The Guardian writes that"

"We've all been profoundly shaken by recent events in
Israel and Gaza. This conflict marks the start of a
chapter that is likely to affect millions of lives, both
in the Middle East and further afield for years to come."

The ICC's prosecutor, Karim Khan, has announced that
he was pursuing arrest warrants for Israeli PM Benjamin
Netanyahu and the Israeli Defence Minister - Yoav Gallant.

Khan is also pursuing the warrants of three leading Hamas
figures - Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Diab Ibrahim al-Masri -
also known as Mohammed Delf, and Ismail Haniyeh, over
Hamas's attack on Israel on 7th October 2023.

We're told that the evidence will be considered by a panel
of three judges before a decision is made.

Is this a way to force both sides of this conflict to
come to the table for peace negotiations ?

Can anything positive be achieved by these actions?

Is it worth a try?

Will either side take note of this attempt by the Court?

Your thoughts please.
Without personal attacks.

What I cannot understand, is why Yoav Gallant is included on this list:
as defence minister he constantly tries to moderate Netanyahu and soften his orders. The Nazis in Netanyahu's coalition keep asking Netanyahu to sack him. And why are THEY not on the list?

While Netanyahu undoubtedly deserves to be locked up, this measure is very unlikely to achieve it - he just wouldn't travel anywhere outside Israel except the U.S.A (which is not a member of the ICC).

Most Israelis believe that Netanyahu should be jailed for his crimes against the Israeli people, rather than against "Palestinians".

On the down-side, this measure somewhat improves Netanyahu's political position by making him kind of a martyr. Even the Israeli opposition, though they would love to see Netanyahu jailed, better still hanged, cannot openly agree to the placing of Netanyahu on the same list as Hamas leaders.

I totally agree with the ICC action. However there is one war criminal whose name is not included SLEEPY JOE BIDEN, Biden is just as coupable in the murderous genocide being committed in Gaze by the Zionists as anyone. I totally agree that the members of Hamas named, are also war criminals.

It appears that the Court is doing the job for which
it was created. It's trying to end impunity through
the international justice system and to hold those
responsible of grave international crimes to account, and
in this way to prevent future atrocities from happening
again.

It's our responsibility to support the ICC and allow it to
relentlessly pursue accountability.

In this conflict - both sides need to be held to account.

Yuyutsu,

Regarding Netanyahu?

We're told that "Investigations and charges take time. But
the ICC is now acting fast. It took only 4 weeks for the
pre-trial chamber to issue an arrest warrant for Putin in
2023."

"If an arrest warrant is issued against Netanyahu it will mean
he can no longer travel to 124 states that are party to the
ICC and wish to abide by their commitment to international law."

"If he does he could be arrested and sent to the ICC in
The Hague where he would then face trial. Netanyahu's trial
could also occur in Israel if a future government is willing
to abide by international law."

"While it is unlikely that Netanyahu will end up at the ICC.
It is not impossible. But regardless the ICC decision has
wide political implications. He's been given a label he will
never be able to shake."

There's more at the following link:

http://theconversation.com/iccs-milestone-bid-for-netanyahu-arrest-warrant-will-have-wide-political-impact-even-if-he-evades-the-court-230478

Dear Foxy,

Regarding Netanyahu, we agree that he should be hanged, drawn and quartered.

But I disagree with the inclusion of Yoav Gallant on those charges.
No other Defence Minister could successfully stand up against his/her boss, Netanyahu, and relatively moderate his policies to the extent Gallant did.

«he can no longer travel to 124 states that are party to the ICC»

Thus the Netanyahus will no longer be able to take their dirty laundry (11 suitcases at a time) to Portugal for dry cleaning - but they could still take these suitcases to America, to be cleaned for free in the White-House's official guest-house.

Judging by the history of the ME it'll be that Khan chap who'll need hide from now on me thinks.

Knock, knock.

Is this the venue for the “Moral Masochists Association for the advancement of Iranian terror cells.org”?

Pathetic lot!

Gallant, on October 9th, right at the beginning of the
war said that a "complete siege" was being imposed
and that "no electricity , no food, no fuel would be
allowed into the coastal enclave."

If you make outrageous statements, there can be
outrageous consequences.

The prosecutor has charged Netanyahu and Gallant with
crimes including the war crime of starvation.

Which investigators don't need to physically access given the
extensive cross-border activity and accounts of international
organizations operating on the ground that signal this crime.

The charges against Sinwar, Mohammed Dief, and Ismail
Haniyeh, also follow the Hamas atrocities brutally captured
on video for the world to see.

At a time when Israel is seeking to shore up support among
allies for its ongoing military actions the arrest warrants
may accelerate the growing push for Netanyahu to leave.

As unspeakable atrocities are committed, we need reminding
that we do need an International Criminal Court as a pillar
of the International Criminal Justice System in the fight
against impunity. This is needed now more than ever.

The creation of the ICC is a warning to the perpetrators of
atrocities and a message of hope to the victims that justice
will be done.

It is our responsibility to keep the promise of a more
just world by strengthening the ICC and pursuing
accountability before National Courts. Holding the
perpetrators of grave international crimes to account hopefully
will prevent future atrocities and preserve
peace for all citizens. On both sides.

Dear Dan,

This is the venue for disposing of a particular Israeli criminal tyrant, one who also inspired more Arabs than anybody else to form Iranian terror cells, as well as more "progressives" than anybody else to harass Jews around the world. May he end his life in the same prison cell with his brother Yahya Sinwar

But I suppose you despise moral masochists, instead preferring immoral sadists like the above pair.

Yuyutsu

Freud devoted a good part of his latter life in the study of the phenomena.

Pretty much, he concluded little hope for a peaceful future for the human race, since hand in hand with masochism is sadism.

Seems nature, (God), had a reason: maybe you can guess the answer for us.

This will be as successful as when this same UN body sought arrest warrants against Putin.

We all know how that bought the war in Ukraine to a screaming halt!!

This is just more of the usual Hamas cheer-squad clutching at straws as they try to find a way to save that terrorist group from the wrath of those they attacked.

BTW would it be crass to point out that Karim Ahmad Khan is a Mohomadian?

Just as crass a Netanyahu, et al, are Zionists!

Just the request for arrest warrants in itself could
limit any travel plans for Netanyahu and Gallant.
All 124 member states are required to arrest wanted
fugitives by the ICC.

While Israel is not a member state of the ICC and
rejects its jurisdiction the Court admitted the
Palestinian Territories in 2015 and Khan says his
office has jurisdiction over the events since
October 7th in Israel and the Gaza Strip.

As for Putin?

The ICC warrant has complicated Putin's position by
increasing elites unhappiness with him (the war crimes
accusation complicates his ability to travel freely
abroad) and as a result by heightening his suspicion
of the people around him. His paranoia will only worsen.

So we've gone from "Is this a way to force both sides of this conflict to come to the table for peace negotiations ?"

to...oh it might complicate their travel plans.

My point made.

But it is a shame. Afghanistan is a signatory. I guess Bibi won't be going there any time soon....and Kabul is so nice this time of the year.

