I urge everyone to read "The challenge of protecting boys from sexual abuse" from the Australian Institute of Criminology:
http://www.aic.gov.au/conferences/2007-RegionalComSafety/briggs.pdf

Australian boys are sexually abused far more frequently than the reportage would indicate. This paper beautifully explains the reasons for this, but answers are thin on the ground. How can we make it easier for boys to report sexual abuse?

The paper's conclusion:
"Boys are at greater risk of sexual abuse than reports indicate. They do not report sexual crimes because they do not recognise them as reportable offences or they are afraid to do so. When male offenders are involved, they are afraid of violence, being disbelieved, getting into trouble and, worse, being taunted as gay and effeminate. They worry about their sexuality and imagine that they were abused because they were identified as gay, not because they were young, uninformed and vulnerable. In addition, boys may find genital fondling and the receipt of oral sex pleasurable and that, in turn, increases both
the difficulty of rejecting more obnoxious and painful abuse and the offenders; opportunity to blame the victim for his abuse. Guilt and embarrassment prevent reporting and can lead to long term psychological harm resulting in physical and/or mental illness,
low self-esteem, suicidal ideation and suicide attempts, poor concentration, relationship problems, drug and alcohol abuse, angry anti-social behaviour and crime, including repeating the abuse with children.

Bentovim (2006) and Abel et al (1987) found that one in 4-5 male victims re-enacts the abuse and becomes an offender while Abel and Harlow (2001) found that one in twentt male adolescents is already a paedophile. Abel et al (2001) suggest that if young offenders are identified and receive treatment, they have a high chance of leading normal lives.

Quite clearly the protection of boys has been neglected compared with the abuse of girls. Given the cost of child sexual abuse to society, the taxpayer and the individual, this has to be rectified.

Boys need school-based child protection programs that involve parents and address issues relevant to them. Some of those issues are clearly different from issues for girls."

Make child abuse a hanging offence.

Child abuse is an offence of the worst kind, as bad if not worse than murder (noting murderers do not infect their victims with a propensity or ability to commit the same crime on others)

If you want to prevent an offence make the deterent the maximum and ultimate deterent.

No point in pretending paedophiles will ever "reform" or in any way curtail their predatory behaviour.

Through their action, they have proven their unworthiness to breath.

Don't ponder it, just do it, top the bastards and sleep in peace, knowing that at least some innocent child somewhere will be safe in the future

Putting aside the fact that I don't believe in the death penalty, and the fact that I have no idea why I'm taking this seriously, I don't your solution is a good one Col. As the report shows, disclosure is a major problem, because my boys are related to or loyal to their abusers. If a child believes his abuser will die for his actions, he's even less likely to disclose the abuse.

Do you really want to give the abuser the ultimate blackmail fodder: "If you ever tell, they'll kill me, and it'll be your fault."?

And you should not consider it death is too harsh, we are however bound by political correct laws.
Nothing wrong with mandatory prison terms for offenders, make it law no way out law 5 to 10 years first offense.
Not to send them away says the victims do not matter let us worry more about the victims less about the offenders.

Punishment, of course, is important. But you need to find the perpetrators before you can punish them. One researcher found that male offenders commits an average of 522 child sex crimes before
being apprehended.

The point of this paper is that boys are reluctant to come forward and say they've been abused. They've sometimes enjoyed the abuse, in the initial stages. They're worried the abuse has made them gay. They're ashamed. They want to protect the abuser. They didn't know it was wrong - one study this research quotes found "78.5% of male victims believed that what was happening constituted 'normal' behaviour".

Note the research that indicate one in four or five boys who have been abused reenact the abuse.

I just wondered if anyone had any views on how we can help boys who have been or are getting abused.

These are staggering statistics.

>>male offenders commits an average of 522 child sex crimes before being apprehended<<

522 sex crimes before being apprehended? On average? That must mean that there are those who get away with it over a thousand times. Surely there aren't enough hours in the day? And what about those who get away with it completely? Isn't there a danger they will run out of boys?

Vanilla, perhaps it would be useful at this point to be absolutely specific about what you term "abuse". Particularly because:

>>"78.5% of male victims believed that what was happening constituted 'normal' behaviour".<<

and

>>They've sometimes enjoyed the abuse<<

It would appear that there is a major element of retroactive abuse, in that when the act (whatever it was) was committed, the statistical likelihood was that both participants believed it to be normal behaviour, and to have enjoyed it.

I don't mean to be obtuse, but as it stands this is looking like pure sensationalism.

Pericles,

"522 sex crimes before being apprehended? On average? That must mean that there are those who get away with it over a thousand times. Surely there aren't enough hours in the day? And what about those who get away with it completely? Isn't there a danger they will run out of boys?"

I can't vouch for the research, but I buy it. These are the references:
"British (Bentovim 1991), American (Abel, Becker, Mittelman, Cunningham-Rathner,Rouleau & Murphy 1989) and Australian researchers (Briggs et al 1994) showed that the average male child sex offender begins offending in adolescence... Abel et al (1987) researching with 561 offenders found that they had committed an average of 520 crimes against children at an average age of 31.5 years."

So they're looking at offenders who have been offending for, on average, over fifteen years.

"I don't mean to be obtuse, but as it stands this is looking like pure sensationalism."

Why do you think so? I am interested in the topic because I knew someone who was sexually abused by a trusted male (I think we're defining abuse as forced anal or oral sex) and his experience tallies with those in the report. I found it quite credible - I've certainly read before that some children fail to report abuse because, in the beginning, they enjoy it.

In what other ways did you find the report sensational?

It also helps if we finally do something about pornography.
Its a huge problem but not so big that we cant dominate it. A major criminologist (just arived from a far away world) said some years ago that there was no evidence that pornography was connected to sex crime.
If cops were to do their crime reports and were to fill in a section that showed that the sex offender had pornography in his house when it was searched, we might get a clearer picture of what the poison is doing to the minds of people. Cops know... so do governments. They dont say hardly anything because money is being made from the foul material.

Dear Vanilla,

The enormity of the problem indicates the need for wide public education and a change in attitudes.

I can't begin to imagine the impact on a child who is repeatedly assaulted by the same person they know and trust. Yet because they are so confused, scared and ashamed by this person they don't tell anyone. Sometimes the abuse continues over years and the child carries their shame alone in silence.

The silence of victims and the ignorance of adults whose role should be to protect children are the allies of sexual abusers.

Child sexual abuse should be:

1) A public health issue with a focus on education to change attitudes.

2) We should have "packaged prevention programs" such as the excellent
programs currently available in the U.S.

3) Adults should be given the knowledge about child behaviour which helps them recognise and react responsibly to possible child sexual abuse.

4) Government agencies should fully accept the fact that this abuse can be prevented by more active action. There should be further education and a mandated reporter in schools who is legally responsible to report abuse.

Thanks for your response Foxy.

What US education packages have you heard about? I thought that was one of the most interesting insights in that report. The education package that tried to talk about abuse without talking about sex appeared to have zero value. Kids need to know *specifically* what's is unacceptable, otherwise "it's normal to suck me off" (sorry to be so graphic, but thems the facts) becomes, well, normal.

