I am against the sale I am an active ALP member and on this issue alone think Morris Iemma should leave the government.
Why sell? is the state so broke we must tax every resident with higher energy prices?
One small step at a time we have sold much of what we once owned and paid for it twice higher prices and even buying shares in once public owned enterprises?
The upcoming ALP state conference will be of great interest rumors too strong to be untrue say one union has sold its sole to the government It however will not be enough.
What benefit Mr Iemma in selling? what benefit in overturning party policy?

Dear Belly,

The Sydney Morning Herald had an excellent Editorial, (February 27, 2008), on the subject under the heading, "What do we want? Secure power supplies."

In the article they say, "Sagging in the polls, the Government has few achievements to boast of to lift its standing with voters, and plenty of bad news weighing it down from hospitals, trains, buses, roads and schools. The Independent Commission Against Corruption's Wollongong inquiry is daily undermining the Government's legitimacy.

The Premier, Morris Iemma, and the Treasurer, Michael Costa, know a circuit-breaker is needed... In the face of repeated criticism over their failure to invest in the future of the state, the announcement of major projects that are properly funded (unlike, for example, the north-west rail corridor) might provide it.

Hence their eagerness to sell the state's energy retailers and lease its power stations. By selling off assets and functions which do not need to be run by governments, they can invest in those that do.

Holding on to the assets is not an option. Yet thought it may spring from a certain desperation, the strategy is sound."

Belly, if the Iemma Government fails to secure the power supply with new investment, there will be blackouts. Surely that's not what the unions really want for the people of NSW?

We will have a once off sale of valuable income earning asset and once this lot of wasteful piss ants spend it,up will go our taxes to cover the loss of income .Also up will go the price of energy and guess what?The Iemma Govt won't then be electorally reponsible.

The NSW Govt cannot guarantee that prices will escalate.You just can't trust them.

I agree Belly but unfortunately like many governments before (including Labor) another publicly owned asset is on the chopping block.

It pains me to see another public asset sold due to bad management, when all the public assests are sold and there is nothing to left to sell, the government may actually have to change their modus operandi and become better economic managers. There will be no more bandaids.

NZ suffered power blackouts after they privatised their power because the new owner decided that maintenance was too costly and reflected badly on the profit margin. Where profit is the main objective and there is no competition I don't hold out much optimism on the quality of service that will be provided.

I believe many power and water/water treatment companies in the various states are foreign owned, so we can't take much comfort even in our profits remaining in Australia.

I do wonder what you actually stand for.

I had said before the state election that this was going to be sold off but no one took notice, not the unions, not the workers.

We know that there will be people put off as they did in victoria.

We know the service will go down hill.

We know kevin rudd and his followers in government are backing this sale.

But it doesnt matter anyway.

all the labor and unions will still on voting day vote labor no matter what they do.

The unions put these people in and know want there cake and eat it to.

When will they learn that they are paid by the workers and not the labor party.

When will they really stand up and fight for the people and say the labor party is wrong and corrupt.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

Tapp may I be honest?
Based on your words in this forum over a few years I look else ware for any understanding of politics.
Foxy with my always existing respect for you those words every one of them came from that paper and those it represents not NSW rate payers and power users.
Now if NSW would be better from a sale then sell.
If privatized power was to be at or even near current costs ok sell.
Other states use power to bargain with massive industry's, bringing new jobs to them with power deals.
NSW see, s industry leave because we have neglected to keep power station renewals up to needs.
No one is more hurt by the failures of my party but look at our phones for one service and costs have acted against us from day one of selling.
Unions are not alone in wanting to keep power in our hands, if we look back to things like the Sydney rocks area we see proof unions have always been involved in social justice issues this is such.
Headlines will be made in the next few weeks on this issue we should shudder to think a do very little opposition is going to win this states next election by doing nothing but waiting for Iemma to sell his followers out.

Power generation should, IMO, be as widely distributed as possible. The days of large generators sending power thousands of kilometers with the concomitant inefficiencies should be well and truly numbered.

I am currently working on a gasification plant for my business's waste stream, which will generate considerably more power than I can use. That power will be fed back to the grid and I'll be paid for it. The same could be done by any business that has a waste stream with a high organic (containing carbon) content. The initial cost is not high and it doesn't require a lot of space, nor does it need to be either noisy or smelly.

In view of the changing technology, I'd just as soon see the large "dinosaur" power plants sold off and the money used to fund further development of alternatives. Sadly, of course, they'll be sold and the money used for some stupid purpose like pursuing those "potential mass murderers" (LMAO) with laser pointers. Shame.

Excellent work, Antiseptic.

