I would like to ask the opinion of fellow OLO readers.

I recently made formal allegations against the Ombudsman of a conspiracy to cover up allegations of bias, victimisation, neglect and corruption aimed at children. The cover up is in relation to formal allegations that my family has made against the Department of Education.

I sent a copy of a letter to the Premier Mr. Morris Iemma and asked for his assistance with regard to holding the Ombudsman’s office to account. I received, in part, this reply signed by Leigh Sanderson for Robyn Kruk – Director General..

"The Ombudsman is an independent office created by statute and is responsible directly to Parliament. Accordingly, the Government cannot, and should not attempt to, direct the Ombudsman in the exercise of the Ombudsman's functions.

The Ombudsman is overseen by a Joint Parliamentary Committee, which monitors and reviews the exercise of the Ombudsman’s functions. I note that you have already raised your concerns regarding the Ombudsman’s office with the Joint Parliamentary Committee on the Office of the Ombudsman and Police Integrity Commission.

In the circumstances, the Department can be of no further assistance to you.

The first paragraph really confused me. I thought that the Government was Parliament?

The second paragraph was a concern because I can’t help but wonder whether the Premier knows that the Office of the Ombudsman and Police Integrity Commission are informing people that they do not have the power to question the Ombudsman or to look at any investigations or complaint handling issues from his office and that under the Ombudsman’s Act Section 31B(2) they are prohibited from asking questions about ‘particular conduct’.

I just find this bizarre. Who is keeping the Ombudsman honest? Does anybody know?

Oh and I don't know what assistance the Department of the Premier actually thought that they have given me?

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better

Jolanda I am aware of your case I have more than once visited your web page and watched with interest your posts here.
However[ I have zero reason to support my states leader] he is right.
That office was set up to be a watch dog on governments, interference by government would be seen as just that.
No easy task you set your self, any of us who challenge government or its children such as the education department are fighting against a great tide of whitewash.
I did and I lost, well maybe the fight continues.
The shambolic nature of the current NSW government sees more effort on white wash application than honest outcomes.
More strength to you but your best efforts should be in getting the-other side of politics and the Medea involved.

Hi Belly, problem is that if the Ombudsman was set up to be a watchdog on Governments and those in the Joint Parliamentary Committee are Ministers and these Ministers are prohibited by Legislation from asking any questions with regard to misconduct and corruption then what is the point of having them? All they do is work as another level of cover up as people believe that if you had evidence then something would be done. People don't realise that nobody is allowed to challenge public servants. The only role of complaint handling is to obtain a response. The response can contact lies and misrepresentations and it will not be challenged, it will be accepted on face value and your matter closed. Complaint handling never looks at the evidence. This is why there are never any investigations only inquries. Even if you look at the Ombudsman’s report you will see that they pretty much investigated nothing. They do not want to know the truth. They just want to present the picture that they want to present.

Criminals have full protection of the law whilst law-abiding citizens get shafted.

The DET targeted all my children, not just one. The persons responsible were permitted to continue targeting my children so that we would present distressed and that I would have numerous issues to deal with and that I would become confused. I have no doubt that their hope was that I would turn to alcohol or drugs and/or lose my mind so that they could discredit me further. Just like what happened with the Aboriginal people.

The media know, for some reason they don't want to go there. Not too many people care about the children they prefer to protect the adults. The other side of politics (Education) said that they didn't have the power/resources or funding to investigate individual complaints and Mr. B. Nelson said that the issues we raised were too complex for him and so he couldn't help us.

They must know by now that I will fight this to the bitter end. Nobody should be allowed to mistreat children.

Jolanda, I am sure that you believe that the DET have mistreated your children. What I am curious about is

1. Do you believe that the DET organised for children at your childs school to make up allegations and do you belive that they also asked teachers to go along with these alegation as to discredit your child and your family. (the situation where your son was not at school on the day that the school alledged that the incident occured)

2 Do you think that it is fair and right that you include the Aborignial people as a comparision to you and your children.

jolanda
What do you mean by 2- could you please explain?=
2 Do you think that it is fair and right that you include the Aborignial people as a comparision to you and your children.

Jolanda: "I thought that the Government was Parliament"

No. Parliament is comprised of the Government and the Opposition. The Joint Parliamentary Committee includes members from both the Government and Opposition.

If your complaints to the Joint Parliamentary Committee had any substance, I'm quite sure the Opposition members of the Committee would have pursued them in order to embarrass the Government.

While there's no doubt that you feel aggrieved, has it occurred to you that you might be wrong?

Jolanda

Sorry cleary I meant Annoyed Parent.
I am also familar with Jolandas matter. I probably would not have made comment had I not seen your post refering to aboriginal children. It caught me eye.
There are many things that happen in our lives and not all of them will be fair or just.
However I cant help but try to remind people that the poor aboriginal children are the ones really suffering. With this new Government not all things are bad.
Kevin Rudd 'much to my surprise 'is running a very open Government.
( apart from certain trade issues)

That said Kevin Rudd is very interested in Schools and education and his staff in that area seem to be making a fantasic effort.

While I understand most schools come under their State Governments
people have been invited to contact the Rudd Government with any claims of Government misadventure.etc.

I was just curious if you like concerned parent about your comment.
After having said that i must admit to not reading all of Jolandas comment this time after reading a huge amount of her material I the past.
So possibly your question is a cross reference to something stated there.

Sorry, I misread your opening statement. I thought you were appealing to OLD contributors.

Being old, I remember a system of Government called the Westminster system. Compared with this load of spin doctoring that we now elect, it was a very satisfactory system of Government.

Good luck with your cause.

I don't know much about this issue Jolanda and I can see you feel very strongly about your experience with DET.

I would say one thing from personal experience, don't let this situation consume your life. It is easy to become totally absorbed when you believe a great wrong has been done and while you are fighting the powers that be, your life and that of your family still continues.

Sometimes it is better to let go and accept that sometimes people get away with doing the wrong thing and that not everything can be fixed as infuriating as it might be. Peace of mind sometimes means letting go.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, my comments comes from personal experience as an employee in a government department and speaking out about some of the activities. With the benefit of hindsight I would not recommend whistleblowing to anyone. The government is a strange beast and in the face of scrutiny sometimes all it does is close the ranks. I understand all about FOI and in my case there was a small win, so I am not saying that integrity always loses out to the machinery of government merely to say to weigh up the costs.

Yours in empathy.

Jolanda, I just had a look at your website and must say I found it very confusing. I couldn't tell what the actual offenses against your children have been. Or are you keeping them confidential for a reason? If not, can I ask, what actually happened?

jolanda, there is no oversight of government in oz, but the ombudsman office is supposed to make sure people are not victimized by the personal spite of whatever agency you fall afoul of. it can't do anything about the government itself.

bad luck if you have managed to antagonize two agencies. but cj is right to suggest maybe the fault is your own. even if not, there is not much you can do.

in my experience, the best plan is to visit the office of your local mp, present your case, and get a written report detailing why you should not be given any assistance. then publish that report on the web. add your side of the story in a separate document. perhaps the public will see that you are being done over. this kind of publicity is very unwelcome to politicians.

or maybe the response will be: "serves her right!" either way, that's all you can do.

Right or wrong you're fighting for your children.
I can live with that!
Great believer in going public and fighting for the accused right of reply.

Annoyed parent. Yes I do believe that the Department organised the victimisation of my children including the witch hunt when they tried to label my son as a bully.

My children, Aboriginal children - What is the difference. They are all children. What I am comparing is the Governments failure to address complaints in relation to the mistreatment of children. When you are treated with disdain, when you are victimised and denied your rights it impacts your state of mind.

PALE. When I wrote a complaint about the Ombudsman to the Office of the Ombudsman and Police Integrity Commission about the fact that the Ombudsman had not been fair in his dealings with my family they advised us that under the Ombudsman’s ACt Section 31B(2) that they were prohibited from asking questions about 'particular conduct' and that they therefore couldn’t' help my family. The second time I wrote to them as I had clear evidence of a conspiracy to cover up they said that they do not have the power to do anything.

The failure of people in positions to act makes it appear that we don't have a case, when in reality the problem is that the system is set up to protect criminals. The whole idea is to discredit the complainant and it certainly works.

CJMorgan. Don't be so sure mate. I went to the local member and he said that there should be a report on the investigation if the Department is indicating that the matter was investigated. The local member wrote to the Department who just replied and said the matter was closed. The local member then wrote to me and said that he couldn't help me. Everybody says that they do not have the power. So the power is obviously with the accused.

In July 2007 I requested under FOI the investigation report. To date no documents have been produced. There has never been an investigation and I know because it is clearly set out in documents I received under FOI. All there has been is a cover up all the way to the top.

Pelican. Thank you for your concern. I do not let this matter consume my life. What people do not seem to understand is that my children have been targeted over many years and not just one child, my four children have been targeted. Two are in year 12 this year. We have clear evidence that their test marks are being manipulated. If it was your children - would you just let it go and tell your children to cop it sweet.

With the benefit of hindsight back in the Year 2000 when I made complaints about the education of my children, if I knew then what know now, I wouldn't have said a word. But you see I believed them when they said that if you have any concerns to let them know. They lied. I would have taken my children out and homeschooled them. Unfortunately you cannot turn back time.

Vanilla a quick overview is that my children are very highly gifted. They suffered alot at school as they were extremely advanced. In the year 200O I made some public complaints about the neglect of their education, so in order to discredit me, the DET have been manipulating my childrens test scores and school applications, bullying and victimising my children and spreading lies about me so that my children present not as smart as what I say that they are and me as a crazy pushy parent.

WE have an alarming amount of evidence to support our claims that the DET.

I stand to be corrected but Jolanda,s children are Aboriginal, so why the strange question?
And the issue is purely a NSW one little to do with Rudd
ICAC the NSW watch dog is investigating some from my party, and like it or not I am quite happy they are, try them Jolanda.
Your claims if true are work for the Independent Commission into what ever and Corruption.
Good advice that about whistle blowing take it from me.
You Will Not Win.
Strange as it may sound the person who took this whistle blowers job, mine can tell you too.
No friend of mine he at first stood against me.
Now he thinks as I do, fought and lost every fight I did.
And those who steal, cover up, sell contracts, survive.
Stay focused Jolanda anger or heat will only defeat you, after a while the white wash includes a coat of mud and in time honest men will see only your anger not the truth
best regards

Dear Jolanda,

I wish you strength to keep going. You're a brave lady.
It can't be easy doing what you're doing. It takes a lot of
perseverance, work, and just plain guts - to keep going after
you hit a brick wall - so many times.

I don't know if this will help but I looked up this site on the web:
www.nswombudsman.nsw.gov.au/aboutus/legislation.html - 30k -

It outlines the powers that the Ombudsman has - what it can and can't do and why.

Again - stay strong, and my good wishes go with you.

Jolanda

Sorry my question was directed to Annoyed Parent. I of course know your children are 'not aboriginal so let’s move on.
I think if you are to give people a clear view as you ‘should’ mention their background just in case their is some type of discrimination to do with that. Also it is not clear to people from this that this has already been to court.
Perhaps it may help if you posted the courts finding on that hearing however that is up to you of course.

As it’s already been to court it might help if you posted the documents of support to your claim the marks were tampered with
It can’t hurt your case because it’s done with- All Over

DEMO’s advice was good and I know others have advised you for years to just move so I won’t keep repeating that advice although you know I fear for your home etc.

The effect on the children and in particular your son who got to the stage her did could not even go to school eventually which to me is a even bigger worry.
I can try to help you with your first question if that helps. You said=

I recently made formal allegations against the Ombudsman of a conspiracy
I sent a copy of a letter to the Premier Mr. Morris Iemma etc

They said
Ombudsman is an independent office created by statute and is responsible directly to Parliament.
The Ombudsman is overseen by a Joint Parliamentary Committee, which monitors and reviews the exercise of the Ombudsman’s functions.

You said=
The first paragraph really confused me. I thought that the Government was Parliament?

Pale
The best way to explain this is to give you an example of different Ombudsman and their duties.

Next post, out of space space

Jolanda “I recently made formal allegations against the Ombudsman of a conspiracy to cover up allegations”

That is a bit like complaining to the board of Enron about the conduct of Andersens.

For myself, I find the extent and level of authority of local, state and federal government exceeds all levels needed to ensure an effective community.

I would observe, the only defense to corruption in public office is to limit the size of the opportunity.

“Smaller government” across the board is a better option which will reduce both the opportunity and the magnitude of bureaucratic incompetence, inefficiency and corruption.

We do need government for defense, law enforcement, water, as an arbiter / maintainer of checks and balances, as well as authors of statute but everything else is discretionary.

We have a plural education system, plural health system, private run prisons.

We do not need ports, banks, airlines, car insurance, ship yards run by government bureaucrats and civil servants, those things can be done by private interests supplying competitive services funded by their client/users, rather than tied services funded by third party tax payers.

Even the water authorities of Victoria have been raped of their finances by the state government “special dividend”. This is where the water charges paid by town and city water consumers are diverted into the general funds of the state, to be squandered on whatever indulgence the government wishes to pursue; instead of being used to fund new infrastructure needs, as the charges were intended for.

Jolanda, an allegation against a government department, supplying monopoly services is always going to be tougher than an allegation against a private organization, competing for recognition and needing to be aware of the voice of public criticism.

Jolanda

I don't know the full story here and I'm not really interested in trawling through all the stuff on your website, but I can't help wondering about the effect that your obsessive pursuit of the NSW Education Department must be having on your children.

I agree with you that Selective Schooling should be abolished and that all state schools should be open to all students. I also believe that students within schools should be afforded equal opportunity. Struggling and disadvantaged students need extra assistance to help them achieve reasonable standards and this is where scarce resources should be directed, not toward 'gifted' students who have the inherent ability and supportive home environment to allow them to make their own successes and to advance themselves to whatever degree they choose to. There are many and varied ways to extend gifted students within the class group; there is no need to stream them and further elevate them above their peers.