The problem for the kid I knew (he's since died) is that he didn't go to school - he'd dropped out by thirteen years old. The cleverest school-based program won't protect the bottom rung. Plus, as the report points out, girls seem to respond better to education programs.

Very difficult.

Unfortunately it is to late to halt the epidemic. Even in the the Briggs report it speaks of paedophiles who 'routinely offer cigarettes, cannabis, alcohol and pornography to lower resistance,'. You have the pervert industry denying any link to child abuse and those who support the industry also in denial. The links between child abuse and priests is fair game while the link between homosexuality and child abuse is a no go zone for pc reasons. The infiltration of the porn industry into many if not most homes and our acceptance of it has opened a door that can't be shut. Without a great outcry by many people nothing has and will be done.

Dear Vanilla,

What educational US programs have I heard about?

Just to name a few:

1) Marianne James, Senior Research Officer, Australian Institute of Criminology wrote a paper entitled, "Child Abuse Prevention: a perspective on parent enhancement programs from the United States."
It appeared in "Issues in Child Abuse Prevention," No. 3, Dec. 1994.
And this should be available from the Australian Institute of Family Studies/National Child Protection Clearinghouse.

2) I believe that there's to be a Conference in San Diego, California.
The 22nd Annual San Diego International Conference on Child and Family Maltreatment - 28th January - 1st Feb. 2008. Which will include
programs from the University of Colorado, the Family Support Center in Yeadon, Pennsylvania, The Webster Avenue Family Resource Center (New York)and many others.

I hope this helps.

Vanilla, thanks for starting this thread and the link to the article. I'm still making my way through it.

The theme that sticks out most so far is the differing perspective on abuse. Plenty of food for thought in there so far. I've just reached the part where they talk about the higher rates of mental health issues in males who do identy as survivers of abuse. How do we deal with something where trying to deal with it may add to the harm?

Thanks also for your comment on the other thread, I hope I didn't sound like I was having a whine about being ignored. What I was trying to do was remind posters that HRS is not the only one who ignores what does not suit (and maybe prompt some to have another look at spome of the material).

I don't expect to be online much over the weekend so please excuse my tardiness in responding to posts.

R0bert

Just too expand this topic, then I'm out of here.

Sexual abuse by women of children and teens is a subject most parents and caregivers are not familiar with. Female sexual predators go unreported because of a lack of awareness by the public.
Female Sex Offenders

--

75% of sexual predators are male and 25% are female.

86% of the victims of female sexual predators aren't believed, so the crimes go unreported and don't get prosecuted.

Considering these facts, arrest statistics for child sexual offenders by gender are meaningless.

From "The Sexual Abuse by Women of Children and Teenagers"

UK TV programme - Panorama - BBC1 - 10 pm Monday, October 6th, 1997
http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/BBC_Child_sexual_abuse_by_women_06OCT97.aspx

What I found interesting is that the transcript of this story last time I looked was not available at the BBC, however transcripts of stories on either side of this one were available.

http://www.canadiancrc.com/female_sexual_predators_awareness.aspx

Vancouver filmmaker Glynis Whiting produced, a hard-hitting investigation of one of the most under-reported crimes in North America. When Girls Do It: The Story of Female Sexual Predators is a provocative and passionate look at the motivations of women who abuse and the devastating effects of their crime on their victims.

I had contacted SBS to see if they would run this video doco, but so far no reply, so I guess even SBS doesn't want to touch it.

Vanilla “Putting aside the fact that I don't believe in the death penalty, and the fact that I have no idea why I'm taking this seriously, I don't your solution is a good one Col.”

Please consider the matter “objectivity” or set just aside your stance on the death penalty.
Then question why you are taking the matter “seriously”.
You might find my “solution” is a reasonable and realistic one based on

1 The recidivism rates of convicted pedophiles
2 the low interception rates in prosecuting pedophiles.
3 the devastation which they inflict on their victims
4 the “infection” rate in the transmission of pedophilia practices.

If the statistics are to be believed as true, then in perpetrating hundreds of criminal acts against children, anything short of a life of confinement and all the hassles (or my preferred option a death sentence) is not going to work.

Gibo “It also helps if we finally do something about pornography.”

Well Gibo your thinking is way out on that one. Millions of people, myself included, enjoy differing degrees of “pornography”.

I would note the book “Fanny Hill” was considered “Pornographic”, likewise the work of Aubrey Beardsley and I think some of Oscar Wilde writings were banned too.

I do recall the magazine “Oz” was at the centre of a high court trial in the UK and the Australian Richard Neville ended up in gaol under the “obscene publications” laws.

Your confusion between pedophilia and pornography merely muddies what should be a clear and present understanding to
Something which involves mutually consenting adults and
something which involves unconsenting or manipulated children and predatory adults.

As for “we might get a clearer picture of what the poison is doing to the minds of people.”

Old saying, “one mans meat is another poison” and I do not want or need you to be my official “taster”.

The only thing which will help route out pedophiles is to support the authority of parents in a childs life and a home where children are secure in knowing they can always go to a loving parent.

Col: "The only thing which will help route out pedophiles is to support the authority of parents in a childs life and a home where children are secure in knowing they can always go to a loving parent."

What if, as often happens, the parent is the abuser? Read the final story in the BBC piece James linked to.

Gibo. I cannot agree with you. It's true that sexual offenders often use pornography to lure boys in, and familiarise them with sexual acts, but they also use alcohol and cigarettes. Should we ban them too? Banning anything seldom works. Drugs are illegal, but sexual offenders use drugs to lure kids too.

James. Thanks for those links. The BBC one does include the transcript, by the way - and it's devastating stuff.

Robert. Didn't think you sounded whiny in the least. You make an excellent point. We will never solve anything if we refuse to listen to facts that don't fit our political passions, even if those passions are held fervently and for the right reasons.

Foxy. Thank you. What excellent material. I'm reading the Marianne James article now.

For those who are interested, here's a link to the Marianne James article: http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/issues/issues3/issues3.html

I do not think we can debate the issue without debating punishment.
So very many story's turn up of slack sentencing, even bonds for such crimes.
Most of us have at least once expressed the view such sentences are a betrayal of the victim.
I have zero confidence in the courts.
We should have a law saying 5 to 10 years first offense, tell me of a time the offender should have walked free?
Parenting, I understand some will think I am acting like a red neck , but some parents are the offenders.
Some parents are not fit to have children in their care.
Bit harsh? I have seen the results of lives destroyed too often.
I have begged DOC,s to take action and after 5 begging letters seen the fears I held take place, look such a child in the face and tell me 5 to 10 is too much.

Got to disagree with your pro-porners.
I remember the 50's as a kid before Hugh Hefners magazine legacy etc began to warp the minds of youth en masse. It was quiet. Sex crime was there but so little of it. Leap forward to 2008 and not a woman is safe in an isolated spot. Not anywhere. Not ever. Not ever! So what was the difference between the two ages? We openned the door and we allow the porn to flood the world with few stops. The rotten spirit from the pits is out of the bottle... and we've got to get the demon thing back in.