"Just as crass a[s saying] Netanyahu, et al, are Zionists!"
Oh so an equivalence then. So, since you think Bibi is hopelessly compromised, logically you must also agree Khan is likewise.

While dozens of countries have recognized a
Palestinian State none of the major Western
powers have done so. Now 3 countries have.
AP News tells us that the decision from Norway,
Ireland, and Spain may generate momentum.

This marks a significant accomplishment for the
Palestinians. It confers international legitimacy
on their struggle amid international outrage
over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Israel's bombardment is rendering Gaza uninhabitable.
People in Gaza face relentless bombardment, death,
and destruction on an unprecedented scale.

"While Israel is not a member state of the ICC" just as Al Capone was not a member of the Police Benevolent Society! Just as the war criminal Biden is not sure how high America should hang Julian Assange for exposing the truth about their war crimes, he's not sure how big a party he should throw for his fellow war criminal that Zionist Netanyah.

When Karim Khan won the 9-year term as a Prosecutor
for the ICC he was the favoured candidate of both
the United States and Israel for his current position.

He has under his belt three decades of experience as
an international criminal law and human rights lawyer.

Graduating from King's College London, with a Bachelor
of Laws, he went on to gain significant experience as
a prosecutor, victim's counsel, and defense lawyer.

Most recently he served as an Assistant Sec-General
of the UN and was a special adviser and head of the
UN's Investigative team to promote accountability
for crimes committed in Iraq 2018-2021.

"People in Gaza face relentless bombardment, death,
and destruction on an unprecedented scale."

One doesn't have to be monumentally historically ignorant to write something like that....but it helps.

Dresden, Allepo, Leningrad, Mongol conquest of China, Dacia etc etc etc

History lies at the core of every conflict.

Distortion, manipulation sows disaster.

That Palestine was an empty desert-like land - without
people. Equating Zionism with Judaism, That - Anti-Zionism can only
be depicted as anti-Semitism. That Palestinians voluntarily
fled. that the 1967 war was forced on Israel - a "no
choice war." And much, much, more. That criticism of Israel
comes from Jew Haters.

None of this helps anyone.

"When Karim Khan won the 9-year term as a Prosecutor for the ICC he was the favoured candidate of both the United States and Israel for his current position."

Pure fabrication.

"History lies at the core of every conflict."
Huh? Inanity reigns supreme.

So we've gone from "Is this a way to force both sides of this conflict to come to the table for peace negotiations ?"

to...oh it might complicate their travel plans.

My point made.

Poor old “Vixen”, been nibbling at the 1080 again….

Dear Foxy,

«Gallant, on October 9th, right at the beginning of the
war said that a "complete siege" was being imposed
and that "no electricity , no food, no fuel would be
allowed into the coastal enclave."»

At that early stage of the war it was believed that this will make the Gazan population rebel and overthrow Hamas, thus preventing much bloodshed. Also, that without electricity Hamas will not be able to ventilate its tunnels and will be forced to emerge to the surface.

But this tactic failed to work.
Israel did not realise how strong was the hold of Hamas over the Gazan people.
Also, how much diesel Hamas stored to operate their tunnel-ventilators.

That tactic was soon abandoned and sufficient food and water were allowed into Gaza, starting from 200 trucks per day (while 100 trucks would have been sufficient for Gazan sustenance) and many more now.
Hamas, however, confiscated that food, deliberately starving the Gazan people.

If Hamas ever cared for the Gazan people, all it needed to do was to release the Israeli hostages, then the hostilities and hunger would immediately end. They never till now even stopped launching rockets into Israel.

«If you make outrageous statements, there can be outrageous consequences.»

Correct, the consequences for Gallant are outrageous even as his statements were only words and not translated into actions.
Gallant made these statements in order to to appease Netanyahu, otherwise he would have been replaced as Defence-Minister by a much worse person. The Israeli Nazi party still considers him a traitor.

---

Dear Dan,

«Seems nature, (God), had a reason: maybe you can guess the answer for us.»

This goes off topic, but since you ask, the reason is for us to learn that we are not separate from each other, so if we hurt another then we must automatically suffer as well.

---

Dear Paul,

«he's not sure how big a party he should throw for his fellow war criminal that Zionist Netanyah.»

Netanyahu is not a Zionist, just a criminal.

Dear Foxy,

«While dozens of countries have recognized a
Palestinian State none of the major Western
powers have done so.»

I think they should, Israel too - nothing could embarrass the so-called "Palestinians" more because having a state of their own is the last thing they want, nor will they be able to overcome the loss of their privileged "victim" status.

Having a state, you know, brings with it responsibilities, not just privileges!

«Israel's bombardment is rendering Gaza uninhabitable.
People in Gaza face relentless bombardment, death,
and destruction on an unprecedented scale.»

True, but Hamas' operations render Israel too uninhabitable.
People in Israel also face relentless bombardment, death,
and destruction on an unprecedented scale.

«That Palestine was an empty desert-like land - without
people. Equating Zionism with Judaism, That - Anti-Zionism can only
be depicted as anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism can only
be depicted as anti-Semitism. that the 1967 war was forced on Israel - a "no
choice war." And much, much, more.»

Zionism indeed is not Judaism, Zionism was in fact an attempt by certain Jews to escape the Jewish fate.

Other than that, you brought an interesting list of half-truths:

There is no such place as "Palestine", nevertheless, LARGE PARTS of the lands in Israel were either desert or otherwise uninhabitable due to swamps and malaria-carrying mosquitoes.

For SOME, Anti-Zionism is indeed derived by anti-Semitism.

In 1948, many "Palestinian" villages were ordered by Arab militias to leave their homes - "stay out of this war-zone, just give us 2 weeks to finish off the Jews, then you can return home and also have their loot".

The militias failed to finish off the Jews, hence the villagers were unable to return.

Most of those who chose to remain in their towns and villages, their descendants are now Israeli citizens. Over 20% of Israel's population and murdered alike by Hamas last October 7th!

The 1967 war was indeed forced on Israel - though not Israel's continued occupation once the Arab armies were routed in 6 days, at which time Israel should have withdrawn back to its borders.

So why hasn't every American President in the last 100 years been arrested?

All the planet can be charged, except an American.

We need an international criminal court in
the fight against impunity. This is needed now more
than ever. We need to hold perpetrators of grave
international crimes to account and today unspeakable
atrocities are being committed.

If we believe in the rule of international law, and expect
nations to abide by the law, there should be no objection
to the ICC's presentation of collected evidence and the
decision the judges shall make.

Lets wait and see what that will be. And why.

nor will they be able to overcome the loss of their privileged "victim" status.
Yuyutsu,
They have that too ?

Just an update on some of the things we've found out in the past week or so:

* Hamas controlled Gaza Ministry of Health vastly reduced their claims about civilian deaths. The UN then followed suit. "The United Nations Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) revised its child fatality figure from the Gaza war sharply downward, reporting more than 14,500 deaths on May 6 but then 7,797 on May 8. OCHA also revised downward its figure for women fatalities from more than 9,500 deaths to 4,959 deaths." Someone asked why this wasn't front page news. Those who understand the left wing/pro-Hamas bias of the media already know the answer to that.

