The reaction of some posters to David’s & Shockadelic’s comments…
unbelievable! who said cricketers were the champions of sledging(?)

David exposes an all too all too common a mindset amongst Muslims ( perhaps, the dominant one) Shockadelic’s list, shows its inevitable consequences.

All too often, Muslims represent their beliefs’ as being beyond even questioning/reasoning.
Not just in the sense of – I don’t want to discuss it, something common to many creeds –but also in the sense that, if you offend my beliefs I have a god driven right to retaliate, & in what ever form takes my fancy.

Some Western civil leaders have advocated that we should come to an accommodation with such a mindset by avoiding to criticise Islam. Apparently, while Islam may
recruit from amongst open societies, Its adherents dispositions are too
fragile to accept open societies critical assessment.

Others, on OLO tell us there is nothing to be alarmed about, there are only
a minority who think/act like extremists – just sit tight [ I suspect that's the
same advice that frogs sitting in a warming saucepan tell each other ]

Others, like the sledgers, are still in kindergarten dreamtime playing with plasticine & pulling each others hair…

The Sinner's Bill of Rights

We the people, hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are sinful, and that they are endowed with certain unalienable Rights:

The Right to Work on Any Day, even religious holidays.

The Right to Intoxication, to consume any mind altering substance.

The Right to Imperfection, to be deformed or defective in mind or body.

The Right to Suicide, to prefer death to life.

The Right to Doubt, to disbelieve, to question everything.

The Right to Wrath, to hate or be angry, to seek revenge.

The Right to Cowardice, to put one's own survival before all else.

The Right to Sorcery, Fortune Telling and Astrology, to believe in forces other than the official God(s).

The Right to Lust, to gain sexual pleasure alone, with any willing adult companions of either sex, with any part of one's anatomy, or with any inanimate object.

The Right to Exuberance, to excessive emotional display.

The Right to Lie (or Omit Truth), for any reason within one's private life, and in public for entertainment purposes.

The Right to Idolatry, to place any thing or category of things in a position of primary importance.

The Right to Offend, to ridicule or be disrespectful, to use offensive language.

The Right to Sadness, to be melancholy and joyless.

The Right to Dishonour one's Parents or Ancestors, what do they know.

The Right to Greed, to amass more wealth than one requires, and to Gamble, to play games of chance for material gain.

The Right to Identity, to perceive oneself in any way, to attire oneself accordingly, or to modify one's body.

The Right to Spy or Betray, in order to further one's own interests.

The Right to Believe in Unorthodoxies, no matter how apparently ludicrous in the eyes of the Orthodox.

The Right to Sloth, to be lazy, indifferent or purposeless.

The Right to Pride, to be vane or arrogant.

The Right to Envy, to be jealous.

The Right to Fun, to not take anything seriously, to waste time on frivolity, to be mischievous.

boaz

I'm having a humdinger of a dialogue with an Australian Christian right now.

THE ISSUE: I claimed that the christian god was willing to permit the torture and murder innocent women and children, simply to win a bet and prove His greatness.

I supported the claim with the book of Job, which is pretty unambiguous.

I then suggested he might try a number of responses, based on past history in this kind of debate:

1) Go to a Christian, and just 'swallow' what he feeds you which is either:
a) it didn't happen.
b) it did happen, but this is quite okay if it's god doing it.

His response was this:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4857&page=10

"There is indeed an important message, perhaps found in the words of Job at the end.
2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted. "
There is also the blessing of Job at the end.. showing that suffering is not always the end of the story.
All I would say on Job would be conjecture :) But I hold that it is rightfully part of the Canon, and is to be valued as such"

Now this 'VALUE SYSTEM' is growing in our midst..like a malignant cancer..that would regard killing YOUR wife (and children and property, with added torture and disease) (and Franks) as an acceptable part of proving god's greatness.
The sad part though is that they mysteriously connect such things with 'holiness' and God... its a classic case of 'calling evil good, and good evil' and it is an indictment on their spiritual condition from which they (like all people) need salvation in rejecting such primitive superstition.