You say you want a universal system rather than a preferential one and yet you're demanding that your children receive preferential treatment within that system. Your position is confused and irrationally subjective. It is also potentially damaging to your children as they grow up in the mistaken belief that the system that is good enough for everyone else is somehow not good enough for them.

PALE. It did not 'go to Court'. Where did you hear that?

I took the DET to the Administrative Decisions Tribunal because documents we requested they produce under FOI were missing from the documents that we were provided with. We applied to have the matter reviewed by the ADT. However, instead of the Department organizing to give us the documents, the Department of Education organized to destroy documents.

On the morning the matter was listed for hearing at the ADT the Department of Education and I came to some agreements, and on the basis of an understanding that they would honour their agreements, I agreed to dismiss the hearing.

These agreements were.

1. That my children and I would attend the premises of the Department so that the students could check their test papers and answer sheets in a secure and safe environment.
2. That I would inform the Department of the Documents that were missing and they would provide me with them
3. That once the above was done that there would be a meeting with the Department to discuss the discrepancies, omissions, deletions in the documents and the process used for selection for Selective Schools.

To date the DET has not honoured their agreements or investigated the matter and yet the matter has been closed and even fresh allegations of new instances of manipulation, victimization and bullying aimed at my other children are filed away on the basis that they refer to similar allegations as before. This is totally against Policy. All new allegations should be investigated in their own right.

We are once again being forced to put the matter before the ADT.

It is a very busy weekend. It is my daughters 12th birthday and she has invited 7 girls to sleep over tonight and then others arrive the next day for her party. I can escape for some peace on my computer but scanning/downloading documents is something that is very slow and I have to get my eldest daughters help. That requires planning. I will get on to it as soon as I can.

Jolanda,

"Yes I do believe that the Department organised the victimisation of my children including the witch hunt when they tried to label my son as a bully."

So what you are saying is that the DET arranged for children and teachers to make up stories about your son. In another words the DET made phone calls or visits to the family homes of serveral children and asked the to conspire against your son.

Isnt it more belivable that maybe the children involved and your son didnt get along and the day your son was away they choose to address it with the principal therefore the date was incorrect.

Could this be somewhat more believable.

In regards to the Aborignal Issue. I think its a bit grand to try and say that what the government is doing to you to relative to what the government did to the Aboriginal children and their families. For me its an insult that you should try and compare. that is just my opionion.

Jolanda
Er, exrordinary. Our understanding of your matter last discussed you were seeking advise as to how to recoup 20.000 dollars for your costs in a case you apparently lost in court.

Upon your advise you were fighting the barristers costs because you said they failed to follow your instructions to seek costs against the department.?

You maintained you would not have lost the case if the dept had provided the docs regarding the childrens marks being tampered with.



I recall warning you about loosing your property in regards to ongoing court costs and being extremly concerned for your Son who you said wasnt handling the stress and would not attend school.
I am almost sure you replied you had taken a loan out on the house for the $20.00 court costs to pay be the legal costs.?

Anyway Its been a long time so perhaps we have a case of crossed wires. - And yet Jolanda- Didnt you just say this has never been to court?

Anyway there are so many other good people on this thread who have asked you questions and made helpful suggestions I should leave you to answer them for a while and perhaps pop back to this thread later.

Its nice to know so many people have responded to your request for advise. If you dont mind me saying I know your busy but there are questions from these god people that it might help sort things out somemore so people fuly understand if you can get an hour to reply to them.
Bronwyn, has a point when we think about the world as a whole IMOP
and I dont mean that to offend.
On behalf of the pale crew happy birthday wishes- (Please pass on from the Gold Coast.)

Annoyed Parent,
Hello I have been reading the thread and I wasnt going to comment because Belly always picks on me and I get upset.
I am a aboriginal lady and I was interested in your comments about this lady asking for four of her children to be put into gifted childrens schools.
I would be interested if you have the time because I am also a annoyed parent if you could post or durect me to those coments.
Having family throughout Australia that still have their kids been bitten over thre hundred times with rat bites because nobody will put baites out I just cant help it.
I do get upset. Also does anybody know what the odds are of having four gifted children out of four.?

I am not saying that something has not happend to upset Jolanda but I am saying we need to get things in order of importance and I also would feel offended to see this case being liked to the aboriginal kids who mostly have nothing and some no school at all.
Thanks for pointing that out annoyed parent from one annoyed parent to another.

Pale there are a few different issues with regard to this matter. The Tribunal is not a Court in the way that you were presenting. We did not lose the case at the Tribunal. We were given access to certain documents and the ADT stated that with regard to other documents that he agreed that it was an unreasonable diversion of resources to provide them. Problem was that these were the same documents that the DET had promised to provide under our agreement. Our Barrister despite being asked in writing, did not inform the Judiciary member about the agreements and the fact that the DET had not honoured their agreements and that is why were back again before them. The Barrister also didn't ask for costs despite us requesting in writing, more than once, that an order for costs be made at the end of the hearing. Judgment was reserved.

Then the Barrister said to us that because when Judgment was handed down six months later we didn't get all the documents that we wouldn't have got costs anyway as we didn't win. We argued that if he had of told the Judiciary member that these documents were supposed to have been produced as per an agreement made at the ADT and he had asked for costs then the outcome would have been different. We didn't get costs awarded because the Barrister did not follow written instructions.

I am referring to putting the documents in the website when I said that I didn't have time this weekend. I am trying to reply to people but because we are limited in the amount of posts you can post it is very frustrating.

I thank those who have taken the time to post and I will reply when I can. For those who choose not to look at the evidence and still post their opinion I suggest that they cannot make an informed decision if they do not know the facts.

Thanks for your response Jolanda. I do understand what you are going through and you are sticking to your guns and going in fighting.

Have you tried all avenues within the media? Nothing gets things done like an expose' when it means someone in government will have to take notice. ABC - Four Corners or 7.30 Report or dare I suggest shows like Today Tonight and Current Affair. The latter two are not as reputable but at least they might bring these anomalies out into the open and force a response from the relevant authorities. If the big media outlets are difficult to access why not try the local paper or radio station in the first instance and move upwards as the case gets more attention.

I know postings are limited on here so no need to respond to me just thought I would throw out some suggestions but I am aware that you have probably covered most of these anyway.

As someone said sometimes you can't win all the battles but you are giving it your best shot.

Vexatious eh? Wonder why that would be?

You'll really enjoy their university years. Much larger scales to work with.

"While there's no doubt that you feel aggrieved, has it occurred to you that you might be wrong?" I'd like to know the answer to that too.

How do you plan to relieve the boredom when they've all finished school?

Taryn,

I agree, Jolanda needs to get real. There are people out there with real problems. I am not saying that things havent happened but I have not seen any evidence that suggest anything was done on purpose.

I ask jolanda," So what you are saying is that the DET arranged for children and teachers to make up stories about your son. In another words the DET made phone calls or visits to the family homes of serveral children and asked the to conspire against your son."

"Isnt it more belivable that maybe the children involved and your son didnt get along and the day your son was away they choose to address it with the principal therefore the date was incorrect.

Could this be somewhat more believable."

and of course she chooses not to reply by saying

For those who choose not to look at the evidence and still post their opinion I suggest that they cannot make an informed decision if they do not know the facts

Which shows that Jolanda may not be telling the whole truth about every matter. SHe is trying to paint a picture against the DET. I find it very hard to believe, actually impossible to believe that the DET contacted kids and teachers and asked them to conspired against Jolanda and her son. This is all fabricated. If not Jolanda show us the evidence!

Come on Jolanda, if this didnt happen tell us exactly what happened.
tell us about your version of "the witch hunt"

"I thank those who have taken the time to post and I will reply when I can. For those who choose not to look at the evidence and still post their opinion I suggest that they cannot make an informed decision if they do not know the facts."

Jolanda, as one poster to whom this comment is probably directed, I would like to apologize if I have caused offence. By my own admission I don't know all "the facts", so I do stand to be corrected.

There's no hurry, when you have time you can address the point I made. I don't need a full rundown, just enough of the facts that I don't know to counter my statement which I do still stand by firmly.

You have to expect when you start a personal thread like this that you are going to face some criticism. Most of us are more interested in broader philosophical debate than we are in the detailed ins and outs of personal stories, I know I am. If however this situation is causing you personal grief then on that basis alone of course you have my sympathy and I certainly don't want to add to your problems in any way.

Nobody contacted the kids Annoyed parent. What the school did was call my sons friends into the office and they said to them that there had been allegations of harassment made against my son and that if it wasn’t my son who did it that it must have been one of them. Then they left all three boys in a room together and told them to write a statement. The boys had no idea what the school was talking about but they were scared, scared that they would be blamed, so they wrote what they were told and that is that my son harassed this kid. Apparently the statement had not dates, not times, no information - nothing. All statements were identical that just said that my son did it. The boys were left alone in a room together to write the statements.

It is also a fact that at parent teacher interview the acting deputy principal told the parents of my sons friends that they should keep their sons away from my son because he was a troublemaker. Problem was that my son hasn’t actually done anything wrong – he was being victimized.

I am just having a break so I do not have time to go through the posts and reply individually but I just want to say one thing, my complaints are not causing my children distress. The treatment that they are receiving from the Department is what is causing them the distress. The fact that my husband and I stand up and fight for their right to be treated fairly shows them that we care and gives them strength and hope that maybe things will be better.

Thank you Pelican and Bronwyn and all others who have shown understanding. I will try to get on and post in a more in-depth way when I can.

Oh and Chainsmoker we have a right complaint about injustices. That does not mean you are vexatious.

Hi Jolanda

so the school did it. Not the DET.

So there was an incident over a period of time at school with a child and a group of kids (your sons friends) , the day your son was away the school called in all the kids and told the kids that someone has to own up or all of them would get in trouble so all the kids that were involved said it was your son ( he was the only one not there at that time) is that right.

OR

there was no complaint from any other child and the school made it all up with instructions from the DET.

is this right?

Was there any other child involved, that didnt belong to the group of friends?

Description:Reviewed by Deirdre Conway Rand, Mann Psychological Services, Mill Valley, California.

Jolanda I have read you blogs a long time You never said anything other than your kids were marked down. I studied in my own time and I think YOU need to be make aware that YOU are destroying your kids lives and made Accountable. Iam nottrying to be unkind but I AM concerned at the DEPT should act you require help dear.

MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME
Hurting for Love is the first book ever about a complex form of child abuse called Munchausen syndrome by proxy; heretofore discussed primarily in medical journals. The authors use a precise, narrow definition of Munchausen by proxy syndrome as they call it, abbreviated (MBPS). The parents they describe, usually mothers, masquerade as perfect caretakers while secretly it is the parent causing the child's illness. The first of the book's three parts elaborates on commonly accepted features of the syndrome. The mother/perpetrator often has an unusual grasp of medical terminology and may be in a medical or quasi-medical field. Because these mothers blend in well with the medical environment, they generally do not seem unusual to doctors, staff, or neighbors, although sometimes they claim that dramatic and unverified incidents such as fires and burglaries have happened to their families while they were in the hospital. They are likely to be married but to men who are emotionally distant or physically absent much of the time. The husbands are not involved with the children's medical problems and often react with disbelief when presented with clear evidence of what their wives have been doing. Occasionally, a father has been found to collude with the mother in the MBPS abuse or to be the lone MBPS perpetrator.

Co-morbidity in siblings is discussed. It appears that Munchausen by proxy parents may carry out this form of abuse with more than one child, simultaneously or serially.
Reluctant to share his feeling of inadequacy with others who might help him gain perspective, the pediatrician tries harder to work with the mother in discovering what is wrong with her child.

Annoyed parent. In May 2003 I wrote to the District Office and advised them that a letter I received from the Minister for Education had said that I would receive a letter from them in respect to our formal complaints about the neglect of the education of our children and the bullying treatment by some teachers towards our children. We had written to the Department on 15 November 2001. It was 2003 and we still hadn't received a response.

In my letter I advised them that I thought it was unforgivable given what my children have had to go through that not once had anybody from the Department asked my children whether they were coping okay with the situation and whether they needed any help or support.

A few weeks later their response was to target my son. They do this so as to create another situation and move the attention away from the situation at hand and confuse things. This wasn't the first time they targeted my son, my children have been targeted relentlessly. If people believe that I have caused this to my children then I welcome the Department to organise for a psychologist/psychiatrist to talk to them. The DET have never offered them anything, no counseling, no support only consistent bullying, victimization, harassment and manipulation of their test scores and school applications so as to cause them psychological distress and to deny them access to the schools that they not only deserved, that they desperately needed to meet their identified educational needs.

The school kept changing their story. The boy said to have been harrassed did not make the complaint. The school first said that some girl in some other class made a complaint then they said it happened during class. The school and the DET are one, they talk.

Taryn your idea falls short in all places with regard to me. Also my husband and I are very happily married, he is the most supportive and wonderful father and husband and he is as committed as I am to get justice and protection for our children.

Accountability in Government ?
Jolanda,
Personally I can't imagine that possible.

Jolanda,

What do you mean by "target"?

Taryn,
Munchausen by proxy parents most often felt neglected by their own parents, siblings or peers rather than a spouse particularly.

This case sounds more like some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder. OCD sufferers are driven to do things they do because they believe that if they don't something catastrophic will happen.

Chainsmoker - it could be just an extreme case of overprotectiveness coupled with an inability to know when to let go.
I mean, it's only in recent history that the web has made it possible for this kind of thing to become very public.
In which case, I'd imagine that this kind of thing will become more common as more parents are web savvy.
I guess it'll be up to the public to discern where the legitimate grievance began, and where the overprotectiveness/need for vindication blew it out of proportion.

I think that what needs to be established is whether when a parent makes formal allegations against Department of Education Staff of systematic bias, prejudice, victimisation and misconduct aimed at their children and spanning 7 years whether the Department is allowed just to discredit the parents and ignore their complaints or whether the parents and children should be entitled to procedural fairness and natural justice and their allegations subject to a formal investigation.

Or do the majority of the public believe that it is okay to conspire to cover up?