*dummy spit approaching*

Bah! Debate punishment all you like. People prefer to talk punishment because it's the easier question - look 'em up and chuck away the key! Unfortunately, punishment takes place *after* abuse. The thrust of this report is about trying to give boys the opportunity to decry abuse taking place. What would you prefer, a boy who is abused once and a perp who is caught and gets twenty years, or a boy who is abused for five years, who says nothing for a further ten years, and then, possibly, the perpetrator - who has had a full fifteen years available to him/her to mete out further abuse - is caught and gets twenty years?

But blame inadequate punishment, if that's what you'd prefer.

Blame pornography. Blame women. Blame fags. Gun for the death penalty. Pooh pooh the research without due consideration.

Apart from Foxy, no on appears to be interested in the issues raised by this report. The fact that boys are, for very particular reasons, reluctant to report abuse, and that in-school programs designed primarily for girls don't appear to work that well for boys.

That's a pity. But at least you've all had the opportunity to draw attention to your own particular bete noir.

*dummy spit ends*

Vanilla, I've seen far worse dummy spits so don't fret to much.

The report takes quite a bit of pondering, a process which I'm still doing.
The issues seem to be
- boys are different to girls and may not initially be as uncomfortable with sexual contact as girls. Things can go a lot further before the alarm bells are ringing and by then a boy can be in a position where to report the abuse he risks exposing himself to blame. May not want to be accussed of being a "fag" etc.
- boys are not often believed.
- boys are much less likely than girls to report abuse (I've seen similar for adults in the DV area).
- sexual abuse causes harm, the act of facing up to abuse may also cause harm but if I've understood the report correctly it's less harm than remaining silent.
- most of the prevention strategies are based around work done with girls and may be particularly ineffective for boys.

To add my own ponderings to this
- Seeing how public cases are treated when the perpetrator is female the boy's involved seem to gain some "cred" and the public/media is more willing to treat the childs keenness to participate as a mitigating factor.
- Generally people are more concerned about the possibility of abuse to girls than boys, despite the stats we still don't really think it will happen.
- Some are down on porn regardless of of evidence or lack thereof. I posted links some time ago to findings from the USA which indicate that the states with the highest takeup of internet usage (and therefore easier access to porn for teenage boys) are showing a significant drop in sexual assault committed by teenage boys compared to states with lower internet takeup's. Other crime figures are not shifting corespondingly. It's early days for that research and nothing has been proven yet but it appears to be a clearer link between porn and sex crimes than can be shown by the "anti-porn" lobby.

R0bert

I am making time to try to read some of the other threads today.

Most people are aware that abuse has a direct link to abuse to of Animals.

That was originally what drew my attention to this thread.

Vanilla you should be congradulated for bringing this to peoples attention.

I am not sure that there are any different symptoms between boys than girls reading your comments.

However you would be correct in saying most of the attention seems to be directed at girls and this does need to be changed.

I have spent the last three years trying to get some action from about a offender of a person I met through my work.

I cant say its acheived much as the offender he walks free to continue offending with claims (it is a old matter) from Police.

You requested ideas on how we could make changes for the better.

One thing you could request is that upon a statement from a boy charges could be made.

This seems to be the problem because in the end they let the kids down by first taking reports only to tell them = Sorry no proof.

This is the worste possible outcome.

Perhaps if we can find a foot baller or person with a public face who would be prepaired to `come out` and publicly talk about his experience as a it may be seen as more `cool` to ask for help.

RSPCA QLD run programes against domestic volience and animal abuse.
I will enquire if something may be done as a start if you wish.

However it would have to be on the that yourself were interested to be the base etc I am sure.

Others than that may I respectfully suggest perhaps yourself and Foxy could throw your hats in the next Federal Elections.

Although I think we already have Foxy ear marked for the next `Gov General.`

So we thank yourself and Foxy especially and will watch your thread with great interest.

I've been thinking about Gibo's idilyic 1950's vision (pre mainstream porn) and pondering how many of the institutional abusers had access to porn in those years and the ones which follow. My guess is that most did not have viable access.

Started doing a little browsing on the web regarding child abuse in the 1950's - I've found a site with submissions to the Senate Community Affairs References Committee - http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/clac_ctte/inst_care/

I came to the site from a link to one of the submissions which is hard reading
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/clac_ctte/inst_care/submissions/sub262.doc .

The victim is female but hopefully that off topic aspect can be excused.

"In 1950 I was six years old when I went to live with the foster family, they changed my name to Lorraine Baker but not legally .The mother was very strict and Godly. The father and both their teenage sons sexually abused me. It started when he would tell the mother that he would bath me for her. He would rub me very hard in my private parts and when I pulled away because it hurt. He asked me what have you been doing, he was talking right into my ear, saying to me that I had been letting the boys at school play with me down there, and that’s why your sore isn’t it, the whole time he was touching me there. He said that it would be our secret, that he wouldn’t tell the mother because she would give me the belt and take me back to the orphanage for telling lies because the nuns and my mother had told them that I told lies. I learned not to tell well. I had the bath scene played out many times...."

I've not yet worked through much of the material on the site this was found on. An account by a male victim from the very early 60's is another one which I've read http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/clac_ctte/inst_care/submissions/sub312.pdf

R0bert

Hi RObert,

Yar, I've read the Forgotten Australians report, although I've never got through all those submissions. Harrowing reading. It reminded me that I'd written down an extract from one of the submissions down though...

"I (aged 71) decided to write about my past in the hope that it will help me to understand myself and to help take away the guilt which has spoilt not only my own life but that of just about everyone else I was close to." (Sub 320)

As for porn, I have no doubt it is used in sexual abuse, and a lot of perps use it. But so does 95% of the rest of the population. And it's wrong to suggest that there is a direct correlation. As I said before, the same can be said for alcohol and drugs. Measuring sexual abuse before the onslaught of internet porn is impossible anyway, because we also know there's been an increase in reportage and awareness in the same period.

It seems boys need to understand that if certain things happen to them their bodies react in certain ways - even if they don't like those happenings. They need to be clear about who the perve is.

PACE, I actually think that's an amazing idea - a celeb speaking out. In the same way that Ian Roberts made it easier for a generation of boys to a. come out, and b. not freak out if their mates came out.

But it's like Aesop's fable - The mice vote to put a bell on the cat so they can hear it coming. "Ah," says the wise old mouse. "But who shall bell the cat?" How would the celebrity abuse victim be found? And how persuaded to come out?

The abuser of the boy I knew abused at least one other boy. The cops knew of more, apparently. They wanted to throw the book at him, but none ocould or would testify at the time.

At least one other victim is dead. Suicide.

The guy who abused them is a social worker in a Queensland hospital.

I think there are number of preventative measures that both govt and community could and should take.

See this Myths and Facts sheet here:http://www.communities.qld.gov.au/projectaxis/myths.html

What I find interesting in this list of myths and facts is the section
that states:

Myth:

Children and young people are sexually abused because their parents/caregivers neglected to care for, or supervise them properly

Fact:
Offenders use a range of tactics to gain access to their victims. The offender alone is responsible for their actions. Many offenders are experts in manipulating both the victim and the people who care for them.

I have not read the report that inspired this discussion post but I imagine that it does recognise that abuse takes place across classes.

The access to help services is therefore a socio economic variable.