---

I eagerly await the line that presumably we should all swallow, instead of calling a spade a spade, and denouncing the hideous god that would permit the torture of job just to prove He is powerful, before just 'replacing' his daughters with prettier ones and letting Job into heaven - after the torture.

Ah. That makes it all fine then.

TRTL.... *OUCH* :)

well..I can always rely on you for at least sincere criticism.. as opposed to the blather and irrational dribble coming from 'other quarters'....

JOB... ... some important points.

The principle of the absolute sovereignty of God..in all circumstances, is certainly underlined in that book.

As to the 'justice' of allowing Job to be 'tortured' as you put it.....well.. it all ended well... but in terms of the book...it is seen by some as poetry... by others as a historical report...

Either way, there is no 'command' in it or.. generalized allowance for God's people to ill treat others. This is most important in relation to the dialogue you are referring to. Me with Muslim bloke,which is US..HERE..NOW... and yours and mine..about Job ?

I believe we should approach such things in a big picture way also, looking at what the Bible actually DOES or does NOT allow us to do, and contrast that with what Islam allows/commands Muslims to do.

So, in terms of VALUES... the above para is 'paramount' :)

Can you imagine if we sought biblical justification for raping Aboriginal women, just because they are 'kaffirs' ?

First.. It is not there.
Second....In Islam, it is.

BACK 2 the KIRPAN :)

boaz, you consistently say that we should scrutinise the Qu'ran for being violent. You urge readers to exercise their moral judgement, which is fair enough.

But in response to the book of job, all you can say is:

a) there is no command to mistreat people.
b) all ended well.

Problem here boaz, you're avoiding the central issue I have here.

Using the same critical reasoning you're asking us to apply to the Qu'ran, apply that to the behaviour of God in this tale.

When God tortures someone's family to prove their devotion to Him and cement his greatness, is is excusable?

You've pretty much accepted that the only reason for this exercise, was to prove that god's will cannot be thwarted.

As far as the 'it all ended well' argument goes - that is no justification for killing someone's family. In fact, one of the most repugnant aspects of this story, is the fact that God simply replaces the daughter he killed with a new daughter who looked prettier - as if she was a mere possession.
Even the argument that he got into heaven is pretty weak, when you consider that the reason why Job was punished, was to prove his devout loyalty to god was not derived from having a pleasant life - so he would have been destined for heaven anyway.

Cont'd

This is a god who tortured someone who already was devoted to him, merely to prove god's greatness.

You've not challenged that.

So I can only conclude that you refuse to judge your god - you can't apply critical reasoning. Presumably, it isn't up to us to question god's motives.

No matter how heinous the act may be.
No matter that it's an infantile bet.
No matter that were it a human, we would describe the motives of this act as 'pride' or arrogance, which is among the Christian sins.

Well boaz, that's how devout muslims feel about Allah and Mohammed. It isn't up to them to judge.

Whilst I concede Islam has been interpreted by extremists in a manner that allows violence, which doesn't appear to happen as often with Christianity, you're using the same excuses.

Whilst the result hasn't been the same, the only excuse you can use is exactly the same as the extremists. "It isn't up to us to judge god's plan. God is great."

To hell with that. If the book of Job is indeed to be accepted as god's actions, then I reject this version of Him utterly, and if you had the courage to apply the same criticism you apply to the Qu'ran, you would too.

You demand that Muslims renounce the violent aspects of their holy book. Can you renounce the violent aspects of your god?

You've consistently avoided applying any judgement on the actions of God in this tale.

In the earlier post, you said that you couldn't analyse this because it would just be conjecture.

That's precisely what I want - your opinion, not some scriptural code. You've made thousands of posts on this website, offering scriptural interpretation.

Even when I said that most are turned off by this, finding it akin to an automated machine on the telephone instead of a real person.

I ask you, yet again - do you think God was justified in permitting the devil permit unspeakable acts of torture on one of His most devoted followers, simply to prove His will cannot be thwarted?