What we are asking is for the DET to adhere to their own Policies and Codes of Conduct and investigate our families complaints and allegations. It should be our right.

Jolanda

I'm still waiting for a response to my post. I did say there was no hurry which there isn't, but you're responding to others so why not to me?

Are these your words? They were on your website so I'm assuming they are.

"It is time to get rid of selective Schools. All local schools should be able to cater for all children as they are Education centers. The millions saved not having to test the students and send them half way around Sydney to get to these schools should be re-directed to local schools to help them provide for all their students including those that are gifted. There should be no competition to enter faced paced and high level classes, just motivation and application and the ability to be able to keep up and benefit from the faster pace and higher level education presented."

Do you really want to abolish Selective Schooling? If so, why the obsessive fight to get your own children into it?

Think how much more useful it would have been if your considerable energies and talents had been channelled into leading a movement to have the divisive and elitist system of Selective Schooling dismantled, instead of into this narrow and obsessive fight to advance the interests of your own children. You would have won widespread support for your cause, whereas you never will with the fight you're waging now.

No matter how important these children are to you, when there are so many struggling and disadvantaged chidren in the education system with so many real problems, whether or not your children were badly done by in a test of several years back really doesn't warrant a high priority in the overall scheme of things. Get some perspective here. Rescue a bad situation by showing your children that you have the strength to let go and move on.

Bronwyn I haven't had a chance to get back to you because I have been busy with my daughters party. I have had a breaks and I have posted quickly things that came to mind that were relevant in a general sense and that were easy to answer but you asked specific questions and now you have asked more.

People seem to forget that just because children are intellectually gifted that doesn't mean that they are not human. Gifted children often suffer from similar problems to those children with Aspergers you can read about that in this blog from Maralyn Parker
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/maralynparker/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/the_silent_sufferers_lose_again/

My children are human. One has a physical disability from birth, they all suffer from being hypersensitive to external stimuli, all of them are extremely emotionally intense and all of them have feelings. When teachers are humiliating them in front of their peers, bullying them, marking them down, putting them down, ignoring their needs and when the system is systematically trying to discredit them and deny them opportunities the children are going to notice, you must remember they are really smart, and they are going to react.

When we first heard about Selective Schools it was from the school. WE were told that the system didn't have the funding to cater for our children's needs and that once they got to Selective Schools that things would get better. Problem is that when the time came they wouldn't let them in. If Selective Schools are not for identified gifted children who are struggling to cope in the comprehensive system then they are not serving the purpose for which they were designed for and therefore all they do is provide those who are in a better learning environment to have an even greater advantage and an avenue for the system to discredit truly gifted children and deny them access to education. That isn't equitable.

There are two issues with regard to Selective Schools one is that the process of selection is totally unfair and the other is that the process is open to bias manipulation and abuse.

Jolanda,

Everyone can write a story and be a victim by ommiting details. There is no way the DET made a phone call and talked to teachers at your sons school and arranged for a story to be made up. This is in your head.

Taryn,
I dont belive Jolanda has MUNCHAUSEN SYNDROME I believe she suffers from paranoia and an Obsessive disorder coupled a superior personality and her inability to "back Down" or even try and see anybody elses opionion.

Jolanda truly believes that something is happening but cannot differenciate between what is really happening and what is not therefore adds to stories to add substance to all her claims. SHe cannot back down as this type of personality sees it as a weekness and Jolanda is superior and will never cower down to nobody. When she is challenged she automatically turns it around and claims that nobody cares about children or that the person is a employee of the DET. Unfortunately this will be the life of the Challita family. The children and husband probably havnt or dont read her stuff. there is no way any husband would allow this obsession to carry on. SHe needs ongoing help. but she will never see it, her children will suffer. its such a shame that Jolanda cannot see what many many people have tried to tell her.

Hey folks

Those who are suggesting Jolanda is suffering “Munchausen syndrome” or “OCD” are obviously armchair psychologists, devoid of any formal training, experience, credentials or ethics.

No responsible psychologist or psychiatrist would presume to predict a serious mental disorder where Jolanda had not been objectively and professionally accessed by formal testing and or professional interview.

I could (and I am not) suggest Bronwyn is suffering an “acute anxiety and abandonment disorder “ from her comment “but you're responding to others so why not to me?” I repeat I am not making that suggestion, merely illustrating the stupidity of armchair psychology.

I do not know the fine details of Jolanda’s complaint against the DET but attempting to make serious and professional assessments and diagnosis to her mental health is well beyond any acceptable level for responsible comment on an opinion forum.

Col, I concur that you can't make a specific diagnosis without a proper assessment.

Though, sometimes you can tell something's unusual. Just like you don't need to be an architect to spot a house.
I've not suggested Ms Challita suffers from any particular disorder, but I have certainly suggested that she shows a number of signs of being extremely overprotective and unable to step back from hovering over her children's education, and her website http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/ is a fine example of this.

Of course, parents should be protective of their children, but in many cases, overly sensitive children become that way because they've never had the opportunity to do things for themselves.

If Ms Challita wants to pursue her vendetta against the education system, then okay, but if she's going this public she's got to be willing to accept that not everyone will take her side, and many will be critical of her hostile attitude toward what would appear to be anyone and anything in the education system, or even the NSW government.
Her repeated phrases of bias, bullying, manipulation etc. are all subjective adjectives, and seem to be more likely responses to a hostile attack on teachers or the system.
I can't think of any sane explanation of why people in the education system would have a vendetta against a parent, though I can certainly envision the reverse.
Not to mention the possibility that she may not be willing to consider her pursuit may be more harmful to her children than having them receive an education alongside all the other kids. I think back to my days in primary school, and I was mortified if my father pulled faces while dropping me off. (In hindsight now it seems funny, but not then).
I can't begin to imagine how embarrassing something like this would be. I don't know how you'd go about brushing something like this off and socialising normally with the other kids, when your parent has such a hatred for the school.

Though I do concur you can't make a proper psychiatric assessment on something like this.

Hey Col, nobody here is pretending to be a responsible psychologist or psychiatrist. Just average autodidacts trying to find a plausible explanation for someone else's extreme behaviour. Go have a look at her site. Does it strike you as normal or reasonable that somebody should invest so much time, energy and money in the way she has over the issues she has?

Basically her kids didn't get the test scores to get into selective schools and her son was accused of bullying. She's responded to that with a 7 year crusade against anyone with any authority and believes that government departments, school staff and students have conspired against her family, presumably to stop her kids from reaching their potential. Presumably they've done this despite the fact that their own lives would have been far simpler if they just gave in and sent her kids off to whatever school she wanted.

Nobody is looking for a diagnosis in the clinical sense, just some satisfactory explanation for a story that otherwise makes no sense.

On responsible comment, if by that you mean that Jolanda could suffer as a result of amateur speculation I'd argue that either it's water off a duck's back (she's had plenty of this kind of experience on forums) or it's troll feeding, in which case she's getting the response she's looking for.

I don't generally agree with Col on politics/economics but I have to agree with him on this. :)

Whatever one thinks of Jolanda's campaign we don't know her or her family personally and cannot know all the facts no matter what the perceptions might be. You can give a variety of people a set of pictures, scenarios or stories and everyone will come up with a different perspective.

No-one here is qualified to make psychological diagnoses let alone via forum comments.

Vanilla by targeting I mean that at every available opportunity the DET tried to humiliate and discredit my children and deny them opportunities. Examples of this, apart from the resulting manipulating of test scores and school applications after I complained are as follows?

1. Teachers humiliating my children and making sarcastic comments about my children’s intellect in front of the whole class and continuously criticizing them.

2. Teachers regularly totally ignoring my children when they are the only kid with their hand up wanting to answer a question and instead making a point to ask them to answer questions when they didn't have their hand up so as to put them on the spot and embarass them.

3. The school unfairly acussing my son of being a bully and telling the parents of my sons friends to keep their children away from my son as he is a trouble maker.

5. Teachers not allowing my daughter to play the piano in a talent quest. She had passed all her Piano exams with Honours and was extremely talented. However they let another piano player who was not at my daughters ability level play and about 20 dancers, and on the day of the talent quest even students who had not auditioned and who just mucked around were permitted to compete and my daughter was not allowed.

There is so much more. More than I can say on this forum as you so quickly run out of room.

I just want to add that my children were coming home distressed and upset, they didn’t want to go school. What they were telling me what was happening was wrong and unfair. They were becoming depressed and their body was reacting and becoming sick. The way that they were being treated was wrong so I complained and that triggered even more severe bullying and harrassment.

I would just like to add that it wasn't all teachers, but you only need one or two with power and protection to make a child's life miserable and to cause significant harm.

I am attracted purely by the title of the discussion, I have really no idea what is your issue with school children. I've just browsed through some posts and decided to respond.

One post struck me of Jolanda explaining how ombudsman acts. It is spot on. I also read some criticizm on you Jolanda but have no sides on this. I'm sorry if I may put you off, I simply focus on accountability in government and bring you my view on this.

Government needs some departments fully operational in order to function. Let's make it easy and list just a few representative: police, courts and health dept. Regardless if there is any justice at all in courts, if they somehow function, it is what government needs.

One only aspect of this machinery operation is quite unpleasant but factual.

Unfortunately the way the democracy have evolved is that there is no business in health but in sickness, there is no business in justice but in maintaining social injustice, and so on. This could take only place when there is no accountability in government.
Similar mechanism is in most other departments.

Health. Imagine the rice grower grows good rice, and sells it whole unpolished. Farmer gets little money for it, merchant little, and retailer little. There is no business. But... let's see what happens in "modern" and "developed" society when government has whole big department to look for your health. The farmer still gets not much, the polisher gets little bit, the husks processor gets fair bit because he converts them into vitamins, the merchant will get some, retailer, the doctor because you sooner or later will get sick from eating depleted white polished rice, the pharmacist or health food supplier and so on. There is lots of business from selling polished rice? No it sounds innocent and just common practice. There is lots of business from maintaining sickness and not much business from selling healthy whole rice.

This same principle applies to police, courts and any government department.

Legal industry as any other industry seeks maximum benefit at minimum effort.

mmistrz. Thank you for your post. I am more than happy for you to turn the attention back to what this thread was about and that is accountability in Government.

Attention needs to be paid to how situations are permitted to evolve and to happen.

Our experiences have shown that:-

1. The role of the Government is to only respond to allegations and deny and lie so as to cover up.
2. The role of the Investigatory bodies is to support the response by the Government so as to cover up.
3. The role of the Court is to support the Government and the Ombudsman by either doing nothing at all or by helping to stick a knife in people’s back.

In a nutshell there is an administrative conspiracy and process to cover up failures, misconduct and corruption by public servants and Government employees - including contractors.

The Opposition are in on it because they do nothing at all to counter it or stop it. They all hide behind the same process as it protects all of them. The general public have no rights and therefore no protection.

People need to speak out and stand up against this as they never know when it might impact them.

.....
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller

Hi Jolanda

Was very intersted in your response to Vanilla. You say the the DET tried to humiliate and discresit your children on every available opportunity. Again I say everybody can write a victim story about every incident in their life.

in regards to the teachers not allowing your daughter to play piano in the talent quest.

could it be that there was restictions on the number of children and/or number of piano players allowed. Could it also be that your daughter is obviously gifted in music also being probably years above her age in talent. therefore the teachers felt that this would not be a competition if your daughter was in it, (she was obviously the best) and therefore choose the other child.

Could it be that as your daughter probably knew every answer to every question, got the best mark for every test that the teachers wanted another child to feel the feeling of coming first other than your child.

Could it be that the DET had nothing to do with this??

Annoyed Parent, I'm more interested in the source of information. Ms Challita appears to place the messages from her children as beyond any possible doubt or critical appraisal, though quite frankly, a parent is the last person who can judge their own kids in this regard.
Whilst I don't think it's likely the kids lied outright, most kids exaggerate, it's just the way they are.

I can certainly envisage a child coming home saying "Mum! my teacher HATES me! She wouldn't pick me in class! They wouldn't let me dance!"

Whether this is the reality of the situation or blown out of proportion is really quite subjective and I'm not sure most children have the ability to differentiate between actual bullying and feeling bullied, especially if they're 'sensitive' as Ms Jolanda frequently posits.

Not to mention the fact that teachers probably have rather a justified dislike a Ms Challita's constant interference, though I do agree there can be no justification for taking that out on kids - though I have grave doubts as to whether this is the case.

To sum it up - a letter posted on Ms Challita's website:

""...Mrs Challita has written 13 times to the relevant Ministers and has had each of her concerns fully and repeatedly answered until she was declared a vexatious correspondent...."dated 6 December 2005)"

The website then lists a litany of pursuits directed at finding out why she has been deemed vexatious.

Any observer can tell. The obsessive pursuit of why she was deemed vexatious is evidence in itself. The entire website is evidence. It's patently clear why.

If it's between that possibility, or the possibility of a state-wide cover up, throughout the entire education system... well, I find the latter somewhat hard to countenance.

By this point in the thread Jolanda my views have changed you will not win and just maybe that is the right outcome.
Not because of what others say of you, but because of what you say.
First I was annoyed at the things people said , some strange comments , but one stuck out.
What do your children think, not to you the crafted to please mum answers what would they tell their school mates?

Dear Jolanda,

I've read your blog and posts here. I know you haven't asked for my advice, but it follows, so if you don't want it, avert you eyes.

I can't judge the merits of you case, but I believe it is obvious that you do *not* come across as a reliable or credible narrator of it. This affects how people respond to you on OLO, and reading between the lines on your blog it has also affected how DET responds to you.

Firstly, I think you should lose the term "gifted" and focus on real scores and test results. A primary school teacher in my family told me that around 50% of all parents she meets tell her that their children are gifted. Often they've just got slightly higher than average IQs, sometimes they just have an average kid's passion for art and reading. (The examples of your kids' writing on your blog shows that they're clever, but doesn't prove they're gifted. I'd remove it.) She thinks that in her thirty year career she's seem just a handful of really gifted kids. Highly accerlerated learners usually even out intellectually with their peers when they hit university anyway.

