Ha! Palimpsest, I think that your approach to Christianity is pretty close to my own - except that I think you privilege Christianity's version of religious truth over those of other religions more than I do.

I only object to religious expression when it seeks to silence more rational approaches to life - as we see very often in this forum - or when it is expressed more violently, e.g. Islamist suicide bombers or Christian fundy attacks on abortion clinics. Perhaps more saliently, I oppose the incorporation of religious ideas into State policies and practices.

Otherwise, I'm hardly a militant atheist. Hell, I was Santa Claus at my local pub a week ago :)

So... a very happy Christ-mass to all of you. Even David who seems to be in the market for the real thing.

Dear Foxy, *suggestion* :) why not be 'catholic' as opposed to 'A' Catholic? Its more Biblical. 'A' Catholic would suggest you are a member of the Church of 'Rome'.. i.e.. a 'Roman' Catholic,-whereas "Catholic"in attitude means all who know Christ as Lord and Savior are part of the Church Catholic, but they may reside in any of various denominations.

David.. your little 'poor us' direction reminded me a little of my new laptop and its included Chess game. I played it over and over and it was allll downhill.. me losing. Each time I lost it said "This will be counted in your statistics as a LOSS"...then.. wonder of wonders I BEAT it... aaah victory was sweet.. so sweet.. then the sucker said "DRAW" ! How the heck does 'checkmate'= 'draw' ?

The moral of the story of course.... not facing reality. (both you and my Chess game.) I rarely find atheists 'vilified'.. pehaps you can share a specific example?

Foxy,

I also was baptised into the Catholic tradition. (From Word Web – Catholic - A member of a Catholic church) I found I wasn’t following my conscience, but one imposed on me without my permission, when I was too young to do anything about it. I discovered a lot of what I was indoctrinated with was just plain wrong. (Read my second post for some of what was wrong) But, Foxy, whatever gets you through the night, as is said.

palimpsest,

“although I still, in my own life cannot distinguish between an 'innate quality' and my thoughts.”

Therein lays the problem with indoctrination. The blurring of indoctrinated messages and our innate nature makes it difficult to discern the difference. It is so powerful a force that even seeing it at work in other cultures does not necessarily convince one it has also happened to them.

BOAZ_David

“I rarely find atheists 'vilified'.. pehaps you can share a specific example?”

The Pope condemned Atheism recently. Following in his footsteps, George Pell was widely reported in many newspapers stating that Atheism was more than just a bad idea. To suggest that others did not take the lead from these two prominent persons would be remarkably naive. And I haven’t mentioned how the fundamentalist side of Christianity views Atheism.

As a footnote, I have been ‘denounced from the pulpit’ in the area I live. I don’t frequent many churches, but was informed by a Testra employee working on a phone problem. He thought it was terrible, whereas I took it as par for the course.

David

Hi David,
I note with considerable interest your disclosure of a Roman Catholic background.
With that, I find it easier to comprehend the intensity of your dislike for organized religion, which sadly, you seem to have expanded to include 'all' religion or expressions of it.. particularly Christianity it would appear.

Instead of becoming a Luther, and as a warrior seeking to reform the errors you detected, you became a warrior against God. This seems quite unreasonable. Is it possible that your bad experience in the Catholic Church has marred your ability to objectively interpret the evidence for Christ? Not to mention the many great traditions of the Church prior to the Roman version being corrupted by the legal acceptance of the Church after Constantine, and the subsequent lapsing into 'Power' based operation, and infallible Popes.

If only we could extricate you from your past, and with an emptied mind, expose you to the glories of the True Christ, Messiah.
I read to my family from Isaiah 9.6 over Christmas, then from John 20:31
I pray you will find the significance of those truths for yourself.

CJ.. I cannot end the year without a bit of a poke at you :)*poke*
Err..its not about 'silencing' opposing views, but a) asserting the rationality of faith in Christ(1 Cor 15:12-19) b) 'exposing' them for either their irrationalality and/or their underlying self/carnal interest.(Surah 33:50/51)

BOAZ-David,

My history of being in the Catholic Church only influences me accepting, they, and the rest of the 20,000 religions have no evidence for their claims. I hold no hatred against the RC’s or any other religion. I am certainly not a “warrior against God”. One cannot be a warrior against an invisible nothing. In the same vein, I am not a warrior against fairies.

It appears your indoctrination is complete, as you will not look past your own religious ideas to actually try and understand what I am saying. This is nothing to be proud or ashamed of; it is just that nature and nurture are too difficult for some people to overcome. That is why Richard Dawkins’ book, The God Delusion classifies religious indoctrination as mental child abuse. The AFA and many social commentators agree with that sentiment.

Surely, you are opposed to the indoctrination of children with any religion or ideology. And before you parrot the standard response, Atheism requests only that children be given a well rounded education regarding the many religions with the emphasis that none is evidenced. Particular scripture is only evidence to the already indoctrinated.

Atheism does not have any indoctrinatory agenda. As with most educators, Atheism expects that children be presented with factual information, and not myth dressed up as being true, accompanied by threats and promises because of disbelief or belief.

David, I think it is about time your told us your story. What was the predominate religion of your country of birth? What was the religion of your parents? What religion would you be if you were born into an Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu or other culture? What is your present religion? i.e what denomination and are you fundamentalist, young earth creationist, old earth creationist (You see, there are a lot of them all stating they are right) What is the evidence for its correctness in your case? (That is, evidence all will accept)

Now remember the 9th Commandment is not a suggestion: KJV – 16 – “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”

David

David (if that's your real Christian name)(no pun intended) I could possibly imagine where you're coming from, very much like my own I'd say!Atheism is a belief, contrary to your opening statement, but not a religion.Anybody thinking that atheists have not educated themselves about what religions have to offer and did/not did for their followers or to their enemies must be living in a tunnel hoping for the bright light not to be an oncoming train.I've always thought that holy books written by humans were a directive for lonely and mentally displaced people. Just to get them out of the mental sh.t so to speak, like a good psycho book. Maybe I should not mention this on this forum but their is strong evidence that psychiatry is an clinically unproven theory.What the holy books and it's derivatives were trying to do was probably a forerunner to the (mis)treatment so many millions have had to endure.May any healthy internal force stay with you all during future trying times.