As others have said this issue is too important to become part of yet another gender debate.

I remember a story told by Jeff Kennett at a function in his capacity as spokesperson for Beyond Blue. A staff member who worked in the hotel he was staying at approached him to thank him for lifting the veil of secrecy surrounding depression. This fellow had struggled with depressive thoughts for some time and believed discussing his problem would alientate his wife, family and friends. When he found the courage to talk about it he was met with only love and support not only from those close to him but from his workplace as well.

On a positive note, many workplaces run courses during working hours to educate and inform their staff about depression which would suggest that we have come a long way from the unhelpful and negative stigma surrounding mental illness and depression while recognising we still need to do more to understand and prevent these illnesses.

Does anyone know of any research to suggest why depression has increased? Or is it that it is just more reported?

Foxy, if I actually believed I was a member of the same species as Bob Ellis, I would have topped myself years ago.

One of our local ABC male "personalities" was gushing on about how he mashed potato the other day. What the modern SNAG aspires to, wow.

Bring back the dinosaurs, & give men something worthwhile to do, or, god help us, we can all sit around bleating like the sheep most of us have become. No wonder some of us take the easy way out.

Dear TRTL,

I agree with you.

Men are now permitted a more gentle and expressive personality than would have been considered appropriate a few decades ago.

The 'John Wayne' image of manhood has less and less appeal to both sexes.

As I stated previously, like the feminine role, the masculine role is now more ambiguous, more flexible, more subject to interpretation by the individual. Resolving this kind of ambiguity is part of the challenge of social and cultural change.

Under the old system, everyone knew what their roles were, and most people unquestioningly behaved as they were supposed to. The system constrained people, but it freed them from the need to make choices.

There are fewer constraints today, but again, as I stated earlier,
the individual now has the liberty - or the burden - to choose his or her own path to self-fulfillment.

This does not necessarily mean that women will gradually adopt the characteristics of men or vice versa or that the two existing genders will converge on some happy medium.

The most probable pattern is one in which many alternative lifestyles and roles will be acceptable for both men and women.

Australian society is individualistic and highly open to change and it is likely that men and women will explore a wide variety of possible roles. True liberation from the restrictions of gender would mean that all possible options would be open and equally acceptable for both sexes. Then a person's individual human qualities, rather than his or her biological sex, would be the primary measure of that person's worth and achievement.

hi to all the forgotten australians out their ,

i read some of the post here and find them interesting ,

it took me over 20 years to speak about whayt had happend to me when i was placed into institutional care , im a victim of two pedophiles that raped and abused me in daruk boys home , i finally could not hold this back no more and still effects me to this day , i speak about it because it is the truth ,

yes i have had suicide attempts at times of which are on record, but i am still here, just .

i have also had people try to take my life for speaking out and telling the truth , of which is on police record,

so to me speaking out can help and can also make things worse of which i have found ,

their is no such thing as self justice thats why i am going through the courts ,

the forgotten australians are victims of horriffic crimes against children and the australian goverment and the states of australia know this and know its real and true , we will no longer be forgotten

,a real victim of institutional abuse by the employees of the state of new south wales

regards huffnpuff

Thanks to all for the great input so far.

Foxy I'd agree that Bob Ellis's world is not my world. Maybe that of the Alpha types.

I suspect that if we can avoid a gender war we could have a quite wide ranging discussion here. Some very important issues.

I'm wondering if the models used for sharing emotional stuff are ones which often don't work well for men. Is there another way of doing some of that stuff that would work better.

My recollections of marriage counselling was of a process that refused to accept that I might not be comfortable framing things in the terms the counsellors seemed to want. An approach and communication framework which really did not work for me. I seemed to be pressured to fit the framework the counsellors wanted rather than the counsellors trying to find a framework that let us all express ourselves effectively.

I consider myself quite expressive and willing to talk about emotional issues but I don't tend to phrase things the way others expect. I don't know if I'll be able to quantify that better if challenged about it.

Fractelle, I'm very uncertain of the credibility of the material regarding failed suicide attempts. I recall reading material on it some time ago and it is a plausable reason for the difference in success rates. The perceived plausibility of that theory may be impacted by my single experience with a suicide attempt by a friend. That was very clearly a case of pop some pills and call a friend to come around.

I'm heading out for the evening so I'll stop there.
Please keep the comments and discussion flowing.

R0bert

Dear Hasbeen,

I don't think that sharing your problems instead of 'keeping it inside,' makes you 'a sheep' as you put it.

Some men may benefit from not 'keeping it inside.'

I'll give you a case example:

Most men would be shocked to find out they were infertile. There is still a common, incorrect belief that infertility is a female condition. Therefore when men are told that there is a sperm problem,
they are often quite unprepared.

It is not unusual for infertile men to feel stressed about an initial diagnosis. They may also find it difficult to deal with their stress, particularly if they don't feel comfortable speaking to others about their emotions. Men don't usually express their feelings in the same way as women, but the anger, guilt and anxiety felt can appear in many ways.

Stress often comes from feelings of vulnerability. Being told that there is a sperm problem could strike at the core of men's masculinity. Most infertile men at some time would struggle with the idea that they are not able to do what other men can. This could lead them to confuse their infertility with their sense of masculinity, sexuality, virility and potency. It would not be unusual for these men to experience episodes of all sorts of difficulties, while they tried to come to terms with their diagnosis.

Most men would need to understand why they are infertile. Sometimes no reason can be given, which could lead to feelings of frustration. Where possible, knowing the cause would help men accept the problem, but it could also leave them with a sense of injustice.

Men and women often have different responses to a diagnosis of infertility. Women may commonly feel a sense of loss or bereavement whereas men would sense that their infertility exposes them to potential ridicule and humiliation from others. Men would then feel added stress as they tried to find ways to manage this perceived situation.

And of course - some men would manage alright. But some would not.
And it's those men that 'couseling' may help.