Migrants in Australia as well as the Indigenous People have no direct voice in Australian politics.

As a poster pointed out in another thread on this Forum: -

Is it time with a large migrant population (passed and present) to take definite action to ensure their basic rights, (for themselves, and future generations) by joining forces and creating a political party to represent them?

As the poster in the previous thread pointed out:

"Our future, Our Country, Our Responsibility!"

Any thoughts?

foxy id liked to say to you that i have included all diffrent nationalities in my writtings on this site i just don't stand up for the whites i stand up for all of us forgotten australians of whom were in these state run institutions as it was not only the aboriginies who were raped abused it was all cultures ,also how come your post got on line today when i posted my disscussion and had to wait 24 hours , anyway i am here to help the forgotten australians to be regonized and to be given a apology to just not the aborinal stolen generation ,as we are all one country nad mr rudd should remember this , as for the lberals i asked john howard to do some for the forgotten australians ,he wiped his hands of it i only hope for australias sake mr rudd does not do the same as we are equal as to what happend to the stolen generation , regards micheal a real victims of the forgotten australians ,

Any migrant who has got citizenship has every right to take part in politics, should they so want and can even be Prime Minister if they try hard enough. So can any aboriginal, and they do take part in politics, quite powerfully. Their voices certainly get heard more then any migrant, citizen or not.

So what is the problem?

There are many differences in attitudes among migrants, and some like the Serbs and the Croats seem to want to have a good fight now and again. How could they operate in a single migrant political party?

However, as a migrant and whose wife is a migrant from a country other than my own, I will say one thing. I am fed up with the Australian attitude that Australians are too clever to learn from migrants, and with Australian professionals' arrogance in refusing to accept that migrants may have skills and training, in the medical field among others, that are a damn sight better than theirs.

Foxy

If you had any idea how much tribal strife their is among authentic indigenous people you would realize how unrealistic your suggestion is. Also could you honestly see the Jews and Arabs being represented by one party. This is not to mention the feeling between black and white Africans and Croats and Serbs and .......

Dear huffnpuff (Michael),

Thanks for your input.

I don't know why I got online today and you had to wait 24 hours.
I normally have to wait as well.

Perhaps it's because of the week-end and they don't have as many new threads over this period as they do during the week. Therefore they are able to process things quicker.

Anyway, I am glad that you were able to get your thread admitted.
I wish you every success with it. Your case and those of the Forgotten Australians deserves to be heard - and acknoweldged in
Parliament. I don't know if you've approached your Member of
Parliament about your case. It might be worth doing.

Dear Henry VIII,

You asked - "So what's the problem?"

I don't know if you're aware how many political parties and organisations there are in Australia - but the list is quite long.
Not all of them are registered. I looked them up on the web and was surprised to see one called "Crikey.com"

I got the idea for this thread from another poster who wanted to form
a political party for migrants to fight for their basic rights. And I
thought "That's interesting." Let's see what other people think
about such a suggestion.

Because I do feel that the political system itself is the best protection of rights in Australia.

Dear runner,

Those that don't want to unite and form one political party - will as you point out - never do it. Or they will support the current choices available to them.

But you may be surprised to see how many of the various groups might actually unite - in their own interest. There's enough of them now to no longer be small fish in the large political ocean. United - they've got the numbers - and a louder voice.
And as you know - in politics that counts.

I have tried to start a new political party but hey have a go.

Mine was the australian peoples party, www.tapp.org.au

dont worry about the heading i just used that for myself when i ran as an independent .

The biggest problem is that political parties do not represent the people of their electorates and that they are only there to represent their parties.

I will not go away, the other parties and unions have forgotton what government is about, us the people.

That is why i created tapp so it is about choice not dictatorship.

Stuart
swulrich@bigpond.net.au

Foxy

I suppose if you look at it that way we should have one party representing all men and one party representing all women and one party representing the in between.

Foxy, I have to agree with HenryVIII that migrants have as much right, and ability, to partake in politics as the rest of us.

I find the notion of a separate political party for migrants quite off-putting. It would no doubt have one very significant negative effect; exacerbating a divide between migrants and non-migrants.

We certainly don’t want that to happen. In fact we very strongly want the opposite to happen, so that we can all feel like full citizens of this country.

Those in favour of sectarian strife say aye. Naive.

AYE,

A political party run to the tune of immigrants and Aboriginals would serve as a great vehicle for political unrest.

Every time Keysar Trad or his idiotic boss graces the TV most people feel the need to throw up. And as the biggest migrant group in this country these are the people that this topic will attract.

So go on Sheik Hilali for PM baby.

Runner,
Sorry to disappoint you but not all Jews and Arabs consider themselves enemies - nor all Protestants and Catholics, blacks and whites, blue-eyes and brown-eyes or any other group that some like to believe are obliged to be automatic enemies.

Not all Labour voters are opposed to businesses and not all business owners are anti-Union.

Unfortunately the idea of this sort of party only provides yet another forum for those keen on dividing us into even more groups to fuel their prejudices.

It would be a nightmare Foxy, yet in a way it is what we have, sounds silly?
Well a man of Italian roots runs NSW some from parts of Europe well away from England control inner Sydney Branch's of the Liberals.
A party to try to govern for Aboriginals and migrants?
It is trouble beyond belief divisive and we would soon see white Anglo Saxons isolated and would they then be the victims?
We in both sides of politics are already inclusive room exists for all people all thoughts.
I am happy it is so, but just maybe , please let it be so, we one day can be one people not divide ourselves.
Now some, like it or not, from minority's divide them selves from us, with intent!
We can say we would do the same in other country's if we are blind but some do not want to be like us, why then come?
Remember just what the term migrants means, it means people from every nation in the world who have come to Australia, few in reality have been of much trouble.
We must never forget some of our greatest people are of migrant stock, we tend to claim some who achieve but not those who have not done so yet.

OOOOOO-K.....I'm going to say it A-GAIN....

ONE NATION, ONE RACE, ONE CULTURE full stop!

Now.. in case anyone hasn't noticed, since 9/11 a lot of Americans have embraced Islam. Why? because they took the trouble to look into it after the events of 9/11 actually got their attention enough for them to ask 'hmmm what are these Muslims on about'? UN...fortunately, they appear to have been exposed to the very sugary warm fuzzy 'packaged' Islam promoted by various outlets.

PALESTINIANS got attention by blowing up airliners.. by massacering Israeli Athletes.. hijacking aircraft... and now, we even have people on this forum like Lowenstein... even brother Kieth .. speaking warmly about their 'plight'....

FOXY has underlined the incredible danger of even THINKING about such an idea.. "All migrants form a political party"... shudder....cringe...

FOXYness.. ru speaking about 'recent' migrants or.. 'British' migrants which formed the backbone of the country? .. please clarify this as it is key to the whole discussion.

No matter what the answer.. my 'headline' still stands. How stuuuupid it would be, to have any other view of this countries national destiny, than one of INCLUSIVE blending of all ethnicities including Aboriginal.

We do NOT need any program or political movement which is based on 'us/them' aside from... the "us" who want a blended, homogenous,unified Australia and the 'them' who would seek to impose a particular religion on us. For that mob.. no mercy.. 'go and never come back' and if you were born here.. go anyway.

The whole system is not very helpful for the creation of new political parties. The electoral system (My English is not very good)is not enough democratic. It was very good when it created but we stuck in the 19th century. The Australian electoral system violates the basic democratic principles, If all votes are equal then the Green party had to have more than 10 MPs in the federal parliament (with 7.8% of total votes) but it has not any MP. Compare the democracy in Europe and Australia and you will find that Australia lack of democracy and block the voices for changes. For Example:
In Italy Autonomy Liberty Democracy, regionalism (french minority) with 0,1% of the total votes won 1 seat in the parliament.
In Italy South Tyrolean People's Party, christian-dem. (german/ladin minority) with 0,5% of the total votes won 4 seats in the parliament.
In Germany Alliance 90 / The Greens, green with 8,1% of the total votes won 51 seats in the federal parliament
In Greece La.O.S with 3.80 % of the total votes won 10 seats
In Netherlands Livable Netherlands with 1.61% of the total votes won 2 seats
In France The Greens with 0.4% of the total votes won 4 seats.
In Australia the Greens has no MP!!
It is not only the electoral system unfair the mass media have controlled from few corporations and they have ignored totally migrants rights. Although according to studies a very big part of migrants are victims of race discrimination the mass media avoid to write anything about this bad side of Australian reality.
While at this moment we (migrants) are not ready to form our own political party, for various reasons we do not abandon our rights to form our political organizations to protect our basic rights.
We know that the time works for us (migrants) and we hope Australian Government, political parties etc, will not continue to ignore our basic rights.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

foxy, political parties only ensure the rights of their leaders. they're nothing but bandit gangs, intent on getting control of the wealth of the nation to reward their supporters and ensure their continuing power.

the only group that works for all is the group of all: the electorate. giving them control is rule by the majority. the special interests say: "shock, horror!" but rule by a small minority is much worse, if you're not part of the elite.

party rule is divisive by it's nature, the natural inheritor of the norman warlords that created parliament in the first place. it's time to move on to democracy.