It may be best if I cringe away into a corner and stay silent.
See I am no intellectual, but I have lived a whole life among a class of people who seem to have more victims than most.
In remote country towns that exist only for one industry then die, that bring heavy drinkers and poor family's together.
Strange just how much faith a first level boss, just a leading hand,can have placed on him by those who work with him.
And union delegate? nearly as much as I get now as a union official.
You share the pain, feel the grief, understand it will never be alright again for the victim.
And bad as it may seem you form an understanding that crime and punishment go together.
Often ,mostly the victim gets a life sentence, while a reference was made to 20 years? wonder how that came about?, most offenders serve no time?
Red neck? maybe I am but if we can not stop it we must punish those we catch.
I will leave you to debate but remember those victims they will never be released from memory's they do not want.

Belly,

-- Yes, it is harder in country, rural, towns or closed communities (like mining communities) where everyone knows everyone else’s business and this often results in a culture of compliance and secrecy.

-- It’s interesting to note that there is a higher level of suicide (proportionally) for young boys in rural areas and I wonder if there is a connection with abuse.

-- I'll have a look around and see if there are demographic studies of abuse to boys and location.

-- Given our appalling public health system in the bush the counselling and education programs would simply not exist.

-- As you say, conviction (or no conviction) the need for greater support, awareness raising and counselling for family and communities is required urgently.

-- The level of trust is important in any service and from my experience people often feel safer speaking to others where they work or trust.

Belly, I apologise for my dummy spit. I guess I just thought the report itself asked difficult questions and I thought they were getting sidelined by other discussions.

But I was out of line and I apologise. I hope you will continue to post.

Vanilla Rainer

He’s got a point really shouldn’t everybody be pushing for big sentences.
Isn’t that the best way with a lot of help available to young boys.

I saw the President of Iran speak of this and he said they didn’t have any offenders in his country at all while laughing.

He added that sort of stuff only happened in the West. I smiled. I thought to myself yeh because you shoot or hang them.

It got me thinking = Well if it works it works despite the country.

From my very limited experience the churches are a place where this thrives.
I once gave a chap accommodation along with his four horses.

When he arrived he had a fourteen year old boy in toe wit him.
He was a Church Nut.
Long story but it tuned out that homeless and their own kids just got cared for by `brother whoever.
The man himself had been abused that had the boy. I found out some time later he had also been charged earlier for offenses against his step kids.
The problem then is the the abused becomes the abuser.

I don’t know that I could shoot someone who was a victim themselves.

It’s hard to draw the line.

Still as belly said how can we discuss the treatment if not the laws and punishment?

I also hear what you are saying Vanilla that the boy protects the abuser.

That in fact turned out to be the biggest [problem] when trying to help the young boy.

This man also was very intelligent a good business man very handsome and you would never have picked him in a million years.

I think it would be fair to say Churches need special attention= after saying that I would have zero ideas on how you could put that into practice.
I think it takes Guts to speak out even on the net. Good on you Guys!

The issue of punishment may be a side issue (depends on how much you believe in the deterent value).

The things that stick out to me about calls for harsher penalties are
- The high incidence of perpetrators having themselves been victims of abuse. The abuse does not excuse their later choices but it does lead me to think of them as people needing help more than people needing punishment.
- If the penalties are too severe it increases the pressure on kids to keep quiet. Imagine the emotional pressure on a child who knew that reporting abuse could lead to the execution of the perpetrator (especially if the perp was a family member). The temptation for adults close to the perpetrator who may be the first told about the abuse to try and hide it if the consequences of exposure are extreme.
- If the penalties are too harsh the perpetrators may find that they have little to lose by killing victims rather than trying to gain their silence.

My impression is that focussing on punishment rather than other strategies is likely to further entrench a culture of silence and increase the level of harm done. We do need to find ways to protect children but also need to ensure that our outrage at the evil of the abuse does not overwhelm what we are trying to achieve.

There is no magic bullet to this.

R0bert

This is hard.

A most interesting thread, and thoughtful comments.

I am prepared to take any comment of redneck etc.,

The abuse of children is the cold blooded murder of childhood. I take no prisoners on this one. I am on the Ultra-Right of punishment and substantially find myself agreeing with ColRouge.

I take on board JamesH' reference to female abusers. How to deal with them? Because I know what should be done with males. I accept that it IS more difficult for a male to talk about such abuse, but ANY abused child suffers immensely. Male or female. We have a poster on OLO who is so clearly damaged by his? abuse.

It is CRITICAL that guilt is established. When it is, I would like to see chemical castration on a FIRST offence for a period of five years. A repeating offender should be castrated. I mean that. If it is possible to then re offend, then I have no problem AT ALL with the death penalty.

It will never happen of course, but it should. We can talk and talk and talk, and intellectualize (with respect..), all we want.
It is LONG past overdue to DO SOMETHING.

I rate this type of offence as THE worst crime of any in our society, including murder.

Myth: Acts like fondling, french kissing, or touching are not really sexually abusive, and don't really harm the young person.

Fact: Any form of direct or indirect sexual contact with a young person by an adult, an older child, or a sibling who is more mature, is abusive. Every individual has a unique reaction to sexual abuse regardless of the type, extent or duration of the abuse.

Question:

Should we castrate someone who french kissed a child?

What constitutes sexual assault?

I'm asking these questions because they go to the heart of the matter of how society and the law should understand the problem that it is and then act upon it.

Its very complex as every here appears to agree.

As the fact above states "Every individual has a unique reaction to sexual abuse regardless of the type, extent or duration of the abuse."

Is this simply a crime and punishment issue?

What about the victim? How should we care for him or her?

What is restorative for individual cases just and how is this enabled?

Rainer; I won't shy away from that one.

YES! we should. You refer to French kissing. Any adult who stick their tongue down the throat of a child is NOT innocent. It is an overt and abusive act. It is something that the adult DOES NOT DO to a CHILD!!

I feel no need to reiterate my feelings on this. They ARE strong.

You would have set me more of a dilemma if you had not referred to this type of kissing. There is no dilemma there.

"It’s interesting to note that there is a higher level of suicide (proportionally) for young boys in rural areas and I wonder if there is a connection with abuse."

Posted by Rainier

The Invisible boy;an examination of abuse of male children published by National Clearinghouse on Family Violence, Canada
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/html/nfntsxinvisible_e.html

'Giving boys a ray of hope: masculinity & education'
http://menshealth.uws.edu.au/documents/Maculinity_Education.pdf

The article below makes for some very interesting reading.

Tip of the Iceberg: Social deteminants and male suicide (.doc) Paper presented by Professor John Macdonald at the 6th National Men's Health Conference, October, 2005.
http://menshealth.uws.edu.au/documents/Tip%20of%20the%20iceberg.doc

Other articles here
http://www.menshealthaustralia.net/

If one draws a time line of the increase in male suicide which began to increase in the 1960's, which occurred in parrallel with the rise of feminism. This maybe just coincidence.

There was one author who was interviewed on ABC radio who drew the parrallel, but I cannot remember who it was, as it was over a decade ago and I never did buy or read his book.

