To days news is the truth unions lost 5% of membership last year the question is why?
Workchoices saw many in jobs the union could no longer represent them in but the decline is world wide and long term.
Is it the start of the end of unions?
It in my view is the beginning of a new unionism stronger smaller but just maybe more Representative.
It is my view yes I am a union official, service not recruitment comes first for unions.
Some will tell me I am lost in a world of my own but the once twice yearly visit to each work place is no longer the way.
Unions are challenged and the battle is not won or lost but it is yet to be fought the results will not be known for a generation.
Smaller cheaper but better unions are going to be the outcome.
You can recruit shoppers to a shop but if it has nothing to sell they will not stay.
Unions need to drop the idea that without issues they have nothing to offer workplace insurance is our best tool not needless war.
Unions use brand just like any item for sale and some brands are not selling .
I hope new directions are on the agenda not looking for the lights on the hill past ones.
A $2 a week levee for one single purpose members welfare could put millions in the bank and officials could put the raffle tickets away as that single purpose fund put cash in the hands of people in trouble.
Yes Unions are in decline yes efforts must be made to bring them into modern times but with youthful leadership and directions they will be around for a very long time.

Who would support unions today but a few. Labor seems to have moved away from any great desire to get too close to them. Us older folk remember a time when unions had too much power. Strikes were everywhere in the 70's. They have mostly already gone underground, havent they? Their time has passed. It went with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall. Unions and communism to me seemed little different, one merging with the other for ages. Both were and are ungodly and dont want much to do with God. Thats a sign that they will decline. What isnt of God... wont remain. The Bible makes that clear; as does the testimony of the eye witness to a declining civilisation. The eye witness sees it all, if he looks closely at change.

Belly
If the trade unions are really in decline I hope they are replaced by another type of independent employee representative body - it is important that employees have an advocate in the workforce.

In my experience, some trade unions tend to become too focussed on politics and winning elections rather than their grass roots membership. I don't think unions will disappear but for unions to grow they have to get their priorities right and work to protect the interests of their members, preferably in partnership with employers (although recognising that this is not always possible).

Union membership is probably declining because the working class has declined and some skilled workers are now earning reasonable money - we have as a whole become more middle class. WorkChoices also reduced the power of unions which I am sure affected membership.

Perhaps unions need to re-invent themselves to face some of the challenges of our modern world and realise that once you lose the faith of the membership it is hard to win back.

Dear Belly,

I'm sure Workchoices had an effect on union membership.

However, I agree with you - unions will be around for a very long time - for as long as employees need representation in the workforce.

And unions will adapt and change - they've always done so in the past and they will continue to do so in the future.

pelican, "In my experience, some trade unions tend to become too focussed on politics and winning elections rather than their grass roots membership" - spot on.

The needs of the ALP all to often triumph over the needs of the members.

Also I think to much of the public face of the union movement is grounded in the conflicts of england rather than in australian workplaces. Still plenty of union types talking about Torries which is a bit of a give away.

R0bert

Belly, 5% down. Why?

The old class war is dead.
Workcover and OH&S have made it a little harder for unions to muscle their way on site. Unions are now a post incident, opportunistic visitor.
Unionism invalidates a young mans sense of indestructibility.
Current law restricts right of entry for union officials on site to spread their influence.
It's a (labour) sellers market.
Realisation that not even the ALP can tolerate pattern bargaining in small business.
People come to work to work now Bell, the old adversarial days are gone. As I said, 'if you don't want to work with the bludger, you get rid of him, why wait for me to sack him.'

The future?
In small business? Zero.
Still purchase in larger businesses where it suits to deal with representatives of a larger group and not the many.

The old days gone forever Belly.

Dear Pelican
your suggestion about another 'employee representative body' is well intended of course, but don't you think it kind of just perpetuates the 'them/us' ism of yesteryear?

In my opinion we need something like an Industrial SENATE.. where representatives from all sides are there in equal numbers, and the goal is to achieve a better outcome for the whole company rather than just pit one side against another. A kind of group ombudsman.