Yes DEMOS, let’s empower the electorate.

Yet you seem very cold on my suggestion for one way of significantly improving empowerment of the community and the average person http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1449#26939

Would you care to respond to this, on the appropriate thread?

Good Morning,

I didn't mean to suggest "division" by starting this thread. As Ludwig points out - that would indeed be a nightmare. My aim was to have an interesting discussion - as to the possibilities of the topic.
Reading your posts however - I'm beginning to realize that I was being a bit naive.

It's not an easy task to get a single community to agree within its own ranks - let alone to get different factions to unite. You'd need
very strong leadership within each community - leadership that would be able to unite people towards a common goal... But again, as Belly
confirmed - that's what we already have.

Thanks for all your inputs.

It will be intersting to read further - what other posters have to say.

DEfine migrant. Within 10 years?, 20, 50?...

ASymeonakis
Perhaps it might help the readers of this thread to be told what these basic rights are that you are not getting right now.
For eg Are they to not work on a friday or be given a few hours off with or without pay.
Is it to be able to mary and have more than one wife.
Or is it to be able to obtain a driving licence by having a translater to attend the test to answer the questions in English for you like you have now.( BTW I do not approve of that one)
Is it perhaps being able to carry out Halal Slaughter in your back yards and business as is done overseas.?

Is it basic rights to follow the Koran as law disegarding our
Australian Laws?

Is it the right to change our culture making it as Islamic country.

I am not trying to be rude but as far as I can see the Australia Government have bent over backwards to make migrants feel at home but hey if you have a concern thathasnt been addressed this is a good place to raise it and I encourage you to do so.
So please tell us what you are being denied - right now

BTW I have many Muslim and other friends so speak your mind freely please.
Peace be your

I am still pondering foxys original question

“Migrants in Australia as well as the Indigenous People have no direct voice in Australian politics.”

When describing “migrants” does Foxy mean migrants who arrived with and since the first fleet or those of a non-English background ?

As far as I understand, if someone had citizenship and is over the age of 18, they have the same right as everyone else, “migrant” or “indigene” to participate in the elective process.

If a migrant has not accepted allegiance to Australia, through applying and qualifying for citizenship, then they do not deserve to participate in the electoral process.

If the electorate do not have a voice in Australian politics, who does?

Foxy,

Intentions are honourable but from experience this system of liberal democracy does not look kindly on the entities. It was born from a formula of adversarial (two major party) politics.

Get rid of compulsory voting and perhaps direct democracy will have a chance.

Until then all our votes mean nothing beyond the ballot and the campaign issues.

Remember the Democrats?

Foxy do not worry your thread has bought instant interest and debate, just what the forum exists for.
Antonio's Symeonakis , mate may I say your words offend me? or can I ask you a a few questions?
You quote the Italian system, is it not true it is a bit of a shambles? more governments post ww2 than any one?
How would an Aussie migrant be treated in those country's you quote if he wanted Australian representation in Parliament?
Why do you feel unhappy with the way my country picks who is to run it?
Is it not true you could join a party and one day lead this country?
Like me or not Boaz David has a point, not in thinking the only migrants we have are Muslim, or that all of them are a threat.
But surely he is right in saying we do not need to divide ourselves.
Have two cultures three if you must but one for every ethnic group?
Is that not the end result of your post?
One vote one value holds no fear for me but in truth our country is not doing too bad as it is.
Strangest fact of all we have people from all over the world in local state and federal government already!
I rather think my friend you need to ask why you are unhappy just maybe you ask too much.

Dear Stg,

You asked me to define migrant - 10years, 20 or 50 back?

Well that's a fair question and one I hadn't really given much thought to. And Col Rouge asked me also - who I meant by migrant?
Again - a fair question.

I suppose I was thinking in terms of people who still regarded themselves as "migrants." They could be of any background and I hadn't really placed a time frame on them.

Now this raises another question in my mind - if they think of themselves as - Italian, Greek, Polish, British, Scottish, Irish -
where does Australian come into the picture?

What is the difference between citizenship and nationality?

Any thoughts?

PART ONE
There are many questions and my English is not very good and the space very small but I will try to give some basic answers.
When I speak for migrants basic rights I mean very simple things. For example, Equal opportunities, respect to personality and integrity of migrants, equal pay for equal work, no humiliation, no bulling.
1. When I went for first time the person who had to train me moved against me and said me angrily <<shut up your mouth >> This was the welcome from my trainer.Do you know that even single instances of discrimination at a key decision point can have long-term cumulative effects? When later I went to see a new employee from Italian background I found his place in big mess, I asked him why did do not use a funnel and he said me he did not know about it. His trainer was there, he saw the mess but did not tell anything to Italian man. Extremely bad behavior to migrants, no training or bad training. For example Renato a German background woman left her job crying, Paul a Jews man I found him crying in his job, Ann a woman from Finland left her job with problems, An other Italian man left his job without to accept a present and without to say good buy. For me the humiliation was endless, for example one liked to see me cleaning the floor, every time he came there every time he said me the same thing. <<clean the floor!>>. I do not know what you think about me but I am not idiot, about 130 IQ, I read thousand of books my reference from my last job writes <<leader of the Union Movement>>, few years before I wrote an article for the File systems of OS of computers. I found it in American Universities for student exercises. They did not permit me to use the Guillotine for more than 12 years when every new Anglo Saxon employee use it from the next week.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

PART TWO
To renew my my children' passport, I went or phoned 70 times in the Office in Adelaide and a fax from Adelaide to Australia's High Commission in Nicosia took about 100 days. I have avoided the public services of cause bad experiences for many times. The available public services to migrants is not enough good. When my son return from a school camping he was crying because they was laughing with his poor English and put him to clean the toilets every day. One day a teacher phoned and said me that my son does not know enough good English and may be fail to finish the school, but my son was excellent in English before him and now studying English language at Flinders University. Migrants have huge problems in their work place, with the public services and they do not know or can not find their rights.The existing low is extremely weak. Personally for long time I cleaned the floor, now I am cleaning the machines and my top position could be when they put me to clean the ceiling. That is the equal opportunities in Australia.
About the democracy in Australia. The leader of the new center left Italian party elected from 3.000.000 (millions)members and friends from the party, the President from the Greek Socialist party elected from 700.000. Can you tell me how ALP leader elected? I know a Greek <<leader>> in Adelaide who deleted the members from the committee when the 7 members from the 9 decided to replace him, When I was counselor (about for one year) in the Trade Union, Printing Division of South Australia, after 8 years we decided for elections, we gave the candidates' forms and Union bureaucracy forgot to sent them to Australia Electoral Commission.
About the political organization, I do not mean only from migrants or only for migrants, I mean an organization who has a sensitive for migrants rights.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

I understand where you're coming from Foxy. I'd hate though, to see a standard of migrants be low due to political pressure from (potentially) a strong influence. I'm a migrant, my first language is english (I'm a kiwi), but I really think there should be a high standard of literacy and english comprehension before being accepted here. I've worked with other migrants (from many nations) and the hardest thing challenging them (IMO) is communication. Refugees are a different issue, but intensive schooling is important to them.

Deficiencies is these areas create issues...just like the previous poster commented on. I wonder how much of those issues were because of communication issues.

I like the idea, but an advocacy, more so than a political party would be more beneficial. Migrant parties kinda smell like segregation to me.