I'm not saying your kids aren't genuises, I'm saying that school authorities hear a lot of that. Focus on measurable results rather than the generic and slightly irritating term "gifted".

Similarly, don't use generic terms like "targeting". Targeting means nothing to me, you need to have specific allegations against specific teachers and back it up with witness statements. If it happened in class, you've got 30 witnesses. Stick to the facts. To say that you wrote a letter to the department and they "responded" by "targeting" your son is unsupported speculation and, frankly, unlikely. Stick to stuff you can prove.

cont...

cont...

Thirdly, if you've been labelled a vexatious correspondent, get over it. Stop writing to them - they're not reading your mail. Go to the next stage.

Fourthly, I think you'd increase your impact if you cleaned up your website. It is really confusing. People want to start with a precise of the story, then move in to details of the evidence. Longs tracts of corrospondence say little. And remove your children's photos. I don't think their images humanise the story - rather, it seems exploitative.

Lastly, don't forget about yourself. I was rather shocked when you wrote on your very first post "I thought parliament was government". This is a very elementary mistake, and as an adult who is accusing the government of all sorts, you should know how it works. Maybe you need a holiday from all this for a while. This is a very stressful situation. Maybe you need to speak to a therapist or someone about all this.

You say that you don't want to teach your kids to run away from a fight. You also need to teach them to be resilient in the face of life's many inequities, rather than to cry conspiracy each time. As I said earlier, it's not for me to judge the case, but I can't see that you've got any evidence at all to suggest the schools or DET manipulated test scores or unfairly targeted your children or are engaged in a conspiracy. I'm sorry, I did look, but I couldn't see it. I think if you focus on facts rather than allegations you may improve your chances of a successful resolution to all this.

My children are resilient they have become so resilient that they expect me to fight for justice and their right, and the right of all other children, to be treated fairly and with respect and to be protected from bullies. They are not going to be treated like dirt and just accept and say and do nothing.

My children are that gifted. This has been confirmed by the DET themselves. They are not saying that my children are not intellectually gifted; they are just saying that they didn't get enough marks on the Selective Schools tests to place them in Selective schools. Problem is that my children consistantly achieved very highly and these scores were totally out of character. They are obvious gifted children and evidence produced under FOI clearly shows that scores and information has been manipulated and tampered with and there has been bias and misconduct.

I didn't even make a complaint until my second eldest child was in Year 3. Until half year I hadn't even spoken to the teacher. I was scared to complain. My complaint was in writing so it wasn’t like I attacked the teacher and I was very careful with what I wrote.

I have been unfairly deemed vexatious and that matter is being put before the ADT. The 13 letters is a misrepresentation. There actually hasn’t been a formal process used to deem me vexatious. The word of the person that we allege was responsible was accepted as fact and the matter closed. The Department is being challenged in this regard.

You can all believe whatever you want but at the end of the day these are children and if they are complaining that they are being treated unfairly and unjustly and enquries and documents support their complaints then the allegations should be properly and fairly investigated. To do otherwise is to fail in our duty of care to the children. As an adult/parent it is my duty to protect the children.

Why are so many people happy to deny children their right to be protected from harm?

Annoyed parent the DET is the Department of Education and they are part of the School. It is all one.

There were no restrictions on piano players, just like there were no restrictions on dancers or anything else for that matter.

Yes my daughter was very talented but she was 8 years old, she was a child. She was so upset, all the other kids saw that it was unfair. She felt humiliated. Just because she is obviously talented doesn't mean that she shouldn't be allowed to compete. They auditioned to choose competitors. The teacher’s excuse was that one piano player from the class was enough? Problem was that it was a composite class and the piano player that was chosen was from the year 5 part of the class, she was in Year 3. The school allowed dancers to compete until they were coming out of the talent quests ears. There were no piano players from her year or age group. She wasn't allowed to play because they didn't want the parents to see how gifted she was because I had made public complaints about the neglect of the education of gifted children. I had justifiable good reason to complain. The mismatch was extreme and the way my children were being treated was very mean it was making my children unhappy, depressed and sick. This wasn't the first time they had done this to my children.

Oh and the DET (as in the Selective Schools Unit and Ors) didn't get involved until the Year 2000. My children started school in the year 1996. In June 2000 was the first year when I started making written and public complaints as enough was enough I was failing my children by standing by and saying nothing. Before that time my children were having issues and complaining but I said nothing. I was scared to complain. I taught them strategies to cope and just did my best to help them overcome their fears and get through the years. Problem is that the DET crossed the line.

Jolanda
I first met you through Andrew Bartletts web site. I thought you bright. I started to think that as Senator or even a person he could have said 'something to you. ( I dont know what)

You were asking for advise help. This contiuned for a very long time. He ignored. I thought that was unfair. I admired the fact that you never once asked him direct for help.

I posted a few comments in support ( Sort of) They were never posted. I wondered why but pretty much knew it wasnt you it was my involvement with upsetting the libbers. IMOP

I didnt want to make a issue because of the Animal Welfare. As happens when forum owners get upset people get banned.
I offered you some legal asistance.

Now I need you advise please. I look up and see people who have no regard for us but I see them through new eyes. Here they are taking their time because they actually really care.

To be really honest I guess that annoys me a bit but only because I am who I am I guess.
As you know my way of thinking is always so what the kids got picked on but thats nothing compaired to milllions of Animals having their eyes pulled out while alive and skinned alive in ME and worse.
( I am not trying to offend you know that.)

So I get cranky. Cranky with the Church leaders the mothers of proud kids I guess cranky with humans all together.!

Then how come It worries about these same people waisting their time here perhaps. Should I care? I was wondering if YOU would comments on the teachers involved and how this may have effected their lives please?
I was wondering if YOU could disclose the letter sent to me from a retired Education Senior and what she alledged. It bothers me because I am honest and I do care for others. I think that is fair rather than I raise it Are you Happy to do that?

Now *I await 'Your Advise"
Regards

PALE. When I originally made the complaints in 2000 I didn’t include the treatment of my children by teachers. I actually felt a bit sorry for the teachers because I believed that they had their work cut out for them and that the set up of the system made things very difficult indeed. I didn’t think that what they did was right, but in a system that is designed to dumb down the students there is a culture and a practice that is very hard to go against and break.

I didn’t let the District Office know specifics about instances with regard to teacher’s behaviour until after the complaints were ignored and I went to visit the District Office. I have never perused the complaints against the teachers. I only spoke about them once. I only let the District Office know that there was more to this complaint than just educational neglect.

The only person that I have pursued complaints about is the Leader of the Selective schools unit whose name is on all the documents where there are discrepancies and evidence of bias and manipulation and against the bureaucrats at the DET.

The teachers went on with their life as if nothing had happened. They probably were not even told of my complaints. It is my children and family who paid the price.

The kids were more than picked on – they were systematically victimized, bullied, harrassed, neglected, vilified, marked down, put down, humiliated, denied appropriate education and opportunities and denied their rights. It is psychological abuse and psychological abuse is as harmful, and some say even more harmful, than physical abuse. That you can feel nothing for my children and justify it because animals are being abused is very sad indeed.

I had a little difficulty understanding what you were trying to get at. A while ago my computer crashed and I lost everything. So I am sorry but I cant help you with what you request.

Jolanda
I did not say I didn’t care about your children. Please do not take a honest account of my deepest feelings and misuse them.


I mentioned my morals and the way in which I think as I have shared with you before and I was very honest about it. If I didn’t care for you and especially the kids then why was I the only one to offer to help and free legal advice from my family?

If I didn’t care about people in general and especially your children I can assure you I have many other pressing issues. OLO is NOT our Animal Work as such but simply a small area of it.

You are aware the person who contacted my said there were a few teachers who were very upset for along time and some ill over it- She actually stated their lives were destroyed.

I am in a position to know one way or the other however she also said she was seriously concerned for your children and was outraged the department had not taken steps to protect them from mental abuse. (Again I am not alleging anything because I do not know.
That is why I asked you to put up the letter.

I have a copy still here. Would you like me to send it so you could include this information and dispose of any misunderstandings?

I am asking you this because I am concerned for 'You and your Children and fellow posters time and efforts.

I am trying to get some answers for your children. I may love Animals however I am not without compassion.

Nor Am I trying to be unkind because many people may have simply posted the letter and said Jolanda what about this retired School
Masters letter.

So What am I supposed to Do/

Pale- did this person signed their name on the email because I identify myself and I am prepared to support everything I say with evidence. Can the writer support what she says with evidence? Without knowing who she is, why should we believe anything that she says?

This person should be asked which teachers she is talking about because when I first brought the matter to the attention of the District Office in the Year 2000 I focused on the neglect of the education of gifted children, not what some teachers had done or hadn’t done to my kids.

When I did notify the DET that certain teachers were bullying the children and treating them unfairly I actually did it separately to the complaint and it was not lodged as a complaint or a matter to be pursued by anyone. I just wanted to let the DET know what was going on as I thought it would mean that they would be more concerned for the children and their welfare and provide support and counseling. No document produced under FOI refers to any complaint against a teacher.

The initial allegations of bias, victimisation, bullying and corruption were made against bureaucrats in the Selective Schools Unit on 29th December 2002 after we received documents under FOI in relation to my children’s OC applications in the year 2000, 2001 and two Selective High school applications in the year 2002 that showed alarming amounts of evidence of extensive evidence of bias, tampering, discrimination and manipulation.

Further allegations were made in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 after documents produced under FOI in relation to our other children’s school applications and other matters showed clear evidence of systematic bias, victimization, manipulation and discrimination.

Sure there might be a few bureaucrats feeling sick because I pursued complaints but hey there were a few kids and a family very sick too. These bureaucrats were trying to destroy people who were innocent. The DET didn’t want to deal with the issue of my children’s mental abuse because they were to blame and that is the truth

Jolanda

you make intesting reading.

I would love to see evidence that supports what you said below:

"A few weeks later their response was to target my son. They do this so as to create another situation and move the attention away from the situation at hand and confuse things. This wasn't the first time they targeted my son, my children have been targeted relentlessly."

and evidence about

Teachers humiliating my children and making sarcastic comments about my children’s intellect in front of the whole class and continuously criticizing them.

and evidence about

Teachers regularly totally ignoring my children when they are the only kid with their hand up wanting to answer a question and instead making a point to ask them to answer questions when they didn't have their hand up so as to put them on the spot and embarass them.

you claim you can "support everything I say with evidence", would be interested to see what evidence you have to support these claims.

Jolanda,

I wish that you had taken my post in the spirit of advice rather than as a challenge. I'm not debating whether your children are gifted - to be honest I don't care - I'm just saying that your credibility will improve if you prove it rather than bang on about it. Gifted doesn't mean very intelligent. I was streamed in the "opportunity group" at primary school and got a scholarship to a private high school and believe me, no one ever suggested I was "gifted". (Brainy, yes. But then I discovered boys.)

What evidence to you have that your children's test scores were tampered with other than the fact that they didn't achieve as highly as you expected? If you have it, why not post it on your website?

Your highly emotive language is weakening your case. So are clear irrationalities like "Why are so many people happy to deny children their right to be protected from harm?" I think you need to be sensible - obviously no one wants to deny children that right. What people are debating is the veracity of your claims. Likewise: "These bureaucrats were trying to destroy people who were innocent." This sounds extremely unlikely. People need strong motivation - usually money - to risk their whole career in order to "destroy" innocent people. You do not appear to have any evidence to back up this claim at all.

I'm not saying that events as you describe them did or did not happen. I'm saying the reason people on this board doubt you is that you use extremely emotional language and make extreme allegations without backing it up with evidence. If you can't make most people on OLO believe you (who by and large love a conspiracy theory), why would DET? Why don't you consider changing your approach? There is no doubt in my mind it would benefit your children.

Jolanda said to pale

Pale- did this person sign their name ...
Palereplies

Jolanda why are you asking ‘me ' these questions. You were made aware of this by myself only out of much consideration to all sides.

You saw the letter. You already know the answer to this question.
I mean that would have to be major evidence in your favor if a retired Head School master wrote something to discredit you.

Then you would have some 'real proof'- Surely that would be the case- would it not?

If that were me I would have had it up on my site for the whole world to see as an example of how people have treated you unfairly and may I use the term target you and your family.

Instead you choose not to post it- not to address it= and really it’s beyond the pale you ask myself if there was a name on it.

You already know the Answer to that question and the name had a PD on it.

Jolanda quite honestly over years I have tried to help you and I know you will not like me saying this but the ‘truth’ is I have had second thoughts on and off.

The reason I have had second thoughts was by 'your' reactions and responses to offered assistance.

I have kept an eye out over the years when I see your many posts go up and often worried about your children. I think they may be something wrong.

Yes I think the department is slack because they should have checked how these children were going year’s ago by Medico Legal Physicists report.

At least then it would give the department a clear idea if your kids are being abused at school and where their problems mostly lie.

In fact had they been my children that are the FIRST thing I would have done both to gain help for my children and obtain credible evidence to use against who ever.

This method is used by the courts everyday.

I did suggest this to you some time back.

Jolanda Dave here I sympathise with your predicament but is it truly the Ombudsman himself or one of the front desks that have stopped you as I have been fighting DoCS for removing my son nearly 11years ago I have had every representation made on my behalf but the lies just keep rolling out my son has not even received an education he is indigenious & yes the Rudd government can intervene as to the past Howard government as the Federal Gov is responsible for the indigenious also the Fed Gov is responsible for the welfare of all the people all the time but it is pas the buck back & forward while innocent child are the ones who are hurt I could go on forever about the corruption & cover ups but once a Gov Dept is wrong you will find that it is continued attack against yourself until it gets all tangled anyway if you want to contact direct my e-mail address is graysond49@yahoo.com I would be happy to answer any questions direct as to any other that is reading
God Bless all may your Lord shine on you all well
Dave

Hi Jolanda, Hi everyone.