What is the union members density world wide and what in Australia?
Union Density
Australia 20.0% 2006
United Kingdom 28.4% 2006
Canada 29.7% 2006
Greece 30.0% 2007
Romania 30.0 % 2005
Italy 33.7 % 2003
Austria 40.0% 2006
Norway 53.0% 2004
Belgium 53.0% 2006
Malta 59.0% 2005
Finland 74.1% 2003
Sweden 78.0% 2006
Denmark 80.0% 2005
Iceland 88.0% 2006
Why the Australian Union Movement is so weak and become weaken? Can it become stronger? Of cause with many ways!
Is the trade Union in decline with both men and women ?
Is the trade Union in decline with both blue-collar and white-collar?
is the trade union in decline with local and migrants?

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Apart from Gibo each post added too the debate thanks, I could compare our numbers to Church goers but it is not about that.
Yes issues have been used to start wars but a big change is on the way.
I no longer think unions are best served by falling at the feet of its child the ALP.
Howard made it a must but the future?
I have no doubts unions will not die, if they live in todays high wages low unemployment conditions how will they be if we have a true recession?
We however must get in the game.
Better training and selection for officials.
Less overheads maybe less fees.
Cultivate the ability to talk to both sides of politics and work with them.
What negotiator walks into a room and ignores one side of a debate?
Some unions are growing it is true!~
The greatest loss is in extremist unions how can they think workers want IR WAR?
Many may not like it but union are community based donations are heavy and to such as womens refuges hospital clowns you name it members money gives gifts , just maybe we should not spend so freely without asking.
If a members community chest donation by those who wish too was put in place money could come from that not members funds.
If we take the challenge we will grow better stronger and in time bigger.
If not? do not bury us yet but change is not a threat but a promise.
One day yesterday in fact one issue a boss from one of our very biggest construction giants told me our union helmet sticker had to go.

It weakened the helmet he said and put pressure on non unionists to join?
his induction sticker sits on every helmet .
Both stay , see a thousand little things every day not sabotaging the workplace.
Oh we questioned why he insisted men work on Anzac day weekend a banked RDO planned 2 years ago lock down we lost some march in memory other march in mud and unions are bad

I joined a workplace union a few years ago, at the urging of a work colleague. When management wanted to put the workplace cleaning jobs out for tender, we all had a meeting and decided to stike if the tender went ahead. Nobody at the meeting mentioned that the cleaners we had were terrible at their jobs and provided very poor value for money for the firm. So I soon after that left the union.

To me that really summed up unionism (maybe not all unions, maybe some are better than others) - their role seems to be about protecting their existing members at all costs and hang the consequences.

I dare say that an economist would tell you that unions have much the same effect as taxes - introduce inefficiencies into the system, distort outcomes and involve a transfer of benefits from one group to another.

Countryboy,

Thank You. A fair comment.

I was speaking the other day with a Hungry Jacks Manager.

He described what you have to do if someone doesnt want work but wants the wages.

They have to spend up to six grand on= wait for it councling!

Then there has to be some sort of mutual 'agreement' $ if they are to leave.-

Remember the days when people did an honest days work for a honest days pay. Gone forever.

Some of these peoples attitudes were so bad that major companies went off shore.

Make no mistake this country is in a mess exporting all its raw materials 'before value adding' which of course employs its people and keeps the county going.

I might add that is the only reason why they take these poor creatures alive that Kevin Rudd is in full support of.

It wasnt always like that. No indeed his party told a completly different story- pre election. In fact they simply lied.

Trade Unions in Decline?

Well, if so -maybe the public have all read OLO- :)

No I dont think they will decline. I think they will breed like rats in a dark place while keeping us in the dark.

4 Corners programe on Monday night pretty much told it as it is re the unions and their dirty tricks.

Dirty, Sexy Money
Reporter: Sarah Ferguson
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2008/s2214216.htm

Broadcast: 14/04/2008

When sordid tales of sex and money and development deals spilled out of the Wollongong anti-corruption hearings, Labor luminaries dashed for cover.

They rejected any stain of corruption and, if voters remained sceptical, vowed to reform political donations laws at federal and NSW level.

But the damage was done. Wollongong laid bare the cosy relationships between developers and a NSW Labor machine that long ago had mastered the system of fundraising.

