As the new Leader for this Nation we would like to know what type of example Mr Rudd is going to set.
Is he going to be like the many other Christians we have seen in the past and turn his back on the unforgiverable suffering of millions of factory farmed and intensive farmed Animals in this country.?
We all saw John Howard run the Steve Irwin for cover when the peak of the Coromo express was aired on 60 minutes.
Somehow He thought sitting at the Zoo nursing Bindi would take some of the heat out of his neglect of Animals.
" Strange to me it highlighted it"
Is PM Rudd going to be any different?
Or is he going to hide behind the Church Hymes too?

John Howard also saw nothing wrong with one of his team "Amada" having shares in the piggery that was exposed by the wonderful efforts of Animal Liberation.
Will PM Rudd assure the public he wont tolerate this?

Ok its Christmass- How may of you thought about where your pork came from?

We must face the fact that pigs are kept in the most mentally cruel and physical conditions where they cant even trun around.
Where they stand there screaming and chewing at the metal bars- Slowly going mad.

I Know this is not what God Intended for his Animal Kingdom.

Enjoy your Christmass everybody but please remember to write Mr PM Rudd and let him know we expect Intensive farming replaced by FREE RANGE for All Animals.

A nation Can Be judge by its treatment of Animals Mr Rudd
Gandi

why stop there, demand hand-made tofu as well!

Pale

A nation which tortures its animals has no future.

The rampant plague of inhumanity inflicted on animals is endorsed by our members of parliament and this will continue until the last miserable chicken, the last goat, the last camel, and the last sheep and cattle are tortured beyond belief and slaughtered for our pleasure.

And our citizens appear oblivious to the diseases now rampant in intensively farmed animals where man must continue to deal with current and emerging zoonotic outbreaks of lethal inflictions passed from animals to humans.

This is absurd since man has neither metaphysical justification nor essential connection to the universe. He is part of no divine scheme and, since he is mortal, all of his heinous actions, individual and collective will eventually lead to his demise.

The moral and physical demise of humans has been hastened by the silence of good men who do nothing and remain mute when they witness the following abomination of man's barbaric treatment of other species which will continue to contribute significantly to the environmental destruction of this already fragile planet:

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=meet_your_meat&Player=flv

Dickie
The meat Industry which also drives live exports for trade deals has been put in place by Bush and the USA.

Packer and others had a hand in establishing much of this utter shame.

To be perfectly honest it was a complicated mess.

Even Vaile Downer and Howard would have had difficulty unravelling it "if" they had wanted to - or cared which they didnt.

There have been more deals done and done deals put together over the last twenty years off these Animals backs and mostly its had rather little to do with providing meat!

Now as we start to watch the USA slide and Bush topple is the "perfect" time for Rudd to act.

Although most Australians are unaware of where disease comes from and virus such as bird flue overseas "are" aware.

They are very interested in Australias Free Green disease nil farms.

That makes Kevin Rudds jobs easy to send his Minister for Trade Austrade, MLA reps to talk with live importers to give them the first oportunity to re establish their plants with Aussie Farmers and partners.

Farmers Federations and other organisations have addmitted they have had enquires from Maylasia and other people asking to meet with farmers direct to discuss reopening plants to stop live exports and provide healthy meat.

They simly WONT pass the information onto farmers!

They are totally driven by behind the Vaile - You scratch my back and I will grease your palm deals.

This is protected and eforced by the Governments.

Worst of all its protected by the media. SHAME ON THEM.

However- NOW is the perfect time for the new PM Kevin Rudd to show leadership provide employement in regional areas and some common decency towards our Australian Farm Animals.

We will be suggesting he meet with people who WOULD promote share farms and abattoirs with Aussie Farmers and he will be expected to provide incentives.
The same amount at very least provided to the cruel live exporters and Instensive Farmers.

Just give free range farmers the SAME support as Live Shipping agents get PM Rud

Hi all
I think we can get a fair indication of where Kevin Rudd stands on animal welfare by his summarily shafting Senator Kerry O'Brien with indecent haste after he threatened the live export trade on "Landline" just before the election. Senator O'Brien made some pretty clear statements to begin with, then started to back away when the usual squealing started from the farmers. Now we've got another brainwashed idiot to deal with. I'm glad I didn't trust them,. and voted Green.
Nicky

A huge grin this thread!
Female debating style you know switch the subject never refer to the real issues blame every one.
Are we to believe the nations future depends of free range eggs and such?
My turkey, well it was chooks in fact like most came via mass production as did the hams.
Makes me evil? my country lead by a dreadful man?
I do not think the thread does anything for animal welfare.
Now I am concerned about the beer! was the grain used treated fairly?
Tasted ok but you never know!
I truly do not think some serve animal welfare but make a good course laughable.

Belly

= Wendy Lewthwaite the President of pale=

-You clearly have the mentality of a five year old - if that.

To laugh and applaude the most barbaric treatment of Animals for nothing other than greed is unforgivable.

You belly?- sung a different tune when I commented on the dreadful and discusting piggery partly owned by Amanda Vanestone and a few other Liberals several months ago.

You have gone on about the ill treatment of puppies being sold.

Are you saying that only dogs should be treated with some codes of practise?

We are not a saying everybody should stop eating meat.

We are saying people wanting to open free range farms and abattoirs should be "given just as much assistance" as the intensive suppliers.

WE are saying- Dont throw the fair Go out the back door!

There is absolute proof that bird flue , foot and mouth and zillions of other diseases "come from intensive farming."

So now we know you couldnt care less about barbaric unnessary cruelty to Gods creatures.

Also you dont see pumping drugs into these poor tormented creatures and feeding our kids is creating monster diseases that the world can not control.

It also produces huge amounts of green house gasses and pushes the real farmers who grow free range out of the market.

The AMIEU have long campainged for changes.

So what your saying is the Labour AMIEU guys and women -Do Not have your support.

Umm interesting coming from a Union Leader in the SAME party.

The back stabbing and cracks are showing already and we are not into the new year.


Its not much of a bloke that laughs at Animal Cruelty.

Oh and I am a bushy who unlike you does understand farming.

I will send a copy of this thread to AMIEU heads and PM Rudd to ask is this the general attitude of ALP or do they just keep the gooses hidden for the poor unsuspecting bosses trying to make a quid to provide jobs for Aussies.

Nicky

Kerry was never going to be the man.
I would be interested to know however if he knew that.

Its possible Land Line comments were staged to get the votes of millions of people.

I think most were sus and took the safer bet by supporting the Greens as you did.

The sqealing from the farmers is organised by the heads of Farmers Federations and others that have been traitors to the very farmers they are meant to assist.



The Intensive farming industry low lifes and live exporters have the heads of Farmers Federations MLA Austrade just to mention a few by the balls.


Nicky please remember Kerry Obrien was representing a Rudd Government.

PM Rudd IS EXPECTED to live up to what was promised by one of HIS reps of Government regarding Animal Welfare accorss the broad.

Should Rudd NOT live up to those promises then we will have to look at a faulse election promise by way of enquiry.

Tony Burke" Seems to be a favouite name of PM Rudd has come out in strong support of Live Exports and Intensive Farms??

So we must ask Kevin o7 is he a lier and cheat- both- or is Mr Burke going against Mr Rudds election promises.?

Its one or the other.= or both.

You have heavy weights like LandMark Elders. Lets face it the Howard Government gave Elders and Optus a billion dollars? to help the establishing comunications.

You may ask well if such big players are involved how are we ever going to stop this.

The Answer is by bring in even heavier players.

Some of the Saudi and Maylasian Companies are very interested but nobody is game to help them- or 'interested to' [ Yet]

Because Australia is so envied MANY wise thinking reps from overseas HAVE called Farmers Federations to make enquires and requests regarding establishing Free Range Farms of ALL sorts along side our Australian Farmers.

Farmers Federations have NOT passed on this information to the Australian Farmers and have "ignored" all enquires coming direct from buyers.

There is a battle raging at the moment within the pig industry over free range. The big guys know that there is huge demand and had planned to sneak in the new label 'bred' free range to dupe consumers into buying an intensively reared product. 'bred' free range is a system where sows are kept in barren paddocks totally devoid of any vegetation. They do give birth outside but their piglets are taken away at 3 weeks of age and still have all those unnecessary procedures inflicted on them, tail docking etc. They are then moved to huge sheds for the rest of their growing stage.

People believe this product to be free range when it is not.

You guys can actually do something to help the free range farmers get standards in place to stop this deceptive advertising. Have a chat to the pig while you are there.

http://www.pigout.net.au

Fill out the survey and send it to as many people as you can. There is a link on the page to do that.

It seems the powers that be want to know what people think free range is before they will take any action.

Here is another interested comment on the subject from CHOICE
http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.aspx?id=106111&catId=100570&tid=100011&p=1&title=Free-range+or+free-range+bred%3f

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/la/qala.nsf/6b9957d2cbad5bd8ca25700b00232203/fea43c234e89005bca2573a1002fca8a!OpenDocument

Can anyone tell me why we use pink-skinned pigs for the domestic market in Australia? I dont know stacks about pigs and piggeries, but I do know that pink-skinned pigs are very easily sunburned and develop skin cancers if outside for very much time at all. My understanding is that this is why they are generally kept in sheds. Black-skinned pigs dont suffer the same problems, but are usually only associated with the feral population. I am unsure as to why they cant be used in domestic production??

Given that the price of Australian pork is currently below the cost of production, I am sure that many (particularly smaller) producers would turn to free-range if it was viable - think of the costs of sheds, lighting etc, no business would shoulder these burdens if there wasnt a good reason for them.