You sing this same song I do. The difference is that you are for unknown reason to me focus on some issues on school children and you Jolanda have not explained me that well. Perhaps it does not matter at all as I initially said. The government in general is negligent and all wrong it happens in our society (I like the most your description of this - Jolanda) it is because we, cannot make decision makers accountable for their decisions. The rest is only the consequence.

What you do, is discuss details of just one aspect of the injustice or government irresponsibility. I do not want to interfere with your discussion but can only add that perhaps when you generalise your issues to: there is no justice, no accountability, therefore whole range of problems proliferate. Our children suffer and also whole society.

I propose to the government the first step in improving the government accountability/proffessionality.

To establish 1800 number open 24/7 for non emergency complaints. Ooperators would notice on database all complaints and someone from public service would be assigned to solve this. All entries be accessible on internet but no identities be allowed (just a code). Than the complainant, and opposition, and the journalists would be able to see the complaint and the result. Let's say it is about the bully problem at particular school, than it would be easily verifiable if was fixed or not. Or if the complaint was a pothole on particular road, it would be easily verifiable. Same with barking dogs or hoon driving loudly in specific area. This way, we society would gain the means to complain and to expect problem solved. There would be a record of all complaints and this way government be seen as doing nothing (large number of not fixed complaints), or large number solved complaints. We would have a feeling that we get the answers (job done) for the money we pay (taxes and charges).

My children are very severely disadvantaged by the government choice and nobody takes any responsibility. It is antisocial system.

PALE. I don't remember what that email said and yes I would like a copy please. Nobody calles themselves a Matron. How can an email from some stranger have any weight about anything. I have ample emails from persons in the Department that have their name where they are accusing me of all sorts of things and nobody takes any notice. Why would an email from a stranger make a difference?

Just with regard to putting the evidence on my blog. I had it there, for ages and it didn't make a difference as nobody was really interested in reading it. People seemed to prefer to just blame me or open discussions by saying that they haven't really read what is on my blog. I took it off when we received documents under FOI that clearly showed a conspiracy to cover up and we wrote to the Department as I thought that that would mean that they would investigate and I really didn't want to have all that on my blog as too many names are mentioned. I thought that for sure they would have to investigate the matter so I took the documents off in anticipation. My complaints were again filed away. I didn't realise that when I put my post back to draft that all the links would be broken. To put them back again is a mamoth task and quite frankly it shouldn't be necessary.

It shouldn't be up to the complainant or the public to investigate the matter or to prove a complaint. I am a parent who has made formal allegations and have witnessed serious flaws in the complaint handling system. Policy and Procedure require that a formal investigation be undertaken. That this cannot be enforced is a serious flaw in the system.

People keep turning back the focus to what happend in school when I am trying to focus on the complaint handling processes used by the system to deal with the complaints as they have denied my family procedural fairness and natural justice and ensured that children are not protected.

dwg. The Ombudsman himself has stopped my family. I provided clear evidence in the first instance of bias and manipulation and then I provided clear evidence of a conspiracy to cover up. Even when I got the evidence that he originally said that he needed to investigate the matter, after taking the DET to the ADT, the Ombudsman said that it was too late and that once he closed a matter it was closed for good. The Ombudsman CHOSE to not investigate the matter and chose to close the complaint stating that he had discretion to do whatever he liked.

I am sorry to hear that you have had to go through this type of ordeal. I can see from what I have experienced that this is a system set up and I despair at the thought of how many innocent children are being mistreated and abused whilst our Government does nothing except look on and make enquiries and write reports.

Can I ask those who post to please focus on the issues at hand and that is the complaint handling process that has been designed by the system. Nobody can turn back time, what we are trying to do is to protect the children for the future. The persons who we allege are responsible have been promoted to postions of even more power - and they are being neither supervised, questioned or challeged.

As to my emotive language, I make no excuses. I am an emotional human being.

Jolanda,

It the complaints are frequent and made up. Why should they get investigated. Post your evidence or cease your lies.

"Can I ask those who post to please focus on the issues at hand and that is the complaint handling process that has been designed by the system."

All systems are open to corruption. However, the levels of complaint and appeal available to you - ending with the Ombudsman, empowered to investigate governmental corruption - is pretty extensive. It seems unlikely each layer is involved in the same conspiracy. To prove that it is, you'll need the clear evidence you keep saying you have. Having not seen it, I can't comment. But good luck to you.

Dear Jolanda,

I must admit that after reading and re-reading all these posts - you are beginning to sound slightly obsessive (putting it politely). You just keep repeating the same things over and over again - you don't answer the questions - with evidence - as I said you just keep repeating yourself. I think that you need counseling - and I am concrned for your children. Listen to the advice Vanilla is giving you - it's sound.

Vanilla the Ombudsman is not empowered to investigate corruption. The Ombudsman is there to take notes and write reports and to help discredit complainants. Take a look at the Ombudsman’s website and have a look at the annual reports and see how many matters were investigated. Less than 1%. The Ombudsman role is to provide a higher level of cover up, the fact that there is no oversight of the Ombudsman’s functions allows the Ombudsman to do whatever he likes.

What part of the fact that the Ombudsman decided to use his discretion and not investigate the matter do you struggle with? He is not required or obligated to investigate anything. What part of the fact that the Ombudsman denied my family impartial and unbiased decisions do you not understand. The Ombudsman reviewed our matter twice when formal complaints were made against him with regard to how he dealt with the complaint in the first instance and we alleged a conspiracy to cover up.

Just because those in the system do not act on complaints doesn't mean that there isn't any evidence. You can believe whatever you want but the fact is that formal allegations of bias and misconduct should be subject to a proper and fair investigation especially when they involve children. This covering up of allegations and complaitns is happening in Education, in Health, in DOCS and in every other Government Department.

Proper and fair investigating of complaints and allegations is what is required to ensure that our Government doesn’t further corrupt and so that the people are protected.

I explained that I am not going to focus on what happened at school or anything else except the way that the DET and the Government have handled the complaints. That is the issue at hand.

Jolanda

It seems clear that there is no evidence that you claim you have.
It seems that you are the one sprending rumours and doing the victimising.

Show your evidence or cease your lies.

Its obvious why you've been labelled a vexatious correspondent.

post your evidence or cease your lies.

Annoyed parent why don't you tell me exactly what you want to see and I will post it.

Be very specific so that we know where we stand. I don't want to post only to be told that it wasn't what you meant or it wasn't enough.

You give me the guidelines, whilst considering the work involved, and I will provide on my blog. It may take a couple of days because I work full time and also have 4 kids to feed and take care of, a house to keep and a small business to look after and run. The scanner is in my eldest daughters room who is doing Year 12 and generally she is studing during the time that I would be able to use it, so I need to find a couple of hours where her scanner/computer is spare. The process of uploading the documents is very slow so on the basis of that, if I know exactly what it will take for you to believe me, then I will post what you say.

Dear Jolanda,

You started this thread seeking the opinions of your OLO posters of this Forum. It seems to me that you've received a substantial response, however you're not prepared to pay any attention to what you're being advised.

You may not like the way that you and your children have been treated - you're convinced that every body is discriminating against you and your children - from their class mates, teachers, schools, the Department of Education, the Government, and the Ombusdman.
Everbody. And you say that the issue of the matter is - you don't like it. You don't like the way your case has been handled - by everyone.

I think your lawyers are the only people that will win out of your case. It will end up costing you a fortune to continue to pursue the matter.

The Ombudsman is well within their right to decline a complaint on the grounds of, for example, that it was frivolous, vexatious, misconceived, or lacking in substance.

You can of course make a request in writing for the matter to be referred to the Anti-Discrimination Tribunal for a public hearing.
And then if you don't like their decision - you can make an appeal against Tribunal decisions to the Supreme Court, but only on a point of law.

I wonder how your children will fit into any educational system after all this comes to a close? Where will they feel they are not being
discriminated against in the future? Who apart from their mother will they ever feel they can trust? These are just some questions that you should consider before you continue on your way.

If the issue at hand concerns the protection of your children - who's going to protect them from you - and what you're doing to them?

Foxy the Ombudsman can choose to not investigate a complaint on the basis of lack of funding. Funding that is conveniently under provided by the Government.

The Ombudsman has never said I was frivilous or vexatious - he just said that he has discretion and he has decided not to investigate. This is despite the fact that there have been clear breaches in the Ombudsmans Act.

The Anti-Discrimination board will not investigate the matter because it is not against the law to discriminate against gifted children.

I am working my way to the Supreme Court but first I have to get the Department to produce the documents that they promised and to honour their agreements. It will save me money in the long run. That matter is being put before the Administrative Decisions Tribunal. I am not using a Solicitor for that, my husband and I are representing our children.

You have this fantasy in your head that the system is honest and has integrity, and their are avenues to get justice and protection for children. Open your eyes, read the papers - the administration of the Government is corrupt and the complaint handling system is designed to cover up.

Sad really because as adults the main concern should be the children. If you think that ignoring my children or telling them to accept their mis-treatment is going to make it better for them and easier for them to cope then you obviously do not know my children. If my husband and I don't stand up and fight for their right to be treated fairly and withou bias then that would mean that by not responding we too would be supporting the bullies. That isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Jolanda


I am concerned the amount of everybodies time.


I am not trying to be nasty but I 'am' concerned for your children

Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 4:19 PM
Subject: re Jolanda challita

Hello

Firstly congratulations on the work you do re Live Export trade.

I have been an observer of the lengthy Jolanda Challita 'saga' and I noted in researching various blogs that on an Andrew Bartlett blog you offered free legal assistance to the Challita's. I found the response you received on that site both discourteous to you and entirely illogical.

I felt it appropriate to afford you the opportunity to challenge a claim
Jolanda has made on a news.com.au blog. A blogger challenged Jolanda on having been offered free legal assistance and she basically denies this offer ever came. I really find her assertion, given your clear efforts
To offer her assistance, very poor. Jolanda is manipulative in the sense that she uses every opportunity to draw attention to herself and I am loath to suggest that any form of discussion should arise (as she has flogged the news.com.au site as equally as any other) however, as suggested, I felt you should be given the chance to respond to her claim she was never offered help.

You will find her post on the Gotcha blog and in this specific blog
Topic. The blog had reached post 57 when I copied the url and her
post(s) would be among the most recent.

http://blogs.news.com.au/news/crime/index.php/news/comments/public_sold_a_pup/

I should point out that I was a former Dept of Education employee (long retired). I am not in anyone's employ and am simply interested, as you are, in various issues raised on the Internet. Whilst I generally maintain a certain cynicism re Dept's I find no particular substance to Jolanda’s claim at all but it is *highly* frustrating to see help being generously offered and her refusing it. You begin to wonder whether she is now more intent on talking as opposed to resolving. That of course is a personal comment and not one I'm asking you to respond to :)

Regards,

Pale you are trying to be nasty and you seem to worry alot about other peoples time. Why should other people's time bother you. Their time belongs to them and if they choose to write in response to what I say then that is their business.

What happened to the email that you said that you were going to send that was supporting me. Why instead of posting that did you post what you did? You should stop searching the internet to put things on this blog to try to discredit me. Surely you have better things to do with your time - like saving the animals maybe!

I don't want to go back to the issue with the free legal advice thing. You know as well as I do that I already had a Solicitor and that our wires got very crossed with regard to what you actually offered and when. It has been done to death. You know as well as I do that we have a completely different take on that matter. You might say that you are not trying to be nasty but clearly you are.

You keep wanting to come across as being concerned for my children but honestly Pale you seem to just want to cause trouble. I can't help but wonder who you are really trying to help? If you were concerned for my children you would agree that the matter should be subject to a proper and fair investigation as per Policy and Procedure require. That way the truth would be told and whoever is to blame and responsible would be found out.

I will wait to hear from Annoyed Parent as to what she/he requires to see so as to prove the claims.

Jolanda

I did send it! I am not being nasty. I could have posted it day one but I read your comments first. Its been a long time.

Many stories on this OLO thread are not what you said.

I am worried for your children and I think your husband should be contacted by some authority. I dont know who.

Yes I am busy. Yes I was busy years ago and I put a lot of time in which if your honest you wont deny.

All I know is after going to heaps of trouble you didnt want to meet the lawyer who was flying to Sydney - and you were none too polite about it.

I wondered why. However being busy I just got on with my lot.

Tell you what I am interested in- The truth.....

Now are your children of Muslim Father? You said they were.

I mention that only as I try to think of a reason why any of this would happen.

Why didnt you just move- or move schools. I have asked you this before.

Why have you not got a Meddico leagel report to confirm your claims.

Jolanda you have been doing this for years. Yes thats your business but I dont want to see anybody else waiste as much time as I did and thats the truth! and what of the poor children.

Tell you the truth I think you may have done a great service to the children everywhere.

Has the department ordered your children to have a Meddico leagal report done through a pych and counciler.

Because if they havent its a discrace one way or the other.

I am not saying you didnt have a problem with a teacher or even two.

I am saying you have blown it out of all portion.

Sorry its not what you wanted to hear.

Hi Jolanda

I would like to see something that proves one of the below acusations from yourself.

few weeks later their response was to target my son. They do this so as to create another situation and move the attention away from the situation at hand and confuse things. This wasn't the first time they targeted my son, my children have been targeted relentlessly."

and evidence about

Teachers humiliating my children and making sarcastic comments about my children’s intellect in front of the whole class and continuously criticizing them.

and evidence about

Teachers regularly totally ignoring my children when they are the only kid with their hand up wanting to answer a question and instead making a point to ask them to answer questions when they didn't have their hand up so as to put them on the spot and embarass them.

you have said you can "support everything I say with evidence",

Jolanda said

Why should other people's time bother you.

pale replies
Because I am not like you I respect other peoples time Jolanda and I find it an insult that you couldnt care less anout other peoples time.

Jolanda said

What happened to the email that you said that you were going to send that was supporting me.

Pales replies
Ar, More twists and turns. See this is how you try to fool people hoping they wont pick up on it. Jolanda if you will please go back I said this-

I was wondering if 'YOU' would comments on the teachers involved and how this may have effected their lives please?
I was wondering if YOU could disclose the letter sent to me from a retired Education Senior and what she alledged.
Thats not saying the letter was supportive Jolanda. I simply offered you a chance to explain.