"Many of these people don't see a light on the hill any more," one disillusioned Labor man tells Four Corners. "They see a 200-lot subdivision."

Belly
You wrote ''The greatest loss is in extremist unions how can they think workers want IR WAR?''
Can you give more details about them? Which are the extremist Unions?
The Australian or better the Anglo Saxon model of Unionism has no future. The statistics prove it very easy. In USA the Density is 9% ! It is seemed there are many conservatives and nationalists in Australian Union movement.
The Australian Union movement stand on the white collars and underestimate the blue collars, women and migrants.
World wide the strong unions stands on blue collars, on women and in countries with many migrants on them. If we check the statistics from the union movement world wide we will see that the members of white collars reduced and increased the members from blue collars, you will see that the new members come mainly from women blue collars. For example in Sweden, trade union density among female blue-collar workers increased by 6.1 percentage points, compared with an increase of 2.2 points for their male colleagues
I DISAGREE WITH THE ACTU ON MANY ISSUES AND IF THEY CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE BLUE COLLARS, WOMEN AND MIGRANTS, THEN THEY WILL DESTROY THE AUSTRALIAN UNION MOVEMENT.
Of cause I am member of the union movement but I am not happy with it.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Hi David
Look in a perfect world I would agree with you. The AIRC is like the 'industrial Senate' you propose. A forum where all parties could meet with a neutral mediator to determine fair wages and conditions openly and transparently is a worthy ideal but remember workers do not have access to the same resources that employers might - this is where a good union rep can make a difference because they are there to protect the interest of their members. Would this 'Senate' also set the salaries for senior executives and CEOs? :)

Business also belong to unions that act in their interests such as the Business Council of Australia and the various Chambers of Commerce. ie. lobby groups that advocate on behalf of their members. And believe me they do some powerful LOBBYING and have greater access to government (particularly under Howard) than any union I know of.

However, we are not a perfect world and employers are not always fair. Historically, employers have held most of the power in the worker/boss relationship and the only power a worker had was withdrawal of labour (now illegal).

Still looking historically, movements like unionism are not borne out of nothing, it is because of the woeful conditions workers in some industries found themselves eg.very low wages, unsafe working conditions, unreasonably long working hours and child labour.

Conditions today are better largely due to the efforts of unions. Unions, like any organisation of power, have not always behaved with integrity. Neither has business if we are talking about corruption, bribery and lack of ethics. White collar crime is not any less a crime because it is perpetrated by the big end of town.

Bottom line is business is important because it provides jobs but the importance of labour is often undervalued. A business is in it to make a profit but these days a profit is not enough and obscene profits at the expense of fair play just doesn't cut it if we are trying to achieve a win-win situation for both employee and employer.

Some reasons for decline:

1. Trade Unions are an extension of the Labor Party and half the community vote for the OTHER party.

2. Unions at the ground level are often unwilling to represent people, one of their famous "excuses" is "The person you are complaining about is also a Union member so we can't get involved". Unfortunately,most workplace disputes involve a co-worker rather than a Boss.!!

3. Unions are seen as a stepping stone for Labor Party aspirants and our money is simply funding their own aspirations.

4. They are poor at returning calls, following up issues and are a law unto themselves. Who monitors their performance?

Country boy your view on taxes is so strange I need not address your idea of unionism.
But I will I have no defense of bad union actions they happen, yes sometimes some unions act for the wrong reasons.
remember my comment about issues.
PALE your post not unlike most of yours is aimed at hurting me not the issues getting cheap shots at Rudd And your hobby horse of live exports.
Question to you , please do you truly think any one takes anything your group says seriously?
AS mate you are indeed an ambassador for migrants, just maybe you could be a bit more inclusive.
I say this is one country and in My view I will fight to see your group are treated fairly but you find demons in my country I do not.
The ideas some hold about unions are wrong, some unions are to blame.
There is a difference and for more inclusive unions a future.
No changing history unions once had to be from the very left to get results.
We have moved on yet some try to force a radical movement on very much non radical workers like Labor followed the voters and won.
Unions must follow the members or die.