Foxy

An interesting question. I am not sure how a minority party might give voice to migrants and Indigenous people's needs and rights. For one, the rights of all Australians should be the same ie. equal access to services without discrimination but with recognition that various groups may need assistance and policies that aid in respecting the various cultures and religions, and an understanding of the issues peculiar to all groups.

While the Greens is a minority Party which started with a small voice that grew with the advent of global warming, it represents ALL people in an effort to preserve the environment in which we live.

Would such a Party as you suggest be more divisive? I am not sure and are there already enough mechanisms and platforms in place to provide a voice if utilised?

Also can there be one voice for migrants and Indigenous peoples? They are two quite separate groups with different cultural needs. Indeed migrant groups consist of many different cultures and there is disagreement even within cultures and religions.

But in a democracy anyone can establish a Party with enough numbers and this is a given right.

A Symeonakis,

From the tone of your posts you seem like you would annoy me if i were your supervisor and would probably give you a wide berth.

Go with the flow mate if you dont like your job get another one. Im sure Adelaide has got to be full of roosters like you.

You complain about government departments and the crap you have to go through to get anything achieved. Well mate, join the bloody cue, thats what beauracrats do, they stuff us all around so your not Robinson Crusoe there old son.

Mate I reckon your full of it and if not then you should think back to how great your country of birth was and the reasons you left it were. If you still think were a pack of assholes then I strongly encourage you to pack up you missus and kids and head back off to Greece or where ever and live among that great thriving country where there is no social security or safety net as we provide to cretins like you.

In final, dont let the door hit you in the back on the way out.

Foxy “where does Australian come into the picture?

What is the difference between citizenship and nationality?”

As a “Migrant” I can maybe answer these questions as I see them

Being “Australian” is to be prepared to relinquish the citizenship and all allegiances to the land of my birth. However, without forgetting the affection I hold for the “Old Dart”.

“Citizenship” tends to be a matter of law, “nationality” is more a matter of the heart.

Talking from the heart:

I am English by Birth, Australian by Choice.

So I remain unsure of exactly who Foxy means by “Migrant” however, I would observe, the labor party, the liberal party, the national, the democrats, greens, family first and every other party comprise members whose historic origins are either “indigenous” or “migrant” and I think the sooner we leave such classifications behind, instead of having them continually pressed into our faces, the sooner we will become a unified nation.

One thing I noticed when I lived in USA, for a couple of years, sadly more significantly than occurs in Australia, the question of ethnic origin (Caucasian, Negro, Hispanic, Oriental, Native American etc.) appears on just about every official document one sights. I think such practices help maintain and entrench the racial problems which blight the USA and they would do better if they gave up that irrelevant mythology too.

Starting to have a few doubts about A S 8 years in the one job yet the English is so bad?
Education is not that is clear so how long have you been in Australia?
And your son is made to clean the toilets at school?
Your state once had an Aboriginal Governor, it and my state have had many from your country of birth in both major party's and our federal government has too.
How much trouble would your country go to to help me if I went there?
Australia opens its doors to the world, we gain much from migration.
We however leave some effort to those migrants no hand maidens are supplied .
However your input to the thread has highlighted in my mind we do not need a separate party.
I want to know what party big or small is not recruiting all who want to join right now?

Foxy,
Belly, Boaz and others are correctin that a political party set up specifically for 'migrants' would further divide us when we need more integration and would be a nightmare to administer because of cultural differences. I think you can now see this.

To my mind, a migrant is a person of a foreign nationality that has permanent residential status here. A person who takes out citizenship ceases to be a migrant and becomes Aussie. Permanent residents have just about the same rights as citizens, with differences such as the right to be a member of Parliament or vote.

Antonios Symeonakis,
The 'basic rights' you list, seem to be all personal and work related issues, which any political party could not solve. I wonder how many employers you have worked for. Some employers are better than others. If you have had only one job, that job may not suit you or if you have had a number of jobs and still do not have good relations with your supervisors, it could be your own personality and attitude.
We have an excellant record of tolerance and understanding migrants and we can easily point to many happy and successful migrants in any community. Many of whom come from non-English speaking backgrounds and we know that it is tough for new arrivals.

No system anywhere acheives 100% happiness for immigrants, but ours is better than most.

ASymeonakis,

Thank you for your relpy.
WE are a friendly lot by nataure but many are now concered they will be taken over by other cultures. Regardless May I say your problem probably was English.
When you take on a job its important to get a work description. BTW What type of work did you do before you came to Australia?

The other thing is you mostly find new Australians employing new Australians.
For Example
I saw a boss treat his young man in a most rude manner while up in Cairns.

I actually said dont speak to him that way.

Neither were Aussies and you cant blame us if there are the conditions that is approved of in other countries.

I hope I dont offend you with my next comment because its ALL part of Aussie humour.

I also note you made no refernces to the questions I asked of you above.

What are you thoughts please? If you going to be involved in politics for migrants these you will find important ones because they are the most common to raise their heads.

Again thank for your reply and we are interested to hear you honest thoughts on our above questions.

Now excuse me because i found something here that tickles my fancy.

Hey Guys= Wheres Belly= This is funny as!

ASymeonakis, said>

When I was counselor (about for one year) in the Trade Union, Printing Division of South Australia, after 8 years we decided for elections, we gave the candidates' forms and Union bureaucracy forgot to sent them to Australia Electoral Commission.
Posted by ASymeonakis, Sunday, 3 February 2008 6:45:58 PM

pale comments
A rare insight from ALP unions= Hilarious! Or 'perhaps' they really did forget= Wouldnt surprise me
Oh boy am I going to pay for that one ASymeonakis,.

I may even have to help you guys while hiding out ah.
ASymeonakis- I forgot to ask if Aussies will be able to join this New Party?
I should think it might be seen as a bit racist by some if not. Dont you?

cheers

StG: I'm a migrant, my first language is english (I'm a kiwi), but I really think there should be a high standard of literacy and english comprehension before being accepted here. I've worked with other migrants (from many nations) and the hardest thing challenging them (IMO) is communication.

Jeez. I can't be the only one who wouldn't be here if that was the rule in years past.

For the record, my poor, immigrant Northern European grandparents spoke fluent English within two years. They're both dead, but they've left many happy, productive, professional-class descendants. A lot of immigrants aren't afraid of a challenge.

Building a nation doesn't happen in three-year terms. Sometimes you have to look generations ahead.

This is getting interesting and I'm grateful for all your inputs.
So much food for thought. I think I'm leaning towards Banjo's
last post - our current system is not perfect - but it is better than most

AS with the greatest honest respect, you must understand we Australians treat one another much as you seem to have been treated.
I read every word of every post in threads that interest me, this one is just one.
Read a few, see how some of us talk to each other, note some talk but do not listen to others opinions.
If we took offense we would be at war, human nature friend that is what it is, in truth if your complaints get written down every one of them, you will find not one is about this country's politics.
How do I say this? should I say it?probably not yet I must before anyone laughs Humor can be a shared mate ship thing , the worst among us use it as a weapon in time you will know the difference, may I ask we all read the what happened to the meat last 30 posts?
See like most I read the threads, like most would like to distance myself but for some of us it must be a two way effort I constantly make the effort but it is no longer in my hands.
AS so you will know I too am a trade unionist, my mate who sits with me on the committee of management comes from your country he is a hero, and I admire him till death.
30 years in this country if he speaks fast I can not understand a word he says but he is my mate.

Dear Antonios,

What Belly wrote just now to you - think about it.

There is a lust for life in much of this country. Parts of it is covered in red dust and hardened by drought, then made soggy again with too much rain, rendered tough once more by bad times and fluffy as a lamington by good fortune yet again restored.

It's a country of contrasts - and so are its people. It is an uncertain ambivalent land not yet entirely sure of who it is, though bloody certain it isn't returning to where it came from.

If you would only try to understand this country as Belly points out.
See its colour and feel its Australian textures, the harsh sun, wide brown land. If you understand their constraints. Know their weakness and are aware of their strengths, then you'll be more ready to become a part of it all. That would be a good thing to be.