I went on to ask you if I sent YOU a copy as you claimed to have lost yours on your crashed computer and not remember the letter...

Jolanda -I put it to you, that you have further attempted to mis lead readers buy saying "I searched the net looking for evidence against yopu bla../.".

Its clear it was a letter that came to me out of the blue.

It was an invitation to enter the news thread or whatever it was and challange you on your claims nobody had offered you legal help.

Had I of wanted to be nasty I would have. I did not enter the News link. I couldnt see how that would help the children to be honest.

Jolanda said
You know as well as I do that I already had a Solicitor and that our wires got very crossed with regard to what you actually offered and when.
Pale comments
I know no such thing. Otherwise why was I responding to your posting asking for help?

I think that in lieu of the key word 'evidence' we should pick a new key word.

'Vexatious.'

Jolanda: "The Ombudsman has never said I was frivilous or vexatious - he just said that he has discretion and he has decided not to investigate."

Well duh. When the other departments labelled you vexatious, you launched a vexatious pogrom to find out why you were labelled vexatious.

Jolanda, sometimes you can be right in theory but wrong in practice. Tell me, if you're on some moral crusade to help your children, and they cop flak because of it, at what point will you be willing to say 'enough it enough' I'm making things worse?

Is it only when you succeed, even if your children wind up battered along the way? It's a sad fact of life, that sometimes we have to accept our losses and move on, because clinging to pride can hurt other people.

But I don't think you'll ever let yourself give up. You're stuck in the "why should I? I'm right" mantra, which unfortunately, ignores the "this is going to make life tougher for my kids" one.

I think your hysterics will just get more and more shrill as you alienate more and more people in the public services.

With each alienation and annoyed civil servant, you'll feel all the more justified in your conspiracy, but you've created a self-fulfilling prophecy that now fuels itself.

And its your children, who you claim to want to help, who are at the centre of the maelstrom.

Hi Foxy,

you make some great points, unfortunately I am sure Jolanda will not take in.

My opinion is that Jolanda does not want this resolves because it gives her attention and also makes her children believe she is the only one that they can trust or depend on. She obviously tells them that nobody cares everybody sticks up for the DET and not them!

It give her maybe a sense of worthiness,

her children and maybe even her husband praise her which in turn ecourages her to continue this as it make her feel valued, intelligent, best mother in the world, no children love their mother as much as mine love me, no mother loves her children as much as i love mine somewhat martyr like, ( I will die for me children,)

Martyr :
Usually has
Long-term problem
Stuck in their problem
Rights violated by others
Chooses to remain in problem situation
Complains all the time
Frequently has insight into the problem
Frequently knowingly plays an active part in the problem


anyway thats my 2 cents worth

Here we go again. People focusing on trying to discredit me rather than focusing on the unfair and unjust complaing handling practices used by Government Departments and the neglect, bullying and victimisation of children by those in and with power.

Annoyed parent. I am anxious to hear what it is that you need to see for you to accept my families allegations.

"Here we go again. People focusing on trying to discredit me rather than focusing on the unfair and unjust complaing handling practices used by Government Departments and the neglect, bullying and victimisation of children by those in and with power."

Just out of interest, why do you think this happens? Your intent, I assume, is to get people questioning the amount of corruption within the different layers of government and the scrutineers of government. Instead, you seem to end up (on this and, I note, another thread on OLO, and on your blog) with people questioning your evidence and motives. What's your theory on why that happens?

Hi Jolanda

I would like to see something/anything that proves one of the below acusations from yourself.

few weeks later their response was to target my son. They do this so as to create another situation and move the attention away from the situation at hand and confuse things. This wasn't the first time they targeted my son, my children have been targeted relentlessly."

and evidence about

Teachers humiliating my children and making sarcastic comments about my children’s intellect in front of the whole class and continuously criticizing them.

and evidence about

Teachers regularly totally ignoring my children when they are the only kid with their hand up wanting to answer a question and instead making a point to ask them to answer questions when they didn't have their hand up so as to put them on the spot and embarass them.

you have said you can "support everything I say with evidence",
Posted by Annoyed Parent,

An interesting question is to ask why people attack and discredit others when they are trying to protect and get justice for thier children.

A big problem in the world today, or one of a few big problems, is child abuse. Child abuse takes many forms, sexual, physical, psychological, emotional. There is an epidemic of child abuse. When there are alot of people abusing children the last thing that they want is for children to be seen as honest and truthful so these people are always trying to present children as liars but in reality it is a myth that children are liars.

Here is some interesting reading material.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/12/2160172.htm

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/01whistle.html

http://bulliedacademics.blogspot.com/2007/05/anonymous-said_06.html

Annoyed parent & Ors if you are not all the same one. I will not give you any evidence of what happened in school as I would have to provide you with my children’s medical reports or have my children tell you what happened. I also am not going to post the letters to the school regarding the witch hunt. I have already told you all that what happened at school is not part of my families complaint – It happened it is over, I bring it up for the sake of understanding how the situation of the victimisation came about and developed nothing more.

Our allegations are in relation to the mishandling and cover up of our complaints of bias, neglect, victimization, vilification bullying and misconduct by Departmental staff against children.

If you really want to know the truth I will post the evidence of the bias, manipulation of test scores and documents and the misrepresentation of the facts by the Selective Schools Unit to the Selection Commitees and appeals panel. If you really want to know the truth I will also post evidence of the cover up.

If all you want to do is present my children as liars then you can talk to yourself.

Jolanda

just like you do not like to be discresited nor does others. You write about teachers abusing your children, if you are going to accuse teachers or DET of child abuse. You must have evidence before you claim such things.

You said you have evidence for everything you say. Your children telling what happned is not evidence. Medical records are not evidence. Everybody can play the victim.

Stick to test scores and loose the rest. My advise you loose credabilty by adding frivilous and exagerated claims.

"When there are alot of people abusing children the last thing that they want is for children to be seen as honest and truthful so these people are always trying to present children as liars but in reality it is a myth that children are liars."

So, are you saying that you believe people do not take your claims seriously because they are child abusers? Or (presumably) because they are protecting child abusers? Do you believe that's why I and Foxy and Annoyed Parent are questioning the veracity of your claims? Can you see any other reason why people might question your claims?

Jolanda

I`m one victim of having helped you giving up valuable time that your right- should have been put into the animals.

So here’s the thing. How about you give me consent to post some of your long email you send me.

I will use up the allowed number of posts on this thread and just post them'

Then Vallina Foxy Annoyed parent Turnrightleft {who for memory is an x Journalist )(If they can be bothered) Can go though your old claims and new new ones.

The emails are ONLY about this matter as far as I recall.

I still own an investigation company Jolanda but I will be hanged! If I am spending more money giving this nonsense to anybody because we have real problems and real people like aboriginal people who need and 'appreciate' our time.

I will NOT be participating in this thread other than to see if you are prepared and indeed would like me to do that.

Mind You I do wish the same very clever people would put their time into stuff I would like to post on Muslim Leaders and how Halal will affect everybody in Australia.

Remember the Halal thread you started and everybody howled you down.

You’re bright Jolanda so I assume your kids are too.

You just need to get some positive because Jolanda it’s unfair to you your kids others who have tried to help.

I understand why you have told a few porkpies.

You want to get the @ but Jolanda you know the Government warned you they would Sue you for defamation=

They Will= and you will loose your house. Do you want that?

Or they will issue a section 25 and put you in a mental hospital

You think you know they are corrupt.

" You don’t know "half of it""

So far they have ignored you but play with the big boys and you and your family will get burnt IMOP

Badly( Walk away while you can is last my advise )

Now let me know about posting your letters re this matter.

PALE - Post whatever you like. You know that I do not have copies to be able to verify anything. But you do what you think it is right.

Yes the Crown Solictor threatened to sue me with defamation twice and twice I asked them to be more specific as to exactly who I was defaming and what I was saying that was defamatory. I advised them that once they advised me of exactly what I was saying that was defamatory, I would review what I wrote and if it was defamatory I would remove the material and make a retraction. Of course I reminded them that truth was a defence to defamation as was if you thought it was in the public interest and twice they did not respond to my request.That was well over a year ago.

If the DET or the Government have something on me I say go for it. Did you ever stop to wonder why they have done nothing? Maybe you should take a minute to consider that.

Jolanda

Honestly I have better and more important things to do than waste time posting to you.

I`ve been around the block too many times and in too many enquires to not know when somebody is trying to verbal each person they correspond with.

Joland said -

If the DET .. Pale replies

Well Jolanda would have thought the answer to that question would have been clear even to you.
I have said twice now before on this thread that you are proof their is little accountability in DET.

They are public servants which means they are 'slack'
No conspiracy Jolanda just plain slack.

The fact they have not demanded the children undergo phy medico legal reports and sit on their is all the proof I need.

Its clear these kids must be under pressure and I think its YOU.

As to your reply’ post what you like-‘Jolanda that’s it not giving consent to post your private emails.

In hindsight I would not be uncomfortable in trusting you not to turn around a sue me or cause a drama because jolanda IMOP your a drama queen.

You thrive for some strange reason on all the attention you have worked so hard to get.
Nor do I believe your husband has a CLUE what you get up to if indeed he even exists.
Perhaps I should be more polite but honestly its hard knowing the time you steal from people with your rubbish.


Perhaps others have more patience- I`m all out.
I am sorry- Really sorry I couldn’t help but you don’t need legal help you need mental help IMOP

I really do not think I will return to this thread but I won’t say one hundred percent because people say things then end up doing another.
(Maybe I had a good teacher)

I pity you but enough really IS enough.

Good idea Pale leave this thread because you keep going on about how you are wasting your time and yet you keep coming back but at no time do you actually connect the issues. You just want to believe what you want to believe.

If there is no accountability in Government, as you agree and say, then you would not be suprised that they have covered up the complaints and not investigated them. If these complaints have not been investigated then Policy and Procedure has been breached and codes of conducts have been breached and children are not protected.

Whether it is true or not is up to an investigation to determine, not up to whether you believe it or not. Just because you don't want to believe that public servants, who are humans, can be involved in a conspiracy to cover up bias prejudice and misconduct doesn't mean that it cannot happen.

It is interesting how if I am agreeing with you on different issues/threads you call me bright, but on this thread you say that I have mental problems. Sure some might think that if you fight the Government you must be mad, but let me tell you something when people do the wrong thing by children they are going to have to know that that this child/dren has a mother and/or a father and these parents would be failing in their duty of care if they did nothing to protect their children and fight for justice and their rights.

For somebody who wants to get people to involve themselves in saving the animals your constant going on about wasting and/or stealing time helping another is not going to help recruit people to your cause. Why should people WASTE THEIR TIME helping save the animals when there are so many worse things in the world, like child abuse and neglect for instance.

Jolanda

I have assisted many people with complaints involving Government departments which is why we offered to help you.
We daily slug it out with Federal Government and have no problem standing up to both Governments for the right cause.

We are very concerned about the assistance needed for aboriginal kids that are in far more need than yours IMOP.

Yes we offered to help you because you at first caught my eye but your story has more holes in it than swiss cheese and I resnt the time waisted TBRO

If you think people waiste their time trying to help animals9 Or they shouldnt) it goes to the very bone of your character( or lack of)

Millions of Animals being kept in cages and having their eyes pulled out while still alive,. enduring trips in cramped conditions in 50% heat without water and food most of the time is far worse than anything that is happening in regards to your Frivolous complaints.
The world doesnt revolve around just you.

Now Thats is your real problem IMOP.

The fact you couldnt care less about anything other than you you you is really sad for your children.

No doubt they will have problems gropwing up a without being self centetred and have problems mixing and making friends.- (and getting on with school teachers who simply treat them as one of the class.)

Remember this Jolanda little of what your saying now adds up to the information you originally forwared actually nothing TBO

PALE. Why dont' you be specific with regard to the holes that you see in relation to my families matter. What have you actually seen, from what I recall you have on many occasions said that you have not read my blog. So why don't you tell me where you see the holes and we can go from there.

My story hasn't changed PALE. I have been saying the same things for years. You see I am telling the truth.

I have never trusted you PALE, I didn't trust you when you first made contact with me and I do not trust you now. Your only interest in contacting me and acting like you were interested in helping was because you wanted me to help you with the issue with the animals and protest in Sydney on your behalf. Remember I said I couldn't I had too much on my plate. You can say whatever you like PALE at the end of the day when the complaint handling system denies children and parents procedural fairness and natural justice then there is an avenue for abuse. This avenue needs to be closed.

Bullying and victimisation in education is not limited to NSW and it is not limited to students and parents. There is a culture of bullying in Education. Even teachers become targets.

Bad Apple Bullies webiste

http://www.badapplebullies.com/news.htm

Col Rouge

'I could (and I am not) suggest Bronwyn is suffering an “acute anxiety and abandonment disorder “ from her comment “but you're responding to others so why not to me?” I repeat I am not making that suggestion, merely illustrating the stupidity of armchair psychology.'

You can repeat all you like Col Rouge, nothing will change the fact now that you have put the words out there. Thank you very much for that, I'm really glad to have been of assistance to you in making a point!

The reason I specifically asked Jolanda to respond to me (and if you were to follow my posting history you would see I have never done that before or since to anyone else) was that she was busy repeating her same old mantra to several posters who had posted after me and I could see that she was going to completely ignore the point I had raised which went very directly to the irrationality of her whole debate.

She states very clearly on her website that Selective Schooling should be abolished, a position with which I and many others would whole-heartedly agree, and yet she is spending all this time and effort trying to get her children selectively schooled. It's a fundamental contradiction that I felt she should have addressed, and which she still hasn't, especially if she expects us to take the time to understand her situation.

Like I suspect most others on this thread I have since given up on getting through to Jolanda, who seems hell-bent on pursuing a lost cause whatever the harmful ramifications for her children, but I'm not letting your little dig at me pass without comment. It was completely unfair and unfounded and did nothing to add to the debate. The point you were trying to make could have been done without resorting to personal attack. Hopefully next time you'll leave me right out of it!

