Love your work there steel - when a man questions god's genocide, naturally, it's the man who is being evil.
Though, by now I'm sure you've noted, that it's rigged. Regardless of what happens, god is always good, and anything that isn't good can be laid at the feet of man.

Particularly mischievous doubters, like us. No doubt god's planning more genocide for us? Or was the whole crucifixion thing, a bit of a mid-life crisis, and does He not get up to those hi-jinx anymore?

It would explain why all the wacky mythical stories don't seem to happen anymore, (now that the species is capable of actually recording and explaining these things, though don't tell gibo that, he still thinks we're grappling with demons).

Anyhow... back to the topic - well said Fractelle. Both genders have sexual urges, but it's always up to us to control them. I find it interesting that it's the same people who are cheesed off about porn who seem to be on about these dress issues.

The real question is whether it really does come from this mindset that reduces the responsibility of male actions in response to what women wear.

What's particularly interesting, is that these notions of what is 'scantily clad' are in no way universal.

Consider this - in certain African tribes, the women dress in a topless manner. The result, is that their breasts have been de-sexualised. They're part of the norm - there certainly isn't all this handwringing over what they should and shouldn't be wearing, and whilst you can point to different courtship rituals, there are a plethora of examples I can point to, where reducing women's dress results in de-sexualisation.

Once upon a time in European society, bare ankles were considered to be pornographic. This de-sexualisation, is quite the opposite of the sexual hangups associated with conservative versions of Christianity, who seem to approach the issue from some kind of absolutist standpoint, as if this same discussion hasn't been had time and time again in the past, without the dire consequences associated with the changes they predict.

BD,

To begin with "mild scolding" is an oxymoron. The verb "to scold" means to reprimand or criticize harshly.

So, o.k., you want me to take seriously such statements as: - "Do you think designers should be more discrete?" O.k. My answer is No. They are varied enough already for my liking, thank you.

"A male Christian friends of mine also has trouble in shopping centres with all of the boosums[sic] hanging out and with dresses halfway up the backside."

"...slinky gym gear also gives me problems."

""I remember as a young man...feeling [resentment] at times because of the clothing girls wore. A sort of left out feeling."

Are these the "serious social issues" of which you speak Boaz? The private difficulties of an elderly born again Christian and his friend with their own suppressed sexuality which, it appears, is somewhat in doubt if the last quote is to be taken at face value.

Actually the above comments disturbed me greatly. I saw in them reflections of an unwholesome side of christianity. I saw reverberations for the whole of society. I could indeed take them seriously and the resultant polemic would be blistering, contentious, and extremely upsetting and hurtful to the simple soul who uttered them. I chose rather to lighten up a little simply because I found not just the remarks, but what they represented, to be symptomatic of much of the offensiveness encountered in society.

Thankfully I didn't embark upon such an over-the-top reaction and the last couple of posts have admirably expressed a more rational approach with which I agree wholeheartedly

It is not your place to "scold" me. I am neither an erring child nor your subordinate. We disagree. Profoundly. But do not presume to take the higher ground because of this. You stated once that God was on your side - unlike the devout, humble and committed Christian who considers themselves rather to be on the side of God.

Do not let this cause you to feel that you are also his mouthpiece.

ps. and I STILL sit in the back of the bus.

Fractelle, very well said.

Steel, whilst some of the same pressures exist for men I'm not convinced that they are equal for men in regard to clothing. If you want to suggest that on balance men face equivalent pressures in other area's I'll be with you all the way but I really don't think mens appearance has yet become the same issue that it is for women.

To all -
Thinking about this discussion and Fractelle's post it occurs to me that there is part of this which is not so clear. The impact on teenagers and younger.

I'd happily rephrase a part of Fractelle's excellent post for women concerned about social pressure and appearances

"Now it is time for women to become the captains of their own lives, to learn a level of independence for themselves. Taking responsibility for your own choices is an act of maturity and autonomy."

Neither that or the original version seem completely appropriate when we consider the personal or social pressures facing teenagers and youngers. The issues will be harder for them than for adults as they deal with the changes occuring in their lives.

I tend to the view that the best way to help teenagers with the struggles they will face is to teach and model healthy attitudes to sexuality and the body rather than perpetuating guilt and shame.

Elderly christains clinging to a flawed morality deserve no sympathy if their choices cause them problems in the real world. If their god has not transformed their minds by now then it's time for them to accept that what they believe is wrong and change their minds themselves.

R0bert

Thanks R0bert

I agree with your points.

Women are made to feel ashamed of their bodies, and men are made to feeling guilty for having normal desires..... and for that matter, vice versa. And the more you feel that sex is somehow 'dirty' the more problematic it becomes. Yes, indeed, both men and women do need to be captains of their own sexuality. But I do think that too many men are stuck in the past (me Tarzan, you Jane), while women have started learning but not really getting it quite right (Paris Hilton?)

The best way for young people to deal with the hormonal rollercoaster that is sexual awakening, is not through pious self righteous denial of our natural selves. It is through acceptance of who we are - sexual beings.

TRTL is correct in pointing out that the sexual perception of women's breasts is just a state of mind - in societies where bare breasts are common place they are not regarded with the 'sturm und drang' as in our culture.

And the usual religious suspects would have women covering and cowering and men feeling ashamed.

The following is a link to a website that takes the entire judgement on women's dress to an extreme I would not have imagined in our Western culture. Sisters our Levis make us sluts AND Lezzos - who'da thunk it? (and of course that feminists are hell-bent on world domination - but Steel knew that already) this site is hilarious:

http://www.savethemales.ca/

First apologies to all who don't like bible verses being quoted on OLO. I think in the context of this discussion it's worth it.

Gibo (and other "bible believing christians") I've just remembered that Jesus gave a specific command for the very problem you are facing.

The command is repeated so apparently god wants you to pay attention.

- Matthew 5:29 http://biblebrowser.com/matthew/5-29.htm
- Matthew 18:9 http://biblecc.com/matthew/18-9.htm
- Mark 9:47 http://bible.cc/mark/9-47.htm

Strangly enough Jesus does not command or encourage you to try and force others to change. Rather deal with what's in yourself that's the problem.

R0bert

Fractelle - went onto the site and for a moment was totally dislocated - thought I'd had a Back to the Future type experience. Oh I do hope Steel links in: he can wallow about to his hearts content.