Demonstrating that sustainable energy can be affordable and practicable.

Part of the problem is that our leaders in government and industry as still in thrall to monopolies.

Selling NSW Power will not help - a change in attitude and behaviour will.

2 interesting posts I agree with both, but nothing to do with the thread?
Truly nothing at all, the question is why has the NSW government made up its mind to sell the power generation?
And is it good for the state?
Why say the party's long standing on record policy not to do so is to be ignored?
The thread even asks would we be better or worse of?
But without doubt we do need new ideas for power generation and smaller plants even running on other fuels may be the part answer.
Be concerned if you thought you elected an ALP government in this state.
It is not so now, overturning party policy's threatening members who oppose this, and the lie yes lie that power black outs are coming without privatization.
Every now and again we need to think about our party's direction, mine is no longer the one we elected just a while ago, new leadership is called for and some honesty.
If we are to sell power to get infrastructure so Morris can get re elected we need not bother he is gone.

As belly keeps saying be concerned but what about rudd backing the sale.

This is something that these people keep forgeting to say.

So why is rudd and his lackeys backing the sale of state assets.

Why is it the unions keep hiding and just keep ging on about NSW labor, they should also focus on federal labor as well.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

SELL SELL SELL. It should have been sold years ago when the assets were worth twice as much as they were today. Today they are worth about 15-17 bill but back in the days of bob bloody carr they were worth about 30 bill and I still remember the labour party crusading against selling them. Why the sudden change of heart from labour? Wait for the price to halve and then sell?

Instead of putting the money towards power stations it could be better spent on building and improving Sydney and the rest of the states infrastructure. For starters they could improve the rail network by not only expanding but also increasing the amount of services.

A second airport would also be a good idea and even a fast train link to a satellite city so as to reduce the upward pressure on house prices.

There is plenty of competition in the power sector (I think we already buy a lot of power from Victoria) and if prices go up it will most likely be because of raw material cost then anything else

Well the states rail network , thats a joke.

Didnt you know it was sold of and the state just leases the trains, engines and carraiges.

No wonder it has gone down hill and costing us 10 times as much, but hey labor has to look after their mates.

Stuart ulrich
Independent

belly: "2 interesting posts I agree with both, but nothing to do with the thread?
Truly nothing at all, the question is why has the NSW government made up its mind to sell the power generation?
And is it good for the state?"

I disagree that it was irrelevant. I made the point that large centralised power plants are dinosaurs that will become less useful over time. I don't know whether that is in the collective mind of the NSW Govt, but it should be. To answer the second question: yes, it is good for the State, because if the centralised infrastructure is retained it will become progressively less valuable as new technologies take over. Far better to sell it now and invest the money in those new technologies.

EASY TIMES at least knows part of the story true that Carr was stopped by the party from selling.
And true that todays price is half what it was then.
Power controls development, it brings jobs to a state or takes them away.
It is ok to rant about rail services or any infrastructure but who pays?
And is there any evidence passenger rail in its current form will ever pay its way?
More Honesty I am afraid Stu, you have difficulty finding people to debate with you, seem blind to the fact I am both union and ALP.
But constantly place the blame for NSW s dreadful leadership on both.
If you said conservatives are the answer just maybe I could respect your views.
But you are on record here in this forum bagging them too!
It seems your well named but empty party The Australian Peoples Party, is the one.
Why then Stu did you stand as an independent?
Why the self assurance on a result of just under 2% of the vote?
If my party has an on the record rule saying we will not sell our power why sell?
If NSW is better for selling then sell, but convince me Stu use the forum to debate not insult.
It is my view without new leadership my party is handing this state to conservatives without doubt.

If i was to insult you you would know.

No rants from here

The rail has been sold of and leased back, have a look at how bad it is

The electricity have a look at how bad privatisation is for victoria, loss of jobs, bad service

are these not things that you the unions should be fighting for the workers.

Now make up your mind belly you work for the workers or the alpp.

Everytime you speak about me you insult all those you apparently stand for.

As you see i keep fighting for the people where as you keep fighting for the alpp.

So who pays your wages.

There was a big write up in vic with the unions saying how bad the electricity privatisation is, so why dont you lot take notice.

Bag me as much as you like but when it comes to corruption and the Heiner affair nobody could even come close to the predators that the unions and alpp(alp) are.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent
A free voice

Look just like the 2020 Summit, this thread is ignoring the
energy elephant in the corner.
We are on the cusp of an energy crisis and as well the Federal
Government is planning carbon taxes that will impact on power stations.

In those circumstances why would anyone risk billions.
There is just too much uncertainty for the state government to even
consider selling the stations. We just have no idea what impacts will
hit us in the future. We can guess, but we really do not know.