If I missed responding to your post Bronwyn then I apologize

The reason that I believe that Selective Schools should be abolished is because whilst they do provide a better academic environment for those who get in, those who miss out are neglected and denied an academic learning environment and are even defamed on the basis that they didn’t get in to Selective Schools so therefore they mustn’t be gifted.

Given that I have clear evidence that the SSU is manipulating scores and applications and exercising bias and prejudice in selecting students for these schools and given that the Selection procedures are grossly unfair as the playing field isn’t level, as some students are competing from private schools and some are being extensively coached for the test, then I believe that these schools are doing more harm than good.

Sure my children have sought a place but that was only because their identified educational and social needs were being seriously neglected in the comprehensive system and they were becoming sick and depressed and Selective Schools is what the DET presented as the schools they had to cater for gifted students needs. The comprehensive schools said that they didn’t have the funding or resources to cater for my kids.

Students should not to have to compete for appropriate education, as it should be available to all. They should remove this unhealthy and unjust competition that allows for bias and corruption and just makes coaching colleges rich and skews results. Public schools should be set up to cater for all students at all levels. It is a waste of money to spend millions in selection procedures that are unfair and corrupted. That money should be spent on catering for all students in local schools.

Jolanda

Without commenting on the validity of your case and getting back to your original comments about the complaints process itself, something I think that many do not realise about the powers of the Commonwealth Ombudsman (CO) is that they are not determinative. That is the CO does not have the power to substitute a different view or interpretation than offered by the department being complained about, the CO powers are of recommendation only.

The agencies/departments being investigated can choose not to accept any recommendations the Commonwealth Ombudsman might make in any case.

And there are limitations on what the Ombudsman can investigate.

So the fault is with the system in which these oversight agencies work (not only the CO). What is needed is a body that has legislative power to overturn previous decisions should evidence indicate that it is warranted.

The CO can only operate within the framework that has been provided by government so it is at this level that lobbying for change should be made.

Bronwyn,

Don’t upset yourself after Col Rouge.

He was telling us on another forum he’s actually had to wipe wash re paint the front of his house on three occasions due to paint attacks, hilarious.

That brought a grin to our faces up here so at least the comment wasn’t wasted.

To you Jolanda I say this. Anybody who thinks as you said = Jolanda Said =
Why should people WASTE THEIR TIME helping save the animals when there are so many worse things in the world, like child abuse and neglect for instance.
Posted by Jolanda, Saturday, 1 March 2008 6:42:08 AM
Pale replies
I can only say to you Jolanda while this obtuse attitude towards animal cruelty is not unique it is without a doubt the destruction of the world.
As for being a good parent how could you be? To teach your children compassion for Animals and other creatures we share this earth with should be a fundamental law if people don’t have the basic sensitivity to care.

I am utterly disgusted by your comments.

Perhaps you should read Pelicans many post under the animal liberation threads you might learn something.
My last free advice to you would be not force me back to this thread.
Your right this time would be better spent helping the animals.

Pelican I have tried bringing the attention to the fact that Legislation prohibits questions from being asked about 'particular conduct' and that particular conduct is not defined in the Act but that it means bias, misconduct, corruption and conspiracies to cover up. Nobody seems to care. It seems that people don't care what happens to others, they need to wait until it happens to them.

If you can give me any pointers on how I can address this I would be very grateful because I have tried every avenue and every angle possible and nobody with power seems to have the power or will to do anything and the Law seems to be set up to protect the criminal and give them all the rights. It matters not if the victims/targets are children.

PALE. Your posts don't make sense. Are you trying to tell me that you tried to help somebody who was anti-helping animals? You know as well as I do that I fully support the push to stamp out animal cruelty and have done so on many threads. I wrote what I wrote to give you a dose of your own medicine. It seems that you don't see a problem with you saying that people are wasting their time on a blog directed at trying to protect my children from being victimized, bullied, oppressed and treated unfairly but when somebody presents to you that people might not be to keen to help you as with your attitude they could very well present a similar thought about helping animals - you present them as the worse thing in the world? Why is helping animals good and helping children bad?

I am in the process of putting the evidence on my blog. It should be ready by tonight.

This matter requires investigation

Your accusing the the Ombudsman of a conspiracy.

pelican, can encourage despite evidence
=Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 4:19 PM
Subject: re Jolanda challita

Hello

Firstly congratulations on the work you do re Live Export trade.

I have been an observer of the lengthy Jolanda Challita 'saga' and I noted in researching various blogs that on an Andrew Bartlett blog you offered free legal assistance to the Challita's. I found the response you received on that site both discourteous to you and entirely illogical.

I felt it appropriate to afford you the opportunity to challenge a claim
Jolanda has made on a news.com.au blog. A blogger challenged Jolanda on having been offered free legal assistance and she basically denies this offer ever came. I really find her assertion, given your clear efforts
To offer her assistance, very poor. Jolanda is manipulative in the sense that she uses every opportunity to draw attention to herself and I am loath to suggest that any form of discussion should arise (as she has flogged the news.com.au site as equally as any other) however, as suggested, I felt you should be given the chance to respond to her claim she was never offered help.

You will find her post on the Gotcha blog and in this specific blog
Topic. The blog had reached post 57 when I copied the url and her
post(s) would be among the most recent.

http://blogs.news.com.au/news/crime/index.php/news/comments/public_sold_a_pup/

I should point out that I was a former Dept of Education employee (long retired). I am not in anyone's employ and am simply interested, as you are, in various issues raised on the Internet. Whilst I generally maintain a certain cynicism re Dept's I find no particular substance to Jolanda’s claim at all but it is *highly* frustrating to see help being generously offered and her refusing it. You begin to wonder whether she is now more intent on talking as opposed to resolving. That of course is a personal comment and not one I'm asking you to respond to :)

Regards,

Since PALE keeps wanting to present me as though I do not what this matter resolved and that I didn’t accept free legal help I feel it is necessary to put my side of the story.

Pale is located in another state. We came across each other on Andrew Bartlett’s blog and communicated. PALE offered some free legal advice. Problem was that the Solicitors were based in Queensland. I was advised that the Solicitors were coming up to Sydney for a very important hearing and that they may have one hour to spare in the middle of the hearing to see me. I was told many times how very busy they were. I was concerned because one hour in the middle of a big hearing for a case like mine isn’t going to address anything as the matter is involved and extensive. I advised Pale that I already had a Solicitor etc, but in any event in order not to be rude or to appear to ungrateful I waited to hear when the Solicitors were coming to Sydney and whether in fact they would have the opportunity and would want to see me. I heard nothing. In the meantime PALE had contacted me in relation to protesting in Sydney with regard to issues to do with the mistreatment of animals by telephone, we had spoken a few times and we had been sending emails.

Then I find a post on Andrew Bartlett’s blog criticizing me for turning down free legal advice and presenting me as a person who didn’t want these issues resolved. It was presented that three emails had been sent to me and that I didn’t respond to any. Of course I didn’t receive any of these emails as if I did I would have responded. Instead of ringing me to see what was going on as I had always responded before and to advise me of the details PALE preferred to write a nasty post on Andrew Bartlett’s blog about me.

Education – Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better

Jolanda

"their identified educational and social needs were being seriously neglected in the comprehensive system"

I find this hard to believe. Admittedly I'm not familiar with the NSW system, but having spent many years working in state education in other states, in my experience school principals and the vast majority of teachers do all they can to cater to children with special needs. I just don't think you went about gaining their co-operation in the right way to begin with.

You seem to have backed yourself into a corner with your current fight, but it's never too late to make a fresh start. Is there another state school in your area you can try? Even if you have tried all those that are accessible to you in the past, they may well have new administration and teachers since you last had contact with them and you could find them more inclined and able to help you this time.

Forget the bitter past and start afresh. Learn from your past mistakes and don't repeat them. It's your only hope to salvage something from the mess you're in now. I know you don't want to listen to this sort of advice but you did put your personal problems out there in the public realm so you have to be prepared to hear all views.

Jolanda - as Vanilla has pointed out, would it be accurate of me to say, you're alienating more people then you're persuading?

Ever thought of changing your approach? toning down the rhetoric and hysteria, upping the evidence?
Sounding less like a hysterical mother who is annoyed her wondrous gifted bundles of light could be perceived as anything less than perfect sensitive brilliant angels?
Perhaps sounding more like someone who has collected a number of bullet point, referenced examples of where the system has gone wrong, where there is corroborating evidence aside from your blatantly and understandably biased views?

I'd also suggest that you stop making comments like: "An interesting question is to ask why people attack and discredit others when they are trying to protect and get justice for thier children"
Or: "If all you want to do is present my children as liars"

Jolanda, the first comment reads as though people are attacking you just because you want to stand up for your kids.

Perhaps the answer to the question is that people just find your approach biased and ugly. It's not that you're standing up for your kids, it's that you're biased and refuse to accept that maybe, just maybe, you're not being objective about this.

It's the way you're doing it. I'm assuming nobody on these forums has had any contact with your children. Therefore, they're only responding to you and your approach.

Nobody wants to present your kids as liars, what possible motivation is there? People just believe that your approach is likely to be doing them more harm than good and put simply, they don't believe your wild allegations.

Sometimes the bottome line is - nothing more can be done.

After many years in the Commonwealth Public Service I have learnt a few things:

1. It is very easy for someone to become a serial pest even if they have a valid complaint and have tried all available avenues.

2. Sometimes public servants do all they can to help but are constricted by jurisdictional factors and the legislation. Even the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet will just check information out with the relevant department if someone has made a complaint about the handling of an issue. On occasion a letter to the PM can at least bring about another look at the issue, unless you have already written before or if it is a State matter they will generally just refer it.

3. Your local MP does not have any real power other than to act on your behalf in a letter to the PM or relevant Minister. He/she can write the Attorney-General on your behalf outlining your situation and asking for a review of the relevant legislation that might be impeding the complaints process. The Australian Law Reform Commission will only act on the advice of the AG.

4. The media is probably your best bet if you have tried all other avenues.

5. AND now the part you may not want to hear. If you have done all that you can do and the legislation does not allow you to pursue a different line of attack (so to speak) you may just have to accept that sometimes you can't win the war, we are lucky if we win a few battles along the way.

6. There are always two (or more) sides to a story and you believe your side to be true and accurate (I am not judging one way or the other) but the other side probably thinks the same. It is human nature to protect your children but it is also human nature to protect your position and these teachers/DET may truly believe they have done no wrong.

Later this afternoon I will be putting some evidence on my blog.

For those who think that I have always written in an emotional and emotive manner. Think again. I was emotional and very upset so I had a friend who was not directly involved write the letters at the begining and they were very matter of fact. It didn't make a difference it actually made it easier for them to cover up. The process is set up to cover up and discredit the complainant. Nothing makes a difference because the system is corrupted and people do not care.

Now I am fed up, upset and angry and I have justifiable good reason to feel this way. It shouldn't matter how I present. When Policy and Procedure require that matters be investigated they should be investigated, not covered up.

I will continue to fight for my children's right to be treated fairly and without bullying and discrimination. I will continue for as long as it takes. We live in a Democracy not a third world country.

We live in a Democracy not a third world country.
Jolanda,
At times I wonder. Anyhow, we do actually have a democratic system, your problems are proof. You are outnumbered by bureaucrats so you are actually the minority & have to accept the majority's decision. You can't get anymore democratic than that, can you ?
I very much feel for you because I am going through the same nonsense with Qld Health. The bureaucrats can't afford to grant you any justice because of the structure of the system.
You see, the Public service is like a Domino set & they can't allow to let the first block to fall onto the second. So, no matter how morally right you are, even the most corrupt & incompetent official has the support of Premiers & Ministers rather than you, the victim. That's democracy at work.

Jolanda,
I am truley stunned by your run down that pale only offered you a one hour meeting in Sydney.

Jolanda there was a lot of foot work down to arrange that and it was just to kick things off.

One hour with a barrister is not to thumb your nose at.(Free)
If he thought he had a case he could get up on he would have then run with it at no cost to you.

I am not going to sit here and write a list of everything else that was done and what would be the point.

I tell you what I will do however. I well ensure this matter is now properly investigated .

I think it in everbodies interest from yourself and children the school the teachers the Government.

After all to the recently made formal allegations against the Ombudsman school teachers now pale of a conspiracy to cover up allegations of bias, victimisation, neglect and corruption aimed at children.

The cover up you said is in relation to formal allegations that my family has made against the Department of Education.

I hope it works out in a way to bring peace to all involved and better yours and the childrens lives along with everybody else who has been involved with assisting you and in any way with this matter.
Amen

Pale I didn't say ONLY in the way you are presenting. I said it in the context of the fact that my families case is very involved and you told me that you hadn't looked at my website and you kept telling me about how busy the Solicitors and you were and what a big case they were involved in. I couldn't see how trying to fit us in inbetween a big court case would be good for the case that the Barrister was working on or for that matter anything else. But like I said I would have attended and been grateful for any help but I never got your emails and I was never informed. I wasn't thumbing my nose at anything.

I have posted some information and documents on my blog so as to present some evidence of one instance of manipulation and bias and also of the DET's conspiracy to cover up. There is of course a whole lot more.

I thank you for your good wishes and hope you can help to have this matter investigated as that is what we have always asked for - a proper and fair investiation into our families allegations and complaints. I also wish you all the best of luck in your endeavours to save the animals from the cruelty and slack behaviour that we see and experience in this world.

