I thought the point of this forum was to find out if people did or did not believe in God, not so both sides can have a slinging match against the peoples opinions and beliefs. I have stated already that I do and given my reasons why.

Philo, OK I could think of other, serious and unselfish ways of asking God to prove himself … lemme think… *pulls dead-serious face* I’ll ask God to grow limbs for a roomful of amputees then. I’m sure that some religious amputees have been praying for a healing for a long time. While God (according to some believers) miraculously heals people through prayer, he’s always sadly ignored amputees. Why do you think that is, Philo? Does God hate amputees like he hates homosexuals? Or has he lost his power?

You say, “The basis for your belief is based in selfishness and self interest”.
What kind of belief would that be? A lack of belief in something is not a belief.
And what, BTW, is the basis for YOUR belief? Is it the selfish need to go to heaven?

AJ thanks for clearing up the young Earth thing for Philo.
But don’t be surprised if he looks at all these links blindfolded and ear plugged- he’s quite factophobic.

Excuse me people if I don’t come across as serious enough but I find the creationist’s logic highly amusing; I mean…a 6000-year young earth for god sake! Miracles!

Anyway Philo don’t restrain yourself if you feel the urge to tell us that stories such as Adam and Eve or Noah’s Ark literally happened… not that I’d want you to feed my evil need for more amusement… (Grin).

Mega bites, many people on OLO do like to debate more about many topics than just stating their opinion, but no one is obligated to take part in the debate.
Thanks for your opinion.

Vanilla: "Is that really the standard of young earth "science"?"

Philo's demonstrated time and again that he doesn't understand scientific reasoning. This, of course, underlies his claim about sceptics and verifiable evidence.

It's ironic that they can't provide verifiable evidence for their magical claims, yet they are happy to trot out garbage like that 'article', or resort to arguing that their mystical texts are evidence enough.

Surely God could provide them with some real, verifiable evidence in order to turn us sceptics into believers? I mean, they're always tring to convert us, so why not produce something that would settle the matter?

While I don't exactly "want to believe", I'm always willing to be persuaded by rational argument and verifiable evidence.

If there is still a place in this forum to address the original topic...

I believe in God's existence.

Why? Because I didn't have enough faith to remain an atheist. The shift was difficult as the lifestyle had its moments but Christianity definitely has its own rewards.

God and Christianity make sense to me. Contrarily arguments put forward by atheists don't make sense to me.

Further, the most obvious products of Christianity seem to work better than most major human innovations albeit with some human imperfections. This suggests a solid foundation. Examples include science, Universities, and Churches. These aren't perfect but the problems are overshadowed by wonderful accomplishments.

Science by its nature was something of a gamble of faith. Its success affirms the faith. It is no longer pursued solely on faith that God created the world in a particular way. Indeed people of all religions use it as a tool and many ironically believe in it without believing in a God at all. It has centuries of track history to support the assumptions of its founders and has benefited humankind greatly along the way.

"Further, the most obvious products of Christianity seem to work better than most major human innovations albeit with some human imperfections. This suggests a solid foundation. Examples include science, Universities, and Churches. These aren't perfect but the problems are overshadowed by wonderful accomplishments."

Sorry to be thick, but I don't understand what you're saying here. What are the "obvious products of Christianity"? Are you suggesting science is an obvious product of Christianity? Do you think that all ideas and progressions that occurred in Christian countries are products of Christianity?

And what are the "human innovation" you're contrasting the products of Christianity with?

Hi Vanilla,

Thanks for taking an interest in my reasons for believing.

"What are the "obvious products of Christianity"?"

Anything that resulted directly from Christianity. I believe the most obvious ones are the ones I listed. (I figure that they are the most obvious 'cause they are the only ones I thought of that are intimately linked with Christian beginnings and their existence is extremely obvious)

"Are you suggesting science is an obvious product of Christianity?"

Yes

"Do you think that all ideas and progressions that occurred in Christian countries are products of Christianity?"

No if I take that question at face value. Obviously that question could be approached with different levels of complexity.

"And what are the "human innovation" you're contrasting the products of Christianity with?"

I'll do my best to think of examples:

Slavery
Attempting to eradicate cane beetles by introducing cane toads.

Even harder to do a long list for this due to the broadness of the categories in the other list and because of the long Christian heritage of our society. Particular wars come to mind for the list but the category should be war and that gets complicated. Even the cane toad thing is probably too specific.