* The Biden administration was found to have been withholding information from Israel concerning the location of the hostages and some Hamas leadership

* The Biden administration was found to have withheld promised supplies from Israel.

* 60% of the famine relief sent to Gaza over the new US floating pier, was stolen by Hamas before it got to the UN store-houses.

* Its estimated Hamas leadership has made $US 500 million profit from stolen famine relief supplies.

* Trucks held up in Rafah by Egypt because they refuse to allow Israel to inspect them for weapons. I wonder why? </sarc>

I'm guessing you'll struggle to find any of this covered in your normal sources.

Dear Foxy,

«If we believe in the rule of international law»

But why should we?

I only believe in the rule of God, and it is total and infallible - who needs another?

«We need an international criminal court in the fight against impunity.»

Not to worry - under God's rule there is nowhere even a grain of impunity.

Netanyahu will surely get his term in hell for all his crimes against the Israeli people, first and foremost the hostages, then all the soldiers and civilians that were killed and maimed in his struggle to retain his seat and avoid prison. Also for the Arab people of the West Bank which he turned a blind eye allowing the settlers to pogrom, also for the Jewish truck drivers that were badly injured and had their trucks torched when these Judeo-Nazi settlers suspected [wrongly] that they carried aid for Gaza in their trucks, as he prevented the police from intervening. Also the displaced people or northern Israel who remain homeless because he keeps trying to prolong the war, also the Jews around the world who suffer from anti-Semitism because of him... and yes, he also shares with Sinwar the responsibility for the hunger and death in Gaza.

For all that, he will suffer enormously in hell along with his earlier colleagues, including Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot and his present friends, Sinwar and Putin.

Now if you believe that Yoav Gallant is also responsible for any of this, then not to worry, God sees it all and if that is the case then he will also share that fate - no need for an ICC!

---

Dear Indyvidual,

«They have that too ?»

[referring to the privileged "victim" status of the so-called "Palestinians]

That is practically their biggest asset, they don't have much else going for them!

Once they get a state, they will quickly lose that asset - so I recommend they do!

"I'm guessing you'll struggle to find any of this covered in your normal sources." mhaze what are your sources? Some Nazi propaganda site no doubt!

Yuyutsu

I much prefer your discussing spiritual matters; you have sweet FA ability with politics.

Especially your hate session with Bi Bi: It’s unbecoming of you.

And here is one fir you:

If the hostage families insist on taking the front stage on their personal issues, as opposed to the National interest of winning the war against Satan next door, they should be locked up or shot!

Yuyutsu,

The first ever
Cordless Phone
was created by God.

He named it
"Prayer"...

It never loses its
Signal and U never
have to Recharge it.

Use it Anywhere... !

Dear Dan,

«If the hostage families insist on taking the front stage on their personal issues, as opposed to the National interest of winning the war against Satan next door, they should be locked up or shot!»

I could go on and on expounding why the above statement is wrong.

But you know what, there is no need for it, because Israel's prime-minister himself, though he personally lost nothing in this war, is opposed in everything he does to Israel's national interest and constantly abets the "Satan next door" (whom he brought to power in the first place), so what can one expect of those who because of him lost their dearest loved ones?

Netanyahu claims that he was never warned about the possibility of Hamas attacking, but just today, the IDF officially revealed that it sent Netanyahu 4 different letters of warning about it between March and July 2023.

Not only did he know in advance about "Satan next door"'s approaching attack, I believe he was himself "Satan indoor" who collaborated October 7th with Sinwar, by preventing the IDF from being sufficiently alert, that because he needed a war to buy time for personally avoiding jail.

Paul, who has previously advised that he never feels the need to provide sources for his wacky ideas, always demands sources when he sees something he doesn't want to be true....

" mhaze what are your sources? Some Nazi propaganda site no doubt!"

Well I said it right in the posts - the data came from the The United Nations Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

So not a Nazi group. Besides the Nazis are opposed to the Jews so they wouldn't be downgrading their numbers, would they? Oh.. Nazis are opposed to the Jews; Paul's opposed to the Jews.....ummmmm!.

Yuyutsu

So this be the “Gotcha” moment that will finally topple Netanyahu Yuyutsu

exactamentepara ser exactos…the final nail!

Well, he should pack up his coffee cup and get the flock out of there then!…wink!

Just saw the ICC described as the “reeking rodent”.

Even the politician who signed Australia up to the rat's nest now suggests it is time to pull out. We should pull out of that other disgusting acronym, the UN while we are about it.

"IDF officially revealed that it sent Netanyahu 4 different letters of warning about it between March and July 2023."

That's rather disingenuous of you Yuyutsu.
The IDF DIDN'T specifically warn the government of an imminent attack.
The IDF DIDN'T warn the government of an attack from Gaza.
The IDF DIDN'T warn the government of an attack in October. Indeed their warnings ceased in July.

All they did was warn that the upheavals over the changes to the court system were being viewed by the Arabs as a weakness especially since some of IDF units had stood down in protest. But all that was resolved by October.

The IDF had no inkling of the October attack and most certainly didn't warn Netanyahu or anyone else in power of that specific attack.

I know, given your fundamentalism, that you would be a believer in such 'prophesies' but they are usually in the eye of the beholder. Hint: Amos didn't prophesies the coming of Tiglath-Pileser, despite what the Bible says.

Dear Mhaze,

«Besides the Nazis are opposed to the Jews»

Nazis are those who believe, in thought word and deed, that their nation (hence the name, "Nazional-Socialist") is "über alles", thus all others are disposable and should either be subservient or die.

Not all Nazis are German Nazis.

The term "Judeo-Nazis" was coined by Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz in 1982, himself an Israeli orthodox Jew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKZtzmjm-FM

Let us take a look at why we all should back the
International Criminal Court and the fight for
global justice.

The link listed below - gives 20 ICC benefits. Listed
amongst them are things like - the ICC being a
global court for the powerless. A place where
victims of genocide, crimes against humanity and war
crimes can get justice and redress.

That it is - independent and impartial. That one of the
main achievements and pillars of the Rome Statute
is the independence of the ICC, including the
prosecutor and judges, from governments and
from the UN's Security Council.

That the ICC
Rome Statute carries with it safeguards against
politically motivated investigations and prosecution.

And there's so much more given:

http://coalitionfortheicc.org/explore/20-icc-benefits#

Access to justice we're told, has been the new goal
of all UN member states. Through its governing body
the Assembly of States Parties, the ICC provides a
forum for states to share the future of International
Criminal Justice and to advocate for reform.

Each state has one equal vote.

Dear Mhaze,

«All they did was warn that the upheavals over the changes to the court system were being viewed by the Arabs as a weakness especially since some of IDF units had stood down in protest. But all that was resolved by October.»

The upheaval regarding Israel's court system was not resolved, neither by October nor till now - it was only shoved aside for a while due to the war.

«The IDF DIDN'T specifically warn the government of an imminent attack.
The IDF DIDN'T warn the government of an attack from Gaza.»

The IDF claimed yesterday that it did warn Netanyahu about an attack from Gaza. Netanyahu disputes it and Benny Gantz (Israel's likely next PM) called for [the equivalent of] a royal commission to investigate the differences.