I dont like unnecessary handling and poor treatment of animals any more than the next person, but am also able to realise that there are often reasons behind why some things are done that extend further than simply profit motive.

Thank you for your post Belly.

It reveals that you are actually a jackal in sheep's clothing - an imposter of the worst kind.

You, Belly are typical of the union representative that workers do not need. You are the hypocritical union rep. who would dish out favours to a few for personal gain whilst exploiting the trust of the majority.

Only the cowardly "run with the hares and hunt with the hounds", Belly.

And you continue to bang on about the plight of abandoned pets whilst sneering and giggling at those who agonise over the sadistic torture of animals in the intensive farming industry.

You are a moral pygmy:

"A huge grin this thread!
"Now I am concerned about the beer! was the grain used treated fairly?
Tasted ok but you never know!
I truly do not think some serve animal welfare but make a good course laughable."

Well I do have a problem with your grammar, Belly however I believe your sick comments above are truly befitting of the jackal who preys on the defenceless.

Definition of jackal (synonym):

An accomplice or a lackey who aids in the commission of base or disreputable acts.

Come be fair dinkum pale! tell it like it is, in a thread about Aboriginal stolen generation read it again pale.
And see the one about a ten year old girl raped!
See some one posting as pale say it was grog alone that is to blame.
The lack of concern for that child.
The blaming of grog for Aboriginals present and past problems.
How can you show more compassion for animals than humans?
Read the comment pale posted that Aboriginals raped their own children before whites came.
Be fair dinkum pale! your childlike insults to unions are barbed meant to hurt.
My fishing trip in this thread has got you trousers down, you can hand it out but not take it!
I do not like animal cruelty in any form, have looked in horror at that recent film from middle east killing sheds of Australian cattle.
But your post was not aimed at anything other than insulting a bloke who has lead us for a month and two days.
You targeted his religion and just about every thing about him.
Review your childish insults to me, ask why do you get so upset if I remind you your views are far from mainstream.
That in my honestly held view others best serve animal welfare in Australia?
If the group known as pale are all that stands between animal cruelty and a better way this country is in trouble.
The pale car park is again on show here in your thread you do your group more harm than good.

"We must face the fact that pigs are kept in the most mentally cruel and physical conditions where they cant even trun around.
Where they stand there screaming and chewing at the metal bars- Slowly going mad."

Well putting them out of their misery seems like an act of great kindness. I'll enjoy my plate of Christmas flesh all the more knowing that my carnivorous predilections have helped to create a market that saves these creatures from such torture.

Pass the crackling.

“Can anyone tell me why we use pink-skinned pigs for the domestic market in Australia?”

Because black hairs show on the carcass. Pigs are not skinned, they are dehaired but only the hair on the surface is removed, the dark follicles show and people are offended by that. Probably confronts them with exactly what they are eating. BTW Woolworths refuse any animals with colour.

“no business would shoulder these burdens if there wasnt a good reason for them.”

There was a very good reason – the ability to cram 1,000’s of pigs onto minimal acreage. Keep them controlled and contained (minimal handling) Pigs were very profitable around 30 – 40 years ago when these systems came in. It has been in decline since. To compete, the big guys just kept getting bigger. Economy of scale was the only way to make money from pigs in the end.

“but am also able to realise that there are often reasons behind why some things are done that extend further than simply profit motive”

Nope, no other reason. Up until 1960 the majority of pig farms in australia were free range but they were small. It is impossible to farm large numbers (talking tens of thousands) in a free range environment, so they put them in intensive sheds and have been trying to justify doing that ever since.

A white pig survives quite nicely when born to the outdoors. The pigs that come from factory farms have very little hair and very white delicate skin. An outdoor pig has a lot of hair that protects it from the sun, tougher skin and hasn’t had the brains bred out of it (behavioural instincts still in tact) It knows to cover itself in mud as a sunscreen.

“Well putting them out of their misery seems like an act of great kindness. I'll enjoy my plate of Christmas flesh all the more knowing that my carnivorous predilections have helped to create a market that saves these creatures from such torture”

That’s a rather naïve comment mhaze. Did you think yours was the last of them?

Belly
There are zero posts from pale on the aboriginal thread.

Taryn who is part aboriginal posted.

“This thread” is about intensive farming and questioning what the new PM intends to do about it.

Clearly you didnt read our web page showing our” MOUs with aboriginal councils and work projects under taken”!.

I am afraid you have shown your true self by you first post which is highly offensive and you deserve each word Dickie addressed to you and much more.

Back on topic your arrogant unbelievable ignorant comments have revealed you could not care less about cruelty to Animals.
‘
You don’t educate yourself as to what is going on.

Rudd is now the PM and it’s up to him to do the right thing.

This may come as a huge shock to you but Kevin Rudd is well aware of the conflict over intensive farming and live exports.

So unless you are suggesting that because he’s only been there one month and two days he’s not fit or ready to run this country or take responsibility? I cant see your problem.

I don’t know what religion Kevin Rudd is.

All Church leaders clearly have a duty to lead the way and speak out against cruelty to Gods Creatures is all I know.

Why don’t you try reading PF post Belly?


I am sure the pigs won’t mind how you learn the truth just so long as when you do you actually help pass out the forms to all and every person and member you know including neighbors and friends.

PF There is a area on OLO to post petitions and other information. Can you put the survey on there please?
If not perhaps we can as members. I am not sure how GY does it.

Will send to university’s and try to pay for some radio and newspaper adds- Plus print out and pay for letter box drops. Get vets to respond.

Also put on RSPCA QLD web site.
How long have we got?

Hi all
PF - thanks once again for some great information. I've been to the site, voted and circulated it. As for Belly, I don't really think we need to consider his or her comments with any seriousness; there is a dropkick in every thread. The only point I would make is that keeping pigs in such brutal, barren environments is NO DIFFERENT from puppy farming. Both are synonymous with egregious cruelty involving living, sensitive creatures and we have no right to do it to any animal. See the "What is Animal Welfare" link at www.liveexportshame.com for further information.
Dickie, as always, I am with you.
I don't think the religion to which Kevin Rudd belongs is the issue here, it is ethics and morality. He has placed in the DAFF portfolio someone who has come out fighting for the live export trade (which would suggest that he would have no problem with intensive farming either). Rudd himself expressed support for live exports earlier in the year. By replacing O'Brien with Burke, Rudd can absolve himself from honouring any commitments O'Brien made.
It doesn't even come to the "core and non-core promise" issue, Rudd promised nothing and that is precisely what he will deliver in animal welfare. That is the real hypocrisy with these so-called "Christians".
The fact that rivers of blood of innocent animals run in Australia as they do everywhere else, in the name of religion (the birth of Christ in this instance) is the biggest hypocrisy of all. People will stand in cold water all day and all night to save one whale. Why should farmed animals be so cruelly disregarded?
Nicky

PF - for your information, I just found this letter in a Tasmanian newspaper.

The Sunday Tasmanian 23 Dec 07

Congratulations to Against Animal Cruelty Tasmania for saving little Miss Celeste the piglet, and if only it could have been more. By buying intensively farmed ham and pork products, the Australian community is endorsing the most terrible cruelty to pigs, who are highly sensitive, intelligent animals, born and reared under truly appalling conditions.

For those people who deplore this cruelty, but still feel they must have meat at Christmas (or indeed any time, as the majority seem to), we believe it is important that products be properly labelled, detailing whether the animals have been kept under intensive, or "factory" farmed conditions.

Supermarkets say that they "only buy from producers who comply with the Code/s of Practice", but people do not know that these codes expressly provide for this cruelty. It is also worth noting that the term "humanely slaughtered" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the RSPCA and/or AACT should be providing this information so that consumers can make informed choices about the meat and eggs they buy, now and at any other time if they choose to buy such products.

Catherine Cooke
STOP TASMANIAN ANIMAL CRUELTY, TAS

Nicky

Right that's done PF.

Guess you won't get any answers from Ministers now until March or later. I've learnt that these dodgy characters take little notice of "questions in parliament" anyway.

However, the important part is that these questions remain in Hansard for all to see if they so choose. The other strategy is to pursue pollies of all parties and request they present various questions in parliament at different times.

Well said Nicky. My sentiments too.

And I understand it was 44 degrees in Perth on Christmas day and the highest temperature around the world for a Christmas.

Imagine the plight of the factory farmed, crated pig on a day like that!

"Because crowding creates an environment conducive to the spread of disease, pigs in factory farms are fed and sprayed with huge amounts of pesticides and antibiotics. The pesticides and antibiotics remain in their bodies and are passed on to people who eat them, creating serious human health hazards.

"Pigs and other factory-farmed animals in the US are fed 20 million pounds of antibiotics each year, and scientists believe that meat-eaters’ involuntary consumption of these drugs is giving rise to strains of bacteria that are resistant to treatment."

Ah yes.....ignorance is bliss, wouldn't you agree, mhaze? I wonder how many humans have now died as a result of bacteria which are now resistant to all known antibiotics, thanks to this cruel and unethical industry.

Already, hundreds of patients are discharged suffering Golden Staph and other resistant infections - infections they did not have when they were admitted to hospital for unrelated medical conditions.

Nicky said
Rudd promised nothing and that is precisely what he will deliver in animal welfare. That is the real hypocrisy with these so-called "Christians".
pale replies.
Well no thats incorrect actually.
The ALP put forward their campainge and policy`s the same as the Libs.
Kerry Obrien did that interview on Land Line ABC with the full support of Kevin Rudd.

This was their agreed message to the Australian voters from ALP Rudd Camp.
Kerry Obrien is still in the ALP and So is Rudd just in case nobody has noticed.
We cant afford to let Rudd off the hook by breaking election promises to the Australian People.
Nor should we take it so lightly by saying oh well - They lied.
Rudd endorced every interview done by his party.

