were put together by another lot of people, but also in entirely different circumstances, for entirely different reasons, and from entirely different motivations, doesn't make it any more meaningful.

Pericles,

You underrate your own contribution to raising standards on OLO. In fact you cheat yourself, by suggesting B_D is a collective.

To quote from your post:

"Actually, Romany, I've come to the conclusion that Boaz is a collective, not an individual.

Like that People Against Live Wotsits bunch.

Look at the evidence.

Some Boaz posts contain random capital letters and appalling spelling, while others are actually quite lucid."

The evidence is that since you took B_D to task for his then relatively extensive upper case work some time back,
he has improved his style markedly. Granted he ( as many others of us do) has since reverted to the use of capitals on occasions, but I get the sense that when that has happened, it is for the want of a bold type facility in the submission window. Perhaps this is something OLO could look at (a la the Ubuntu Forums posting window, which not only has Smileys, but bold type and COLOUR!).

All,

I guess glove puppetry is something we all have to remember is always possible. The faking of literary style is more difficult than might be imagined. The concealment thereof is manyfold more difficult, if not impossible. Read the B_D user history. Make your own judgement. Go through the user profile: you will find a point of distinct decapitalisation. Decide for yourself, ON THE EVIDENCE!

Remember! Resistance is futile! The Mind is a collective! Style is an affectation! Posture, and you will most certainly be deformed! 'Things' are as 'we' say they are. Assimilation is inevitable. We are the Borg!

B_D,

Interesting to see Keysar Trad refer to the words spoken in Luke 19:27 as if they were the words of Jesus. Well of course they were, inasmuch as they were spoken by him, but as the concluding line of a parable! The parable was an allusion, probably all too familiar to the audience of that day, to the confirmation of one of the successors to Herod the Great by Rome! Did Keysar not realize this when he quoted this scripture?

Hi Forest....

Kaysar simply did what most Muslim apologists..or..'cornered' Muslms do, 'attack' but sadly they attack with blunt weapons.. and even the wrong ones.

But kaysar has embarked on a new form of attack.. called the 'Dreyfus Case model' :) You might recall (or can look up) that once Dreyfus had been arrested, and it looked like the trial may implicate Major Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy.. that Major did exactly what Kaysar is doing -the "shotgun method" of filling the evidence folders with numerous pieces of irrelevant information, bogging down and sidetracking the judiciary.

Kaysar opened his last post with a shotgun attack on the Bible. It can only be called at 'attack' because he quotes incredibly irrelevant passages which have no bearing on the matter under discussion, which was surah 9:29 and the associated Hadith which interprets it.

What "Ruth COHABITS with Boaz in the barn." has to do with that, I have not the slightest idea.

Clearly he is trying to say

"BOAZ.. you say the Quran has problems.. but what about THIS" kind of thing.

His choice of verses from the Bible are from the twighlight zone.

"Boaz co-habits with ruth in the barn"....er..so? does that make Christians more likely to invade their enemies? :)

*confused look*

Kaysar is just stuck in a corner and is trying to whack the nearest fundi and get out of it.

We can discuss the Bible anytime. But he is only here sometimes.

He should have chosen the most 'juicy' passage. "Do you think I came to bring peace? No, not peace but a sword"

aaah..now we are talking :)
I promise..its-a-comin.. probably in his next post.

What I find curious though, is this. He picks a lot of verses from here and there.. then claims 'the bible (which he says he is not disrespecting) contains as many 'difficult' passages as the Quran.

In all of that, he does not show, nor can he, that Christians are commanded to INVADE non Christians and subjugate them. Which is my major point about Islam as a faith.

and GWB wasn't a white power advocate? Puleese!

Boazy: << He picks a lot of verses from here and there.. then claims 'the bible (which he says he is not disrespecting) contains as many 'difficult' passages as the Quran. >>

I know you don't understand this, Boazy, but those of us who don't belong to your "faith communities" tend to see pots, kettles and blackness in this round-robin game you religious zealots play with each other. However, at OLO the religious vilification tends to come exclusively from the Christian fundies, rather than from those few brave Muslims who are game enough to engage here.

<< In all of that, he does not show, nor can he, that Christians are commanded to INVADE non Christians and subjugate them. >>

I'm not exactly sure what Rainier meant by his subsequent post, but I do seem to recall Bush saying something to the effect that he'd prayed to God about invading Iraq, and that God approved.

The media rushed to associate Obama with the extreme religious Reverend Wright, yet barely a blip on the publicity meter is raised when Rebublican McCain's ally, John Hagee, sees Hitler as the necessary catalyst for the establishment of Israel.

I wonder why Boaz missed this when he decided to start this thread on the USA election.

"Last week, John Hagee, a televangelist sought out by John McCain for political support, expressed regret to Catholics for his attacks on the Roman Catholic Church (he’s called the church, among other things, “the great whore” and “a false cult system”). This week, it looks like it’s time for yet another apology.

John Hagee, the controversial evangelical leader and endorser of Sen. John McCain, argued in a late 1990s sermon that the Nazis had operated on God’s behalf to chase the Jews from Europe and shepherd them to Palestine. According to the Reverend, Adolph Hitler was a “hunter,” sent by God, who was tasked with expediting God’s will of having the Jews re-establish a state of Israel.

Seriously. He really did make the argument..."

Read on and view the video at:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/election08/86157/

And consider the reason why religion and politics should always be kept separate for all our sakes.