ASymeonakis said

A NEW POLITICAL PARTY - SPONSORED BY ALL MIGRANT GROUPS...

in the Trade Union, Printing Division of South Australia, after 8 years we decided for elections, we gave the candidates' forms and Union bureaucracy forgot to sent them to Australia Electoral Commission.
" RARE INSIGHT BY UNION BUREACRACY"

Oh Come on belly and part of our Aussie culture is our wonderful sense of humour and youve got to addmitt politically thats a total crack up.
- hilarious

Hey ASymeonakis

Perhaps considering your thinking of a new political party you could use an advisor
Maybe next time you could arrange to do a deal with the unions to lodge the papers 'after' the elections ah.[ funny as]

I am not dismissing your complaints in the work place.
This is something Belly may be able to advise on and perhaps there is some real need for a big brother type programe for new workers in Australia. However i cant see any evidence here that would be cause for a whole new party.
Iknow years ago migrants had four months training 8 hour days to learn English- Maybe you could spear head that again.

Well I looking forward to your answering the questions we asked and BTW Welcome to Australian brother The best Country in The World.

I have found actually the Greeks And those from Italy have become very much a part of Aussie main stream with few problems. How is your son doing now? Does he like it here?

Perhaps this was more of a work place issue combined with a laungage skill problem do you think.?

Well look forward to your answers cheers for now
Foxy lovely.
Banjo Yes thats my understanding also but hey who knows in this changing world.

I did not write only for my personal problems but for other persons too and I can write for more persons. There is a study from West Sydney University about the race discrimination in NSW and Victoria , 32% of Aborigines and 35% of non English speaking background think was victims of race discrimination. Also we have the 75% of Australians who recognize that we (Australian)are racists. I read in some web sites that more than 25% of migrants are victims of race discrimination. In my workplace we had big problems in the past but last few years new owners, new management, Trade Union and Human Rights Commission changed the whole environment. We do not have any more bulling and humiliation and all this ugly things we suffered for many years.
About Muslims I have Muslim friends and they are very good persons but I am openly against the sharia law, I started a debate about it in an other forum and I am against the jihad, I wrote an article about it. I signed many petitions for Muslim women rights. Last week I signed Zapatero's statement about the understanding and cooperation between people of deferent civilizations (Muslims - Christians) I am atheist.
When I said Anglo Saxon racists I do not mean, all Anglo Saxon are racists, I do not mean they are more or harder racists. I mean simple in Australia they are the dominant race and the race discrimination caused from them as in Greece from Greeks, in Germany from Germans. I am not only against the Anglo Saxon racists but generally against any racist.
I wrote if we have no other choice . I never could become member of an organization who put racial restrictions. I spoke for an organization sensitive for migrants rights but not only for them or only from migrants. Migrants need alliance and friends.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

ASymeonakis,
You ssked how come the Greens did not have at least 10 MP with 7.8% of the votes? You said Quote "If all votes are equal then the Green party had to have more than 10 MPs in the federal parliament (with 7.8% of total votes) but it has not any MP."

I'm not sure if you mean Senators or house of Representaives. In the Senate you need 16.7% of primaries or preferences to be a Senator. As an Electorate Representative you need over 50+% of primaries or preferences to be an Elected Representative.

Are you suggesting we need more than twice as many Politicians so 7.8% of votes will elect a person into Parliament?

Your suggestion that The Greens should have 10 Mp's would require more than 7.8% With six States in Australia electing 36 Senators to gain 10 Senators would mean gaining 28% of all the States votes.

We certainly do not need more Greens Senators who would halt all growth and development in Australia.

About Green Party I wrote if the electoral system was fair then the Greens had to have 7.8% of MPs. The current system violates the principles of democracy= all votes are equal.
For Example:
In Italy Autonomy Liberty Democracy, regionalism (french minority) with 0,1% of the total votes won 1 seat in the parliament.
In Italy South Tyrolean People's Party, christian-dem. (german/ladin minority) with 0,5% of the total votes won 4 seats in the parliament.
In Germany Alliance 90 / The Greens, green with 8,1% of the total votes won 51 seats in the federal parliament
In Greece La.O.S with 3.80 % of the total votes won 10 seats
In Netherlands Livable Netherlands with 1.61% of the total votes won 2 seats
In France The Greens with 0.4% of the total votes won 4 seats.
I mean it is unacceptable, non democratic. The Greens had to have about 9 to 10 MPs
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Why not?

Foxy,

On the federal election night TV coverage I saw 2 African immigrants supporting a Liberal Party candidate. This is not unremarkable. They should be / and are able to choose to support who they like. Nonetheless I still found it naïve of them to support a party so volatile to refugees etcetera.

But also, what this indicates is that while you and I may be able to see core issues that affect all, it’s much more splintered out in the real world. For example not all share the same access to quality education as others. Some “ethnic” people loathe others.

Yes, combined we can make a change. One need only examine Howard and Bennelong where it changed from 1988 from a Waspish electorate to what it is now.

Instead I think the issues you feel are common in this demographic should be made more publicly prominent. From this, an ability of all to recognise themselves as a block would exist.

This block consciousness does not exist at the moment and to create it would require some hard yakka.

But even achieving this is no gaurentee of influencing voting patterns.

ASymeonakis

Thank You for you honest reply and being so forth coming. Well its seems you have now a very good understanding of English and also our politics.

I am reading between the lines here but perhaps you have been a bit hard on yourself. You may feel Aussies are racist but you would be wrong. They stand up if they think people from other places are trying to take over - that is all.
I am sure it would be the same back home where you came from wouldnt it.
The Greens are the only party in Australia that are prepaired to stand up for a law to introduce some sort of justice that isnt motivated for money and that is always a good thing for any country.

In all I think I mis judged you on the other thread and I feel sure your sincere in your thoughts Australians are racist.

To be honest I think we all deep down prefer our own at the end of the day.

Have you many interested and can Aussies join?
What are our thoughts on exporting animals and sending them on ships alive to other countries= do you think they should be killed here and sent chilled or do you feel its ok to send them alive.

Cheers and many thanks

Philo,
Am not sure of the electoral systems in the countries mentioned by Antonios, but I think he is referring to a 'Proportional Representational' system whereby a party get a number of seats depending on the number of votes they get. e.g. in a 100 seat house, 10% of the vote would get 10 seats in Parliament.

Perhaps he could well argue that such a system is more democratic than the system we use.

Dear People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming,
I know the Australian standards, I do not think Aussies are racists, only a very small part of them but it is hard to be victim. In many other countries the problem is much bigger. We must improve our relations with Muslims, we can change them if we are friends of them, if we scare them we push them to extremists. If we make them to trust, respect, listen to us we can change them. I understand the deep gap between the two civilizations but I know where we was 100, 200 years before. I am sure the Muslims in West Countries could change very fast if we are not stupid to push them in their ghetto, if we do not push them to the hard core of the Muslims. The real problem is with Muslim countries as Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. For me the USA foreign policy is stupid, the invasion of USA joined the various parts of Muslims under the hard liners and gave to them an excuse for all their mistakes and weakness. Taliban system had no chance to stay for long time, very soon they could become one million pieces. The invasion gave to them life, goals, excuses. We can not win religious fundamentalists by guns. Europe had its religious wars sooner or later they could have the same questions and wars. We blocked them with our invasions. Also we must stop supporting Muslim dictators, people hate us when they find that we support their oppressors. Do you remember the USA assist to Indonesia of cause the tsunami? studies show that all Muslim countries was against the USA foreign policy except the Indonesian. Always the food, books, medicines, festivals are more successful from the guns.
The democracy is the best tool to promote people's rights, more democracy, better understanding, faster way to detect and solve social problems, less future problems. Australia is behind in democracy from Europe, this is not good for us, not good for the future of Australia.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

ASymeonakis,
Well you have got my vote. You can email us at www.livexports.com if you want to discuss things and your serious about your party. This may be of interest to you as its part of our work and goals.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Now I am not saying we will agree on everything because we have to retain Australia as Australia. What i mean by that is I meant what i said on the other thread after ou trip to cairns. I am still furious about not being able to find one Aussie coyboy left or hardely anybody to speak English - Its SO ANNOYING in your "own country"!

That little pet hate aside I agree with you on other matters.

ASymeonakis,

One of the things i think is a big problem is there are no parenting skills advise for Muslims arriving here with familes.