In fact their were very few for a federal election.

The Interview and promises made by the Rudd Government to the public must be honoured.

Letting him off the hook is not on the agenda.

A petition insisting Kevin Rudd honour his parties pre election promises is required.

"A petition insisting Kevin Rudd honour his parties pre election promises is required."

That's a good idea PALE.

However, there is a protocol for a parliamentary petition where the salutation must be correctly addressed - the details I've forgotten.

I actually do have a pro-forma, however, all my possessions at present are sealed in packing crates.

Can you advise the appropriate lay-out?

Ah you are in trouble now Belly. The girls have their broomsticks
out of their closests, so watch out ! :)

Animals Australia's petition before the Senate has about 200,000 signatures, and can be downloaded from its liveexport-indefensible pages.

PALE, I think we know politicians well enough to know that it is too easy for Rudd to now come out and say that O'Brien's comments were his opinions and do not commit the ALP to anything. If he had the slightest intention of doing anything about the live export trade, he wouldn't have appointed his new pitbull to come out yapping in support of the trade. The farmers even got to O'Brien between his "Landline" statements and the election to the extent that he started to back off. The greatest loss to the political landscape as far as animal welfare is concerned is Andrew Bartlett.

Dickie, you are absolutely right about the pigs. As if their lives are not appalling enough without the heat as well. You wonder, if people care nothing for the cruelty, why they do not care about the disease risks. I'd encourage everyone to follow the links that PF provided and do the survey there. Gestation crates are banned in the UK, being phased out in the UE, banned in some US States, and Smithfield (US) and Maple Leaf (Canada) are voluntarily phasing them out because of public pressure. Pig farmers here are crying poor about imports, when in fact, it may be that the tide is turning with public pressure, and the free-range pig farmers will be the winners (and rightly so).

Nicky

Nicky, I'd say that the pig story is quite predictable and will be
interested to see if I'm wrong.

If we look at say chicken, perhaps 20% will focus on where their
pork came from and aim to buy free range, 80% will focus on price
and buy imported factory farmed. As long as the label looks good,
they really don't care.

PF, I noticed in another thread that you provided some information about the long haul transport and live export of pigs. Could you provide a bit more detail for us please? I think your comment had to do with the ships as well - the ships ARE problems; nearly all those used are 20-25 years old, and have been converted from oil tankers, car transporters etc. I'd find it hard to believe that any are equipped to carry pigs with any comfort, although I understand that they are for breeding purposes which possibly improves things. There is loads of information about the ships at www.liveexportshame.com - search for a document called "A Disaster by any other name".

This letter was in the Geelong Advertiser 24 Dec 07

When you eat your pork, ham, turkey or chicken at Christmas, spare a thought for the animal who never got to experience fresh air, grass, or a way to express its natural behaviour. The animals who spent their short, wretchedly miserable lives so cruelly confined that they had virtually no movement at all.

Pigs, known to be more intelligent than dogs, go insane in these environments that they have to be medicated just to survive, swaying, bar biting and even screaming. When it’s time for them to be hauled out to slaughter, many are so ill they cannot walk.

Laying hens and “broiler” chickens fare just as badly. If you have never seen a hen rescued from a battery farm, you should. You place their almost featherless, frail bodies onto fresh grass and they gaze in wonderment, breathing for the first time air not rancid with excrement. Eventually they adjust, although their beaks never recover from the mutilation.

“Broiler” chickens only get to live about 6 weeks, forced to grow at a rate much more gross than their legs, hearts and lungs can sustain, in appalling conditions.

When you look at these bodies on your table at Christmas, remember these animals had faces. They felt heat, cold, pain, terror and loneliness.

Enjoy!
Suzanne Cass

Nicky

Yabby you may well be right but after a life time of activism let me assure you it Carry's no weight.
We will see zero changes as a result of this group, can those who understand the issues see us ever increasing the costs of food supplied so very much?
Pork, imported pork is cheap because farming it in other country's is cheaper.
If we follow some advice given here we could import beef cheaper than use our own.
Now as the thread dissolves into a love in I leave conversation with the group known as pale for ever, content a group other than that one is best served to look after animal welfare.
That group may insult me as they wish, nothing can convince me they in any way have the skills or understanding to represent animals.
The rudeness of the group is pointless but not unlike some groups to focused on only the female side of issues.
Will that do yabby?

Pale – we need as many surveys as we can before march. I don’t think RSPCA will put up a link, this link will help explain why. (one of the farms has RSPCA accreditation)
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/free-range-tag-on-pork-creates-a-real-stink/2007/09/17/1189881434073.html

Dickie - The intensive industry will lose pigs in that sort of heat. Can you imagine, packed in to a tin roof shed, piled on top of one another? And they justify that by saying they will get sunburned if they go outside? Some ‘nice’ pictures of how pigs should be raised http://www.melandapark.com.au/organicalbum.html

Nicky - http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/features/wafeatures-pigexports.htm

“Pork, imported pork is cheap because farming it in other country's is cheaper.” Belly, do some research honey. (that was me being all female like) Pig farming in most of the countries we import from is subsidised. I am sure Yabby was most impressed with your post and will give you a pat on the head (or a kick in the ar….)

Dickie

Of Course. Can you provide a email address or email us and thanks.
www.livexports.com
I like your style. Of course the ALP have a case to answer.

Also if you would forward a petition some of the neighbours and others have collected thousands of signatures for to the "Greens" it would be great.
This is for Live Exports and Intensive farming and there are thousands of signatures. Sort of a welcome to PM Rudd

These are from ordinary every day public. It was requested their comments were NOT waved off as coming from any paricular group.

Your just what they requested- Inderpendant.

Suzzanne Caz Andrew will return to full time Animal Welfare.

It would be helpful if he helps establish free range farms and abattoirs locally in QLD first to divert the cruelty.
Please post the link for AA petition and I will put it on OLO as well.

The most urgent at the moment is PF survey.
I have made a suggestion to PF that her experience and knowledge is requiured if she would be sort of a coordinator to get as many suveys out to the public as possible.

We would donate as much as we can so Dickie and Suzzanne can perhaps put it in their local papers and arrange letter box drops.
We are also happy to asist with radio advertsing.

However of course it is PF descion if shes prepaired to take that on.
I just think as far as intensive pig farming is concerned we have an expert posting here and it would be wise to work under her guidence and advise.

What Do you all think?

Yabby I would be very surprised if you came out now in defence of intensive pig farming.

I recall your comments on that some time ago.

Hey Yabbs- How did you know about the broom sticks? Wow I am really impressed.
You havent said Merry Christmass to your favouite girl PF yet either.

Gertrude, once again, I don't see the pig farming story as
black and white as you all do. The smartest pig farmers that
I know have shut their operations down and are doing more
profitable things with their buildings. Let somebody else
lose money. The Americans, Canadians etc are all burning $,
waiting to see who blinks first.

Pf is correct, meat marketing is being very badly done in
Australia. Consumer perceptions will sell a product to
some, its foolish to ignore that. Most lambs produced are
free range for instance, yet you will hardly ever seen written
on the packet. Huge amounts of imported pork are already sold
in Australia, yet if I want to buy Australian pork, I have to
struggle to see it anywhere on the label. It should be in
big coloured writing, easily seen!

As to intensive pig farming, methinks that they have to
get rid of the sow stalls and the concrete bunkers, which we
know have a disease problem. Progressive pig farmers have moved
on from those long ago, to straw filled shelters, where IMHO
the pigs are pretty happy, judging by what I have seen.
I do not claim to be a pig expert btw.

As to me, if I was a pig, I'd say that on a nice sunny day,
free range pigs have it far better, but on freezing cold,
rainy nights, I'd rather be in a straw filled shelter,
then on a free range farm. As I mentioned, I don't see
it as black and white as the rest of you.

What we can see from the chook industry is that around 20%
of the population will will buy free range, the other 80%
of consumers really don't care and will buy what is convenient,
or cheap or looks nice or whatever. If Australian piggeries
are shut down, people will simply eat more imports.

Gert
Thanks.

Dickie- Sorry to cross post. Must wait twelve hours! to repond on other Thread.

Your question- What Do we do now re the Pig One.

suggest we wait for PF to advise.

I agree the Rudd thing needs pronto attention.

There are several areas regarding politics I would like to discuss with you.
The PCJC[ Federal] May have some rules or guidelines on pre election promises.

Could explore Enquiry into the ABC LandLine Pre Election ALP pitch.

Can investigate whether or not Obrien was aware and "what conversations" and meetings took place "with Rudd Before hand".

Make them very uncomfortable.

Disclose a Government completely out of control 'even before' elections. Dishonest.= both.

The main Aim of this petition -to "draw attention" to Rudds broken promises and trick media pitches misleading the public.

Here are a few words from our Lawyer who luckily just dropped by.

[Suggestion and Example Only.]

Petition to Stop Live Animal Exports.

To The Honourable the President and Members of the Senate in Parliament assembled:

In reliance of the Prime Ministers pre-election promises we the undersigned hereby petition the Prime Minister to Ban Live Exports in accordance with ALPs then stated policy.

The Petition of the undersigned protests in the strongest possible terms against the live-export of Australian animals and the ALP broken pre election promises.

The Prime Minister is aware that the ALP re policy promises aired on Land Line ABC regarding the cruel live export trade have been broken by his Government within weeks of the 2007 elections.

During transportation the animals are subjected to inhumane conditions resulting in unacceptably high death rates and suffering. Upon arrival, they suffer extreme cruelty and barbarism prior to and during slaughter - practices that are illegal in Australia.