To show the other face of unionism nothing else share my day yesterday.
An hour twenty minutes drive for 7.50 visit with IR manager , talks about Key performance indicators for project by her invitation.
We both gave ground left knowing it would take more visits.
phone rings female traveled 3 hours to big city not paid travel another threated with death by workmate issues fixed.
3 meal room visit all one subject can any one get 100% if work is best under KPI s?
Further meeting this morning.
Phone call from boss, last night a traffic controller on night shift got bashed by 3 persons in a car will I go and find out details?
Doesn't happen every day but I went home 11 pm.
anyone see industrial sabotage there?
Do you know that last boss was so happy to see a foolish bloke turn up who cared?
unions need not be an enemy In fact are nothing less than workplace insurance and you could never believe how many things unions do that are asked for by both boss and members

Belly, if you think I have a strange opinion of taxes, then your knowledge of rudimentary economics must be missing.

Taxes involve a transfer of economic benefit from one party to another. End of story.

Excellent post there Pelican.

You have shown why we still need unions as much as we ever did.

Cheers

palimpsest
You make a big mistake. Now we need the Unions more than in the past as neo conservatives, and corporations attack aggressively on labors rights, as the international environment becomes more dangerous for labors rights, cheap important products close the local industries, big industries move to undeveloped countries with cheap wages and not limits on their activities,as more people will live much more years adding huge costs to labors, as the costs of (oil is going to finish) power go up, and production costs go up, as the climate change has started to create many kinds of problems on our planet, as new technologies could create new standards and values, living back labors and our brothers from undeveloped countries.
NOW WE(LABORS) MUST CREATE A STRONG UNION MOVEMENT BUT DIFFERENT FROM THE CURRENT AND WITHOUT VISIONS MOVEMENT. The old good days for the Unions of the developed countries past for ever, NOW THE UNION MOVEMENT MUST LEARN TO SWIM IN THE INTERNATIONAL ENVIRONMENT, IN AN ENVIRONMENT NOT VERY FRIENDLY AND WITH MANY SMALL LOCAL CONFLICTS.
The new union movement needs high IQ well educated labor fighters ready to carry their cross to labor's Golgotha.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

Antonius S. 2 points. Protection from unfettered capitalism, yes; Protectionism, no. I don't see my kids and their friends ever buying the Collectivist ideal, they've far too much self belief.

Belly, I can see one opening for the Unions in Construction- that of cheap providers of training for tickets- what the Unions then do depends on their ability to provide what their members want.

Elsewise Belly, perhaps Rudds success has hastened the fall in union membership- people now think that they are 'protected'? 90,000pa equals 1800/week equals 360/day!

Belly

You would think that. You always do. This is the problem.
I ask you to click on here and think about your support for this trade.

http://www.handlewithcare.tv/au/index.asp

Now as far as doing something to bring migrants in belly= No it isnt us who could be anbassitors for this- It is you.

The old ALP needs to stand up before its gone.

I dont see why my pointing out something about ALP or Rudd should hurt you personally. After all hes not your brother.

We are simply doing our job and I told you Howard copped worse.

However Belly I wont back down from what I know personally.

I am sincerly sorry if our comments cause you personal distress hopwever have you ever once listended to them and considered maybe in regards we know best.

I can tell you ALP operate differently from Howard. I can tell you this from personal expereice .

For god sake look at those pictures and believe me we along with RSPCA have much worse- and ask yourself is it asking too much to just kill these creatures here.

We need migrants to come and work in abattoirs .

It is the only trade in this country to have special conditions put on it making it impossible pretty much to get the migrants in.

Now no migrants no vaule adding for raw material= Less need for unions on work sites.

You could stand up for the migrants who are desperate to come here to work.

Dont fall for the tricks of being told these peoople are underpaid- thats just politics talking belly.

They get three times more - pluss than they would back home.

Thats why they want to come and work.

This is the truth!