The IDF never claimed that it had an exact date, only about the general intention.

«The IDF DIDN'T warn the government of an attack in October. Indeed their warnings ceased in July.»»

4 warnings were given between March 19th and July 16th - that is within 120 days, say 40 days apart. October 7th was 83 days later, so what you are saying is that Netanyahu believed that although the underlying conditions for the warnings remained the same: "since there were no warning this month, I think I will send the army home"?

«I know, given your fundamentalism, that you would be a believer in such 'prophesies'»

There were no prophesies, only professional intelligence gatherings.

As the letters mentioned Lebanon alongside Gaza, Netanyahu, to cover his tracks, conducted a month earlier a major exercise near the Lebanese border, preparing for a similar attack. Why not Gaza?

I think that Netanyahu knew of the exact date from his friend Sinwar and accordingly made sure that the IDF near Gaza remains on the lowest possible alert level, releasing most soldiers on a Sabbath/holiday leave.

Kenneth Roth, former executive director of Human
Rights Watch (1993 - 2022) is visiting professor
at Princeton's School of Public and International
Affairs has written an article for The Guardian in
which he asks why Israel is being defended despite
its war crimes?

We're told that it is disappointing, but not surprising
to read the response's to the ICC's accusations in an
attempt to defend Israel despite its war crimes.

We're told that the responses have been made with
predictable vitriol. - even questioning the Court's
Chief Prosecutor's impartiality despite his having
issued arrest warrants for the leaders of both sides
of the conflict, and his having vast experience in
criminal law.

http://theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/21/icc-benjamin-netanyahu-arrest-warrant

"The upheaval regarding Israel's court system was not resolved"

Some IDF units had stood down as a protest against the court changes. That is what had been resolved.

So your contention is that the IDF had made unspecified warnings about a possible Palestinian attack at an unspecified point in time in some unspecified location with unspecified aims and an unspecified number of assailants. And based on that the Israeli government should have, in your view, kept the army on high alert and cancelled all leave for an unspecified amount of time in unspecified locations.

Well there's nothing like being specific and that's not like specific!

"I think that Netanyahu knew of the exact date from his friend Sinwar .."

Hold the presses folks. Armchair Critic has a rival in the utterly bonkers department.

I always feel these claims that the attacked party just allowed the attack to happen for vile purposes to be vaguely racist. Effectively what they are saying is that the Gazans are too stupid to have pulled this off by themselves and needed the help of those evil Jews to do it.

The reflexively anti-US brigade, in their usual ignorance, are saying Biden should also be charged with genocide for the non-genocide of the Gazans. They, of course, fail to realise (or wilfully ignore) evidence that Biden and his administration have been actively working to help Hamas and their masters, Iran, by withholding information from Israel and delaying or outright halting the shipment of promised supplies and munitions.

Still you have to feel sorry for politicians in democracies with sizable mohammedan populations. Biden is trying to walk a tight-rope between not pissing the Jewish lobby off too much, (since they have been active Democrat supporters for decades) and not pissing the mohammedans in Michigan off. Unfortunately for silly old Joe, he needs the electoral votes from Michigan in November and the sizable mohammedan vote there will be crucial. So he tries to keep the Jews onside by talking about his support for Israel while trying to mollify the mohammedans by dropping hints of how much he's helping Hamas/Iran.

As usual he's failing.

But all western leaders with mohammedan populations have the same problem. The Tories in Britain have likewise been playing footsie with Hamas to try to keep a lid on their own mohammedan problem. Ditto France and Germany. Poland, for obvious reasons, doesn't have this problem

Australia also has the problem. But Albo, still in search of a backbone, has decided the best policy is to stay quiet and hope no one notices. Thus he used the moronic claim that he can't comment on court proceedings to try to avoid having to take sides on the ICC issue. I assume the usual flying-monkeys fell for it .

Netanyahu's response has called the proposed charges:

"An attempt to deny Israel the basic right of self-defense."

The charges are not about whether Israel can defend itself -
but How. Not by committing war crimes.

Netanyahu has also said that Israel had taken "unprecedented
measures to ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches those
in need in Gaza." A claim belied by extensive evidence of
Israel's arbitrary obstruction of food, medicine and other
necessities to the civilian population of Gaza, to the point
of famine which has arrived in parts of the territory.

Even the US government has been outspoken in its criticism
of the Netanyahu government for its arbitrary obstruction of
humanitarian aid.

It is vitally important in recognizing the independence of
the International Criminal Court. The rule of law does not
apply only to one's adversaries. The rule of law should apply
to both sides. Those who choose to defend the Israeli
government regardless of what it does - should remember to
affirm human rights standards regardless of who violates
them.

It is time for the world to reconsider these key issues.
War crimes are war crimes - no matter who violates them.

"A claim belied by extensive evidence of Israel's arbitrary obstruction of food, medicine and other necessities to the civilian population of Gaza,"

Israel gave unprecedented assistance to the US to help it construct and install its floating pier to allow supplies to reach Gaza. Once those supplies started flowing, Hamas stolen 60% of them before they reached the UN store-houses where they would have been distributed to the population. Instead Hamas uses the stolen supplies to finance its activities and add to the phenomenal wealth of its leadership. One claim was that Hamas leadership has made around $US 500 million from the sale of stolen supplies.

Egypt has been holding up supplies at Rafah because they won't allow Israel to inspect the truck for munitions. I'm guessing even someone as naive as Foxy can work out why they don't want the trucks searched.

We have heard claims of impending famine ever since 8 October last. Yet its always impending and never happens . I'll leave you to work out why.

Here is the full ICC statement on Netanyahu and Hamas
arrest warrants:

http://bbc.com/news/articles/ck881499vero

OOOPS. Another typo.

Here is the full ICC Statement on Netanyahu and Hamas arrest
warrants:

http://bbc.com/news/articles/cx881499vero

Third try:

http://bbc.com/news/articles/cx88l499vero

The Prosecutor at the end of the ICC Statement on the
Netanyahu and Hamas arrest warrants summed things up
in the following way:

"Let us today be clear on one core issue. If we do not
demonstrate our willingness to apply the law equally,
if it is seen as being applied selectively, we will be
creating the conditions for its collapse. "

"In doing so, we will be loosening the remaining bonds
that hold us together, the stabilising connections between
all communities and individuals, the safety net to which
all victims look in times of suffering. This is the true
risk we face at this moment."

"Now, more than ever, we must collectively demonstrate
that international humanitarian law, the foundational
baseline for human conduct during conflict, applies to
all individuals and applies equally across the
situations addressed by my Office and the Court."

"This is how we will prove, tangibly, that the lives
of all human beings have equal value."

http://bbc.com/news/articles/cx88l499vero

mhaze,

A quick trip to the OCHA website and under the heading "REPORTED IMPACT SINCE 7 OCTOBER 2023" what do we find; NOT YOUR NUMBERS BUT THE FOLLOWING NUMBERS.

PALESTINIANS
35,303+
Reported killed
MoH Gaza, in addition to 382 in the West Bank (OCHA) and ~1,000 in Israel, including people involved in the 7 October attack (Israeli authorities)

~79,261
Reported injured
MoH Gaza

ISRAELIS
1,200+
Reported killed
The estimate, which includes foreign nationals, has been changed by the Israeli sources.