Your petitioners call upon the Prime Minister members and the Senate to immediately, and without delay, ban the live export of Australian livestock there by honouring the pre election policy promises made by The Prime Ministers chosen represnative and the ALP.

We petition the Prime Minister to honour ALPs re elections policy without delay.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=petitions+starting+.+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=get+up+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

Hi all
PF - thanks for that link. I couldn't find a date, but I do know that the two ships named feature at www.liveexportshame.com as amongst the very worst of the livestock carriers. The "Farid F" (not Farina) is well over 30 years old and falling to bits, and the "Hereford Express" was the "Dealco I". Have a look at the Animals Angels reports for that one at that website, it's a shocker, and more about what goes on at unloading in the Philippines; there was a video there of cattle being unloaded and slaughtered. The "Farid F" was recently re-named "Torrens".
I wonder how many of the pigs survived the journey. Have you any idea at all how often these exports happen? And any more details about long-haul transports within Australia?
PALE - I don't know where Suzanne Cass is but I think she has something to do with www.liveexportshame.com, and is possibly in Tasmania. There may be a group down there through which a contact could be made.
Yabby - you are nothing if not predictable; we are lucky to have you to uphold the fascist perspective.
Animals Australia may be interested in the link too.
With regard to the proper wording of petitions, I don't think that would be accepted, because the parameters are very specific. It could be that there is a guide somewhere at the Parliamentary website. If not, (and I suspect, but don't know for sure) that you have to petition the Senate not the House of Representatives. With the latter, if you are friendly with an elected member, you can see if they will ask a series of questions in the House, and then everything is a matter of public record on Hansard. Robert McClelland (new Attorney General) did so earlier in the year.
Good luck trying to get information out of Kevin Rudd. Kerry O'Brien probably would not break "party ranks" to debate the live export topic now, even though he was shafted.
Tony Burke has so far ignored all correspondence on the issue.
Nicky

Nicky,Everyone Hi

Nicky, Was refering to your post on the 27th and relying on the fact I know Suzzanne Caz.

Nicky Tar, Was he? Was he shafted? - That `is` the$50.00 dollar question.

To my mind he would have gotten the policy from somewhere.?

I spoke to him. He would "hardly committ political suicide" by coming out with what he said on ABC *unless under instructions.*

He [A] believed it- because thats what he was told by the leader or -[B]- understood the publics wishes on the live animal trade to be stopped and really wanted the votes.

*I suspect that it was his "given instructions under PM Rudds leadership."

Kevin Rudd ruled that pre election policy with a iron fist.

Nobody was allowed to do interviews unless first running it by Kevin Rudd.

Bob Brown would be the man to ask. [But later]

The libs will be desperate to discredit ALP and have the `hide` to use this example of lies to the public even if its live exports.

Firstly I would recomded public action standing outside Parliment house etc.

The media are getting bored with all these love and kindness stories.
They are waiting to draw the first blood so lets offer them our sacrifise.
Lets draw it out like does does the millions of Animals on those long journies.

Best to try to get some media attention before raising it in Parliment so its not shaved in the first five minutes.

The ALP and Libs dont agree on much *but have have agreed to keep their heads down eyes and mouths shut on the suffering of millions of Australian Animals in Intenive farming and the unforgivable live animal trade for years.

However the libs will be[ quitley] just as angry as us- But for different reasons.

Thats why McGuaruan was so surprised. [ Its wasnt just a dirty trick on the public- They are a tad annoyed too.

Had the hide to call it dirty politics- Very Funny.

Dickie has suggested we go with the petition.

I agree and let it build up public support first.

"Did Kevin Rudd buy Free Range Ham and Turkey for Christmass? If Not Why Not?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Good grief.

Nicky – not much is said about pig live exports but these guys do a far bit http://www.hyfarm.com.au/hyfarm_-_-about_hyfarm_001.htm

“FEDERAL Agriculture Minister Peter McGauran has called for a uniform approach to regulating
free-range farming.
Mr McGauran said he would bring state agriculture ministers together to develop a uniform and
enforceable approach to the use of the term in labelling.
The move follows a call from egg and pork free-range farmers for strict requirements on
producers labelling their products free range.”

Yes, they were all guilty of using animal welfare to increase their popularity pre election, but now what?

The free range survey is now available in a printable version on the website http://www.pigout.net.au

I will talk to my local member about setting up petitions but in the meantime it is important for us to get an understanding of what people think free range means. This link will give you an idea of how the ACCC see it. It has enraged a lot of people and received a lot of media attention just of late. http://www.freerangepork.com.au/newslettersept07.htm

“As to me, if I was a pig, I'd say that on a nice sunny day,
free range pigs have it far better, but on freezing cold,
rainy nights, I'd rather be in a straw filled shelter,
then on a free range farm”

If you were a pig on my farm yabby, then you would have the best of both worlds. Why would you think a free range farm would not provide shelter?

“we expect Intensive farming replaced by FREE RANGE for All Animals.”

You might. Personally I could not give a rats.

Why?

Well simple. Asserting the same values of ”quality of life” one presumes for a person be applied to a critter is simply stupid.

I am not a cruel person. I deplore the people who gain some form of gratification from watching or participating in animal suffering.

However, I do not believe that keeping a chook in a battery cage when said chook knows no different would particularly diminish the “quality of life” expectations of the chook.

In fact, having seen the way chooks treat other chooks “free range”, I am sure some chooks positively benefit from being caged instead of pecked to death because of their position in the order ("pecking" order that is).

So when you are prepared to demonstrate your commitment to free-range by subsidizing the difference I would have to pay to support a “free-range only “ industry, I might listen but until then, caged eggs and more economic intensive farming methods are fine with me.

PF, sounds like you have lucky pigs on your farm. The pictures
I've seen in the press here of free range farms, showed little
but small tin humpies that looked pretty prone to flooding.

The shelters I've seen on the few pig farms I've visited, used
liberal amounts of 8ft by 4ft straw bales, as they were based
on grain farms, so straw was available in near unlimited amounts.

The sheer thermal capacity of 4 ft thick straw bales is quite
large. On a cold, rainy, miserable night I'd therefore much
rather be in one of those shelters surrounded by copious amounts
of straw, then in a tin humpy. If you have ever been in a hay
shed, even on a cold day, its not half as cold in there as outside.

Pigs kept in those shelters looked pretty happy to me, I certainly
did not look at it as factory farming.

That’s true Yabby, on cold, rainy, miserable nights those housed pigs would be nice and warm. Most free range farmers adjust bedding to suit seasonal conditions and not waste resources on what just looks good.

That thermal capacity that you mentioned, just how hot do you think those housed pigs would be right about now? Bet they would give anything to be outside in the shade of a tree.

And lets not forget that that thermal capacity will only increase as manure and urine is added and starts to compost. Those shed are only cleaned out at the end of each batch (maybe) Image the heat that would be generated! Like you say, toasty in the dead of winter.

We switch to shredded paper in the summer time so we don’t roast our pigs alive.

Keeping pigs indoors with no option to go outside, in conditions that just suit the farmer because he has straw ‘available in near unlimited amounts’ sound like factory farming to me. Yes, maybe its better than pens in sheds but no guarantee that the pigs are as happy as you seem to think they are.

Excerpt:

"You also find antibiotic-resistant bacteria in hospitals, but the tip of the iceberg, in my view, is these poultry sheds because what we've shown is that as soon as the chicks are coming into these sheds they're being colonised with a super bug called Vancomycin-resistant enterococci, and the interesting thing is that whilst the antibiotic that created this super bug is not used anymore, there are a number of other antibiotics being used that are selecting for the maintenance of this strain.

"We need to find out what's going on there because that actually says that these sheds are contaminated with these super bugs.

"It also says that the farmers are probably colonised with these super bugs. It probably also says that the slaughterers and the factories are probably also colonised with this super bug.

"I mean, the problem is, if you look in Europe, in the Netherlands and countries like that where they use this antibiotic, this is the case. If you go out to these communities where these poultry farms are, you find that the people working in the factories, the farmers, normal people in the community are colonised with these bugs, and yet no one has done this study in New Zealand.

Robyn Williams: And Australia?

"Greg Cook: Australia is a bit like New Zealand; no one really wants to do the study. There are a lot of people saying that it's not a problem, but no one has actually done the work.

"I think New Zealand has done a lot more work in this area than Australia. But Australia was like us, they used a lot of this antibiotic, five times the amount that we used.

"So there's no reason to think it won't be any different in Australia. What's interesting in Australia is that Australia has already had outbreaks in their hospitals with this super bug, with this VRE.

"I think there was one in Adelaide Hospital and it cost them $2 million to control this outbreak. We haven't had outbreaks in our hospitals yet but it will happen.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/2001938.htm#

http://birdflubook.com/g.php?id=6

PF, AFAIK they adjust the straw summer and winter, so in summer
they take advantage of the breeze, so things would be similar to
under a tree.

As I've made clear, pigs is not my game, simply my observations.
Thats why I specified if I was a pig, how I would choose.

The thing is, these guys are pig experts, long ago saw the benefits
of shelters and straw and shut their old concrete bunkers down.
Their chemical costs and health problems dropped through the floor,
so it was a win-win all round. They would be smart enough to make
any adjustment to their system which benefits pigs, as happy and
healthy pigs grow faster, which improves food conversion rates.

So I don't see the situation as black and white. Pigs under that
kind of informed management would thrive, whilst pigs under poor
free range management could well suffer in some situations. Not
everyone takes as much care as you do with your pigs.

But in the end if will be a marketing exercise and all about perceptions.
People are prepared to pay for that, so somebody will
take their money.