RObert death or castration did not figure in my wishes re sentencing.
Deterrent did, I can not claim to be interested in intellectual debate on the subject, I do however see the destroyed lives.
How do we stop it? step one must be considering why we let so many get away with it.
Yes many have been victims, but why let them destroy whole lives of others?
Step parents seem to be over represented here as do the areas I spoke of earlier.
Tell me I am too focused on punishment , but I do see one broken child very often, that child cried for help long before becoming a victim.
No punishment came to the father that destroyed a life.
We can debate forever how to stop it bad parenting even porn if you wish but as a nation we must one day ask why we punish the victims even not hearing the calls for help.
I will leave the thread, not in spite or heat , thanks for having me , but my driving aim is for a fair go for the kids not remembering some who do this once had been victims yet did it to others.

Belly: "I do see one broken child very often, that child cried for help long before becoming a victim."

Perhaps the confusion here is what punishment is. The situation that you're talking about appears to be that the boy asked for help but was not believed. This is the subject of the report that sparked this debate. Why wasn't the boy in your case believed? Or was he, and was the father caught and let off?

As I understand it, the punishment issue is decided in two arenas:
1. by parliament, in the relevant Act, which specifies max and min punishment
2. by the judiciary in court, who give what they believe is an appropriate sentence.

I don't even know what the max and min is? Anybody? (Sorry, to busy to look up myself.)

Belly, Vanilla, others,

I found this article interesting in that it explains the psychological and structural processes that often exists when authorities are assessing child abuse cases.

Titled "The child abuse accommodation syndrome" it lists the following 5 components of this syndrome as:

The five categories of the syndrome are:

1.Secrecy
2.Helplessness
3.Entrapment and accommodation
4.Delayed, conflicted and unconvincing disclosure
5.Retraction

I particularly found Entrapment and accommodation interesting as it suggests children become resilient under siege.

Its states: "If the child did not seek or did not receive immediate protective intervention, there is no further option to stop the abuse. The only healthy option left for the child is to learn to accept the situation and to survive".

This makes me wonder how many government agencies are not acting on clear evidence of prolonged abuse but depending on the Childs own resolve to survive.

I can think of many cases where the abused child has been returned back into the unsafe environment from where they came because the case manager[s] thought they were safe.

But what informed this assessment of safety? Was it because the child said they felt safe (able to survive?)

Take for instance, the case in Aurukun.

See the article here: http://www.secasa.com.au/index.php/workers/25/31

R0bert, said
The things that stick out to me about calls for harsher penalties.

Pale replies
I don’t know what anybody can do about harsher penalties. Yourself, Vanilla have warned it would only go more underground and possible help promote and already booming trade in under aged kids often who are stolen.

Then when I think about those people I do get as upset as Ginx.

Now I know I am treading into deep water but does anybody think its possibly by supporting the gay community we make it easier for these offenders.
Won’t they just use that to say- oh I didn’t know he was under age and drive for a lesser charge?

I was wondering if anybody had some free advice as to how you MAKE police follow up on really serious complaints.

I am helping someone (or trying to) and I had to threaten all sorts of things to get the police to take the report.
This has gone on for three years!It took five full days and the detective said it was one of the worst he had heard. Then it went to NSW police who said it was old history.
So I sent it to Federal because this bloke was overseas when it began but it continued here and they SAY the federal police work on cases of pedophilia internationally.
That didn’t work so I contacted the Ministers office- many times.
Still nothing. So we have this man free as a bird walking around NSW and let me Tell you.
Nobody gives a dam!

Two cases real people I know but both in the past one recent.
Three boys all victims of mums newest of many boy Friends.
Mum had this person in her house only on some weekends, she complained that he did not sleep with her.
She was warned to watch him ,refused to act , on calling DOCs she defended him.
Three months after boys came to some one police acted.
Mother in self defense refused to support her sons.
Second case I wrote to DOCs but no action 5 letters no action.
After father charged with Rape family came together to defend him, he was found not guilty but family imploded no two of 9 talk to one another the victim is a girl she will never recover.
If yesterdays victim can become todays offender and that is the case why not punishment to break the chain?
What victim is worse of?
Not hanging not flogging but punishment as a deterrent surely?
I believe hetero sexual are just as likely as homosexuals to offend.
However I think the effects of being a victim are life destroying, for that alone I want deterrents to re offending

Belly, you gave one of the reasons for your question in that last post "After father charged with Rape family came together to defend him"

That is part of the problem. I'd like to see very severe penalties but not convinced that they would be counterproductive in many cases.

In many of these cases we need adults close to the perpetrator to report the crime and severe penalties will form a disincentive to this.

Families faced with the prospect of the breadwinner going to jail long term and/or massive fines and legal costs may find it easier to pretend that it's not happening particularly when the offences are at the lower end of the scale. Even just being dragged into the legal system may be a big disincentive for some to address this.

Child sexual abuse has a great shame factor to it and it's widely known that offenders risk attacks from other prisoners if jailed and yet people still do it.

Castration (chemical or otherwise) may help but I don't know enough about it to know what it achieves on the psychology of the recipient.

Is that an option for female perpetrators?

Our best hope seems to lie with appropriately educating kids and ensuring that there are people that they know they can turn to. Easier said than done.

No easy answers to this.

R0bert

Dear Vanilla,

There's another website that may be of interest to you:

http://www.csun.edu/-psy453/crimes_y.htm

I Goggled the subject - "Sex Crimes, Punishment, and Therapy."

It deals with the subject," Is Chemical castration an acceptable punishment for male sex offenders?" There is a long listing of References on the subject, including journal articles that may be useful (5 pages in all.)

Foxy, that link does not work. Is there a typo?

R0bert

Dear RObert,

Yes, I think it must have been a typo. Sorry. Try this again:

www.csun.educ/~psy453/crimes_y.htm

Or alternatively if you Goggle:

Sex Crimes - Punishment

It will come up with:

Sex Crimes, Punishment, and Therapy
Is chemical castration an acceptable punishment for male sex offenders?

I trust this will get you there.

Foxy thanks. The link still did not work but the Google search criteria did. The site seems to be an advocacy site but the material is interesting and I've not managed to find any major counter arguments.

I found a really interesting article searching for references to the drug. Well worth a read (although as usual I'm not finished yet).

http://books.google.com/books?id=uKBS8XvvJ14C&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=%22depo+provera%22+offenders&source=web&ots=BVcSi66R_3&sig=q3j0zt8H_cbAhv5aA5FWUEbH8yM#PPA10,M1

From my readings so far the use of the drug could be a significant help with sex offenders who want to change.

R0bert

Hey guys = dont go rushing to hand those 'counciling signs' on your door just yet with all that -"loving" concern -for abuse victims.

Well at least we sorted that one out = you dont give a dam about this person we asked advise for.

I think I was right in the first place with my gut intstinct as to what should be done with offenders.

Hilarious, reminds me of some animal welfare groups- all about the mouths flapping but by god dont expect and practicle assistance from them.

Sorry WE asked- Carry on 'pretending' you care about abuse victims

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, it's likely that none of us know how to make the police do what they choose to avoid doing. I've certainly got no special knowledge or contacts in that area.

I've assumed that your request for advice was for advice from those who could make a meaningful contribution. Whilst I'm not always shy about expressing uninformed opinions your situation did not seem the right place for that.

Having said that I'll toss my two cents in but I've assumed that these are things you would have already considered.