These poor kids are torn between two different worlds so how on earth do they fit in. Many Muslim people try to protect their kids especiailly young teenage boys from going out with the Ausie kids to the pubs clubs booze and girls to protect them - and who can really blame them.

The problem then is these teenage boys dont feel they fit in anywhere.

They are not Ausies like the Aussiekids but they are not living in their own culture either.

Then they get ent to all Islamic Schools so then again they are not learning to mix and they stillo feel they dont fit in.
Thedy grow up thinking they dont fit in and everyone is against them

This makes them torn and angry young men. When they do break out often they get themselves into trouble which is normal for any kid being too restricted.
I am just wondering what parent education classes the Government could put together and if they would listen.

I am against seperate schools because we need everybody to mix and grow together but if we suggested to stop it people would say we are racist because there are many other private schools.

What do you think may assist?

Con grates AS your English has improved out of sight just from the birth of this thread.
However what has the greens got to do with this new party?
It may be the fact they have people from every country in the world as members.
Just like the other party's,you say your country of birth has racist and then that every country is a bit?
True sad but true, why then single out Australia?
Our system is the one picked by those who gave us federation it is based on the idea a member represents those who elect him.
Use your system if you must but why change?
I think you need to ask why you came here? truly why mate if you are so unhappy?
I would be the first to sit with you at work take you for a beer learn from listening to you, but in truth you too must try to understand us.
Have you heard what we call Englishmen who complain too much?
I one day would like to bring you together with my mate your country man.
30 years ago he jumped ship to stay in Australia,12 years after that he gave himself up and fought to stay.
He worked hard and sent for his wife to be, his grand kids speak two languages and fill the house with noise and joy.
He sells book after book of raffle tickets ,you can not avoid him , he always has a trip to your home land as the prize.
He is a real hero, and a real Aussie, also he is my mate.
open your heart and your eyes bloke if its that bad my mate can run a raffle to help you leave.

Migrants in Australia as well as the Indigenous People have no direct voice in Australian politics.
Foxy, neither do integrity, common sense & working class.

Dear Individual,

Well, it's interesting what you've written. Yesterday I surfed the net looking for an overview of "Human Rights" in Australia so that I could contribute on another thread in this Forum.

I was surprised to find that - The Australian Constitution, very much a product of its time, says little about human rights and when adopted in 1901 did not explicitly address questions of discrimination relating to gender, ethnicity, disability or economic circumstances.

In contrast to many countries - for example New Zealand, with the
'Bill of Rights Act 1990' - Australia also does not have a Bill of Rights.

Recurrent proposals for such a Bill or Charter of Rights have gained little support.

The High Court, final interpreter of the Constitution, has traditionally been reluctant to concern itself with human rights issues. However, since the early 1990s it has indicated that it is prepared to develop the common law relating to human rights.

Also Federal and state legislatures have been more active, although
development of anti-discrimination legislation across the individual states has been quite uneven.

Professor George Williams has summarised the arguments for the introduction of a Bill of Rights:

* Australian law does not protect fundamental freedoms.
* A Bill of Rights would give power of action to Australians who are otherwise powerless.
* A Bill of Rights would bring Australia into line with the rest of the world.
* A Bill of Rights would enhance Australian democracy by protecting the rights of minorities.
* A Bill of Rights would put rights above politics and arbitrary government action.
* A Bill of Rights would improve government policy making and administrative decision making.
* A Bill of Rights would serve an important educative function.

The United States incorporated a Bill of Rights into its Constitution in 1789. Ireland in 1937, Canada in 1982, New Zealand in 1990, South Africa in 1996, and the United Kingdom in 1998. This makes Australia alone among like-minded countries not to provide for Human Rights in legislation or the national constitution.

Asymeonakis...

Mate...I looked up that Zapatero thing you mentioned. Here is a quote related to it.

<<Never in our lifetime has there been a more desperate need for constructive and committed dialogue, among individuals, among communities, among cultures, among and between nations," Ban said in Madrid at the start of a two-day meeting of the Alliance of Civilizations, a U.N.-backed initiative aimed at encouraging dialogue between the West and Muslim countries.>> (Ban Kee Moon)

To which I respond...."would you seek dialogue with a paedophile about his sexual inclinations"

Our greatest enemy is our own ignorance.

I challenge you Asym.. look at this.

Quran 65:4 'divorcing pre-pubescent children' (who have not YET had their mestrual cycle)

That such marriages CAN be 'consumated' sexually is confirmed by a highly regarded scholar HERE.
http://www.quranenglish.com/tafheem_quran/065.htm

SCROLL down to '65:4 as a main heading with some arabic writing.

Then..scroll further to paragraph *13 .. read for a bit till you find THIS:

<<Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to CONSUMMATE marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible. >>

IFFF you wish to dialogue with 'that' then be my guest. Hell will freeze over before I do. I reject 'that' with the same vehemence that I would reject a man who interfered with my 12 month old grandaughter.

So... we don't need 'that' kind of migrant..who holds that what the Quran says is 'all totally valid and true and is guidance from Allah'....

Other than that mob.. I heartily support a 'United Australia' type party which crosses racial and political boundaries.

Dear Belly few words about me,
I am hard, initiative, open mind, creative. Always I voted ALP for Parliament and Greens for Senate. I do not like the bureaucracy.
I like free thinkers, productive, open, creative minds, initiatives.
If I think something must be done I will do it.
For example in Germany I was one of the 2-3 persons who expelled from the Greek Socialist Party's Student organization the former secretary of Panhellenic Resistant Front, against the Greek junta, from this organization created the Greek Socialist Party.
In Cyprus I was one of the persons who expelled from the Cypriot Socialist Party the communist wing, about 40% of party's officers, MP, etc, their newspaper wrote that I was sent from the Greek Socialist Party to expel them.
In Cyprus I was ordered to leave the country as dangerous for the national interests and when the secretary of the Trade Union and spoke person from the Cypriot Socialist Party closed an appointment in Greek Embassy in Nicosia with the Interior minister, I rejected it without to accept any discussion on my rights, at the end I won.
One time I suggested in the General Secretariat of the Union to take in the court a state organization and it rejected it. I did it as districted secretary of the Union!
When I was studying in Greece, on holidays (about 4 months per year) I was working in Greek merchant navy. When I started this job I found that the conditions was bad and there was not any Union Of the Greek Socialist Party for laborers in the merchant navy because the party was very new. I decided to create one, to give it name and head office address without to ask any one!! I wrote in hand letters and I gave them in Greek seamen etc in various ports overseas. In a Romanian port the communist regime did not permit the ship to leave the port until to find what was my letters.
Political activists are not historian or philosophers but creators of our future.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Foxy
Our conditions are not so bad at the moment for the creation of a migrant’s political party, which could create problems and divisions in our society.
Instead of a political party we can create a Center for Migrants to promote:

1. migrant’s rights and benefits
2 the cooperation, understanding and mutual benefits between people with different colour, race, or religious.
3. offer practical assist to migrants and victims from race discrimination, in cooperation with the HREOC or other federal, state agencies and community organizations.
4. useful not only for the migrants but for all Australians.

A center open to all Australians, without racial, religious or political opinion limits,

With full respect to democratic principles and values, with elected bodies in local and national level.

We have already the president, YOU, and we can create it very soon, in few weeks.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

It wouldnt work.
White anglo-saxon has to maintain what it built.
I dont say that against other races though.
The English came here on God Appointment to claim the land and bring out the Holy Bible. The Word of God replaced the rainbow serpent who was only satan. And thats what happened. To mix buddha with mohammed with all of the other possibilities would spiritually make one huge dark soup and Christianity would suffer the consequences.

Gibo- that last post of yours is unarguable. I cannot imagine ever reading a more definitive statement of anyones opinion. Surely the last word?

Dear Antonios,

Thank you for paying me such a great compliment. It means that I have won your trust - which means a great deal. But my health is not good.
I was diagnosed with cancer - and I'm still fighting the battle.
It's one that I intend to win.

As for your suggestion of an Organisation - instead of a political party. It's an excellent idea. And one that may even get financial Government support. Especially if community groups can be persuaded to join. It would take an enormous amount of planning. And the right
contacts.
You would need to seriously think about what your aims are - and what you wanted to achieve - and how you would go about achieving it.