PALE I will not continue to talk to you on side issues , your task in convincing the world of your groups worth is harder than mine in defending unions.
Tomorrows unions indeed todays must train officials nation wide one set of rules one way of working.
It is not good enough to have the best delegates or even mates get the job.
Union like any business must have the best in those jobs, failures should be removed ASAP lost members are forever.
To let delegates who use the system for self advancement remain in place betrays unionism and members.
A great many of todays IR managers and OHand S leaders are ex union officials.
Some flexibility in the wages officials are paid must come, it is near weekly that offers to jump ship come to the best.
Fee base is in place to charge less to casuals, in fact the worst affected and most growing number in construction, yet we do not use it?
Casual charges for casuals , understanding of the very real and horrible life they lead will grow numbers.
First target is complex enough not grow numbers but face the changing world and find new ways to service membership.
Unions will survive , they will thrive, some of them.
The first in an industry to be brave enough to cut fees and take service to a higher level will be the one to stay alive.
I a life long member of the ALP think unions will gain more from being at arms length from the party we gave birth to.
They are having no problems do just that to us.
No plea to become more radical but more inclusive if our claims are just conservative governments may be no harder to deal with than our runaway child the ALP.

I need to address a few issues AS mate you seem truly to find more wrong than right with my country indeed it is now your country too .
Do many understand union member ship is about daily issues? like the big brand salad shop that insists young girls work unpaid 1 hour a day cutting that days salad rolls?
Or that married woman I spoke of in another thread who now works for $5 an hour in a grocery shop and some out of date goods?
If we left the Field would it get better or worse?
ACTU in my view firmly held defended forever evidence unions have much room for improvement!
The elected head was miss use of union power, just to show one union could walk over its members and all unions.
The best candidate stood out a lone figure unchallenged Robo the head of unions NSW yet miss use of members power by a few continues?
It is clear RObert you see a union movement that in my view does not exist, yes we have unions even now that import British ideas even leadership but they are in decline and I have no problems in saying not to my taste.
Look to our best not the worst in judging us future prime minister Bill Shorten like some current leadership of his union are the real face of Australian unions not grumpy men with old dead ideals.
Unions there is a difference and I am proud of that.

Belly said

Question to you ,

AS mate you are indeed an ambassador for migrants, ...

Pale answered belly

belly
PALE I will not continue to talk to you on side issues ,...
Pale comments

Belly YOU asked a question

Belly said
Pale I will not contiune to talk of side issues.

Pale reponds

belly well, dont ASK the question in the first place

The link we put up in answering your question was not ours but the RSPCA

If you had one once of deceny in your body you would be horrified by what the rspca has presented to Rudd and his Government.

You are working against your own kind the AMIUE who for years have been complaining of jobs taken off sure and barbaric cruelty.


What I am saying is bring in the workers with trade skills. Bring in the migrants that can work. We have for many years supported AMIEU unlike yourself.

You dont support your own people.

This is the real problem with unions turning on each other.

HERE IS WHAT UNIONS SAY TO KEVIN RUD

These are "real men" who stand up not suck up.

http://wa.amieu.asn.au/

"The Truth About Live Exports - for more information click here..........Why Life Exports are Wrong "



More Deception from a Prime Minister who is only concerned about one job -HIS!!

The Rudd Government must render the Workchoice legislation to the By Products of Australian history!

Click on this link for for what it really means........ http://www.rightsatwork.com.au/factmay7



AMIEU members at November 15th Protest Rally

The AMIEU (WA Branch) joined hundreds of thousands of workers throughout Australia, in the first of many actions, designed to focus public attention on ....


Live Exports - what the papers are saying!

Interested in seeing how the press are reporting this disgusting trade?
Real men stand up like AMIUE union members for the same reason.

We have migrants coming into this country that need work.

We need them to feed us. We require skilled labour in the regional areas to keep this country going.

Rudd wants to contiune the coruption

Shame




http://www.animalsaustralia.org/features/because_this_is_wrong/email.htm

PALE can you please consider that your constant diverting threads is if not against forum rules is rude?
Unions are in decline to say it is not true is blindness, to put all the blame on workchoices untrue and unwise.
However this point in time has been coming for some time , the need for change is real.
It however is full of promise for the future not threats, constant improvement is like that.
I do not favor unions being in business just to make money so training? yes if it benefits members.
More benefits can come from training officials and delegates for the challenges of modern unionism.

Belly said

PALE can you please consider that your constant diverting threads are if not against forum rules is rude?

PALE replies

Belly
I swear your getting worse, instead of better. The title of this thread is=

Trade Unions in Decline?

