It must be wonderful to see the world in such simple, black and white, good and evil, right and wrong terms.

The unfortunate part about that is that when you scratch the surface, it is always my black vs. your white, my good vs. your evil, my right vs. your wrong.

The reality is that the world contains a vast array of shades of grey, to the point where - as Boaz will tell you at the drop of a dog-whistle - one man's freedom is another's thought crime.

So here we have a situation where world+dog appears to agree that a kirpan is a "concealed weapon", and that the permission to carry such artifact concealed about one's person is equivalent, seemingly, to permission to carry and use an AK47.

There seems to be a shortage of perspective here, don't you think?

Let's move on an inch or so. Let us all agree, just for the sake of argument, that the carrying of a sheathed, concealed kirpan by a devout, family-loving and innocent Sikh is simply the carrying of a religious emblem as a constant reminder of one's selfless obligation to others.

In what way does this equate to "wearing large crosses across our chests as the Crusaders wore as they went to slaughter the infidel pagan Muslims"?

Are we not overreacting just a teensy, teensy bit here?

I personally have no problem with people wearing the paraphernalia of their religion, whether it is a cross, kirpan, yarmulke, headscarf or veil.

The problem is not with the religion itself, of which there are clearly a vast number, each providing some emotional comfort its own constituency. But when those superficially religious folk start using their own set of beliefs to whack other sets of beliefs, that I find annoying.

I believe that the law in this case has taken the sensible course between the potential for damage caused by a small religious artefact and the sensitivities of a peaceful, family-oriented religious group.

CJ
For you from Wendy at PALE-
How much expereince have you had dealing with Muslim Leaders of Australia- Or anywhere else for that matter?

Come on you can tell us we are all interested to know?

I dont mind telling you our dealings with them.

You are now being addressed by someone who has held a MOU with Muslim Leaders for the last four and a half years.

In short it would be very fair to say they are a lot smarter than our Christian Leaders by a long run.

I am happy to share that much.

They certainly are miles in front considering they will at least talk about cruelty to animals and they acknowledge its their reasonsibilty to ensure animals dont suffer before slaughter.

They do have however an attitude in general which I find of some concern.
Before I share that with you whats your expereince working with Muslim Leaders.
WE are interested to know a bit more about your back ground and interest in this subject.

For Eg Are you Muslim?

Do you work with Muslim People or have many Muslim Friends.

You have made many comments and tend to be angered by anybody seeing large Muslim migration as a threat to their Australia culture for their grand kids.

I am personally interested to hear more about your own involement with Muslim people who came to Australia for a better way of life.


Spoken by Wendy and posted by Taryn.
PS A civil reply is a;ll that is required - Thanks

Pericles

>> Are we not overreacting just a teensy, teensy bit here?

If this was an isolated incident, Pericles, then I might be inclined to agree with you. Unfortunately this is just another example of the minority dictating to the majority how we live our lives. Many Australians legitimately feel that our way of life is being eroded, piece by piece, by the politically correct multiculturalists brigade.

>> world+dog appears to agree that a kirpan is a "concealed weapon", and that the permission to carry such artefact concealed about one's person is equivalent … to carry and use an AK47

Now you are being stupid. A kirpan is an edged weapon with the potential to do real damage. No matter how you want to look at it, that’s undeniable. I personally have a problem with anyone wanting to wear their religious insignia to school. Our “Public” schools are supposed to be secular.

What is most incredible to me is that the cultural cringe brigade( read multiculturalists) regularly suggest that our culture is not static; intimating that there is no such thing as Australian culture. At the same time these cretins are happy to tell us that other people’s cultures are so rigid that we MUST allow them to express themselves however they are required, meaning of course that we should change to accommodate this.

>> I believe that the law in this case has taken the sensible course …

The point for all of us, Pericles, is that this is just another precedent which encourages special interest groups, particularly the migrant lobby groups, to demand special treatment. Ho Ho Ho offends a handful of idiots, and now santas everywhere are banned from saying it. It really is a very short walk to Merry Christmas being offensive, then celebrating Christmas at all. In the end we need to make a clear decision on whether we are going to accommodate every wish and whim of every minority group or whether some things are sacred to us and are not negotiable

Culture evolves Paul, over 100’s of years. Are you suggesting culture is static? How do you reconcile this with history?