In the long run distributed generation may well be the answer but
it will be a long time coming. We will need full political control of
energy generation and distribution to cope with the powerdown that
will follow the start of oil depletion and the switching of the energy
load from oil to electricity.

Geez Belly, your starting to sound like me.

This issue is surely a test of any remaining integrity for the NSW ALP. I don't think they have any left. Bell, I bailed out years ago, around the time Keating sold off the CBA.

I am yet to hear one argument for this sell off that has not been refuted by independent observers.

What a bunch of greedy, grasping, back-stabbing tossers this lot are.

Where is the statewide pole campaign by the ETU now? 'Your Rights at Work' indeed. Try telling that to the Singapore govt. or whoever.

So where does that leave Rudd and his cronies.

Since they are backing the sale.

It seems Krudd needs the sale to fund his election promises.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

I agree with the Editorial of the Sydney Morning Herald, Feb. 27th, 2008 which explains it thus:

"Environmentalists are opposed on several gounds: the loss of government control over critical assets, and the likely choice of choal as fuel for a new baseload power station - recommended in last September's Owen report. The two issues, though, should be separated.
Whether a privatised power industry would invest in coal-fired generators or other technology can be put to one side.

Privatisation, the transfer of ownership or control of assets to the private sector, is a simple question of management. Are such businesses run better by governments or by private enterprise?

In the absence of any compelling reason for subsidising power supplies, government ownership is simply unnecessary.

The existing generators already operate within the deregulated national electricity market, and will be subject to its competitive pressures. That is the public's guarantee that prices will be kept as low as possible. They should not be held artificially below that, as privatisation's opponents appear to want, because to do so would encourage overuse of electricity. Price should be an important signal for consumers.

Prices may indeed have to rise. Given growing public concern about global warming, consumers should be encouraged to examine critically how they use power, to ensure none is wasted. The environmental lobby has pressed for the introduction of smart electricity meters in NSW.
Some are already in service. These tell householders how much power they are using, and let them tailor their demand on the system.

But demand reduction cannot be the only strategy to meet future needs in a state that expects rapid population growth, and corresponding economic growth, in coming decades. To underpin it, a new, secure supply of baseload power is needed, and the way to fund it is tapping the resources of the private sector.

The Government should not be deflected from continuing with this necessary measure."

Foxy reducing demand, better fuels, even smaller power stations are issues but.
This thread highlights Morris Iemma and his mate are telling us porkys.
If they tell the truth, if they say why they want to place us in the hands of whatever foreign owner they sell to, and if they admit it will cost much more , sell.
I regret the need TAPP to talk to you, sorry honesty again, it is not true that NSW has sold its rail.
Like most of your posts you have got a little truth mixed with a lot of fantasy.
Freight rail Australia wide owns part of the System Rudd is not the leader of NSW.
Stu it is said I run away from you , not true , I place no value on your ability to understand any issue.
One more time it is ALP on the record policy not to sell, of late my party, you highlighted this Stu ,HQ has overridden its members time and again.
Now it or two of its air wasting leaders are intent on over riding the whole party!
My stand is for the ALP not against it, for the union movement not against it.
Public private partnerships? maybe, sell? no way.
Who subsidizers pensioner bills in a private world?

For those who do not live in NSW or even Australia yesterdays NSW press had a Worth while story.
It revealed.
Just before our election unions received a promise that a re elected government had no intention of selling power to any one.
It is a long term policy that we will not do it while my party is in government.
In about 1999 the conservatives lost an election because they went to an election with a plan to sell it.
So apart from the lies , apart from the deliberate attempts to over ride party policy why sell?
Are many aware Victoria power has sent its call centers of shore? to India? that to call up saying power is of may see that message delayed? and repair men come from a very long way away.
I have reviewed my heat in this thread, yes I am a unionist and proud of it.
And a member of the NSW ALP less proud of that this weekend.
My heat is directed mostly at another sell off by my party of unions and the states power users, if just one honest reason had been given I would not be screaming my contempt at this weekends conference.
Just a tiny bit of my heat is generated at claims unions are betraying this state, are part of this lie,
A few more here in these threads who are willing to confront their side of politics may see better outcomes for us all.
Lets put ourselves at some future date ten years after privatization of power will services be ok? prices stable? am I being unrealistic in saying unlikely?

Belly,

It seems to me that the NSW government is about to sell out of a position of extreme advantage on behalf of the public it is supposed to represent.