'You might. Personally I could not give a rats.' (Col Rouge)

Hopefully Col Rouge perused my last post on the abominable farming of battery hens. If so, he may now "give a rats" over this filthy practice and of the world-wide potential for another pandemic to occur if this industry is permitted to continue unabated. After all, he may not "give a rats" about the heinous treatment of other species but I suspect he would be more than anxious to save his own arse!

As Professor Greg Cook has warned, if a pandemic occurs, there is no longer an antibiotic to treat sick humans.

PALE

I have been liaising with a State pollie who has advised that Petitions to Parliament rarely go anywhere. Whilst he is not conversant with the Federal process, he has recommended that with regard to the Rudd/O'Brien issue, the greatest impact would be to have an opposition member ask the "question without notice."

Responses to "questions without notice" are required immediately.

In State parliament, when "questions without notice" are presented there is always a full house (perhaps the only time) - coz it's "Show Time" and the press gallery is usually well represented.

State Political parties are permitted to ask five "questions without notice" daily, therefore the strategy would be to approach the relevant opposing party member, requesting that the Rudd/Burke issue be included during the session. However, the five questions selected daily are generally a decision made by the leader of that party.

I have already written to my local Federal member over live exports and despite my years of assistance to him on polling day, the member chose not to respond. This would of course be due to the graphic evidence I included in my correspondence revealing the member to be a fraud when he publicly stated that:

"If there was any evidence of animal cruelty in the live exports, the Liberal Party would close this industry down immediately." Huh??

Therefore, I would now anticipate a negative response if I were to approach him on this issue.

Suggestions??

Hi Dickie.

Umm I meant get public awareness first - petitions ,media

I have given my advise on the Rudd but will just scribble a few more thoughts.

Even if you get somebody to raise it now- It will be "shaved" in Parliment in twenty seconds and we wont be able to bring it to the floor again.

That would suite them .

Your in WA arn`t you? Certainly wouldnt be trusting `anybody` there. Wouldnt trust anybody bar Bob Brown who would already be aware of course.

Are you suggesting this is raised on the floor of the State Government?

We cant do that. Its got to be Federal Parliment. { Perhaps I miss understood you.

There is `some` truth re the comments on petitions- except live exports.

They serve their purpose but they `alone` wont get the changes.

Have been invaulable. How else do you get it on record.

I am happy to discuss `some things re Rudds broken pre election promises on OLO but encourage you to email to discuss fully.

I will say this much.

WE `alone` will not nail Rudd. We must wait our time.

1 When to pounce.

2 What grounds may be used to call for a open public enquiry PCJC or Royal Commission.

3 How that may just slide in with others to combine with their own purposes.

4 What evidence is required.

5 What type of Statements are neccessay.-

6 From whom.

7 Whats hearsay

9 Whats admisable.

10 What Isnt.

Eg=Why did Kevin Rudd "refuse" to disclose to the Australian Public at the AWB Enquiry that the funds going to Saddamm Hussian were ALSO blood money from Live Animal Exports From Australia?

He was Shadow Minister of Trade- There for it was 'his' reasonsibilty.

Is there a "connection" between his "refusal" to inform the public about AWBs involement and his broken pre election promises and using Kerry Obrian as a patsy.
Why DID Kerry Obrian go on th ABC TV and make false election promises?

Who did he brief before going on ABC? Or did someone brief him?

Hi all
I think it is pointless raising the matter with any State government, because the response historically has been that even if an individual state chose to ban live exports, it would be over-ruled by the Commonwealth using the constitution. Bob Brown, as far as I know, can only raise questions in the Senate, and these questions need to be asked in the House of Representatives.

Andrew Bartlett may be able to provide advice on all this. Nothing can be done in that context anyway until Parliament resumes; all we can do is send individual letters to local members, and/or decsend on their doorsteps, also letters to Rudd, to Tony Burke, and to his opposition number, Nigel Scullion (both he and Burke stated strong support for live exports in the ABC's Rural News not long after the election). Scullion called for the government to state its position, and the next day, Burke did.

It's safe to assume that the major players have been provided with the documentary evidence by Animals Australia. With the assertion that AWB money was somehow tied up with live exports, you would really have to be able to substantiate that. If Kevin Rudd was the Opposition Trade Spokesman, someone in Queensland should be able to chase that up.

I heard that the Tasmanian government was (rightly) concerned about the mortality report that AA got on the last shipment out of there in February 2006, which said that Tasmanian sheep cannot cope with the extremes of equatorial crossings and it would be seeking further advice, however it allows animals to be sent interstate to be shipped out of Portland in Victoria. I'm told that the Minister down there was informed that if the Tasmanian government was allowing this to occur it was breaching its own Animal Welfare Act, and was therefore negligent/in dereliction of its duty. I haven't heard of any similar backdown in any other state though.
Nicky

PS False election promises? Politicians will say anything to get elected. I had thought better of Kerry O'Brien (who incidentally was not up for re-election this time). O'Brien kept shifting his position as the election got closer. It would be interesting to get to the bottom of that though. If he just did as he was told, he shouldn't have lost the portfolio, especially to someone who knows nothing about it (but has been visiting LOTS of farms!)
Nicky

Nicky

Why not attack the survey work PF has started.

We only have until March.

Surveys out in letter box drops and shopping center displays.

Dickie has taken it on down WA in her local area.


No Nicky Its "not safe" to assume Animals Australia have sent evidence to anybody regarding AWB.

They where unaware.

Kevin Rudds office as "Shadow Minister of Trade" also `claimed `they had no idea?

The then Shadow Minister of "Trade" claimed to be unaware of AWB being involved in the Live Trade. Umm

Well Gee Wiz I wonder whom advised Wesfarmers to dump it and mix it all up with the wheat board and the single desk in the middle of 60 minutes?
Any takers- Mr Vaile Downer ? Anybody?

And just to think AWB Peter`s office in QLD in charge of AWB live export division is only a stone throw down the road from Rudds and Andrews.

QLD is the largest exporter of cattle in Australia. Gee not a very well informed Shadow Minister - Or was he?

We contacted Downer and Vail`s office in late 2003 and again in 2004 about this.

AA and Mark Pearson requested documents to be sent them `showing` them the connection which were sent.

We suggested EVERYBODY together down at the AWB enquiry to get the message out to the public.

We alone ended up sending half a dozen strippers to stand out the front of the AWB Enquiry to highlight the connection.


FYI We also sent copies to Andrew Bartlett and asked `him` to raise the issue[ at the time] with the then Shadow Minister of Trade Kevin Rudd.

We asked Andrew why `he and Kevin were so quiet about AWB involvement in Live Animal Exports.?

For that matter Suzzanne why didnt Andrew ever pass it on to AA AL 'before hand.'

Especially given one of the 60 minutes reports came out within days of the AWB enquiry and held large public interest.


Just like to keep all these bits and pieces on record for any future use.

Mornin' all.

My previous post on WA's parliamentary process was simply an example. I am aware that the live trade exports is a Federal matter.

Nicky's suggestions have merit, however:

(1) I shall accept an offer from a State politician for him to ask a "question on notice" on my behalf in the State Parliament. The more publicity the better.

Federal Parliament conducts "Questions Without Notice" at 2pm daily. Does anyone know of a Liberal Pollie who may be seeking a moment of glory by asking Mr Rudd some embarrassing questions during that session in the House of Reps?

(2)......After "questions in parliament", I suggest writing to newspapers in every city and regional centres. Bent politicians generally survive on the silence or naivety of citizens and we should keep this issue alive in the press to keep the public better informed.

(3)......Futuristic: I would like to see a well publicised, National Public Forum conducted in a major city incorporating all animal welfare groups and concerned citizens - perhaps run over the course of a long weekend? Will require an extensive advertising programme, contacting sponsors etc and distribution of flyers.

I would like to recommend that:

a): Consider who to approach to chair the meeting - Lynn White perhaps?

b): Inform the media that we intend to ask Mr Rudd to open the Forum.

c): Send the official invitation to Mr Rudd requesting same.

d): Should Mr Rudd have "other commitments" we will publicly express our regrets and ask if he may be represented by his Minister

e): At completion of Forum, we will have "Question Time" where attendees' questions will be forwarded onto Mr Rudd for his comments unless we have managed to padlock the door to prevent his escape of course!

Having raised all these issues, I must now advise that my current personal commitments (moving, working, etc) will extend over the next couple of months so my contribution to the crusade, during that period, will be keyboard only.

Dickie

"Excellent" Pale will go along with actually doing `something`.
If you want to involve Lyn AA wont work with us- We are considered the black sheep remember. So we will leave it to Nicky and yourself to set up.

Dickie Said
Bent politicians generally survive on the silence or naivety of citizens.

Pale replies
Yes and also don’t forget that many newspapers and other media outlets are either owned or controlled by the Live Export interests and Industries

Even if its just fear of loosing their advertising contracts in regional areas it’s a problem and we need to send hundreds of letters if not thousands so they cant ignore it.

Before we do it we should write to the broad casting association and to all talk back radio shows warning them that miss information given out by talk back hosts will result in consequences.
Mostly they tell the public that the poor starving Muslims require Animals alive for religious purposes which is an insulting lie.
We should send a copy of this media Release from Muslim Leaders along with letters.
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Dickie said
Does anyone know of a Liberal Polly who may be seeking a moment of glory by asking Mr. Rudd some embarrassing questions during that session in the House of Reps?
Pale replies.
Well Considering Rudd is from QLD it would have the most coverage here I suppose.
Yes we think we can get somebody to do that.

Lyn White is a “great choice” however I would like to see someone like Tom Hannan the X Federal Leader of the AMIEU with her.