Rude? - Belly its rude not to answer when someone asks our question- you did ask a question – we answered-
What’s the problem now?

Our answer went on to discuss the AMIEU which the last time I looked is a union.
Our answer to your comments below is well within topic=

Belly said
I hope new directions are on the agenda not looking for the lights on the hill past ones.

Pale replied
We have migrants coming into this country that need work.

We need them to feed us. We require skilled labor in the regional areas to keep this country going.

http://www.amieu.asn.au/pages.php?recid=120
The People you see here agree. They also are people who work with us. How dare you say we have no place posting in a thread about unions?
Not only do I agree with the AMIEU I have a duty to support them.
They host our petition and campaign with us shoulder to shoulder.

We don’t support parties belly just good people and policies.
Thats how you test the men from the boys.
Again I am sorry if you have a problem with people speaking the truth. However that’s what OLO is for to post differences of opinions.
Now as the AMIEU will tell you there isn’t much that exporting our raw materials doesn’t effect in Australia.
We say to the Minister of immigration and Rudd for god sake opens the Abattoirs and factories too.

The debate was one we could have got into , most have an opinion about unions.
It was not about live animal exports or one party or the other.
Briefly we spoke about Unions and of the meat workers fight to keep jobs in this country.
A very left wing union in my view I can understand the reasons they want to do so.
I could debate the issue at length can we Australians ever export only meat not animals?
It would be unhelpful in a debate that asks are unions viable still? are they in decline?
PALE understands I am uninterested in debate with that group, have let my self slip yet again into dangerous ground.
Rational debate is not possible between us.
I have seen threads die early because we got of subject and ask please those who post as PALE consider when do you think I asked a question of you?
Each of us has the right to think as we wish and for some this forum is a Chance to discus important issues I willingly buy into debate about unions/Labor/ politics but surely not in threads about other issues?
I do not question others rights to disagree with me.
But my view that live exports are not the all important issue PALE implies sees insults rather than debate.
Unions and their future are in flux hiding our heads will not do it workchoices only highlighted the fact change is the future path.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/content/2006/s1930247.htm
Abattoir operators reject skilled labour agreement
By Skye Shannon

Tuesday, 22/05/2007

There've been further developments on a deal that was struck last week between state and federal governments to import overseas skilled abattoir workers.

West Australian abattoir operators say they're disgusted with the final reading of the agreement.

Collectively the industry will refuse to accept the Federal Government's final offer which has been in negotiation for 10 months.

Merv D'Arcy of the Australian Meat Industry Council says abattoirs can't afford to adhere to the proposed requirements.

"The majority of processors involved in yesterday's discussions rejected the document. Whilst we have said it's still open to anyone to use it, that's their prerogative."

"For both ministers to come out and say they're releasing this without any prior consultation before the release, it just bewilders industry."

"It's absolutely disgusting because the labour agreement's been forced upon us and yet other sectors of industry have been allowed to use the 457 visa application and still are and have enjoyed it."

"An overseas worker coming in here under this labour agreement :one, the employer has to pay his medical insurance, if he brings his family over he has to pay the cost of the family coming over, he has to pay the family's medical insurance costs, he has to pay the children's school fees, now an Australian doesn't have that benefit."

In this report: Merv D'Arcy, Australian Meat Industry Council of Western Australia.

http://www.amieu.asn.au/pages.php?recid=81&hl=live%20exports

The Editor

Townsville Bulletin

Fax No. 4722 4559


Dear Editor,



As elected representative for the AMIEU members in Nth Queensland, I would like to make a couple of points concerning live cattle exports in Townsville.



Readers may be unaware that the number of cattle exported from the Port of Townsville has decreased enormously during the past 12 months. This has been caused by an increase in the value of the Australian dollar and also because of higher prices paid by Japan and the USA for our boxed beef.



Because meatworks have been receiving higher returns for their product they have been consistently outbidding live exporters for available cattle. This has seen a record kill at AMH Stuart and historically low live exports from Townsville Port.



Now is a good time to examine the impact of low levels of live export and high beef processing on the community in Townsville.