Education - Keeping them HOnest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our children deserve better

Hi Jolanda

I would like to see something/anything that proves one of the below acusations from yourself.

few weeks later their response was to target my son. They do this so as to create another situation and move the attention away from the situation at hand and confuse things. This wasn't the first time they targeted my son, my children have been targeted relentlessly."

and evidence about

Teachers humiliating my children and making sarcastic comments about my children’s intellect in front of the whole class and continuously criticizing them.

and evidence about

Teachers regularly totally ignoring my children when they are the only kid with their hand up wanting to answer a question and instead making a point to ask them to answer questions when they didn't have their hand up so as to put them on the spot and embarass them.

you have said you can "support everything I say with evidence",

Annoyed parent I have already addressed that matter with you. I have the evidence by way of correspondence with the schools and by way of medical reports and by way of my children's evidence. The allegations have never been denied by the schools. I am not however going to post it because you may not have understood but I have clearly stated that I am not pursuing the issues that happened at the school with teachers. My formal complaints relate to the actions by the Selective Schools Unit and Educational Measurement Directorate initially and then the covering up of my families allegations and complaints by the DET etc.

I believe that what happened at school is a symptom of a bigger problem higher up in the hierarchy and that is where I am focused and that is what needs to be addressed.

Have you managed to look at my blog as I have posted evidence on there in relation to biased, flawed and manipulated processes and with regard to the conspiracy to ignore my families complaints and cover up.

Aren't you interested in reading the truth?

I am really hoping that the lack of posting on this thread following my posting of evidence on my blog has been because people are genuinely busy and haven't had time to read what I have written on my blog. Rather than they dont' want to know and don't care.

From my angle and from my experience it seems that the conspiracy to cover up extends beyond the DET, Government and flows onto the people.

The evidence is pretty clear that there has been bias, misconduct, manipulation, neglect and discrimination. These are children. Where is the outrage? Surely people do not accpet this in our Education system? Surely that breaches our rights?

Why do people turn a blind eye to corruption?

Education – Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
Our Children deserve better

Get help, Jolanda - and not from a lawyer.

Hi Jolanda,

I have read your evidence, This evidence has already been on your blog and its my understanding that this particular problem/issue was investigated and an mistake in calculation was found. Your daughter was then offered a place in selective school where I believe she is today. Is this correct.

I would like to see something that hasnt been looked into or investigated.

I know you will say that it hasnt been investigated , but they have maybe not to your liking but an error was found and your daughter is now in selective. Notice you didnt post that side of things. Show me something I havent seen.

Annoyed parent. I think I am starting to realise who you are.

The facts are that there has never been an investiation. What part of that are you struggling with?

The facts are also that whilst my daughter managed to get an offer into her second choice of Selective School as the SGG selection commitee offered her a place, we appealed the decision not to place her into her first choice as she wanted to be educated outside the Sutherland and St George Shire so that she could move away from the victimisation and hopefully could start afresh and feel safe. There was no investigation before she was offered the place and no investigation afterwards. You see my daughter appealed the decision not to place her into Sydney Girls High and as you can see from the Appeal analysis prepared by the Selective SChools Unit they present incorrect scores and a misrepresentation of facts and biased personal opinions to the appeals panel on which to base thier decision. They didn't want her to be educated outside the region so they presented incorrect scores and information so that she would miss out. Our complaint was that the appeals process was also flawed and corrupted.

It may be that my daughter still got access into a Selective School but her appeal was manipulated, tampered with and flawed. This breaches the code of conduct and Departmental policy. It is also a case that my sons applications for Selective High SChool placement were also manipulated and tampered with and he completely missed out. When I get time I will also post his. I posted my daughters because it was so clear that the scores have been misrepresented but you obviously need more so I will oblige.

Jolanda,

with coments like

"They didn't want her to be educated outside the region so they presented incorrect scores and information so that she would miss out""

I tend to agree with CJ! get help

dont bother posting anything else. I thinks we know, that no matter what anybody trys to point out, its goint to be fruitless.

goodbye

Annoyed parent. You still dont' seem to want to understand or accept that there is a conspiracy against my family. My children and family are being target and victimised and have been for years. I realise that it doens't fit into the picture that you want to present of the DET but the facts are the facts and the evidence is clear. If we had of had the money we would have left the state/country but it isn't as easy as that when you have 4 children, family and a small business.

You justify the evidence. You ignore the evidence. You only believe what you want to believe. I will say it again you are not interested in protecting the children and therefore you are just like them.

I think it is those of you who insist on attacking me and ignoring the allegations and comlaints that should go and see someone as you are missing something very important in your makeup and that is the desire to want to protect children from harm.

Best interest of the child should always be of paramount concern. No adult should allow or ignore the covering up of allegations of child psychological abuse, neglect, bullying and victimisation of children otherwise they are failing in their duty of care.

I will be posting on my blog Annoyed Parent but I realise that all I will hear is either abuse or silence.

It doesn't matter to me, I have a goal and a mission to expose and fight back.

There is a reason why child abuse is rampant in this country and the evidence is right here on this thread.

Here is an interesting link about Ministers and people in power ignoring allegations of child abuse.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23312112-5006009,00.html

They just asked the accused for his take, he said nothing happened and they said oh okay. All the victims must be lying.

This situation of course takes things a step further as it is sexual abuse but at the end of the day the process of just accepting whatever a person with power says and ignoring allegations and complaints is the same.

Jolanda
I said I wouldnt be back. Just was curious about something.

If this was investigated and the findings were to be in your favour what would 'your' perfect outcome be?

In other words what would you want to come out of it?

I do find it interesting your site has its been let to go so long.

Dont wish to get into any verbal debates with you. I would like to say you were 'wrong' about the barrister and also about the ammount of time that went into this.

Felt annoyed . I felt it was not appreciated.

That said,- I its easy to be uptight and unreasonable without intention when your under pressure.
You 'are' difficult to work with Jolanda 'even if you are unaware'.

I feel 'one of your problems you have little knowledge whats usauable as evidence.IMOPThats normal.

The other problem as I see it is there are far worse things happening everywhere so people while in the ast first feel sorry for you they turn because they think- Get over it- basically I suppose.

They feel you are demanding they spend all their time reading your web page.

They ask questions and want immediate answers- You in return say read the web page which is confusing and lacks order.

Nobody has that sort of time. I shouldnt be writing now.

Others are just mean spirted by nature and enjoy putting the boot in for no reason. olo is Full of these people as well.
We cop it and lets face it we are just a bunch of self funded animal lovers.

I did contact the Ministers office as I said I would. Asked for this to be properly investigated.

I find the whole thing as I told the Ministers office as an example of the fact that they are slack.

I mean if your complaint is unfounded why allow this to go on.

PALE - you ask what I am seeking so I am going to respond.

I want a public apology. Our name has been dragged through the mud, we have been blackmarked and this needs to be addressed.
I want those directly responsible made to answer and held accountable and removed from their positions of power.
I want my children to be offered the schools that were taken from them.
I want to be re-imbursed for what it has cost us and it has been significant with Catholic school fees for 3 children, legal fees, medical fees, psychologist fees, uniforms and many other expenses that were incurred, and are still being incurred as a direct result of the actions or lack of action by the Department. We are out of pocket and have gone financially backwards because of what has been done to us.
I want my children to be offered full scholarships to University for their degree of choice. And there is no need to panic none of them want to become anything overly acadmemic they had their academic passion drained out of them. Had this not have happened and my children had of had their educational needs met they would very likely have received scholarships in their own right.

IF the public doesn't believe that my children and family deserve compensation for what the have put us through and the anguish and despair that we have suffered then we are prepared to cop that sweet.

I do not think that we are being unreasonable in our requests.

For years I have been answering people on blogs and I see a pattern. The majority who ask questions don't really want to know the truth, they just want to discredit me to turn the attention from the truth. My time is also valuable. My website is confusing because the issues are confusing as the DET ensured that we were targeted so many times that there were so many issues that we didn't know how to present. Obviously their tactics work.

Jolanda

Interesting answer to my question .

Tall order an apology from any Government dep. In all fairness I cant see a problem with your wish list.




I understand your tired of the same questions however remember you put it out there to the public and people want to judge you.

You do you case more harm than good by not answering in a polite manner.

As was suggested if you have enough evidence the media love nothing more than a beef up on the Government especially now as they are bored to death

Thats another option which has suggested before( anyway its your choice)
However if media wont run it then thats another matter.

That means its propably in the grey area and of course they cant risk a law suite. If that is the case and I am not saying it is - then your not going to get up on the in court IMOP


Now if the DEP sue you for defamation you will loose your house and there is no two ways about it .


I was originally intrested in your matter because the DEP had let this go unchallanged and because I felt sorry for your position.

No I dont think this is the most important case I have been involved in by a long shot. What drew my attention was your willingness to fight and stand up to the DEP.

However you must have a strong case. please do not post back with abuse Jolanda. I have given a honest run down of my thoughts and nothing more
I would like to to read this link very carefully and then decide if you think you should risk loosing your home because I cant see how that will help anybody. oh and by the way you dont have to be guilty to go down in court - just our briefed and I can see the dep having more money for silks than you.

Thank you for answering my question.
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/defamation.html
This one should be read by all posters
http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html

Have a nice day

PALE. Maybe you could direct me to where I have abused you.

I don't demand people do anything. I am actually much nicer to people than what they are to me. Juts because they don't like what I say doesn't make it abuse. This thread was about accountability in Government not about me, yet people insist on wanting to make it about me.

The media know that I am telling the truth. They have told this to me but they say that they don’t want to go there. It seems that there is something stopping them. Maybe its politics who knows.

I am not worried about losing my house because they can never take away my home. If the DET wants to sue me for defamation then that is their choice. I don’t like their chances given that twice I have given the DET through the Crown Solicitor the opportunity to advise me what it is that is defamatory and twice I have said that I will review the material once I have been advised and if it is defamatory remove the material and make a retraction. If the material is still there it is because it isn’t defamatory otherwise I would have been notified. I have no intention of using a solicitor if I get taken to Court. I will represent my family and I have the evidence to support everything that I say. If the system is so corrupt that they can still manage to turn it on me then I will do time if that is what it takes. I will fight for our right to be treated fairly. There are people who gamble their homes away, there are people who drink their homes away and who shoot their homes up their arms if I loose our house fighting for our right to be treated fairly then so be it. We will still provide our family with a loving and caring home. You can’t take your home with you when you die so really it is worth nothing.

Hi Jolanda

Again you say " I will represent my family and I have the evidence to support everything that I say"

I would like to see something/anything that proves one of the below acusations from yourself.

few weeks later their response was to target my son. They do this so as to create another situation and move the attention away from the situation at hand and confuse things. This wasn't the first time they targeted my son, my children have been targeted relentlessly."

and evidence about

Teachers humiliating my children and making sarcastic comments about my children’s intellect in front of the whole class and continuously criticizing them.

and evidence about

Teachers regularly totally ignoring my children when they are the only kid with their hand up wanting to answer a question and instead making a point to ask them to answer questions when they didn't have their hand up so as to put them on the spot and embarass them.

You children telling the stories is not evidence, nor is a doctor etc recounting a story. show me evidence.

What I am also interested in evidence of something/anything that happened last year, 2007. have you got any evidence.

Jolanda



Well there you have it folks!

The question still remains - Where is the Accountabilty in Government

Where is the concern for the children the teachers or the Mother.

Not good Enough

Here is another article that deals with the complaint handling procedures set up by our Government.

It is a completely different situation. What happened to these women is just unforgivable but the problems are the same. The complaint handling process has failed to protect the people and instead has protected the one who failed in his duty of care and permitted him to continue to mutilate and ruin womens lives for years. This is despite 'evidence' and loads of it that showed that he was not a fit Doctor and was destroying the lives of women.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23325546-5001021,00.html

Don't people realise the implications of this?

Hi Jolanda,

The case you link to is appalling - and a tragedy for the people who lost their lives, the people who lost their baby. You're absolutely right that the medical board was worse than useless.

I have just looked through your new entry. Again, I really don't think you are doing your own case any favours. You produce an enormous amount of papers and appear to find small discrepancies in each. It is obvious there was a problem calculating your daughters score, although this seems to be a genuine problem. I could not really see the lies and manipulation, though you've tried to point some out. I could not see any evidence of bullying. I felt the letters from the department were more credible than your own.

It seems that you interpret any criticism as evidence that the critic thinks your children are liars and/or wants to "discredit me to turn the attention from the truth". In this scenario, you believe yourself to be the lone voice of truth and accountability and the only defender of your children.

The people on this board aren't unsympathetic. When one of our members wanted us to lobby the government to apologise to children who grew up in state care for abuse they'd suffered, many of us enthusiastically complied. In fact, our very presence on this board demonstrates an active engagement in our civic duties and responsibilities.

The problem is not we know what's going on but prefer to bury our heads in the sand, the problem is that most of us here don't find your allegations credible.

Basically, I'm just rephrasing the advice I posted earlier, to which you responded aggressively. But, whatever you think, I am sorry for your obvious distress and hope you can resolve this. Along with others here, I think you need to speak to a psychologist.

Of course, you're free to believe that only you care about justice and children. But if I were you, I'd ask yourself if people might have reasons for doubting you other than their own moral bankruptcy.

Good luck Jolanda.

Jolanda

See what I mean. It probably took Vanilla ten minutes to write that or more. Same with Annoyed parent.

This is my point. You always do this then cry oh I was busy so busy and throw in a few other dramatics and insults.
This is your pattern.

Regardless or not if you agree with any of these people they took to time to respond to your requests for comments.

They are entiled to be answered nicely and with respect but you just dont understand that,.

+

Pale your concern for other people's time is truly bizzare.

I have answered Annoyed Parent before, she as repeating herself, copying and pasting the same thing.

You seem to forget that I have a full time job, do the bookwork for our small business afterhours, look after and care for 4 children who as well as my husband and I all train and play competition sport and I don't always get on the internet to respond immediately depending on what is happening that particular week.

It just seems to me that people seem to justify everything that the Department has done. Imagine calling the errors on the documents small discrepancies. They presented the wrong score and incorrect information to the Selection Committees. They changed the score and then they presented an incorrectly calculated lower score so as to ensure that my children were unsuccessful. How can that be called a small discrepancy.

Vanilla. If you applied for a job or a promotion and somebody went in after hours and changed your application and presented misrepresentations so that you would be unsucccessful would you call that a small discrepancy.

Vanilla what letters from the Department did you find more credible than my own?