It has existing coal-fired generating capacity located right on seawater lakes. It has a chronic water supply shortage immediately adjacent to this capacity. There is enormous waste heat loss from this generating capacity suitable for effecting desalination. Should existing coal-fired capacity be adapted to also desalinate with waste heat, solar pond brines can be accumulated over the remaining life of the coal-fired capacity sufficient to entirely replace that capacity with non-polluting solar energy derived electricity.

There is also, I understand, a geo-thermal (hot dry rock) resource located in the upper Hunter region, not too distant from the existing upper Hunter coal-fired generation plant. Does no one in government see the opportunity to solve several supply problems at once, using existing assets to maximum advantage? Electricity is not the only thing that can be transmitted over significant distances: so too can desalinated water, in things called pipes, with the water moved by things called off-peak electric pumps.

Why, when all of the EXISTING assets, plus the legislative power to co-ordinate and facilitate such a plan to not only alleviate foreseen shortages, but switch over to more acceptable sustainable energy sources in the process, are all in hand and co-located, would any government hand them off to private foreign interests having no such plan or policy concerns?

Far Kurnell! Has ALL the vision in this country been relegated to the scrap heap? Why would the community, already owning all the necessary assets to solve anticipated problems, have any need to create room for additional private profit in this well understood activity?

I sense that the public are intentionally being kept in the dark (sadly, no pun intended) with regard to this issue.

Can it be that the Iemma government believes, or indeed knows, that public opinion, as eventually expressed through the ballot box, is irrelevant? How could such a thing possibly be?

If you put aside all the political rhetoric and just look at the
situation which may well exist in 5 to 15 years.
It may well be that a decision to shut down a power plant or build
several more will be have to be made.

Every decision made today has to made with peak oil in mind.
This is where the 2020 conflab went wrong, it took no note of peak oil.

No commercial operation can possibly know what commitments will be needed
in the next 10 years or so.
Will we be in the midst of a severe depression or just a complete
realignment of our whole industrial structure and power systems ?

Only governments are in a position to obtain the resources that
may be needed. The normal commercial sources could well be in
complete disarray. Look at how just a simple misjudgment in lending
has got us into the current mess.
It seems totally unlikely that the commercial world could cope with
a major energy crisis.

There is just too much uncertainty.

Well belly back to the media

suprisingly before the state election i was told that the power industry was going to be sold off.

To that i informed the media and this was after the state saying no we wont, I had also informed the union and actu.

We someone was wrong or just to gullible to believe what labor and the unions said.

I have kept saying that this was going to be sold off and kept being told it wont.

Well seems like labor conferance and labor policy is what this is all about.

Hang on isnt government about the people.

So believe what you want and say what you want as i know the unions havnt been working that hard putting up a fight.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent
Saying what needs and should be said
Not party speaches

Forrest great post every word true, Bazz too Stu are you aware of the impacts of my fight?
I could be thrown out of my job and my party?, but you under value our fight maybe do not understand we have already won.
While both sides if they could would sell let me ask this question.
Addicted to poker machine tax's in fact gambling income in all forms sold or selling every thing we once owned what is the purpose of government?
No way I want soft socialism but why not at least try to get better outcomes from rail, power, hospitals schools?
Why not be the first state[it must come] that mandates better use of power.
If half the office lights had to be turned of at night, if smaller local- power stations are built so many ifs.
This weekend is not one of radical unionists taking action, not greedy workers wanting more.
It is forced on us by dead set lies a fight for every one who uses and currently owns NSW power.
I remind my party as it looks for a way to back down it is the end of taking working people for granted.
Of forgetting the history of the party, like it or not some ex unionists sit in the House growing fat.
All over this state at this time this early morning workers get ready to go to work wifes know it will be hard to make to days pay packet last the full week and another foreign owned bill was about to rise power.
In advance thanks for every one who stands for social justice this weekend
Morris mate it is time, true you may look good in the members bar but it is too late to remake your self so soon after workchoices your words grate on my nerves see ya.

Well we all know what thought thought and the unions are finding it in their pants.

Seems there conferance has put some bad smells into the air and now maybe the unions should start looking at the people and not ALP conferences.

But wait what a pack of hypocrites they are, the jeered the premier but when it came to Rudd, who has given his backing for the sale they all praised him.

What they want their cake and to eat it too.

Like i said before the state election this would happen but hey what can i say but,

I TOLD YOU SO.