The season at AMH Stuart started on the same 840 per day kill as last year but was moved up to a 903 kill due to extra cattle being available which created more than 40 extra jobs at the meatworks. The company also worked on two public holidays, which has rarely happened in the past, and paid the workers at penalty rates for the extra production. These two extra production days meant more than $320,000 in wages was injected into the Townsville community.



Had live exports continued at the rate of previous years, this would not have been the case.



To be contiuned

Continued Letter from Union
After a longer season than was originally predicted the meatworks is now winding down and will probably be closed for at least 6 weeks. It will close because the meatworks cannot source any more stock. They are not closing because they are short of workers or orders to fill. They are closing because they can’t get cattle and it is a fact that they would have closed earlier if live exports had of continued this year at the same levels as last year.

To Be Contiuned.

The reduction in live export this year has definitely seen an increase in jobs and economic income for Townsville and needs to be acknowledged as a positive thing for the Townsville community.



Incidentally, remember how we were told the Asians could only buy their meat freshly slaughtered in 'wet markets'. We were told by graziers, live exporters and politicians that Asian countries had no refrigeration in their homes and shops so they could not accept frozen or chilled beef from Australia…only live cattle.



However it is interesting to note that although Australia is not sending many live cattle they haven't stopped eating meat in these countries. Now that Australian cattle are not available, they are eating frozen beef from South America and India. The fact that it isn't live doesn't seem to be a problem.



The real reason they imported our cattle live is so they could fatten, value-add and slaughter them over there and retain the by-products and jobs in their own countries.



Smart, aren't they?



Yours sincerely,



Russell Carr

Northern Branch Organiser

A.M.I.E.U.

It seems quite obvious why unions are in decline and as why pale has kept saying.

Why send live animals overseas when we can have the jobs and the economical benifits that go with it.

It also makes a point about the union wanting the live export gone for australian jobs.

Now you might be fighting for those who work in the corner shop but then lets look at FP and them closing down shop as it is profit and uneconomical for them to keep operating here.

I also noticed that someone said it was wrong to place blame and also this included workchoices.

Was it not said from those here that work choices was bad, but now seems that some things that where said were untrue or just labor union spin.

So we know the unions and labor were heading for agreements that gave the worker the choice and this also included without unions help or looking over the shoulder so in all as they keep on saying that what howard did with the economy was due to keating policy.

Workchoices was also keating policy but didnt come about as the people were fed up with the recession we had to have.

The Nsw electricity sell off where are the unions. Is it not the workers who pay these people to represent them. No they are there for the business and the worker just gets suckered.

Oh by the way i had said lock in home loans well I did and i am already benefiting.

Stuart Ulrich

The strange claim that Paul Keiting supported or wanted workchoices is further evidence some do not understand the subject.
It comes from miss understanding the issue, PK in fact wanted GST, and maybe that leads to the mistake?
During the federal election in a seat we know of here in this forum signs warned voters to remember Witlams 17% interest rates? surely not? surely that was Paul?
OLO is in place as a place we can talk and debate issues.
It serves that purpose well.
Every one gets to have a say but can we debate? why have rules that are not obeyed?
I protest here about my self and understand it is human nature to push ones own barrow but surely this thread is no longer about its starting direction?
In a way we have been having our own 20/20 summit here from day one, and for many it is the only forum our voice can be heard in.
My love of my movements Labor and union are known.
My understanding both must grow, continue to improve is showing in my posts.
TAPP tells us both are wrong and that conservative Australia is too? what direction then mate do you want us to take?
Animal cruelty live exports growing meat exports and a self assurance I do not share drive those who are PALE to put far more value on their thoughts and far less on those they oppose a recipe for being twice beaten.
How do we debate issues without deliberately getting of subject? can we? is it better we do?
Is my defense of the thread as bad a sin as others? maybe yes I should just except that is the way it is we can debate very little without such rule breaking.

As you can see pale gave facts that a union said stop exports of live animals, but hey can labor and the other unions stand up and fight for that.

No

So when they stand up and fight for the workers and not the alp again then maybe the unions will gain some respect from some.

But what about Heiner, this has union all over the hiding of what happened and does this make for good unions No.

This says where unions allegiance is and it isnt the worker.