~5,432
Reported injured
Israeli authorities, including foreign nationals

DAMAGE AND IDPS
70,000+
Housing units destroyed in Gaza
MoPWH

1.7 million
Displaced in Gaza
UN estimation

Paul,

My point was that the numbers of women and children had been dramatically reduced.

You're looking in the wrong place - the story of your life.

http://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-220

That's for 13 May.

If you look at the pages from 6 May and 8 May you'll see the reduction.

See if you can follow this logic. If the number of claimed deaths remains as high as before by the number of women and children falls, that means more men (ie combatants) were killed. Using those numbers it is now clear that the numbers of combatants to civilian deaths is the lowest ever achieved by an army in an urban war ie the IDF is doing extraordinarily well at protecting civilian lives.

Civilians already suffering unspeakable horrors under
Israel's constant bombardment, displacement, dire living
conditions, where according to numerous international
human rights organizations - starvation is being
weaponised, where the aid is grossly insufficient and
the health system is no longer functioning.

And despite international condemnation - the Israeli forces
persist in targeting civilians continuously defying
international law time and time again. But of course the claim is
that the number of deaths have fallen and they don't really
target civilians. They're just a casualty of war. This
explanation is given so that the behaviour can continue.
The US can send them more arms.

It appears though that the International Criminal Court does
not agree with this standard scenario and is taking action.
But of course what can we expect from a Muslim Prosecutor -
right? An Israeli should have been chosen. But wait Israel is not
a member state of the ICC. I wonder why?

Of course Israel has supporters. Especially in the US. People
like Donald Trump and his supporters, will undoubtedly back
Israel's actions. Trump stated that Hannibal Lecter
"was a wonderful man." - Lecter did have a friend for dinner.

mhaze,

"dramatically reduced" you say, well, you seem to be comfortable with lots of dead women and children in Gaza, maybe its because they are Muslims? hummmm! In fact the page you link to says 35,091 Palestinian casualties on day 220 May 13th, not some figure you dreamed up no figures of 7,797 (children) or 4,959 (women) are mentioned on that page, I assume its something you are making up, thinking its a defence for those Zionist war criminals you seem to be in love with!

The truth on that very page you provided a link to, "Disclaimer: Figures that are yet-to-be verified by the UN are attributed to their source."

Dr Matt Killingsworth of The Australian Institute of
International Affairs in his analysis says that:

"Netanyahu and Gallant and the Hamas Leaders will
now be cast as pariahs, suspected war criminals, and
grouped with all those they've tried to define themselves
against."

He goes on to say that:

"The International Criminal Court will not be able
to avoid the inevitable political fallout from its
actions. But, in behaving the way that it has, it has
strengthened its legitimacy as an agent of International
Criminal Justice."

There's more at the following:

http://internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/the-icc-takes-unprecedented-action-with-israel-hamas-leadership-arrest-warrants/

http://x.com/i/status/1787091169651904691

This'll probably confuse quite a few.

Paul,

Ya berk.

"not some figure you dreamed up no figures of 7,797 (children) or 4,959 (women) are mentioned on that page,"

Those figures are there in plain sight. Look at the graph headed "REPORTED CASUALTIES" and read the details - something I assume you rarely do.

Then come back and apologise....fat chance!

Fat chance for an Israeli apology or a ceasefire.

Israel continues to do what it's been doing. After all
it has a right to defend itself - and it does not matter
how it chooses to do so.

It has razed the coastal enclave making it unliveable.
It has prompted a catastrophic humanitarian crisis and has
killed thousands of civilians - and continues to do so.

The current arrest warrants may or may not be carried out,
but it is important that the global community upholds
international law.

The prosecutor and his supporters see that justice delayed
as justice denied.

Yes it would be a shame if we have more loss of lives
in an effort to hold a few individuals accountable. But to
do nothing is not an option. To allow these vile actions to
continue is simply wrong.

Will the ICC fulfill the Nuremberg vision that inspired
its existence?

"I was only following orders," was not an acceptable
defense then. And" we have a right to defend ourselves"
(by whatever means and however we choose) -
should not be one now.

"This'll probably confuse quite a few."

Especially the already hopelessly confused.

Of course, some will just pretend the facts aren't the facts because the narrative has to be protected.

So now we have pretty much every UN agency they can conjure trying to save Hamas from the consequences of their murderous invasion of Israel so that Hamas can survive to perpetrate more murderous invasions as they already promised.

Thankfully the Israeli government is more concerned about saving the lives of their citizens now and into the future by excising the murderous terrorist group (Hamas) from the planet. The world should be grateful and probably would be if it were anyone other the hated Jews who were doing the excision.

mhaze,

Off in La La Land as per usual, name calling (ya berk). The ICC issues arrest warrants for three senior Hamas figures for war crimes, and you claim, "(the ICC is) trying to save Hamas". This is the same bloke who thinks 7,000 dead children is ah-okay, all honky-dory with him. He talks of "murderous invasions", you should know, with the World Court, backed by about 150 countries including Australia, ordering the Zionist State to stop its murderous invasion of rafah! The Zionist State has now joined the likes of North Korea as a global pariah. mhaze do you also support North Korea, along with Murderous America NK could be the Zionist State's last friend on the planet?

Every country under attack has the right to defend
itself. But in doing so it must comply with
international humanitarian law.

We need to welcome this step by the ICC to end any
entrenched impunity and to hold those responsible for
committing international crimes accountable, and bring
them to justice.

No one in the world should be above international law.

Dear Foxy,

«No one in the world should be above international law.»

OK, but no one should be under that (or any other human-made) law either unless they voluntarily agree.

P.S. When you say "No one in the world", do you mean only humans or animals too, then why?

(please note that my comment and question are general in nature and not connected to this or that particular decision of the ICC)

Dear Foxy,

Nobody in Israel is listening to the ICC - and that means NOBODY, including those who happen to agree with the contents of its injunctions for different reasons.

Israelis go by what is good for Israel and that alone:
It is encouraging to read that 62% of Israelis believe that the release of Israeli hostages is paramount, even if that means stopping the war in Gaza.

Among other advantages:
Stopping the war will also stop the destruction of Israel's north by Hezbollah and allow the northern residents to return to their homes (those lucky enough whose homes and businesses still stand).
Stopping the war will also stop the constant loss of life and limb by Israeli soldiers.
Stopping the war will also allow ships to travel to and from Israel through the red sea.
Stopping the war will also reduce the chances of a direct Iranian attack.
Stopping the war will finally enable Israel to get rid of Netanyahu!

" This is the same bloke who thinks 7,000 dead children is ah-okay, all honky-dory with him."

Well I never said, implied or suggested such a thing. Just more fabrication from silly old Paul. But at least he's now acknowledging that the 7000 figure is valid and not, as he claimed, made up, which is quite a break-through for silly old Paul. Apology for claiming it was made up?.... fat chance!

Yuyutsu,
Won't stopping the war not also mean prolonging Hamas ?

Dear Indyvidual,

«Won't stopping the war not also mean prolonging Hamas ?»