Is the situation one where media attention would help? The news and current affairs shows seem keen for stories. That can be a risky approach, you don't want kids exposed to further harm if the shows act irresponsibly but maybe worth considering. Have you talked to BraveHearts, Abused Child Trust, Child Protection authorities etc?

R0bert

"Carry on 'pretending' you care about abuse victims" (Quote: PALE&IF)

You wouldn't be leveling that little snipe at me would you??

Ginx
Good Heavens no. Why on earth would you even have thought that.
It just so happens that i agreed with your post.
No really its ok I was actually having a shot if you like at Robert and Vanilla if they are different posters.

Ginx I really was asking for any advise regarding this person. I didnt want to say it but the victim in this case is female.

I just dont see why that should make any difference because a victim is a victim and a abuser is a abuser.

I read the comment about the abuser saying and doing things to make the victim fel less of a person and destroy their self esteam.
That rang a bell to me because this abuser has always told the vitim they were the product of rape by the grandfather.

I was wondering if that type of abuse was common. I really do not know because its not my area.
I just suspect that what the abuser said is a lie but the victim is almost hysterical if i try to say- you should find out if you can.

As I said I am well out of my comfort zone here and by the police disregarding this complaint its made it worse because the victim went through five fill days of re living everything and now has another slap in the face that nobody cares.
The detective told me outside it was the worste case he had heard.

So in all honesty I thought that Robert and Vanilla might have some advise.

However as I said its clear they are not interested to help this person and I dont know what to do anymore.

Sorry that you thought I meant you Ginx but no- You were wrong
I wont bother this thread again.

Nicely handled PALE&IF.

It's a touchy subject and there ain't no one more touchy than me on this!

Ginx
I said I would not post here anymore only because I dont want to disprupt the topic and I hope some people get something out of it.
However I didnt want not to post a return to you either.

I cant make the police charge this guy and to be really honest I simply cant believe it.!
You know us huffing and puffing about cruelty but this is honestly beyond the pale.
The guy likes his neighbours= Single with twelve kids!
The victim even have a offer from an eye witness still alive but residing in another country.
Nop = Too hard . So in other words if migrants are sex offenders they are untouchable but welcome to stay and re offend.

Mean time i have paid for counciling and phys out of my own pocket but really nothing helps unless the abused is charged.
I know that and I am a nobody.

I see the victim often and I could cry because there is this hard knowing sort of a lok now after the hope of some justice has been replaced by what could only be the greatest insult ever.

Anyway it was something close to my heart and thought others might have advise.

Perhaps I ought to stick to animals at least I can understand them
Thanks Ginx for the reply ah

What the? This is the first time I've had a chance to check the thread and I find this:

"Well at least we sorted that one out = you dont give a dam about this person we asked advise for... Sorry WE asked- Carry on 'pretending' you care about abuse victims"

What a nasty, nasty accusation. Admittedly I'm the world's biggest sook, but this made me cry.

As you know from my posts, the abused boy I knew - the reason I started this thread and also another personal project IRL - is dead. Overdose. He's *dead*. His drug abuse was, indisputably, related to his abuse. As I also explained, another boy who was abused by the same person suicided. The cops know. And their abuser works as a social worker in a Queensland hospital.

Do you really think if I could MAKE the cops act I would hide this knowledge and let these people die, and thousands more get abused. You don't think I wouldn't have already acted? You're really suggesting that I started this thread simply because I'm pretending to care about child sex abuse victims for some perverted reason of my own. It's the worst anyone's ever thought of me. You're wrong, by the way. But if you want to create a competition about who cares the most and declare yourself the winner, go ahead.

As for the situation, I truly wish I could help more. Is the abuse still going on? If it is, and the cops won't act, can you at least find out why? Robert's suggestion is great - if the girl is willing to testify and the cops just don't want to hear it, then I think the media probably will. All the broadcasters have tip-off numbers, but I'd go with the ABC first. If you tell us more about the situation maybe we'll have other ideas.

If you aren't talking to us anymore, fine, your call.

I'm sorry I took 48 hours to get back to this thread. But neither Robert nor I deserved that abuse.

Vanilla, I'm sorry to hear that PALEIF's attack got to you so intensly.

Nothing either of us have done (or failed to do) on this thread deserved that level of nastiness and as far as I'm aware you don't have a history with PALEIF to provoke it. PALEIF and I have clashed previously so I'm somewhat used to it although not recently.

Since you have joined the forum I've quickly grown to greatly appreciate your posts and the values and mind that show through them.

I took it as a compliment when PALEIF suggested that we might not be different posters ("Robert and Vanilla if they are different posters - http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1432#26978"

You are doing a great thing by starting and contributing to this thread. Please stick with it. There is much for us all to learn. I've found it very helpful so far.

R0bert

R0bert,

Thank you. I love you a little bit. I also take it as a compliment we're the same poster. In fact, let's pretend we are, should the need arise.

But I was a bit sooky in my last post and I'm embarrassed now - I apologise to all, including and especially PALE (who, by the by R0bert, I've never encountered before, no. We're not talking HRS here are we?) Seriously though, sorry, I honestly just got a shock about where the thread was heading. It's a free country, and as I said in my last post, if you really believe I'm the enemy PALE, then you should react (and act) on that.

Meanwhile, I'll think more about the actual issue tomorrow

Posted by Vanilla, Friday, 1 February 2008 6:39:58 PM
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 1 February 2008 6:56:51 PM
?
Robert you know very well the coment was directed at you. I remain unconvinced that V and R are two people.
Its clear you ignored pales post for all to see.

Your dislike of pale has led you to be most unfair to a victim and I am deeply dissapointed about that.

I am sure in your own way so will you be.

You ignored our plea for help for this person . Thats cruel.

I made the FATAL mistake to make matters worse of drawing the victims attention to this thread. I could kick myself for doing that.

Re your question= Is the abuse still happening. No the victim is here with us and the offender is in NSW however the neighbour has kids and nobody will help.
A current affair said he could sue for slander because the police have not charged him= Hilarious because if they had then there wouldnt be a story would there.

The police said I could not warn the neighbour because if she told him then he could sue me
.
I will file myself in court next week and seek leave to speak on behalf of the victim as they can not afford lawyers.
Its all about making him stand in front of someone and be accountable not money.

Of course the court will bemost unimpressed however we will get it on record we did it ourselves because the justice sytem failed the victim- yet again
I hope this thread in some way helps to ease your pain and !sorry! its ended this way.

PALEIF, I've got no desire to get back into another fight with you. That benefits nobody.

As I said previously I didn't attempt to answer your question because I didn't think I had anything significant to contribute and the matter is one where uninformed opinions seem out of place. I assume that with your organisations role in dealing with the media and the legal contacts you have mentioned on a number of occasions that anything I can offer would have already been considered. I'm sorry that it appeared otherwise to you.

Whilst I don't have any personal fondness for you I try not to let it be a driver. If you ask a question that I think I can help with I will try to do so.

Vanilla and I are different people. I have only ever operated the one account on OLO, never changed names, never used someone elses acoount and to the best of my knowledge nobody else has ever used my account.

Now can we get back to discussing the halting of sexual abuse of boys (and where relevant any sexual abuse)?