The Keating program for “ongoing reform” was set out in his “One Nation” statement issued on February 26 1992. Taking over many of the measures advocated in Fightback, One Nation’s goal was to drive up productivity and destroy conditions—won over decades—through enterprise agreements.

Hello Stuart
It good to see someone else other than us pointing out the utter unfairness and whats clearly political infearance which effects every person in Australia. Remembering we all pay taxes to support our raw materials being shipped out along with our nations future jobs.
Belly has a problem seperating debating facts and personal attacks.
On onther thread for eg he has put to us an offer If I call recall it correctly he said =

"PALE lets have a thread about live exports , while I may post there I undertake not to put unionism or Labor politics in it.
I will make no race related comments about anyone and talk only about why live animal exports will always be a part of Australian farming deal?"
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 20 April 2008 7:33:15 AM

Doesnt he know back then unions were 60% of the reason they statrted sending these poor creatures alive? Its been the biggest blow to Australia and we are going to see the full results in thenext four toten years if we dont wake up now and give these jobs back to Australia regional areas.

Know knowing how ALP come into it and of course the AMIUE being intructed to back off live Exports it does make it a bit hard to be only able to debate half of the issue.
However I have told Belly - Ok if it makes you happy.
The problem I think with Belly is he has no understanding of why the Governments support a small group of people within this cruel industry.
Remember somewhere in all of this our first reasonsibilty is to common deceny and human treatment of Animals.
We are not extreme as you call us or racist as you call us.

The RSPCA have just launced a protest at ALPs attitude to the cruel live exports however these industries who donate heavily to political parties also think they are immune to listening to the Animal Welfare authorites world wide. Stuart Pls Take a look at this RSPCA release=
http://www.handlewithcare.tv/au/index.asp
btw Good to see you back.

That signals the end of open debate on this issue in this thread at least.
It shouts about some not having the ability to understand the issue.
First week next month my voice and the voice of every union will scream at this[NSW] state leader at the ALP state conference.
We will tell him he has no mandate to sell our power, those who have an understanding of politics, even a very small knowledge know unions are sick of the man.
I am hugely amused at the thought it is claimed I have no understanding!
So ends another thread no one should be surprised it is not a rare event.

Well Belly the discussion was trade unions in decline.

what was given reasons why wether you like it or not.

So now you can go off and have a cry and have another read and you will find the lack of unions ability to stand and fight for the workers.

Stuart Ulrich

Stu thanks for caring about Australia.

Belly

While your voice is speaking out about whatever. Remember the people who lost their jobs and homes because of the closure of our Australian Abattoirs.
Remember its the only industry that has been singled out by this for force the owners of these struggling business to provide more than even ordinary Australians get working in any other industry.
If we can speak out why cant you?
This is totally unfair for the owners of these establishments 'your fellow Australians'

Its also unfair on just 'one particular union' to tell them they must back off.

You know it but like always you act as one of them.

A true man regardless or political parties stands up to such injustice.

If you are an example of how your lot stand up for others God help this country and our sisters and brothers.

Its always the same with you if you cant debate the issues. You run calling screaming are harressing you, we are extreme, we are wrong, we are taking over your threads, we are old ,and stupid ,lack any education, cant spell, we are racist, and much more.

We are none of those things .

We are a simple group of people who work for no payment that have banned together supporting the RSPCA and other world wide Animal Welfare Authorities and fighting for jobs for Australian`s.
We are fighting to allow skilled migrants in because Australia needs them in regional areas.

Truth is you dont want to debate us because we always prove you wrong.

No we dont dislike you belly as you are always claiming.

We simple have a job to do and you we are not blaming.

Perhaps Stu you have a moment to view =

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1667&page=0


If I had a dollar for Everytime! Belly said.=

oh, I must leave this thread now because of pale= Rubbish!

Belly means he cant debate pale on unions and live exports and now Stu from Tapp Simple as that.

I understand that some do not understand
I understand that some can not see past their own biases
I know some truly think only they have the facts.
But I will never understand why threads must die at those hands.
I take my own advice and follow so very many who post here, it is clear only ignoring some posters will work rules do not rational debate is not possible.
And strange as it sounds some feed of being noticed even if it is while being totally wrong.