You again distort or misrepresent the truth of multiculturalism – don’t be so paranoid.

Of course there is an Ozzie culture, and it is evolving like all other cultures – it’s just that we (Australia) are younger and freer to inculcate the bits from each that makes an Australian society a great place to grow in.

And no, us “cretins” DO NOT tell you “that other people’s cultures are so rigid that you MUST allow them to express themselves however they are required, meaning of course that we should change to accommodate this.”

We have Australian laws Paul – some may want to look up the Australian Law Reform Commission’s web site, they might learn something.

Paul, you seem to get a great deal of pleasure out of calling people cretins, morons, etc – as if you are trying to incite racial hatred.

Grow up, please.

BTW, I am 5th generation Oz from anglo-saxon breeding stock.

Interesting choice of words, Paul.L

>>this is just another example of the minority dictating to the majority how we live our lives<<

Eh? In what way is this "dictating"? You have a small minority of the population asking for a little understanding, and suddenly this is "dictating how we live our lives?"

>>Now you are being stupid. A kirpan is an edged weapon with the potential to do real damage.<<

But it doesn't have to be. A more measured response would be to accommodate the religious requirement in a mutually acceptable form. This argument has been going on around the world for at least ten years http://www.aclunc.org/news/opinions/religious_freedom_and_sikh_school_children.shtml and the most intelligent approach seems to be to require them to be a) blunt and b) sheathed at all times. In this way they become no more dangerous than a whole lot of other equipment in use every day, such as pens, geometry dividers etc.

>>I personally have a problem with anyone wanting to wear their religious insignia to school. Our “Public” schools are supposed to be secular.<<

That, of course, is a horse of an entirely different colour. Objecting to the kirpan in principle is a far more honest approach than concocting a "danger to life and limb" argument.

>>Ho Ho Ho offends a handful of idiots, and now santas everywhere are banned from saying it. It really is a very short walk to Merry Christmas being offensive, then celebrating Christmas at all.<<

Oh, puhlease. What was reported was that Westaff had advised their Santas to avoid "ho ho ho". You will notice that i) nowhere has a Santa been banned from saying it and ii) the company concerned has backtracked at a million miles an hour.

So your progression to banning Christmas falls at the first hurdle: reality.

>>In the end we need to make a clear decision on whether we are going to accommodate every wish and whim of every minority group or whether some things are sacred to us and are not negotiable<<

Interesting use of the word "sacred..."

BOAZ_David and SCOTTY

Why such an hysterical response? Where do you get all this hate and fear from?

Let's consider the facts. Firstly, this 'news' is not fresh news.

Under the Control of Weapons Act (1990) the then Victorian Labor Government issued an exemption for Sikhs who carry kirpans as part of their traditional culture and religion. The exemption was endorsed under the Liberal Government's Control of Weapons (Amendment) Regulations 2003, effective from July 1 2004 "for the purpose of the performance of duties associated with religious observance".

Can you tell OLO how many incidents of violence with kirpans have been committed since 1990?

In what sense would you describe kirpans as 'WEAPONS' (sic) BOAZ?

When you say: "last time I checked, carrying a concealed unlicenced weapon, which includes knives is illegal...", you are right. But as you can see from the Victorian legislation quoted above a kirpan is not defined as a weapon and your wishing it were so won't make it so.

In what sense can kirpans be compared with AK47s, SCOTTY, or with smoking joints at school? It's more authentic to compare kirpans with the large ceremonial pins used to decorate kilts worn at some private schools. I've never known a case of assault from these (shout) WEAPONS. Likewise, the chisels in the woodwork room or the carving knives in the cookery classroom could be deadly (shout) WEAPONS, but let's be sensible.

And in what sense is this a Labor Party issue SCOTTY? The Parliamentary Committee is comprised of 4 ALP Parliamentarians and 4 Coalition Parliamentarians.

BOAZ: "Now we have crossed the line...This is just a further example of the madness that 'difference' is creating." What line have we crossed that we didn't cross in 1990? And what 'madness' are you alluding to: your own paranoia and self-delusion? Take your tablets and calm down.