So when it comes to the workers and the people, well you are only collateral damage for them.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

I am back from conference I took part in the debate and heard every word until 1 pm today.
Here are my honest thoughts.
If not one unionist vote was counted the idea would still have been rejected massively numbers prove it.
The debate was intense and clearly in every detail won by the no vote, some claims for the yes vote are clearly lies.
Saturday we wore our no sale t shirts, Sunday they stayed in our rooms, we truly thought the engine room of the whole Australian Labor Party the NSW branch had been heard.
That while damage had been done and we needed to rebuild we had been heard and No one would override the party's intent.
Remember this was the party that spoke the people union and non union who delivered 10 new federal seats and Morris Emma's victory.
No doubt we did cheer with joy Rudd we remember workchoices and float high with his achievements Saying sorry workchoices so very many things in just 5 months..
Watch and understand however the implications of yesterday, history may record this day as the day Labor told its party it was now owned by two men not its rank and file.
Stu you need help, no aimless insult truth, unions are backed into a corner, this action sees no other outcome than a fight if we do not if we fold we say we are no longer part of the party ever, just its slaves.
If not one of us voted NSW would still reject this traitors act, because it is wrong, no over seas government wants to buy our power for charity reasons.
The ALP is its own property, never meant to be the private property of its parent the union movement.
This is of such importance that we may look back to this day as the day we remembered family's can have more than one child.

While many in my party will be more than upset with me I know without doubt this is bigger than all of us.
It is as big as workchoices.
I urge every one who owns a yellow t shirt from this campaign to bring them out as a mocking tool.
Get the names of Iemma and his mates on them as if autographed and wear them
We can talk about solidarity and the need to protect the party , to come together and heal but not yet not till Costa and Morris are memory's, not until others know we are a democratic party not private property.
While joy is my feelings about our federal government I am not sure even that a country conference of the NSW ALP will even be held in Port Macquarie this November.
The debate is two fold is the ALP a Democratic one?
And can just a handful truly say party policy is not a reason to change their intent to sell this states property.
Well in truth thirdly what have you done Morris? what is the real reason you want to sell?
What is so important that you are prepared to destroy the Engine of the Australian Labor Party?
If unions lay down, if the party lays down the damage will never be fixed the only way out is saying good by to Iemma and Costello very soon tell me another healing tool.
Robo would be a great leader for this state his is the man to again lead in a fight against a new government who has no respect for us.
No intent to hear the peoples voice, who will man those booths?
No need for party meetingS if we are not heard no need for door knocking no booths no room for us in a private property ALP.
one branch JUST ONE voted for the sale.

Belly,

I am not a member of any political party, so I cannot lay claim to detailed knowledge of the respective rules that may apply to party members in general, or members of the ALP in particular. I am nevertheless curious as to what the overwhelming vote against sale of NSW electricity generation business recorded at the NSW State Conference of the ALP on 3 May 2008 means in terms of how NSW parliamentary members of the ALP may now act.

Assuming that all necessary legislation to permit this sell-out has already been quietly passed by the NSW Parliament (as I suspect it may have been), there would presumably be nothing in the ordinary course of events that either rank-and-file party members, nor even an overwhelming majority of ALP members of the State parliament, could now do to prevent the government going ahead with this deal if the gang of two (or is it more?) are determined to do so.

Where would members of the NSW Parliamentary ALP stand if en-masse, and perhaps together with some opposition members, they voted no confidence in the government over this issue? If its only Iemma and Costa that really want the sell-out, that would appear to be a bearable sacrifice for a new ALP government to make. Those members surely wouldn't all face expulsion, in the light of the overwhelming party membership vote, would they? I mean, if ever there was a time when such a parliamentary coup could safely be undertaken with respect to retention of government, it is against the scenery provided by the present 'opposition'.

And if ever there was a time when such a rebellion against a 'pre-selected elite' in NSW politics was necessary, with respect to retention of genuine future electoral support, it is against the scenery provided by the present 'opposition'.

I'm not trying to create mischief in asking these questions. I guess if anything I'm trying to suggest our whole national political agenda has been hijacked. Glad you had the opportunity to see it at first hand.

Forest Gump,
From what Iemma has said the legislation is in preparation
and will be presented to Parliament when complete.

It is at that time that members can vote for or against.
If the measure is defeated, then a vote of no confidence could be taken.

If passed, then the premier must/should go to the governor and submit
his resignation and advise who might be able to form a government.

Of course the labour parliamentary members could unseat the premier in
a caucus meeting. He would remain a member of parliament.

From memory, I think there have been a number of reports that we have
to install a lot more generation capacity or we will be in for
frequent blackouts. The whole idea may be to unload the responsibility
for the coming blackouts onto private companies.

I am not very sympathetic to the labour party but
I think the party members have it right in the coming circumstances.

It is like the selling off of resources companies to Chinese
Government organisations, they will export to China only and leave
nothing for Australia or any other country.
Of course the electricity could not be exported, but in a time of
peak resources we need public control of any rationing that may be needed.