Just to give it some balance and ensure the media cant cast everybody off as an extreme veggie as they rely always rely on to discard main stream publics concerns as well.
Will leave to yourself and Nicky to approach Lyn White.
We will do our bit as posted above.
Would also like to assist PF survey

Personal Commitments here, -funeral after death Christmas Eve and then away from around January ten to twenty as a result.
Will do our very best.
Thanks Dickie

Dickie “Hopefully Col Rouge perused my last post on the abominable farming of battery hens.”

No dickie, I find the sort of drivel you peddle instantly ignorable.

My observation of the fringe loons who promote this sort of “animal activist" rubbish to be, generally, comfortably situated small minds who lack enough challenges to fill their day.

The world would be a better place if they focused their efforts in resolving how to reduce the demand for say battery eggs (viz smaller human population) rather than preaching to us “heretics” (who also have voting rights) or at least make some personal contribution to reducing world human population numbers by topping themselves.

Dickie “Hopefully Col Rouge perused my last post on the abominable farming of battery hens.”

"No dickie, I find the sort of drivel you peddle instantly ignorable."
(Col Rouge)

"Instantly ignorable?" I'm delighted to learn Col Rouge that you are sufficiently psychic to form an opinion of a post without actually reading it.

Unfortunately for you, the "sort of drivel" that you claim I peddle is not my "drivel" at all.

The information I posted was extracted from the findings by:

Professor Gregory Cook (Microbiologist)
University of Otago

and

Dr Gregor
Director of Public Health and Animal Agriculture
Humane Society of US
Graduate of Cornell University School of Agriculture
And: The Tufts University School of Medicine

"My observation of the fringe loons who promote this sort of “animal activist" rubbish to be, generally, comfortably situated small minds who lack enough challenges to fill their day."

Well that's odd Col Rouge. I don't imagine the eminent authors would be impressed unless of course you are more qualified than they?

"Challenges" eh? I notice that you have averaged more time banging the gums on OLO than I. Perhaps it is you who "lacks enough challenges to fill their day?"

And "fringe loons?" Dear me, Col Rouge. What does that mean? It's the rock apes that concern me the most!

You've gotta wonder how Col Rouge forms his/her opinions if he doesn't read the "drivel", propounded by world-leading scientists, but beyond that, and saying "if you have nothing meaningful (i.e worth reading) to contribute, go and annoy another thread" I shall dispense with those neanderthal remarks.

I'm still rather mystified by the AWB/live exports connection. I'm afraid. I don't see a clear link but that's not to say there isn't one. Wesfarmers no doubt has shares or interests in all sorts of entities including live export companies.

I meant, when I said AA would have forwarded material to the major players, its film footage and other evidence of the cruelty in the Middle East, not anything to do with AWB. Even if there IS a link, I suspect it may be too late to exploit it now.

Dickie, a "friendly Liberal politician" is a bit hard to find in my part of NSW, I'm afraid. It really is worth exploiting the job losses in the meat processing sector (40,000, with 150 plants shut down, according to the AMIEU) to bright, new, enthusiastic Labor politicians though. Graeme Haynes in WA is right up on all that.

I have circulated PF's survey as far as I'm able to do. I'm a little concerned that I may not have completed it as well as I should, because I made it clear that I knew exactly what free-range pig farming was, when perhaps I should have appeared more confused in a demand for "truth in labelling". PF, I'm open to advice on that one. And is there any more you can tell me about long-haul transport of pigs in Australia?

Thanks for the link, too - I sent them an enquiry under my business name so it will be interesting to see if they respond.
Nicky

Nicky

Wesfarmers headed for hills ..... AWB.[ later].

Re survey- Point is customers are entitled to be “fully” informed on” labels” and its TOO confusing Now.

Col Rouge said
World would be a better if they focused efforts in resolving how to reduce the demand (viz smaller human population)

Pale

Interesting comment.

It’s certainly over populated which doesn’t help global warming. How do you get Religious leaders to listen?
Col Rouge,
My observation of the fringe loons who promote this sort of “animal activist" rubbish to be, generally, comfortably situated small minds who lack enough challenges to fill their day.

Pale

That’s not the case here pale has continues because of the CEO of RSPCA QLD plus a couple of us mortgaged our homes and sold land.

I have always found rather the opposite in life actually. It’s usually the poorest of people who give the ost.
RSPCA and other Animal Welfare groups need all the help they can get. So do the good farmers.
They are the forgotten ones.

Col
or at least make some personal contribution to reducing world human population numbers by topping themselves.

Pale
While I am sure those comments were said as an expression it really wasn’t in the best of taste.
Very upsetting words to read if someone lost a loved one by suicide especially Christmas.

Col
So when you are prepared to demonstrate your commitment to free-range by subsidizing the difference I would have to pay to support a “free-range only “industry, I might listen but until then, economic intensive farming methods are fine with me.

Pale

Ah! There is the Answer Thank You!
Public are’ already ‘subsidizing. If it were fairly handed out then your wish would be granted. So know you understand at last what all these Loones fight for.
Better still -disease free products -not pumped with every drug -creating uncontrollable virus like bird flue Sars etc.
Surely you don’t think it’s fair that small free range farmers practicing humane methods are forced out?.

Surveys showed 90% would be happy to pay slightly more to ensure humane healthy conditions.

If you want to be taken seriously in debating animal welfare - "Papa don't preach!" Don't use capital letters in sentences that jump off the page. A valid, logical, argument is far more moving than what comes across as hysteria. I realize the issues are close to your hearts, but take a tip - "Don't shout!" Otherswise you deafen people, and they just won't hear what you've got to say.

Oops Foxy - you've crossed a line there. Be prepared for any amount of personal invective from the PALEIF collective for daring to suggest that their comments here aren't really likely to attract support for their cause.

I think that the anti-live export crew would do well to pay attention to the more reasonable perspective articulated by Nicky, and even the rational (but waspishly expressed, as ever) view of Col Rouge.

"Papa don't preach!" Don't use capital letters in sentences that jump off the page."

Thank you for those words of wisdom Foxy.

Atilla would be so proud of you!

Now be a good girl and direct me to the "capital letters in sentences" to which you refer please. My old eyes must be ready for some shut eye.

And can't we just bang on too, despite the frauds hijacking threads which are far too complex for their comprehension.

But you Foxy I believe should receive the award of the decade on OLO. Congratulations - well done!

Papa certainly taught you how to preach eh?

345 posts in just 2 months. Wow some record that! 172 posts in one month - forty three posts a week. Incredible! We can barely make that in a month though I do believe quality's better than quantity, wouldn't you agree?

And I certainly trust you do have a home to go to.

You must be exhausted and we apologise for keeping you up Foxy. Now off you go girlie.

And good night to you too C J Morgan. I am delighted to see that you are taking Mummy's advice when she instructed you to:

"Never go to bed angry. Stay up and plot your revenge."

Feeling better now bubsie?

Hi all
May I PLEASE say at this point that it would be so nice if this thread remained constructive, and without people being rude to one another? I am not trying to patronize anyone, but it just seems sad that so many clearly intelligent, well-intentioned people eventually feel driven to respond in kind to people we know to be trouble makers. Treat those people with the contempt they deserve by ignoring their input and they will soon get bored and go away and try to sabotage other threads. Let's stay positive here!
Good night all,
Nicky

HelloEveryone

Dickie , Nickie You may find this link of interest.

http://www.infinitybrokerage.com/carter/seminar.aspx

http://www.cme.com/html.wrap/wrappedpages/end_of_day/daily_settlement_prices/lc.html?h=1

The name of the company that Elders operate their live trade through is Infinity Futures. You may like to pass that onto Lyn as well please.


http://www.cme.com/cme/edu/events/forms/live_trading_cme_reg.html

Its of course a nice little family business in the USA. Note the great care not to mention live exports and - only members able to

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=futures+company+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Much of it you have to be a Mission member to enter. Umm

Nicky ,
Fyi
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2006/s1575792.htm

I am not sure I can explain all about AWB involvement in space given- Or that I want to here.

Yes I did misunderstand you regarding the evidence sent.
I thought you meant AWB.
I do apologize.

The links below are bits that may interest you both when you have time.
AWB was closed due to lack of funding- Cough Cough.
When questioned -these were the following remarks.
John Howards office- no idea who is in charge of the Funding for AWB Enquiry.
Downer- nothing to do with his office.
Vaile- No comment try Phillip Rudocks office.
Phillip Rudocks Office- Everybody is in meetings we will call you back.
The next day- Sorry they are still in meetings.
The next Sorry nobody can answer that question.

http://www.djacobson.com/external_insights/decision_makers_toolkit/index.html
http://blogs.smh.com.au/thecontrarian/archives/2006/04/howard_is_facin.html
AWB LEGAL COSTS
Pressure from WAFarmers through the Grains Council of Australia (GCA) has forced AWB Limited
to bear all the legal costs arising from the Cole enquiry.
Close to $30 million.

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18744477-

28737,00.html

Foxy -addressing pale?
Morgan Nicky has always articulated her posts. Same as Dickie.
Not so with me I am afraid- So if you have little understanding of the subject you probably wont follow my posts.
I am basically from farming background with 20 years Investigations.
Many hands hearts heads and skills are required and its good to know all are prepaired to give their time to insist on free range and re opening of abattoirs .
We each offer something and many hearts and hands are required.

As they say- A few good men. pale members do you no harm.
Good night All

Thanks to all that have filled out the survey and passed it on. Thanks also for all the offers of assistance.

I am not in control of this but did talk to the association committee over the weekend. They have a strategy in place and would want to stick with it. It revolves around a completely different approached to the current tactics used by animal welfare groups against intensive farming – one coming from within their own ranks (of the industry) that cannot be written off as extremists. No offense is meant by that, I am sure you understand were I am coming from.