But with the right people - willing to work - who knows what could be done? I feel tired just thinking about it.

Did you know that Australia's migrant intake is surging towards 200,000 a year?

New Zealanders, Britons and Indians are leading the boom, according to the latest Immigration Department figures. Almost 192,000 permanent migrant visas were issued in 2006-07, up 6.7 per cent on
2005-06.

These included more than 51,000 visas given to those already living here, says the report, Immigration Update 2006-07.

The intake is the biggest since the mass migration of the late 1960s.

Australia arguably now has the world's highest per capita migrant program.

Traditional rival Canada currently has a lower anuual rate than Australia.

Victoria welcomed more than 48,000 migrants last year, most settling in Melbourne. About 55 per cent of this intake was Asian-born; fewer that 15 per cent of arrivals were from Europe.

The top source country by birthplace was India, followed by New Zealand, China and Britain, the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Malaysia, Sudan, and Iraq.

Monash University migration expert Dr Bob Birrell said the influx was staggering, especially given that the figures didn't include foreigners living here on temporary visas.

Dear Foxy
I am sorry for your health problems, Do not say me for cancer!! my mother, father, three brothers died from cancer, my sister has cancer, many relatives died from cancer.
Foxy you know many things about migrants, you know very well the Australian reality, I am sure your help for the creation of a center for migrants(with branches in all states) will be very important. You know my weakness, my problems. I am ready to fight, I will fight but this is not enough, we need persons like you. We can start as a national committee for the creation of this center, 4-5 persons are enough for the begin. We can use this forum and any other available forum to promote our activities. I am sure very soon we will find enough persons in all states. It is better to start with what we can do now, to start with the easy one and build up. I do not think it is right to ask the ethnic community organizations to support us,
a) we must keep them far of possible problems, as last resort for migrants.
2) We want individual activists who stand on their own feet and do not depend from any one else.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

A practicality. From what I have seen of migrants to Australia from Asia and Africa, and particularly refugee migrants, they are sometimes too frightened to make waves or complain lest they be treated as badly as they would have been in their own country had they tried to do something. There are migrant resource centres in the capital cities, but I don't think they do enough.

I think an important issue is that migrants, or perhaps some migrant groups, get out more into the community rather than living in enclaves, which are certainly bad PR for them. Migrants also have a lot of experience that is very worthwhile and may be very well qualified professionally but can't work here in their profession because of vested Australian professional interests. Certainly, something needs doing about this, and such migrants need to be encouraged to form their own pressure groups.To give credit to the Australian government, there is a fair bit of support around, but there are also some serious problems in parochial Australian attitudes that need overcoming.

Good thread Foxy and good luck.

ASymeonakis

Do you not feel contact with AFIC would be helpful Asymeoakis they have several programes that might interest you to work with both migrants an us Aussies
Er, If you going to be the leader of kindness please respect Foxy said she isnt a well person.
Just an observation. Perhaps you ask too much of a sick lady - no?

In the mean time I have requested a new thread and I was wondering if you might like to assist a couple of muslim ladies to be free to leave Australia.
There seems to ne a problem with them getting their pass port to go/.

I would like to see the ladies be able to leave asap.
After all it would be a shame to stop people from living where they prefer do you agree?

Dear Antonios,

There are people within your own community who have specific knowledge and skills - who may be willing to contribute some of their time with advise based on their experience in this country - dealing with various institutions and government agencies. They are the people who can advise you what to do.

Similarly, once you have started - approaching other communities will become easier - as you will be able to share your expertise. And draw
upon knowledge and experience of members belonging to these communities.

This way it will not involve a small group of people engaged in full time commitment - but draw upon a large network - able to contribute as available and needed.

People are not willing to make a full time commitment - but with a larger network of expertise - people may be more willing to contribute
some of their time.

I wish you successs in a pursuit of a worthy task.

Dont cut God out of the equation FOXY. Healings still happen today. Ive seen a number recently at the small pentecostal christian church I go to in Sydney where hands-are-laid-on with prayer. Its wonderful. Every Friday night Im flat out on my back on the floor under the power of The Holy Spirit getting one thing or other healed. I cant recommend it enough. Assembly of God does it. Christian Outreach Centres, Reachout for Christ churches, any of the independent charismatic churches will lay -on- hands.

Dear Gibo,

I couldn't possibly cut God out of the equation. Thank you so much for thinking of me. Whenever I feel really low and things are getting to me I remember a story my brother told me:

"One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with God. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene, he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand; one
belonging to him, and the other to God. When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times of his life.

This bothered him and he questioned God. "Lord, You said that once I decided to follow You, You'd walk with me all the way. But I've noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed You most, You would leave me."

God replied, "My precious child, I love you and would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

Dear Foxy,
Thank you for everything and I wish you the best with your health. About the ethnic community network I do not thing they are enough strong, mature for this kind of activities. Even, I am not sure if it is right their involvement in this kind of activities, at least in the first stage. I prefer individuals, many of them Anglo Saxon, even on the top level. My goal is the minimum possible cost and conflict to the maximum possible benefits for the migrants and all Australians too.
Only strong, mature, responsible individuals from any part of our society, can create something important and useful.

Dear People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming,
You have right about Foxy, I asked to much, I feel sorry about it BUT SHE IS VERY GOOD!!
About the muslim ladies to be free to leave Australia.
1. Are they adult? 2. Are they Australia citizens? 3. Have they got Australian passport or they want to leave Australia with an other passport. 4. Where do the want to travel? 5. Have they got visa, can the take visa for the Country they want to visit? 6. who block them to travel overseas? 7. Did the AFIC try to support them? how, etc give me the maximum possible information. 8. What about the Human Rights Commission, did they ask for support? 9. did they ask for support of political parties, especial from the Greens? I will try to assist but I am only an individual person. Only if we create an organization only then we could have enough power to support migrants. If necessary I will try to get support from International Organizations. Why did not you put this problem on the forum?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

ASymeonakis

I know its easy to get carried away but I thought I should say something- Yes the IS good- One of our best.
Now if you dont mind I need to ask you some questions.
Didnt you know there are migrant assistance offices all over Australia.
There has been several hereon the Gold Coast for many years.

As long as you are not born in Australia you can just walk in and get help for everything you could poosible need astance with
They supply lawyers housing accontants etc.

Once about ten years ago I 'purposely' went in and asked for help legal help and advise just to see what the would say.

You guessed it- because I was Aussie it was a no.

Terry Ogorman was at their beck and call when too busy to help others most times.
So you see we need to have a fair system for all otherwise people resent the fact that the assistance is only for migrants.

Re the ladies they were on ABC and all i heard was they prepared to live in a Islamic country but could not obtain their pass ports because I think the Government withheld them suspecting they know unsavoury people.
Look under the other thread and click onto story. Its under Jihad Shela ABC.

If you wanted help from AFIC to assist to set up sensible programe
you would have to present your venue.

As I said you hsve a email address if your really fair dinkim

What did you think about my idea of family education to speak to parents of young Muslim boys and girls before they enter Australia etc

Cheers for now.

Halelujah ! ...Foxy has finally founnnnnd the TRUTTH...

"and a louder voice.
And as you know - in politics that counts."

Welcome to my world dear Foxyone.. *bingo*

and it will become louder too....

ONE major theme will be:

LAW REFORM.. "No person shall hold up a sign or a symbol in a public place calling for death, harm or destruction of other people"

Signs allowed.. will be calls for JUSTICE or FAIRNESS.. etc.. positive things.. but noooooWAY will I accept that people can yell, scream, rant, hold up signs.. bellow slogans wave flags/symbols around which are linked to the destruction of people.

No person shall call for the victory of our enemies OR the enemies of those officially allied with us. To do so is 'treachery'.

"religiously motivated" will NOT be a defense. So, pastor fred phelps will be in trouble with my new law :)

Would you support such a law ?

Dear Boazy,

So in other words you do believe in the curtailment of "Free Speech"
if it does harm to people?

And, you do agree that there are some things that do inpinge on decency and a "Fair go' for all?

So you are against "Hate speech" after all?