Do you know why the police refuse to act?

R0bert

Hello Dear People,

Well this just goes to show how high emotions can run on this Forum.
Because all of you care so very much. Bless the lot of you - I'd like to give you all a hug...

You're doing everything you can to help - and that says a great deal.
Just relax a little, take a deep breath, and start again...

I'll keep on searching the web for anything else that I can find that may be of use as well.

Robert
This has not happend to me. It has happend to as I said a person I have been helping.

I take your comment on board re Vanilla and if that is the truth then I was wrong and owe him and yourself an apology.

In particular I was interested to hear opinions on the question I raised about the gay comunity being used as a lessor sentance by abusers for under aged boys.

I can see there would be a opening a mile wide for a gay abuser to gain a lessor sentence by pleading he was unaware the victim was underage.

Perhaps Vanilla might make comment on that question.


Have you checked with any trained people as to the effects of re hashing this.

What I mean is does it help the victim to talk about the abuse?


I paid for council for the person I was refering to and phys but do you know what Robert.

I reckon from what I saw of that person it did more "harm" than good.

Each time after appointments there would be this anger which btw was often directed at myself.

That made me think well this certainly isnt working and being more determined to MAKE the police act.

The police said they can not find any other complaints against him and there is no real evidence of a life of abuse.

There is not one but three expert opinion reports and a still living witness the GRANDMOTHER who wants to do a police report before she dies.

Its just very slack of the police but lets face it very common also as they are sretched to the limit trying to cope.

We posted on this thread=

1 Because we thought you both may have advise for this victim.

2 Thought By supporting it may help you to have more personal support to you.

Very well we got that part wrong.

Best wishes with your efforts to bring abuse of boys to attention. Its a good Cause "well over due."

Luka - Suzanne Vega / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZyxYL753w4

My name is Luka
I live on the second floor
I live upstairs from you
Yes I think you've seen me before
If you hear something late at night
Some kind of trouble, some kind of fight
Just don't ask me what it was
Just don't ask me what it was
Just don't ask me what it was

I think it's because I'm clumsy
I try not to talk too loud
Maybe it's because I'm crazy
I try not to act too proud
They only hit until you cry
And after that you don't ask why
You just don't argue anymore
You just don't argue anymore
You just don't argue anymore

Yes I think I'm okay
I walked into the door again
Well, if you ask that's what I'll say
And it's not your business anyway
I guess I'd like to be alone
With nothing broken, nothing thrown
Just don't ask me how I am
Just don't ask me how I am
Just don't ask me how I am

And they only hit until you cry
And after that you don't ask why
You just don't argue anymore
You just don't argue anymore
You just don't argue anymore

Vanilla and R0bert, I would hate you to think I settled any differences with PALE&IF just looking after my own possible grievance. I dislike that kind of self-interest.

As has been mentioned, blind Freddy can't miss the strong feelings this subject engenders. We can only continue to rail against this, the vilest form of abuse on the planet. Abuse of ANY life form is abhorrent.

Rainer;-I never really realized the significance of that song. Now I do.

PALEIF, I assume that the same issue that you mention about support for the gay community applies to the hetrosexual community as well. Adults intefering with people at a significantly different development stage to themselves.

I struggle with the way we handle the idea of an age of consent, I don't know how workable it is but would like to see the age difference between those engaged in a sexual act taken into account unless both parties are well and truly adults. A 16 year old having a relationship with a 15 year old is a whole different situation to a 30 year old doing so. Probable not the right thread to elaborate on that.

I've not had discussions with professionals about the impacts of seeking help. I noticed some material in the reading I've done that suggests some problems associated with dealing with abuse but my overall impression is that those problems are less significant than not dealing with it. Maybe a bit like having surgery to have something fixed, the recovery from surgery may hurt, it may leave us with some permanent incapacity but generally it's better than not having the problem fixed.

I've not had enough exposure to this issue to be offering advice, it's a topic that I want to learn something about in part because I have a son. I'd hate for him to be a victim of abuse because I didn't know how to protect him. I've learned already from the material that Vanilla and Foxy found as well as what I've found following up on those links.

Good luck and best wishes for your efforts to try and help the girl you are working with.

Rainer thanks for that post.

R0bert

Foxy
Your so wise and kind seeing only the good. I hope you may influence this thread as it goes along.

I am not going to dignify (pale I dont like you )or others slurs with a reply to same level.

Its in general brings down the standard of the forum OLO and especially this thread.

WE will continue to push to get the police to act against this abuser and support the victim.

I thought it was rather rude to be honest to have ignored the request for advise for this victim and I said so.

That said we will leave you all now to get on with the topic at hand and perhaps there is another forum somewhere that this victim could join.
That is a idea that would never have occured to me until I saw Vanilla and Roberts posts.
If people are not mature enough to debate a topic without chilish personal insults theres little I can do to change that.
Sad as it may be for them mainly.

So thank You Vanilla for this thread. Great idea.

Kept off this post because, unlike the majority of you, my identity has been compromised and many know who I am. Which is fine in regards to my own business but impacts when talking of people I know, which may happen here. However I've been involved with this issue for a long time so something I say might help?

Seems there are 3 issues here currently:

1) the original post re abuse of boys.
O.K., now somebody mentioned something about taking it up oneself? This is, I am convinced, one very real way of helping. When I took on the issues both of mental health and male suicide I did not represent any community, organisation or Government Department. I went around to schools, men's clubs, women's organisations, community service clubs, churches etc.and talked. And talked. And talked.(And cried and laughed)

Raising consciousness and making the ENTIRE community aware is a biggie. I have a huge number of files on people who came forward and on-going projects that thus evolved.

2) Help for the person whom PALEIF are concerned about. Guys, I hear you and understand your emotional response. It's disgracefull, heinous and heart-breaking. Its also very difficult to give advice because there is no blueprint. No two people will react to abuse in the same way. If counselling is not working it just may not be the answer. Or the actual counsellor might not be the right person.

3) The person you want to help has access to this thread? Then if she wants to e.mail me personally - through Graham initially - I'm here if she needs to talk. I've been there myself too, remember.

Romany, who are you?

Romany,

Wow- Thats awfully nice of you. Thanks so much Romany. I have been reading this thread with interest but wasnt game to post because Robert doesnt like me either and I didnt want to have the thread diverted or reduced to personal swipes as we see above.
I addmitt I am guilty of being a member of pale but Romany I am a member of many things. I felt I wanted to say THANKS for the victim because I have met the victim. I dont know if they would contact you or not because I guess there is only so much one can take of being dissapointed but when I see that person I will try to encourage them to do so.
The counciling has been done by a trained phyc and also the sexual abuse unit through the department.
I know that the other lady helping the victim has also many times tries to get some help to make the police charge him through brave hearts Hetti Jonhston.
I also know they simply do not get back to people and are really rude on the phone. I know that because i made three calls there myself regarding this victim after attending the lawyers with them and he insisted that brave hearts were informed.
What i dont get is why the police dont at least charge him and put him through the courts. The lawyer said many of thse people are easily broken down in the witness box. Anyway the police know there is a eye witness to provide a statement (The grandmother) who apparently still cries herself to sleep from whay she she and feels guilty she couldnt stop it.
I am just wondering what more the police want. Robert I see you have now responded to pales post.
Thats good and BTW I wish you all the best in your posting and life in general.
I agree it took guts to tell your story.
And Romany - thank you and God bless You.