Yes, prolonging the Gazan branch of Hamas.

Meanwhile the war tends to encourage new recruits elsewhere for Hamas and similar terror organisations.

Israel is not capable of defeating Hamas on its own.
Its strategy from 1967 when it was fighting against regular armies, does not seem to work in 2024 when it fights against terrorists.
Had there been a Palestinian state which attacked Israel, then that strategy would probably still be good,
but here it seems that only a large international coalition can do it:
and Israel is losing the battle on winning the hearts and minds of the world.

Unlike Napoleon and Hitler which were defeated by the Russian winter,
great leaders admit when their strategies fail,
but Netanyahu's strategy is not intended for saving israel
- it is intended for saving himself!

Yuyutsu,
Valid points !

Even in times of war - there are laws.

The Red Cross in the link given below tells us that:

"Everyone fighting a war needs to respect International
Humanitarian Law. Both government forces and non-state
armed groups."

We're told that - "there are consequences if the rules of
war are broken. That war crimes are documented and
investigated by states and international courts."

"Individuals can be prosecuted for war crimes."

In short the rules of war mean :

You don't torture people.
You don't attack civilians.
You protect those who are not fighting - such as
civilians, women and children, medical personnel,
and aid workers.
And, you treat detainees humanely.

cont'd ...

http://redcross.org.au/ihl/#

We're told that International Humanitarian Law (IHL)
is a set of international laws that set out what can and
cannot be done during an armed conflict.

The main purpose of its rules is to maintain some humanity
in armed conflicts, saving lives and reducing suffering.

To do that International Humanitarian Law regulates how
wars are fought, balancing two aspects,
to weaken the enemy and to limit the suffering.

The rules of war are universal.

The Geneva Convention (the core element of International
Humanitarian Law) has been ratified by 196 countries.

Very few international treaties have this level of support.

The following link explains how the International
Humanitarian Law applies in Israel and Gaza:

http://hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-humanitarian-law-apply-israel-and-gaza

Rather than waste time on the absurdity of some wackjob “court” whose demands, and very existence, are being laughed at and ignored, posters who are not anti-Semites might like to read this article by an Israeli woman and author.

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/israel/2024/05/rude-and-crude-but-definitely-justified/

Readers may have missed the following link - also worth
a read:

http://hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-humanitarian-law-apply-israel-and-gaza

Here's another link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Israel-Hamas_war#

Agnes Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International
tells us that:

"For 16 years Israel's illegal blockade has made Gaza the
world's biggest open-air prison. The international
community must act now to prevent it becoming a giant
graveyard."

http://amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/

As General Sir Peter Cosgrove said over the weekend: Hitler would be proud of the anti-Semites, included the instigator of this thread, megaphoning the blather of all the other anti-Semites she can dig up on Google.

Those of us who are against oppression and are -for eliminating
violence. Those of us who support a 2 state solution must
voice our objections and supply facts whether they deal with
Israeli or Palestinian behaviour. Especially when their behaviour
leads to greater oppression, mistrust, and most importantly
greater violence.

To say that any critique of a nation state is akin to
anti-Semitism is disingenuous and wrong. The Netanyahu
administration leaves no choice but to stand against their
hawkish policies and their oppressive tactics.

The government of Israel should be challenged world-wide for
its settler colonialism and its apartheid policies. And one method
is - to support the International Criminal Court.

Civilian deaths in Gaza will stop when Hamas stops using kids, burqas, hospitals and schools as human shields ie never.

http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3088c42fb126215093b76f7c5004244a17241c0b64b0adde4b6474c51e93a36f.jpg?w=800&h=481

Oh the humanity. The famine. The distress.

You know you're being lied to, don't you? Well not you Foxy. You obviously don't know.

"Those of us who support a 2 state solution"
I've given up trying to educate poor Foxy on the uselessness of the two state solution meme. Even after I showed her idol, Hilary, pointing out that the Arabs habitually reject two states, Foxy just carries on regards. Immune to the facts. Immune to history. But if you've got nothing else....

mhaze,

Civilian deaths in Gaza will stop when the Zionist stop murdering innocent civilians. Its not rocket science mhaze, but it might be for you. Just as a matter of interest how many dead women and children in Gaza is an acceptable number to you. If you haven't got an exact number, you can say, as many as the Zionist want to murder, or can say, all of them.

I can understand why the likes of you are against a two state solution. Yep, one state for the Zionists, and who is going to live in the other state? After all its clear what you believe should happen to the Palestinians.

AND, the point of you pic, well it looks like what it said; BUT you might think it proves the "big lie" and the Palestinians are really well off at the hands of the Zionists, no pal not the 30,000 plus who have been murdered thus far. Just as the Nazis showed the world how well they were looking after the Jews in Auschwitz. Propaganda can do wonders, don't you agree?

Dear Paul,

«Civilian deaths in Gaza will stop when the Zionist stop murdering innocent civilians.»

When have you last seen a Zionist?
Are you really that old?

Zionism fulfilled its mission and ended with the creation of the state of Israel, in 1948.

There are three cohorts who still speak of Zionism even in the 21st century:

1) Messianic Jews and their supporters - because they do not accept the secular-liberal state of Israel as it is, instead claiming that they are the *real* Zionists who are working towards a theocratic Israel ruled by their King=Messiah.

2) Ultra-Orthodox Jews who see themselves as "Palestinians", also not recognising the secular state of Israel, derogatively calling its citizens "Zionists" and wishing to live instead under Arab-Palestinian rule.

3) Those who never accepted the existence of Israel, therefore claiming that it was never created thus the people that live there must still be 'Zionists'.

Which of these is yours?

"Civilian deaths in Gaza will stop when the Zionist stop murdering innocent civilians. "

Paul it seems is in favour of a system where Hamas terrorists are allowed to rape, murder, kidnap and execute Israeli women and children and, so long as they can find a burqa to hide behind, be left unscathed. Ready for the next bout of rape, murder, kidnap and execution.

Now Paul might be in favour of Israel turning the other cheek, but no society which wants to survive can accept such a situation. Israel won't.

" Just as a matter of interest how many dead women and children in Gaza is an acceptable number to you"

No number is acceptable. That's why I advocate Hamas surrendering immediately, to stop the carnage. Are you in favour of that Paul? Thought not.

"I can understand why the likes of you are against a two state solution. "

Its not just me. The so-called Palestinians are also opposed to it which is why they've rejected Israeli's offer for a state 5 times in the past 70 years. But you don't want that to be true, therefore it isn't.

"AND, the point of you pic, well it looks like what it said; "

A people who are under daily stress of imminent death and on the brink of famine (or already in a famine depending on who you beleive), don't go down to the beach for a pleasant Sunday afternoon dip.

An interesting juxtaposition:

Israel finds the bodies of murdered hostages under buildings controlled by the UN.

Thereafter the UN demands Israel stops looking and leave the area.

Not that they're trying to hide anything!

It is unfortunate that anti-Semitism charges are
levelled against anyone who criticizes Israel's
policies and treatment of Palestinians. Equating
this issue with hating people.