Public-Private Partnership: A partnership where risk and overruns go to the public sector, profit to the private sector and political donations to the party in government.

Forrest regards, please believe that I believe every word I write here to be true.
That my party or faction right or wrong is gutlessness and an insult to good government.
Much of what the Sydney Medea has written is lies, yesterday the conference told these few the party's wishes, remember the vote would be unchanged if no unionist was in the room.
I know my faction has given ground many times for the good of the party it must not budge now.
1.5 billion dollars, that is the profit from our power grid for last year.
It will be more maybe 2 billion next year after that? in ten years maybe 5 or even 6 billion profit a year.
Yet we sell for 10 or 15 billion?
It would pay for its self in No more than 8 years, we would not have than annual income ever again.
Why can we not borrow 20 billion now? build two new power stations and spend rest on hospitals?
The annual profits from power could be split half to pay the loan and a reduced amount to top up health [less needed if we spend half that loan]
Today my party's head is silently saying he has no more regard for unions than Howard and no regard for his party.
If union cave in who from among us has the power to say no next time?
This is the time we unionists must say enough! no more!
Why?
every time energy prices rise any energy tax's do too! our nation is driven by high energy tax's about to go higher yet again.
An old union war anthem power to the people never meant more!
Costa lead ,yes he did! the war to stop Carr selling it ,he now wants to add two extras to his sale the union movement and NSW Labor.
23 years was the sentence served last time it may be more this time.
no back down! we must stand and fight or fade away as unworthy.
Labor is not private property or is it?

So Belly
one would say that Rudd also has the same fondness as you have said.
Re the following paragraph.

Today my party's head is silently saying he has no more regard for unions than Howard and no regard for his party.

We know Rudd has backed this sale, he also stuck his nose into the branches and put his own people in for the election so why are you not having a go at him as well.

Soi really the unions want their cake and to eat it too.

And another thing where are all these so called people who used to fight for the workers.

Have nothing to say but what rudd tells them to.
The unions are just a labor patsy and the workers , well they come of second best.
But then again since the unions will get more air time now they may do something.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

I had thought long and hard about not coming back to the thread.
Stu your input is like throwing a handful of stones into a Christmas pudding mix, of little use.
This debate is not going away, dressed as unions trying to control the ALP it is in fact far more important.
It is government trying to ignore the party.
A state issue yet you throw your stones on behalf of your well named but empty shell party.
On record as opposed to both sides of politics TAPP is going no place , but to use threads to insult without constructing your ideas is pointless.
I fly out to Brisbane in a few hours and may not return to the thread for days but can you not see currently 73% of voters are happy with Rudd?
At this years rate of return 1.5 billion profit the lease and sale of power gives away 150 billion in income much more in fact more than twice that as prices rise over the lease/salegive away period.
The ten billion price is returned in full in 8 years, the rest is profit.
Yet price rises will have to be included?
Is there one word , a commitment? to build a power station in this proposal in the next ten years?
At what cost to the buyer?
Who pays them?
price rises do.

Belly
Even if you are away

That fact still remains that rudd is supporting this sale.

Does that not make you all hypocrites.

You have not denied this or even fought it.

If it gets to hot with those questions you do not want to answer for the people.

If you back rudd you back the sell off.

This is fact

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

Belly, this thread was needed and you were the obvious poster to start it.

The issues and responses raised by all posters here deserve full disclosure in articles and hopefully SusanP will source them.

Although a late starter (been watching with interest) I am not opposed to the sale.

However, if this is to be done, then it is imperative that very strong government regulations must go with it.

This is where the unions can have invaluable input. Negotiate this properly and you/the unions will have served the public well.

As it is, the very public battle we are seeing is doing the unions no good (political opponents are watching bemused).

Mind you, Labor's opponents would conduct such shenanigans behind closed doors! This would IMO be worse.

Make no mistake, no matter what eventuates (deal or no deal), energy costs are going to rise. How these costs are distributed makes it all the more imperative that unions have a say.

Best wishes.

What we have is the unions belief that at the conference they would overide the government and this is why they have been saying it will not happen.

Before the state election i had said this would happen, also writing to the ACTU, Greg Combet , media and unions but they where not interested that this could not happen.

We have Rudd backing the sale

We have Keating backing the sale

We have Carr backing the sale

Where are all these federal MP's, Hiding as they are just bending over.
Looks like i will have to buy them some cream.

So why are the unions still supporting these people.

Why because they are hypocrites and nothing more.

This is the thing i have kept asking but not getting the answer.