Taryn,

PALE said they had already contacted A Current Affair, I think? HHmm. Well, sometimes there are more ways of skinning a cat...

ACA said they wouldn't do it because of the laws of slander etc? Well perhaps another angle, like "Community Loses Faith in Police" and, without naming names use all the info mentioned here: Eye witness ignored, person still at risk, 5 days with no result from police, "alleged" perpetrator still free etc. etc. Its also important that when contacting media one stresses whats in it for Them e.g. controversial story. Don't be too emotional. After all, they are not actually in the business of helping people when you think about it objectively. Thats just a good result (with perhaps another follow-up story). They are in the business of getting viewers and controversy + police + community (not one person's) dissatisfaction could make a good story.

As to the young person. Sometimes a victim (though I don't like to use that word) can get the feeling that professional shrinks, counsellors etc. have theoretical but not practical knowledge. Even if they've "seen it all before".

You feel like an insect under a microscope. You also feel that They are somehow "better" than you because it hasn't happened to Them. You feel a sort of barrier. That's why sometimes its good to talk to other people who know exactly the kinds of things you are feeling. And who have come out the other end.

Instead, and without warning.. sychophantic admiration (peer and self) killed off this discussion...

Vanilla,

Ah hell, girl. I was saddened to see that you had cried. As I have said before: I am a complete wimp and have ended up in tears often after reading OLO comments.

I think that when strangers meet only through printed words there is sooo much room for misunderstanding. For example, I am waiting for someone to start on me for striding into this thread only at the end and putting in my two cents worth: must come across like an ole busybody.

Robert once said something very wise about people processing information through their own perspectives which, dammit, I can't quite remember. But I guess, having been put through the wringer over their on-going nasty experiences with cops and lawyers etc., the people trying to help this young person are feeling jaded and at the end of their respective ropes.

When I was accused of being "smug" and "self-righteous" (see, it still rankles)I went through agonies and collared friends, colleagues...god, even the lady down at the local shop... for D & Ms for weeks.

Also have always remembered someone on the Mouseketeers(!!) saying that we never remember the good things people say about us, only the bad things. So go have a glass of red, a couple of belly-laughs at Bertie Wooster, and then think about all the good things you've ever been told.

How do we halt the sexual abuse of boys?
How do we halt the sexual abuse of boys?
How do we halt the sexual abuse of boys?
How do we halt the sexual abuse of boys?

Ranier. I don't know. That's why I asked the question. The stuff you brought up about judging safe environments was really interesting. I'm sure in the case of boys there's an element of "boys can look after themselves". It cuts to the heart of what I find so frustrating about the whole thing - we need kids to talk to adults more, and yet apparently their instincts, when being abused, are to talk less.

PALE&IF: "there would be a opening a mile wide for a gay abuser to gain a lessor sentence by pleading he was unaware the victim was underage.Perhaps Vanilla might make comment."

Maybe. I haven't heard of it in the gay community but I know it certainly happens in the straight community - "she told me she was 17" etc. There's a weird case in SA right now. http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23138183-5006301,00.html

I'm sorry I can't help your friend more. All I can suggest is hassling the police. You need to find out why they won't prosecute in order to work around that. If they won't help - if they're not acting on evidence - complain to the QLD ombudsman. (Better than Minister's office - they have to act.

You are in QLD, right? Have you been in contact with the Suspected Child Abuse and Neglect team: http://www.childsafety.qld.gov.au/partners/government/scan.html

Your next option, of course, is a civil case. Has the lawyer suggested anything about that?

As for your friend, there are lots of online support groups for people who've been abused.
http://www.sssalas.com/EmotionalHealing.html
http://reachout.com.au/home.asp
http://www.sandf.org/

Also, you said that there is an eyewitness to the abuse in another country. I'm assuming you've already done this, but if not, you need to get this person to write down or record their testimony - preferably as an affidavit (i.e. signed by a JP).

Also, PALE&IF, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran, wasn't talking about child abusers but gay people.

Ranier: "Instead, and without warning.. sychophantic admiration (peer and self) killed off this discussion..."
Apologies for my part in this.

Romany. Thanks. Heaps.

Vanilla
Thanks so much. Will pass it on. The Abuser is in NSW not QLD and this went right up to the Ministers office just prior to the elections.
It was discused with the advisor himself on several occasions with demands of action.

Both the federal and state police have it with similar phone calls.

The cop out is despite they know there is a witness still alive that someof the offences took place in another country - despite the fact it still contiuned here.

He was the step father BTW. So I went back to the Ministers office and said do you realise you have a loop hole in the law where @@@ can get away and contiune to break the laws here walking around free to reoffend.
They said No we dont. I yes YES YOU DO- I also contacted ALP Shadow Mininster - nothing.- Less helpful actually

Upon contacting a current affair etc they said no way we could be sued with no proof. Itold them there was a witness- NO

The police warned me NOT to call the unsuspecting neighbour with the kids because if it got back to the abuser he could sue for defamation.
This week papers will be filed and we will take it to court ourselves not for money just because the victim needs to see him answerable to someone even if he gets off.

Giving the statenment was very hard for the victim so its been dissapointing all round.

I dont think re hashing it with councilers helps one bit from what I have seen.
They do more harm than good IMOP
A big day our with a cricket bat would be my idea of theopy
Thanks also to Robert for his ideas.
Good by Everyone We dont feel comfortable here I am sorry.
Sorry too Vanilla if I got it wrong.
PS the thread was for boys only so apoligise but I was feeling desperate and thought someone may know far more than me.
Way out of my comfort zone- Thank Goodness

Rainier, - don't think the thread has fizzled out; there was just a bit of a misunderstanding. Personally would rather see people sorting stuff straight away than see animosity growing and disrupting things even more.

Was the self admiration comment directed at me? See, I bloody KNEW I would end up sounding like that!

What I was trying to point out was that making the community at large aware of the abuse that goes on, getting them to talk about it, de-mystify it, explain about it, try to define it, look for answers together...all of that can go a long way to helping. And the thing is that this is action that can be taken independently without waiting for Government Commissions, or new laws or media advertising campaigns. Campaigning for all of which can go on concurrently with pro-activity.

Because unless we are going to be with our kids 24/7 there is absolutely no way we can guarantee its not going to happen to them. Maybe now I sound like a "self-admiring" doom-sayer but tough t's. Thats one of the horrible truths about this subject and one which underlies a lot of peoples reluctance to talk about it: we just don't want to be reminded how helpless we actually are to prevent it.

The reasons so many abused people don't tell are myriad and varied but the message that needs to be absorbed is:
It's not your fault
It's not your fault
It's not your fault.

The community as a whole needs to be educated so that it never enters their heads that someone was "asking for it" or is "a bit of a poof at heart" or "shouldn't have got themselves into that situation in the first place" or "should have known better" or any of the other obscenely judgemental things both adults and peers say when the subject is discussed.

Raising consciousness is something we are all capable of doing.