People who've criticized Stalin, Putin, or the Soviet
regime did not hate Russians. People who criticized
Hitler did not hate Germans. People who criticized
the actions of British colonialism did not hate the
British people. Criticism of American policies did not
equate with hatred of Americans.

And the list goes on.

We're all aware, or should be, of anti-Semitic history.
How the Jewish people have suffered at the hands of others
for centuries. And of course we must not be silent when
people of any faith are attacked or demeaned.

But this does not excuse the oppressed of history wielding
the power of the oppressors.

We should stand against the state of Israel today - due to
PM Netanyahu's tactics - which have been to disenfranchise
a segment of the citizenship in the region.

Both institutional and physical violence against the
Palestinians must be condemned. Israel's anti-Arab
administration requires denouncement.

But lets be clear. Standing against Israel does not mean
that we should stand with Hamas . They also have
fallen short off the mark. In our analysis, we need to also
be able to criticize their actions.

Hopefully the ICC's arrest warrants will bring some
positive results for both sides. Things cannot continue
as they have to date - with impunity.

Putin's 'Free Palestine' Pledge Shocks Israel; Russia Rejects Netanyahu's Objection
Russia recognises Palestinian statehood
http://youtu.be/CWN_pCBl-SM

The United States is a declining world power, and is losing influence in the M/E.
China mediated the peace between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Russia and China are gaining influence in Africa and with global south nations.
And the world backs Palestinian statehood.

BRICS is the first time the western monetary system has been seriously challenged, and many countries are lining up to join.
There will be a BRICS summit in Kazan in October under Russian chairmanship.

Israel would probably like to try and start a world war.

"Paul it seems is in favour of a system where Hamas terrorists are allowed to rape, murder, kidnap and execute Israeli women and children and, so long as they can find a burqa to hide behind, be left unscathed. Ready for the next bout of rape, murder, kidnap and execution."

What is that exactly, an 'Anti-Semite guilt trip'?

You lot accuse us of being Jew-haters when we don't agree with your crap narrative and then stoop to using low-blow guilt trips.
What a sad and pathetic saga.
Begging for attention, the lowest form of human behavior.

Also, I think you might be mistaking the Palestinians for the Israelis, in your rant.
The Israelis have killed far more innocent Palestinians;
hostile lunatic settlers are killing Palestinians all the time with the help of IOF, so no-one really cares about your claimed statistics.

You make 'claims' about Palestinian aggression which may or may not be true, whilst having blinkers-on about the ethnic cleansing for land theft that continues every single day unabated.

Some of us believe their will be no chance of an end to the hostilities until the Palestinians have a state of their own.

I thought the right to self-determination was a western approved ideal.
There's no provision that requires they must 'love their neighbour'.

The things Israel does we call 'bad actors'.
WTF is the world even tolerating this ongoing occupation.

America might not be big and tough enough to defend Israel forever.
And America itself will start to have a hard time defending the idea of an apartheid state.
It doesn't align with American ideals.

Prof. Yossi Mekelberg writes on the Israel-Palestinian
conflict's chance to end the cycle of conflict:

http://chathamhouse.org/publications/the-world-today/2024-02/israel-palestine-chance-end-cycle-conflict

"You make 'claims' about Palestinian aggression which may or may not be true,"

Despite the overwhelming evidence, AC wants to believe 7 October didn't happen and if you want hard enough it becomes true. As George Costanza said..."its not a lie if you believe it".

So AC, are you in favour of a system when any terrorist is free of any consequences so long as they can find a women or child to hide behind?

Do you dispute that the so-called Palestinians have rejected a state of their own on multiple occasions, where that state doesn't deliver them control of the entire area between the river and the sea?

Unfortunately both sides don't trust each other and
will only negotiate on their on terms and conditions.

as Prof. Mekelberg points out - it is a hopeless situation
until both sides meet each other half way. It would be
helpful if the US lessened its support - and insisted that
both come to the table, look each other in the eye and
negotiate. But that doesn't look like happening any time
soon. The US with elections coming up is not interested
in applying pressure.

The ICC may be the only hope.

Dear Foxy,

«The ICC may be the only hope.»

The only hope for whom?

Do you seriously believe that a criminal on the run, a mass-murderer who would never even listen to his own people, is going to listen to some foreign entity?

What if this war never stops because the parties to it both want to continue fighting - will you allow yourself to be personally miserable because of that?

A mother addressing the UN over evidence her son's body was taken back to Gaza as a prize by a UN employee.

http://x.com/OliLondonTV/status/1794827064274456616

It seems increasingly obvious why the UN wants the war to end on terms favourable to Hamas.

I think we can all agree that we want this conflict to
stop. I am still hopeful that the ICC will be able to
achieve this through pressure world-wide and possibly
with the help of the US - were it to apply sanctions.

I know I may be clinging at straws here - but dear Yuyutsu,
if it's "God's will" as President Reagan would have said -
it will happen.

Don't lose hope.

Dear Foxy,

Yes, everything is by God's will:

Will you happily accept God's decisions whether for peace or for war (or for anything in between)?

The Zionist corralled innocent women and children on a pretext into a supposed "safe haven tent camp" in the Tal al-Sultan neighbourhood of Rafah, before unleashing fire bombing on the camp, burning to death over 100 innocent people including 35 children. There is clear documented evidence/photographs of the camp on fire.

At least the Nazi's gassed the Jews before burning their bodies!

Dear Paul,

«The Zionist corralled innocent women and children...«

It looks like you believe in ghosts!

Eewww... I just saw footage of what appeared to be a Palestinian running around with a headless baby.
It has a 'slightly' staged feel about it, I can't really be sure if it's genuine or not.

http://x.com/WarMonitors/status/1794819207840043427

Hi Yuyutsu,

I choose to label these war criminals as Zionists, I want to separate them from the decent Israeli people, who in my opinion are not war criminals. Just as the innocent Palestinian people are not the Hamas war criminals of October 7th. Just as we labelled those that murdered millions in gas chambers Nazi's and not Germans.

Answer this for me; What sort of animal would use planes loaded with incendiary bombs to attack and burn to death innocent children. I call them Zionists, if you want to call them Teddy Bears, that's your choice.

Hi Paul,
It appears the 'decapitated child' event I posted about above relates to the incident you just referred to.

Different tweet but same video as above
http://x.com/AnasAlSharif0/status/1794814878479470815
"Breaking: Dozens of casualties have resulted from an Israeli airstrike on displaced persons' tents near UNRWA warehouses northwest of Rafah."

Israeli military seems to have a need to inflict terror and punishment upon the Palestinians collectively.

"Yes, everything is by God's will:
Will you happily accept God's decisions whether for peace or for war (or for anything in between)?"

Hi Yuyutsu,
I tend to think differently, on account of man having free will.
If man didn't have free-will then there would be no such thing as 'sins'
If man has free will then how can everything be attributed to god, even say for example atrocities against children?

I don't see these dead kids being the result of 'Gods will'.
- I believe the causes of their deaths to be the result of 'Mans will'.

I do not believe that such acts are God's doing. (If he/she/it indeed exists)
Do you believe God would support the harm and suffering of innocent children?
Maybe its just my own beliefs, but I believe that God (if he/she/it exists) is 'good over evil ' light over darkness' love over hate'.
I'm not sure I can believe that 'God's Will' can be attributed to such horrible things that man has committed against his fellow man himself.