Those from the parties are too scared to really put it on the line and stand for the people.

The people deserve more than just claytons parties and unions.

Like i said before "I told you so"

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

TAPP have you counted the people who regularly talk to you here?
Can you not understand it does not matter who among the past or present ALP leaders support this sale it is a state issue?
That Costa and mad Morris can fix it now?
Do you not understand your blast that unions support it over the past 3 months is so very foolish?
It however is not, no way, be honest Stu just unions vs these rejects.
It was the party's rank and file who got rolled.
Rudd? you surely must understand he is not the issue?
How can you run a party that does not understand for the time being Rudd is just what a massive number of voters want?
Including me for the present Brendon Nelson is as far from political reality as you Stu, truly as unlikely to rule as you are to ever win a seat for your party, even if it was in a raffle!
I am away for another day till Thursday not hiding from you but note this event marks a historic turning point.
Who mans the polling booths? who knocks on the doors? a party ruled by two men is no party.
Conference may as well have been at the races I would have liked to see R S Dye ride into second place my horse rather than these two ride my party into the ground.

I am interested in knowing whether the foreseen gap in capability of meeting NSW demand for electricity arises because of anticipated demand imposed by the intended Kurnell desalination facility. In other words, WITHOUT the Kurnell desalination, would NSW be facing any power shortage as early as 2014?

Is this supply gap only in relation to PEAK demand?

Do not mistake these questions as implying opposition to the idea of seawater desalination as an at least partial, and indeed climate independent, solution to metropolitan water shortage. It is just that it seems as if the Kurnell project may be the wrong sort of desalination, in the wrong place, using the wrong sort of energy, and wasting a major by-product (presently seen as a potential pollutant), the relatively more concentrated brine produced.

The concentrated brines capable of being produced by using waste heat desalination are the basis of one of the most cost-efficient forms of solar heat collection, solar pondage. The prospect exists of accumulating enough of such brines during the remaining life of the existing coal-fired capacity to totally replace coal and/or natural gas leaving solar radiation as the energy source for round-the-clock NSW electricity generation. The Hunter region is not unfavourable for solar pondage heat collection.

I understand that new generating capacity to fill the foreseen gap in electricity supply (irrespective of the reason for such gap) is to take the form of natural gas fired generators to be co-located with existing coal-fired capacity at Vales Point and/or Eraring, and the existing reticulation network used to distribute this power. The proposed energy source is thus still fossil-based thermal, merely being arguably 'cleaner'.

Given that 'peak oil' is claimed to exist, that energy costs can seemingly only rise dramatically, and that 'coal is bad!', what wisdom exists in the NSW government abandoning a position from which it can co-ordinate orderly transition to the most desirable, non-pollutant, inexhaustable, and inexpensive, energy source?

Time for the 'pre-selected elites' of the NSW Parliament, and the ALP caucus in particular, to rethink?

Poor ole belly

Still dont get it

You didnt complain when they stuck their noses in at state and local branches for the federal election.

You's didnt mind when he stuck his nose in at the state conference.

But you's dont care what he says about the power sell off.

Hypocrites.

Also no one wants to debate due to doing as they are told due to party dictatorship, no free will. Also some of them may just see the point i am making, dont forget to clean your tongue.

How are those overseas shirts going that you all bought.

This is why we have so much trouble in Aus the unions and labor always winging about local jobs but what do they do, get their stuff from overseas sweatshops.

We also now have treasury report saying that removing awa's will create job losses.

What the unions and labor said this would not happen.

Oh thats right i also said it would cost jobs.

So how much longer are the unions going to keep up with these lies, sooner or latter the people will work this out and the unions and labor well, back at the bottom again.

I write what i think, hear and see,

not what i am told to think and see.

By the way how many shares are the unions going to take, since it is the peoples power stations of NSW.

Some of us know that labor did well out off the sale of the commonwealth bank, another kick in the teeth to the people by labor and the unions.

I may one day have respect for the unions but not until they go to court with the alp over the hiding of child sexual abuse and the hiding of child physical abuse.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

I have been able to keep up only via news papers but some things are clear.
I go on record saying every thing I post are my views not my union or party's.
Morris Costa, and those who support the sale betray the party first.
They betray the union movement, yes Stu including me who worked so hard to win the seat you love to refer to.
No one can ignore the long term nature of the damage they have done , to the NSW party machine and just maybe nationally.
Let us get this clear UNIONS are not trying to control the party, while unions can be blamed for not rebutting that lie it is not true.
Without one single vote from a union delegate the vote would have been the same.
In ten years privately owned power will cost more.
Service will be worse.
Each of those ten years will not see that 1.5 billion dollars returned in profit to the state.
In ten years that annual profit may be equal to the cost price per year, true frightening but true.
We will have long ago spent the sale price who makes up the annual loss?
Forget the nearly racist ideas China will own our power, the fact we will not is what matters.
I am not fighting because of job loss or lower wages, both matter but if it was good for the state why not?
I am not fighting for union power but rank and file party power against the rank and vile who claim ownership of my party.