They are not ready to take this to tv. The pressing issue at the moment is to determine just what people think free range is and use that information to press for a national standard for the production of free range pork and labelling laws that truthfully reflect the production system used. At this point it is an exercise in collection of information so the association can tackle this matter well armed.

So, for the time being, we need as many surveys collected as possible. Any imaginative ways of spreading the word would be appreciated.

Nicky – the industry does not make any mention of live export of pigs. You could approach Australian Pork Limited but they will give you the run around. As you can imagine, linking intensive farming with live exports is probably the last thing they need.

Hello dickie

Nice little spleen vent you had there.

Feeling over it now? Had a lay down and little sleep in the meant time?

When you trawl out the opinions of supposed eminent academics, many of whom spend a good part of their time sucking grants out from the public purse, you are going to get the opinion they are expected to give (academia has more whores than Kings Cross or St Kilda on a wet Saturday, except they specialise in suck, rather than blow, jobs).

As I said, “Asserting the same values of ”quality of life” one presumes for a person be applied to a critter is simply stupid.”

In other words, the chook does not possess the “cognitive” skill to care, so why should a load of higher primates “care” on behalf ot the chook unless they are lacking in things to care about.

If you were battling to find a job, maintain a family or dealing with some debilitating disease, you would not have time to bother with the living conditions of fowl.

You are free to pander chooks all you want but do not expect to be free to apply your dogma of the asinine to me or expect to force me to comply with the deluded and extremist ravings of the animal activists loons.

I recall a lot of people who had jobs in furriers who became unemployed because of the illegal and destructive antics of animal extremists.

Nicky,

“but it just seems sad that so many clearly intelligent, well-intentioned people eventually feel driven to respond in kind to people we know to be trouble makers.”

I guess you label me a “trouble maker”.

Well, get used to me. Labeling and ignoring your detractors will not make us disappear.
It is only more likely to seed ideas like infiltrating and sabotaging your cause from the inside, which would not be hard to do.

PF.

“ Perfect.”

Will distribute survey to as many as possible.

Hadn`t intention of mentioning pale at shopping centers or mail outs for same reason.

considering -close as a animal welfare organization as well to distance ourselves.

Respectfully suggest to others adopt like wise approach if assisting to distribute.

Nicky
Now there is a Christmas gift for you from PF-=. linking intensive farming with live exports ‘is probably the last thing they need’.[smile]

If you want data why not join some of the live export trade pages such as above.
Plenty if you hunt around. That one is a bit expensive- over two and a half grand but there are cheaper ones. Better still perhaps attend one of their seminars.
Don’t let them catch you out because as you can imagine their not very nice people. No just kidding. Others already go.
Happy new year Nicky, PF Dickie Yabby and to all posters.

Dickie Nicky
I will get the petition Re Rudd broken pre election promise done asap. Then put it up here so you can get it out to as many as possible. Will put it up on as many sights as possible.
To be perfectly honest as you are both not with any groups I strongly recomend you retain that position. Also Dickie your other suggestion of the forum inderpendant.
There is no reason Lyn coud not be a valued guest and poster .
We realy need for the Government to see the publics interest and they will fob us off as extremists if they are give any oportunity what so ever to do so.
Anyway I will leave it with yourselves and wait until I hear back re speaking to the correct Pollie.
Shall I.? Would you like me to contact Tom?
We will just leave it with you both other than doing the petition and wait for requests from you.

Happy new year Nicky, PF Dickie Yabby and to all posters.

Dear Dickie,

And I thought you were such a fair-minded person with a cause you cared so passionately about... my goodness, where did all that venom come from directed at me? I apologise to you - but I meant well.
I did not mean it as a personal criticism - merely to point out to you guys - what I had observed... and being critical of how many posts I put in - now that's low. This forum is what keeps me going at present because of my health problems at the moment. I was diagnosed with cancer last year - and I have some really rotten days.
This forum keeps me occupied.

Anyway, you've disappointed me. I may not know much, but I can tell the difference between chicken poop and chicken salad!

Gday foxy, please understand I am not crawling to you am a bit rough around the edges those who know me value my honesty even when disagreeing with me.
You truly are a great contributor to this forum.
Not because of your fight against cancer but your heart.
You must not forget that, we have lost fine posters here this very year who like you fought to remain in touch ,death had nothing to do with it the one I think of now was a great person, just like your are.
I post far too often in caps, I shout far too often.
It is always wrong but I do it.
I broke a promise of great value to myself, never to post in pale threads or invite comment from that group to remind you you are important to most of us.
Let 2008 be your best year post away your threads are great

Pale

I cannot respond to all your questions at present and proper planning and considerations will take much longer.

In addition, parliaments will not sit until February - March so no panic for the moment.

I shall attend to simple matters which is all I can get my head around for the time-being and will continue to email all on the Free-range Pig issue.

There are several issues which I don't believe should be raised on OLO, therefore we will need to speak direct in the near future.

And the ethics-free posters who invade this thread, promoting and endorsing animal cruelty, should not be privy to the methods we intend to implement for the humane treatment of other species.

Happy New Year to all compassionate friends and strangers and may the goodness and kindness of humanity be extended to the defenceless.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:4v6E1y7E5gIJ:www.myspace.com/musicunitedforanimals+peace+kindness+animals+new+year&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=au&lr=lang_e

Dear Belly,

Once again you've cheered me up. Thank you. As I've said before - you're heart is as big as all outdoors - and as for being "rough around the edges," well, diamonds are "rough" - but look at how they're valued. And you, believe me, I value even more.

I only wish that I could get through to the people at PALE - because I think their cause is an excellent one, and as I said, I did not mean them any harm.

I also think that they need all the support they can get - and a little change in their attitudes might work wonders for them. They need to take off their blinkers, and see that not everyone is against them afterall. But insulting people doesn't help their cause. From now on I must admit I'll really think twice before I get involved in any of their threads...

Hi all
Thank you all so much - how much nicer everyone has been (except one exception whom I shall ignore) since my last post. Foxy, I am so sorry to hear of your troubles, and I hope 2008 is bright and hopeful for you. Please do not abandon us. If you have some philosphical differences with PALE, perhaps we can address those here so that you do not feel alientated. It IS a worthy cause that PALE is fighting and perhaps we should remember the cause/s more than the personalities if they are the issue. It is about the emotion and passion people feel about gross animal abuse, and no-one is able to put that into better perspective than PF.

PF, thank you again for your continued contributions, and I will be guided by you as far as strategies go. Dickie, you always present reasoned arguments supported by facts and research, so thank you too.

If one were to consider how easily researchers can be bought, we need look no further than Hassall and Associates and its two reports on the contribution of the live export trade to the national economy. The 2000 report claimed the industry supported 9,000 jobs. At the time of writing, Peter Frawley was the former Chair of LiveCorp and a Director of Hassall and Associates. The figure of 9,000 jobs was easily discounted by independent experts, who stated that the reality was closer to 3,000.

Now H&A has put out a new report extrapolating the 9,000 figure to 13,000, and included are doctors, dentists, hospitality, government and port authorities employees, and others whose jobs would continue to exist without exporting live animals. This was also apparent in the first report. Go figure. I got the reports from MLA's website. Also, extensive research on caged hens cannot all be erroneous. I have hens from a battery farm who attest to that.

Happy New Year, everyone. Let's make this the year that makes a difference.

Nicky

“In other words, the chook does not possess the “cognitive” skill to care”

Most of this conversation has been about pigs. Did you know that a pig has the cognitive ability of at least a 3 year old child? Maybe you can look at chooks crammed in a cage and think, well they know no different so what does it matter?
I spend a lot of my day with pigs (the four legged variety) and the intelligence of these animals still amazes me even now. They have the most incredible range of vocalisations that once you spend time around them, you learn to understand quite well. I do actually use some of those sounds myself to get them to do what I want. (they tell me my accent is not that great, but they get the gist)

Each voice is unique too. Outdoor sows synchronize feeding time, in order to ensure that piglets from other litters do not steal the milk of others. Can you imagine the site and sounds of a paddock of sows singing to their young while masses of little piglets scrabble across the field in the direction of their mother’s voice squealing in answer all the way.

I rely on the pigs intelligence to train them to fit in with our management system. I have changed things many times as we streamline our operation, and at most it takes 2 days (or 2 times) for them to learn something new.

Pigs also have very unqiue personalities. Some you cant help but be taken in by, and they damn well know it! We have many visitors here and there is one particular sow that is garanteed to get a special treat from most. She uses her soft voice and expressive eyes to suck them in every time. Their eyes are just like human eyes you know.

cont ...

Intensive pig farming probably disturbs me more than most because I have such a first hand knowledge and understanding of pig behaviour. How anyone can justify those conditions by saying they are in the best interest of the animal is beyond me. Those who just don’t care are defective humans in my book.

You can lump me into the ‘loonie animal welfare’ group if you like. If a loonie is someone that has respect for living creatures then I am proud to were that badge.

I am no soft touch though, I run a commercial operation and send pigs off for slaughter every week. I know that they lived a very happy and quite natural life though and that doesn’t just make me all warm and fuzzy inside, it helps the bank balance because a happy animal produces better, is of much higher quality and flavour and the meat from these animals is so much more wholesome than that produces in factory farms aided by the over use of all sorts of drugs.

Pigs are more intelligent than dogs. I see people on another thread raging about how dog owners should be licensed because of they way they treat their animals. If you think of a pig as a creature that is more intelligent than your own toddler, is it still ok to treat them so appallingly?

Foxy

My "venom" was directed at you as a result of your unprovoked attack on the author of this thread and other like-minded posters.