Well, well, Boazy - you'd better take back some of the threads
that you've posted on this Forum then - hadn't you?

Then I'll think about supporting any law that you propose.

Antonios,

It is deplorable what you and others have suffered at the hands of different employers.
Whilst not diminishing your experience in any way, unfortunately, in some areas, barstardisation occurs to employees whether they are migrants or aussies. Some people are just plain nasty individuals.

Perhaps someone online can direct to the organisation which could assist and advise people such as yourself. I thought there was a Migrant Centre in Adelaide set up specially for this purpose. I knew a person in Adelaide who was an officer at the centre; their purpose was to help migrants, in all the ways you mention, to settle into this country. Every migrant should be informed of all rights and benefits, assistance with housing and all other issues. Certainly, migrants should be afforded protection from any exploitation and victimization from possible employers.

I am not sure that an organisation you propose, run by migrants (and aussies): “open to all Australians, without racial, religious or political opinion” would be entirely successful.

Some years ago, one of my students (Australian born of immigrant parents) would spit on the floor whenever Turkey was mentioned; another student, a Scot, was trying to raise support for a nationalist breakway from England; another student, a Swiss, stated Hitler’s aim of arayanisation of Europe was sound. These were university students. It would be hard for many people to completely free themselves of old prejudices. These prejudices raise up every now and again, as we have seen in sport.

My extended family include, among others, Croats and Serbs. The Serbian family entered Australia post-WWII, the Croation woman and her children escaped from the last Balkan conflict where she had witnessed attrocities - she and her daughter, of nine years, had been threatened with rape. There is no human possibility that she can just forgive and forget in the near future. We have to respect her feelings. She is a contributing member to Australian society and wants her children to be in every way aussies.

Dear Danielle
I do not speak for an entirely successful organization, I speak for an organization which could save the dreams, hopes, smiles for many migrants.. We know that about 25% of migrants are victims of race discrimination, or they think it. We know that 75% of Australians recognize that we are racists, Studies show that 35% of non English background employees think they are victims of race discrimination. Studies show that the consequences from the race victimization are very negative not only for the victims but for their children too. Although Australia comparing with other countries is not so much racist, because the country have a big number of migrants and every year come many thousands more new migrants, the number of victims from race discrimination is very high.
We have the Human Rights Commission but only an extremely small number of the victims go to them and only when it is very late. Migrants avoid the public services, they do not trust them, they have very bad experiences from the public services in their countries.
An organization for migrants can attract the victims of race discrimination, can detect early the migrants basic, essential problems and in cooperation with Human Rights Commission and other federal or state agencies promote the best solutions for them.
Ethnic community organizations care for the ethic cultures but not for people's rights because they have no idea for these rights not in Australia or in their countries. I come from the Union movement, I have experiences from it from 4 countries, I was working professionally in the Union movement, I know and I am sure I could help the migrants mainly with problems in their workplace. There is no need for human suffering when we can stop or eliminate it.
Every migrant we can help is a gain for our society, for our country.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

You state: "We have the Human Rights Commission but only an extremely small number of the victims go to them and only when it is very late. Migrants avoid the public services, they do not trust them, they have very bad experiences from the public services in their countries."

I completely understand this, and sympathise with migrants' feelings. It is often difficult for aussies to submit complaints, so I can well understand what it would be like for migrants.

Perhaps a member from the Unions, or someone actually on the shop floor, be appointed as a Human Rights representative. This way they could ensure that there was no "back-lash" from the employer to whomever submitted a complaint; or, if the complaint was based on "over-sensitivity" there could be some form of intermediary action. Also, employers should be made aware of employee sensitivities. Some employers are as insensitive as planks.

Dear Danielle
When I was counselor in the Union I tried to find if we could find or create a way to protect migrants basic rights, but I was not sure if the Union Movement was interested enough for migrants rights and I stopped from counselor.
In workplaces the situation for migrants is bad. When I asked for first time a Union organizer about our training, (no training for fifteen years.) He was laughing, he could not understand that we wanted some opportunities, better future. When I asked later an other organizer he said me that we should be happy because in other workplaces the conditions for migrants was worst. I am sure the second organizer said me the truth. My question was for our opportunities not how was the conditions for migrants in other places. NO TRAINING, NO OPPORTUNITIES AT ALL FOR MIGRANTS, THAT IS THE TRUTH.
Let's see the conditions in the floor, most migrants are victims from Union members, most union member migrants are victims from union members. I saw migrants crying (including me),most of them member of the Union. I saw Union representatives or active union members to close their mouth on very basic rights because they have children, families, mortgages etc and afraid to claim labors rights. If the Union Representatives who have the support of all members and afraid to speak do you expect a human rights representative, without support and many persons against him, even unionists, do you expect from him to promote successfully migrants basic rights?
For me only two ways there are to protect the very basic rights of migrants
1. The Union to create a committee and inform employees about the activities and how, when, etc to meet this committee. I am ready to work FOR FREE if Union agree to create it.
2. I will try alone to find other persons sensitive for migrants rights and slowly slowly the migrants will learn about our activities. We could ask for support, advices from the AHREOC, political parties, Human Rights Groups, ethnic community organizations etc.
Antonios Symeovnakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios,

You have courage and the right spirit ... As a country, we need more like you. I hope, and am sure, that others will join you in this fight. I wish you well.

ASymeonakis, “Migrants avoid the public services, they do not trust them, they have very bad experiences from the public services in their countries”

I guess avoiding the Australian public service because of negative experiences in the “homeland” is more than a little unfair.

I am a migrant, I have always found most Australian civil servants very obliging, even when I was (briefly) one of them.

I recall a Philippino couple (daughter went to school with one of my daughters) who I met telling me they were having difficulties finding work (he was a refrigeration engineer) and they thought the difficulty it might be racially based.

At the time (1990) I was finding it hard too. Everyone in Victoria was finding it hard. It was not racial at all, it was a recession.

As for training, if you want training look at the Council for Adult Education, they have been running courses for years and as for migrant needs, LOTE (Language Other Than English) programs, for people for whom English will be a second language, abound.

Part one
Dear Col Rouge,
I did not write only that “Migrants avoid the public services, they do not trust them, they have very bad experiences from the public services in their countries”. The truth is that migrants have big problems with public services not only because they have bad experiences in their countries but also because they have bad experiences from the public services in Australia.
When to sent a fax from Adelaide Passport Office to Nicosia took about 100 days and I had to visit or phone them more than 70 times then you understand what kind of services offer to migrants. It is not that they made a mistake and sent the form to an other country, it is that I went so many times and they ignored me. Only when I found their mistake only then they corrected it.
I have many cases like that, for example,one time, I received from Social Security a notice which wrote that if I did not give them my Tax Assessment until the end of October may be they will stop the youth allowance, In the middle of October they informed me that the youth allowance was stopped three months before. When I asked them what can I do they said me that it was very late.
I wrote to the Ombudsman, and I said that the Social Security misinformed and misled me I had three letters from Social Security to prove what I said. Few days later the Ombudsman advised me to go to Social Security with my Tax Assessment and everything will be OK. I did but only one from my two sons took allowance, they said me they lost the copy of my TAX Assessment from my son's file. I gave up
Sir if you want to be credible you must be fair, you must recognize that we have problems, because we really have race discrimination problems and all together try to solve them. HONEST, FAIR, CLEAR.
I can write books from the race discrimination in Australia,
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

part two,
Dear Col Rouge,
I write bellow some of the Concerns and recommendations of Human Rights Commission, UN, about Australia.
COMMITTEE ON THE ELIMINATION
OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION
Sixty-sixth session
21 February-11 March 2005
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS SUBMITTED BY STATES
PARTIES UNDER ARTICLE 9 OF THE CONVENTION
AUSTRALIA

9. The Committee, while noting the explanations provided by the delegation, reiterates its concern about the absence of any entrenched guarantee against racial discrimination that would override the law of the Commonwealth (Convention, art. 2).
The Committee recommends to the State party that it work towards the inclusion of an entrenched guarantee against racial discrimination in its domestic law.
15. The Committee notes with concern that it has proved difficult for complainants, under the Racial Discrimination Act, to establish racial discrimination in the absence of direct evidence and that no cases of racial discrimination, as distinct from racial hatred, have been successfully litigated in the Federal courts since 2001 (arts. 4 and 6).
The Committee, having taken note of the explanations provided by the delegation,invites the State party to envisage regulating the burden of proof in civil proceedings involving racial discrimination so that once an alleged victim has established a prima facie case that he or she has been a victim of such discrimination, it shall be for the respondent to provide evidence of an objective and reasonable justification for differential treatment.
22. The Committee notes with concern reports of alleged discrimination in the grant of visas against persons from Asian countries and Muslims, and further notes the assurances given by the delegation that no such discrimination occurs (art. 5).
The Committee would like to receive more information on this issue, including statistical data. The Committee reiterates that States parties should ensure that immigration policies do not have the effect of discriminating against persons on the basis of race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.
not enough space to write all of them.