If this day Morris Iemma walked on stage arm in arm with a true man of merit John Robinson and said we have an agreement it would not be over.
This scar is a lasting one, right now you can be assured a conservative dressed as Ronald Macdonald would win an election.
The question has been raised but here it is again, why have a conference?
Why have Branch's?
True far too many are in the hands of a few who farm membership so only their views are heard why be concerned at changing them?
Just disband them, we do not listen to them.
Look at the lost millions in NSW rail who ignored that theft?
Privatized roads eating public owned ones to get higher profits for some?
Ex ministers working for banks that build our infrastructure?
Maybe combatants in this fight waiting for those same employers to call?
Is their room in my party for a train driver today?
Yes we need change union and party we need change it is my true view unions should consider talking to the party about to rule NSW not the party who will not listen.

Watched statewide last night not as much as it was in real life our minister for health spoke so much rubbish maybe she should change portfolios
She is miss handling hers in any case Costa? he was even worse than the bit showed.
I have a question for them what are the benefits of selling?
NSW every one in NSW can mark this time as the time a handful in the NSW Labor government betrayed us all.

Saw in the paper the union had another of their secret meetings.

What the unions dont realise that there are a lot of non working people who live here as well, but hey they dont pay union fees so it must have been about the pay off to the unions and the workers as the only MP here who says anything is Independent, as the federal member has to much off a brown tongue.

And for those who dont like my non political way of speaking well stiff.

I will say it as it is seen.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent

Stu your self confidence is sadly, badly miss placed as for your understanding of politics?
My honestly held view mate is zero.
After some years reading your posts even surfing your out puts else ware I find nothing but a wish we vote independent.
That in its self is not wrong , my hope for my party is that members in this state think about voting against the party.
I must inform you, listen please , not for lost jobs, not for union power but for the good of NSW unions and some very brave politicians are meeting.
Both are being threatened by a very few who have stolen the NSW ALP.
Stu you hand out insults to both no matter what actions they take, you insult Rudd, ignore his current standing in the polls and talk of the need to fight?
Mate you are the head of a party yet seem lost in a world of your own?
I am proud of those who fight still to stop the sale and invite the conservatives to join the fight for NSW rate payers.
What is TAPP policy on this issue?
or rail sell offs?
How would TAPP stop rising fuel prices as you charge the federals with in another thread?
What are the policy's of your party? how many members have you? what would you do about maternity leave? baby bonus? welfare? education?

The thread deserves better it is of great importance just what will happen to our power in NSW.
My views are not based on jobs not on union power but on the health and welfare of power users and our state.
Big industry's call on governments for cheaper power deals to bring them here or to keep them here.
How can a privately owned power grid do those deals? why should they?
In ten years after a sale how much worse will the service be?
How long will it be to repair lines after storms?
Is the state better for selling?
Now for the ALP what future NSW?
Can anyone justify the over turning of state conference?
The continuing massive threats being put on members of this Parliament by a few in the house?
Can my ALP truly think it will wash away?
That we will forget the total betrayal of our party by a few? that no damage has been done?
Last but not a little thing the weakness lack of leadership of the NSW Liberals must be addressed, even now they doubt even them selves they can win the next election look like headless chooks.
Who among us knows for sure we can bank on our states future power under either party?

The Medea has gone quite the bloke who owns the NSW ALP, no good calling him premier he is obviously the owner is keeping his head down.
Some of my movements fellow travelers are snickering at my thoughts but this is important stuff.
Threats more at home in a communist Parliament of the 1960,s than one in Australia are being made.
To? members of the ALP in the house by ? well we know who.
Can anyone think it will just go away?
By August or not much further down the track it will be a done deal.
NSW the driving force behind the ALP will betray its members some one from another country will be well on the way to owning our power.
Bills will be higher service lower and a party state branch in ashes.
Who would want to go to conference? why?
This year is historic it is the DLP Simon Crean , Mark Latham heaped on one another.
The pure dishonesty of my party's state leadership is tragic, our party's fate?
Those who felt the betrayal most will be left to clean up while those who did the betrayal leave for high paid jobs.
All my life I have watched the few who betrayed my party with great distaste but I never dreamed I would see it done to so many by so few.