I do not dabble in political correctness, however, I hope that I engage in frankness and honesty.

I sincerely regret that you have succumbed to cancer. This is also an area which holds my interest.

You see Foxy, I am confident there is a link between the intensive farming of animals and the prolific emergence of cancers in humans and animals.

I've been a member of a government appointed committee investigating industrial chemicals and pollution, the complex details can be debated in another thread.

I have conducted many years of intensive research into the 20th century use of chemicals, industrial pollution and the subsequent health impacts.

I assure you that the officially documented evidence is concerning, more particularly the cover-ups by governments and the industrial barons who wish only to protect their vested interests.

This is the philosophy for those who believe in the "free market."

Those opposed to the humane treatment of factory farmed animals often vehemently attack the people who expose the unethical practices of those who pollute at the "big end of town" where they continue to use communities and animals as cannon fodder.

I can assure you Foxy that the food chain on which we depend for survival is now seriously contaminated, not only from atmospheric industrial depositions of lethal chemicals but from the bio-accumulative concentrations of agricultural chemicals.

The deliberate, prolific use of chemicals into our food chain must cease.

Any progress we can make towards improving the life of farmed animals will see a mitigation in the serious health problems afflicting humans and their eco-systems.

May the blessings of good health be yours for the New Year and beyond.

"The earth does not belong to man; Man belongs to the earth.
This we know.
Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth.
Man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.

Ah! didnt have the heart to post over PF words.



PF- " Perfect'

Nicky

Stop on.

Yes lets be guided by PF.

Nicky said
Now H&A has put out a new report.

Pale replies-
They also have a “slight credibility problem” according to AWB witness and according to the ALP care taker of ALP Federal Agriculture Minister.


Dickie- No pressure. When you are ready. Under PF guidelines re Labels- and we will talk about Parliament and media- When it’s convenient for you...
Thanks. I agree- We shouldn’t disclose all on OLO..


To Foxy Belly, Foxy C,
Foxy has it ever occurred to you that Dickie is onto your health Problems? All of them?

A few words from the Foxy?
"Yabby you may well be right but after a life time of activism let me assure you it Carry's no weight".
Pale-
"Good" then we hope to have no strikes of busses, planes, trains, nurses etc in the next three years!
. Is that A promise? You really must learn to keep Shy off the key board. He’s a naughty puppy who tells pokies. Just as well he doesn’t wear a shirt! and we are fond of Pokies ah.
Big Kisses and hugs- [for Sky Of course.] BTW Green is the flavor of shirt color for 2008.
. Now be good and read some of the links about intensive cruelty PF and Others put up. There’s a good boy.

Strippers Union
strippersunion.ca, The official site of Strippers Union.
www.strippersunion.ca/ - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

Crikey!Does this mean we get a discount at the next AWB sitting?
Ok guys the old bushy is off for a Bundy.
But you knew that didn’t you Yabb`s. What the matter KS got your tongue?

To Last words from Dickie and thanks from the animals for her heart mind and spirit for 2008=

Happy New Year to all compassionate friends and strangers and May the goodness and kindness of humanity be extended to the defenseless.

Dickie, Nicky PF we salute you.

PALE in Conjunction with RSPCA QLD thanks you for your tireless efforts

Dear Nicky, Dickie, and PALE...

Firstly to you Nicky - Thanks for your kind words. They helped and were very much appreciated.

To you Dickie - I'm so happy that you explained what was going on with you because I've liked you from your very first post concerning animals.

And to all of you at PALE- please keep up your good work.(I know you will!)
You're hearts are in the right place, and I'm going to keep my big mouth shut from now on. You guys know what you're doing - you don't need advice from some amateur (me) - who was having a 'bad day.'
Apologies to all - especially you Dickie!

May the New Year be a Good One!

Foxy, may you be posting with us for a very long time. This has become easily the best thread with which I have been involved, with really positive contributions from people who are clearly special people. The truly sad thing about cancer is that it doesn't help knowing how you might have got it once you have. My partner has recovered from cancer, thankfully, many years ago.

But we can, hopefully, use the information we have found to link that and other diseases to some of the unspeakable things humans do, particularly to the voiceless and defenceless. Thank you, Dickie.

PF, someone who talks about her animals as you do cannot be so hard-headed. The difficult part for me would be that I wouldn't be able to send them off to markets, so it's just as well I'm not in that line of business or I would go very hungry. You have obviously gone to a tremendous amount of trouble and research to ensure that your animals have happy lives as far as is practicable.

PALE, obviously you too put tremendous energy and passion into what you do; congratulations for that. Every bit of exposure of the live export trade gets it out there, and the more it's out there the more uncomfortable politicians are going to be.

All the very, very best for the New Year, everyone.

Nicky

Nicky-

Coming from you, that’s a compliment, Thanks.

However I known your wrong about one thing ‘only’ on this thread.

Nicky said PF

The difficult part for me would be that I wouldn't be able to send them off to markets,

Pale replies.

Yes you could Nicky.

Your compassion lies well past considering your own feelings.

You were born! to help Animals like Dickie.

You like PF would oversee the” best” Free Range Farms and ensure plants locally”.

Why? Do I say this?

Because, when push came to shove, and `you` were standing on the docks, with only the choices being the green door or the red door to send your animals through –

With the Green Door being Animals being raised on PF type farms and slaughtered locally---

Or the Red door being Animals raised in intensive farms and sent on the death ships to their slow barbaric treatment –

I ‘know’ you would not only send` yours` through the green door but you would be using every tactic to bid against the AWB and Elders Red Door live stock agents to take as many out of their grubby dirty hands and redirect them back through the green door.
And you would do a darn good job of it too!


To Foxy Belly, Foxy C,
Smile- Thanks.
Funny As! I think you may have got away with that one or we have some extraordinary good will for the New Year. Let’s hope it’s the latter!
No we don’t help all the answers. We need your help too.

Juila is going to cop heaps in the next year and we need to put up some sensible alternatives and policies which I hope she will cling to and it would be a win win all round.

Hi All



Question has to be answered . - Did Mr. Rudd buy Free Range Ham and Turkey for Christmas. ?

I was wondering if any member or members of the public that read this forum would like to put their hand up to write to Mr. Rudd.

We require an Answer.

I would do it myself but they call every group of fair minded people extremist veggies these days.

It’s really quite the "in thing to do" and popular around Parliament house. Has been for several years but it still seem to be holding its own. Or is that holding their own. Umm perhaps somebody else’s? - Elders AWB - who knows? Now wasn’t it Elders and Optus the Government gave one billion dollars to last year? Hang on isn’t that in direct opposition to Telstra.
Oh dear I think I better stick to simple things such as cruelty to Animals it’s all a bit Chinese to me.

So if there is more than one of you ladies and gentleman in your house hold concerned about cruelty to Animals do not tell the Government. [Or you will be branded as extremists]

Don’t take it personally - its only politics-

So if you Mr. Rudd receive many letters [all from single people of course! with single thoughts and single views then you can be sure you are getting the real feelings of the Australian People.

Which reminds me. What were the phone calls from your then advisor Pr Election Kerry O’Brien’s Advisor for? Promises of surprises.
No I am not surprised.

You really should get Bernie to run the co joint proposal by you and you should give it a lot of thought. Elders could be sponsors and hosts for selected Migrants for this country to be trained in Free Range Farms and plants along with our regional and aboriginal people.
The Libs are interested.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if they stamped back in power three years down the track with a lot of help from the many growing Animal welfare organization.

"Almost" make me sick too- but that’s politics.

Suddenly this thread that was so important to help the pigs is of no interest.
May I simply say as the RSPCA QLD CEO said to me six years ago.
Until everybody worls together nothing will change.
I am sick to death of the rather obtuse personalites of so called animal welfare people.
What happend to helping the pigs?
All that talk?
When push comes to shove nobody wants to do anything bar blow their own whistle.
Whats the point in us waisting our time.
Ok pale have done the petition for the broken election promises.

We are advertsing for some casuals to do shopping centers with the survey for free range pork labels.
We arelooking to do the letter box drops.
We are asking is their ANYBODY prepaired to contact farmers in their states to meet with Muslims so we can actually arrange for more plants to be opended to stop live animal trade.
I am begining to think we ought to just get on with our lives like everybody else.
Forget Animals

BTW Doesnt anybody care if Kevin had Free Range Anymore?

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=meet_your_meat&Player=flv
Posted by dickie, Wednesday, 26 December 2007 1:29:05 PM
Enjoy!
Suzanne Cass

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 27 December 2007 11:56:10 PM

PALE - I don't know where Suzanne Cass is but I think she has something to do with www.liveexportshame.com, and is possibly in Tasmania. There may be a group down there through which a contact could be made.

pale says
Well I think the above says it all.

What I think both this thread and the other thread does show is there is a team effort to stop threads pale opens and its clear it is done in a united effort.

We joined OLO some time ago to let the public know about many issues of Animal Welfare.

Sure enough the word passed around and in came the faithfuls.

That aside I think- or at least i hope you have gained some information you would not have gained otherwise.
We by `no means` have all the answers.

We only know that until we started about live exports quite a few years ago now nothing was happening and according to Glenyse whom I personally spoke with. She said it was too political.

So we opended pale.

If nothing else I hope we have achieved that much because let me tell you girls they were not going to take this on according to Glensye.
Despite also the bagging we get we have had most of our ideas carried out by them.

"This is of course all good as far as we are concerned".

So you have passed on the question time in Parliment.
The Petition re Rudds pre Election promises.


FYI There have been many Enquires- All called for a ban on animal exports.

You say you are working to replace live with chillied- Yet you refuse to help that very work being done?

Please explain what your real agenda ?