Foxy, thanks for sharing that. It does take courage to share personal stuff on a public forum where that is not always respected.

Romany, part of what got me started was wondering if "they do tend to suicide more.". Is there empirical evidence about that? I tend to hold the view that it's healthier to share feelings but it's not a view I'm certain is backed up by evidence. Before you ask I've not been off to the state library or Uni libraries about this :)

Boazy, it takes a lot of trust to get to the things closest to the core. Casual dismissal of that stuff can be devestating. I don't get there often enough.

I often find that just trying to explain something to someone else helps me to understand it better. It's not abrogation as I retain the decision making responsibility. I'm not sure what you mean by "making myself dependant", how far does that go?

I'm reliant on a lot of other people friends included for my day to day life. I might be able to live a massivly simplified and less rich life without them but I'd not choose that. I try to ensure that I give as I receive (or better). I don't much like those along for the ride at others expense but we all function better with others. I've been there for friends during tough times and friends have been there for me in tough times (not always the same ones). That's something I cherish rather than reject. I'm suspecting that you meant something different but if so I have not really grasped your meaning.

Seeker, I'm really hoping that we can continue a constructive discussion without yet another gender war. Paternity fraud is a nasty issue which I'd be happy to toss my two cents in about on an appropriate thread but is only likely to sidetrack this discussion.

R0bert

Dear Robert,

Thanks for understanding as always.

Dear Romany,

I really thought twice about sharing this time - because as Robert said - it's not always respected.
However - I thought it important - in case it may help somebody else - so I went ahead.

We deal with traumas in our own way - but for me at least - it does
help to talk about it rather than bottle it up.

Thankyou Foxy for being brave and so determined to clarify the context of your earlier post, that thoughtless people like me jump at in criticism. Now I feel bad :-)

So let me now take this discussion more seriously, and congratulate R0bert on a well-chosen subject (and thank him for his thoughtful reprimand).

I think a lot of men expect to be able to solve most problems that affect them and those closest to them. Sure, they use experts from time to time, but they probably don’t use them enough. There is definitely a gender difference here. Think of maps and asking the locals for direction, then extrapolate this to other everyday behaviour. Men value self-reliance more, women tend to attach greater value to social interaction. This is not to say that either places little value on the other, but rather that there is a discernable difference in approaches (as a generalisation of course).

Men hate to dependent on others. They are programmed to have others depend on them. Conflicts arise for both men and women in modern societies that seek to neutralise too much of human nature. Social engineering appears at odds with some primordial genetics we still replicate while at the same time, the legal system often seems to trail that very society and its science.

People do suicide because of mental illness, but they also do so aided with temporary mental instability that may be caused by great injustice, personal violation, powerlessness, or feelings of loss (all of which should be preventable). Governments are shirking their responsibility here, just as they are with child welfare. The modern state has set itself up as some sort of clearing house for all human transactions, but as a regulator of all such interaction, it is a dismal failure.

Yes, great topic R0bert. Of course it's one with which every man can identify at some level.

I think that there's no question that men in our society are generally socialised in ways that ultimately cause us to repress any feelings we may have that might be interpreted as signs of weakness - both to ourselves and others. This, of course, confers numerous advantages in our engagement with the big wide, generally masculine, world.

However, I also think that this very conditioning also confers upon us numerous negatives at the individual level, and that these are often manifested in our physical and mental health. Men often don't go and see their GP when they experience the first signs of various serious physical illnesses, and the same thing applies to our mental health. We 'soldier on', frequently to the extent that minor stuff bubbles away until it becomes deadly serious - this applies equally to prostate cancer or depression.

Personally, I'm a notorious stoic. However, I've learnt over the years that this is not always the most successful survival strategy :)

My father died of a cerebral hemorrhage at age 53.

It was standard procedure then, to perform an autopsy on anyone who suddenly died and hadn't visited a doctor within a 12 month period.

I can't recall my father ever visiting a doctor.

There are times when stoicism is appropriate, war, disasters of some kind, in fact any situation of crisis where a cool head is required. At such times such stoicism may be displayed by either men or women.

However, in day to day living such 'stoicism' can be a death sentence.

Robert -

This is one of those situations in which I kinda hesitated before posting. Because I hate to sound like those people who post innacurate information which they swear they have the provenance for but can't lay their hands on just at the moment.

But, really, I came here with my regulation allowance of 20 kilos (well, o.k., about 26 all up) and nothing more.

All I can say is that yes, information garnered from case studies,(which often included suicide notes), personal experience and psychology journals did indicate that discussion and seeking help did lead to more positive outcomes. Those who internalised completely and did not seek help or guidance presented as more at risk.

Given time I could perhaps slowly find contacts and research again - but then it would be starting from scratch and anyone can do that. So, sorry, I honestly can't point you directly at any immediately available source. Though your local community welfare organisations, who are a really helpful lot, would probably be able to give you some pointers in the right direction.

A footnote: those "take a couple of pills and call a friend" occurrances are considered cries for help and ALL cries for help are considered important. And yes, the chosen method - guns, driving off cliffs or into trees, pills ) does impact on the number of successful suicides.