Antonios Symeonakis]
Adelaide

ANTONIOS QUOTED:

"it shall be for the respondent to provide evidence of an objective and reasonable justification for differential treatment."

andd....there you have it.. UN CULTURAL IMPERIALISM and NEO COLONIALISM!

They might as well say "And we want all dogs to be wagged by their tails"

Placing the burden of proof on the ACCUSED to defend his actions.. is in my view SEDITION trying to undermine our whole legal system.

It means that any Tom Dick or Mohammad can 'claim' racial discimination, and the HASSLE of the whole thing then falls on the accused, and we know full well that said Tom Dick etc, might have construed the complaint in order to BENEFIT in various ways.

NO! I say ..let the burden of proof be on the ACCUSER.. let THEM have the problems and cost and burden of proving it.

Now we know and can all see how pernicious 'human rights' and UN conventions can be.. and we also see how suttle but effective are there malicious and ideologically colonialist methods.

I hope ALL of us see this fine print for what it really is. and reject it totally.

Devid,
you are against the victims, you are against the migrants, you are against me. How can you be so hard against innocent people, against me? What is your problem with me? Did I do against you something bad? I do not remember, I do not know you. David, woke up, do not be so hard against migrants. Soften your hurt and try to understand that we are many times more victims than you are. The hate does not solve problems but creates problems.
David now we are many and we have enough power to press for our basic rights. What do you think is better to fight each other or to cooperate for mutual benefits? Give your hand and forget the wounds from the past. I started a new thread for Iran, go to sign the petition.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Dear Antonios, mate, I am not 'against_you'.. I am FOR Australian_Law.

I am FOR fair treatment of all people.

What I am AGAINST is... a re-structuring of our law which victimizes Australians for the sake of a minority who 'see themselves' as 'victims'.

If you look very closely at major conflicts in the world, specially those involving Muslims, you will find a common theme.

ie. "If they are a minority, they will complain of being treated as 2nd class citizens, of discrimination and disrespect"

This is as true as night following day. Kenya.. look it up.. South Thailand.. see it.. 'Australia'.. read the news.

They will whine and moan 'Whyyyyy does the media have to mention the ethnicity "middle eastern appearance" when reporting crime? they yell..

Well just yesterday I read a crime report from sydney where the WHITE ness of the perpetrators was specifically mentioned as it usually is.. to narrow the focus of the public who are assisting in searching for the offenders.

If you think that Australian law should be changed so that any Tom Dick or Antonios can simply 'claim' discrimination and then WE have to fight it at our cost and prove we did NOT do it.. sorrrry mate.. you can bet your LIFE that I'm against you on that score. 100000%

No one..but NO ONE.. has the right to change OUR laws to make us have to defend ourselves at OUR cost over slanderous charges of discrimination.

A genuine case, will stand on the FACTS and it should be the burden of the COURT to prove one way or the other.. there should NOT be any pre-bias in the structure of the legal framework which suggests 'guilty b4 evidence'.

If I complain against you.. then "I" have to prove it.
If you complain against me.."YOU" have to prove it..based on facts.
If a law is broken.. the public prosecutor tries to prove it.

If you REALLLLY want to get me going.. just follow this line u are currently on :) You see.. the true situation is..'you' are against Australia as you currently present yourself.

David
I press you because I expect from you more, I do not think you hate me you are not bad man, simple I try to soften you. I am not against Australia generally, only against the bad Australia and I try to make it better with the minimum possible cost.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

If you REALLLLY want to get me going.. just follow this line u are currently on :) You see.. the true situation is..'you' are against Australia as you currently present yourself.
David,
Have you ever considered that a lot of what you appear to prefer to perceive as criticism is actually drawing attention to facts. If I could get a dollar for every time I've been accused of whingeing I could retire right now. Immigrants, give or take a few of the silly ones, in general are very patriotic to Australia the country. Just because someone's born here does not justify ruining a perfectly good land & reject criticism from those who can see what's being done to this great land. Please consider that by having or choosing to leave a country people don't just "go somewhere else" to get away from whatever they want to get away from. They're hoping to either improve or enrich their lives. I am a migrant who is saddened by the realisation of the direction Australia is heading. It's heading towards the same situation which caused many of us to leave our countries to come here. I have heard a few Australians say (and that is the absolute truth) "it really makes you want to leave".

Individual,
You are good!! Thanks, I try to tell some simple truths but some people do not like to listen, few advised me to take my children and leave Australia. If you have time visit http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/898586b1dc7b4043c1256a450044f331/fff3368f665eaf93c125701400444342/$FILE/G0541073.pdf , UN, Human Rights,
Concluding observations of the Committee on the
Elimination of Racial Discrimination
AUSTRALIA
and read the Concerns and recommendations about migrants.
visit my thread Migrants and local authorities on this forum, thank you.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

ASymeonakis
Let us ask you this question please? Are you familiar with the person who complained about the lady who ost control of her bladder suffering from a past injury?
Ae you not familiar with that site and complaints lodged to AntiDis against this poor lady?
Did you not post the papers or links from UN complain that the Government stopped him funding to ASTIC claiming concerns for aboriginal people?
Since when does Australia have on average unhappy Greek people?
Are you familiar with the unpublished; other reasons' for the government stopping the funds going through ATSIC?
Are you aware of the very large number of poor aboriginal join the Muslim Faith?
Are you aware that some aboriginal people simply refuse to work with white people regardless of the project or funding offered?

Why were you so outraged at he government stopping the payments to ASTIC given that its clear they squandered their own peoples lives future and betrayed them?
Just curious. You should talk to belly about complaints regarding unions.
BTW I can assure you if you care about migrants and Muslims AFIC and other leaders wont thank you complaining about what streets are named.

Tell you what why don’t you write the council and ask if you can name the next sub streets or some of them. I work with Migrant leaders all day and You are not representing their feelings or anywhere close to what they are trying to acheive.
Harmoney -
Problem solved-

Few years before I awarded from the union with the certificate of appreciation for my work to the union, and the Union was my job as profession for many years and.. and... Do you know many who deported of cause their Union activities? do not speak to me about the Union and Union Movement when you do not know anything about me or the Union Movement. I wrote some simple things and you can not understand what I say or I mean. You do not know and you can not understand very basics about the Union Movement, Migrants , Muslims or Aborigines. Open your mind and try to understand the very basic.
And learn that every one has the right for expression of speech and we do not say him get out of the city or country because we disagree with him.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

ASymeonakis

To whom is your above post adressed please?Would you mind posting the persons name you are replying to. Its only good manners surley.
Also and this is the third time for some reason you have ignored our very reasonable questions could you please do that= answer our questions?= Ah, we may have found something in common we ae not fans of too many unions either.
However that was not the question I asked you about. Here they are again-

ASymeonakis
Let us ask you this question please? Are you familiar with the person who complained about the lady who ost control of her bladder suffering from a past injury?
Ae you not familiar with that site and complaints lodged to AntiDis against this poor lady?
Did you not post the papers or links from UN complain that the Government stopped him funding to ASTIC claiming concerns for aboriginal people?
Since when does Australia have on average unhappy Greek people?
Are you familiar with the unpublished; other reasons' for the government stopping the funds going through ATSIC?
Are you aware of the very large number of poor aboriginal join the Muslim Faith?
Are you aware that some aboriginal people simply refuse to work with white people regardless of the project or funding offered?

Why were you so outraged at he government stopping the payments to ASTIC given that its clear they squandered their own peoples lives future and betrayed them?