Yuyutsu,

God told us to love others as ourselves.
We have free will. So when we bully, cheat, or kill
it's our choice. And we ultimately reap what we
sow.

Dear Critic,

I appreciate your sincere contemplation about God and free will.

To answer your questions adequately would require depth and time, and therefore patience - do you have this patience?

In brief, we can look at reality from different levels.

There is the level of dreams: they are very convincing while we are there, asleep, and we believe everything there to be real. There too we experience a kind of free will, there too we occasionally experience cruelty and suffering, but when we wake up we realise that it was only a dream and laugh at our foolishness in believing the contents of our dream to be real.

Then there is the level of the world - the transactional level which we think of as objective because in it we can transact consistently with others through our senses. Here too we experience free will, cruelty and suffering. Our experiences here can be described as more solid than in our dreams - but this too is not the ultimate reality, this too can be likened to a dream compared with the ultimate reality, which is God.

The ultimate reality (or God) cannot be described in words, because words belong in the transactional level. God does not exist or operate in this world just as you, the dreamer, do not exist or operate as a character in your dreams - yet the world can be described as God's creation just as your dreams can be described as your creations, and the world can be said to operate by God's will in the sense that your dreams operate in accordance to the will of their dreamer.

Individual free will and sinfulnesss, pleasure and pain, good and evil, light and darkness, love and hate, the magnificent and the horrible, they all exist - it would be foolish to claim them not to, but their existence is only relative, relative to this intermediate level of reality which we call "world". The world is made of pairs of opposites and once we wake up from it remembering who we really are, those opposites become laughable.

Dear Paul,

«Answer this for me; What sort of animal would use planes loaded with incendiary bombs to attack and burn to death innocent children. I call them Zionists, if you want to call them Teddy Bears, that's your choice.»

I will go along with your suggestion:

Suppose we already established that an innocent child died.
Suppose we already established that s/he was burned to death.
Suppose we already established that s/he was burned by an incendiary bomb that was dropped from a plane.

Teddy Bears are indeed terrible animals that better go extinct, yet:

How can one distinguish whether the plane which dropped the bomb was operated by a Teddy Bear, or by a pilot who obeyed their order to drop that bomb based on intelligence that there is/are dangerous terrorist(s) below, but only on the strict condition that they see no children there, which they indeed searched for but failed to find (perhaps because the children were deliberately well hidden nearby the terrorists)?

Dear Foxy,

«God told us to love others as ourselves.
We have free will. So when we bully, cheat, or kill
it's our choice. And we ultimately reap what we
sow.»

Thank you for your true words, so please allow me to rephrase:

So long as we subjectively experience having a free will,
we also subjectively experience the painful fruits of misusing it to bully, cheat or kill.

Re: the Tel Al-Sultan fire....Just by way of context, not that Paul will understand.

Hamas set up a military base on the edge of the refugee encampment. Israel hit that legitimate target. As a result of the air strike, fires broke out within the encampment causing the claimed deaths.

Its a war crime to base troops within civilian areas to use them as human shields. I don't expect Hamas to be called out by the UN for that from rather obvious reasons.

Just a continuation of the claim that Hamas can perpetrate whatever atrocity it likes with immunity so long as they can find a kid or a burqa to hide behind.

BTW Hamas, that well-known peace-loving bunch of knock-abouts, fired dozens of rockets into Tel Aviv overnight, from that well-known peace-haven of Rafah. I wonder where they got all the wherewithal for the rockets. It seems that humanitarian aid can't get through but military aid is no problem. The things people will fall for.

"Yes, everything is by God's will:"

Two thousand killed in mud slide in PNG. Buried alive in the middle of the night.

If that's your God's will, then he/she is a maniac.

Thank you mhaze for clearing that all up for us, with that report of yours from Zionist News. BTW, Poland started WWII THEY INVADED GERMANY! Didn't you read that also in Nazi News?

The undisputed fact is 35 children were burned to death by the use of incendiary bombs supplied by that other nation well known for its use of napalm and chemical weapons, United States of America, and their war criminal leader Biden.

mhaze, as a Zionist apologists you take the cake!

Paul,

So no evidence that what I wrote was wrong? You just don't want it to be true, therefore it isn't. Pretty standard Paul there. Evidence? we don't need no stinking evidence. http://youtu.be/Dln7yj8MDWE

BTW, after firing rockets into Israel yesterday, I wonder if they then went and had a pleasant afternoon dip in the Mediterranean.

I know most of you haven't got the stomach to read all if this, but if you do, make sure you get to the final paragraph.

"Jewish Author Delivers Blistering Response When Forced to Answer Where She Stands on “Israeli-Palestinian Conflict” Before Scheduled Speaking Event"

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/05/jewish-author-delivers-blistering-response-when-asked-where/

Dear Mhaze,

«Two thousand killed in mud slide in PNG. Buried alive in the middle of the night.

If that's your God's will, then he/she is a maniac.»

You too, sir/madam, unless you never had any havoc and disasters in the dreams you created and keep creating every night.

Yuyutsu,

You wrote:

"So long as we subjectively experience a free will,
we also subjectively experience the painful fruits of
misusing it to bully, cheat, or kill."

Fortunately, not everyone uses their free will to
those ends.

There is an African proverb that reads:

"When there is no enemy within, the enemy outside can
do no harm."

It's a great quote, and says a lot in so few words.

Watching the news this morning is so disheartening.

Israel continues its relentless attack on Rafah
despite the International Court of Justice (ICJ)
ordering it to put an end to the military operation
there and multiple deaths reported from Central and
Northern Gaza which have been subjected to renewed
attacks.

Nearly 36,000 Palestinians have been killed and vast
swaths of Gaza has been flatted by Israeli carpet bombing.

"Be sure: Israel will not stop this madness until WE
make it stop. Member states must impose sanctions,
arms embargo and suspend diplomatic political relations
with Israel until it ceases its assault."
Francesca Albanese posted on X.

Francesca Albanese is an Italian lawyer and academic. On
the 1st May 2022 she was appointed UN Special Rapporteur on
the occupied Palestinian Territories for a three year term.
She is the first woman appointed to that job.

At a time when the people of Gaza are staring down famine -
this nighmare needs to end.

"At a time when the people of Gaza are staring down famine "

Yep, we're told that they've been staring down famine since 8 October last. Famine is always imminent and never quite happens. Surprisingly, some still fall for that story. Still, the claims have led to massive amounts of new funds flowing into the hands of the UN, so mission accomplished.

I wonder if those Palestinians who managed to take a pleasant afternoon dip in the Med are staring down famine

"You too, sir/madam [its sir], unless you never had any havoc and disasters in the dreams you created and keep creating every night."

I don't dream of disasters or havoc. And if I did I don't have the power to make those dreams a reality, unlike your deity.

NB: I don't actually think the deity (as opposed to YOUR deity) wills these disasters and therefore I don't think he/she/it is a maniac. I was just pointing out that those who reflexively think the deity can and does will these disasters have to explain to themselves why said deity isn't a maniac.

The International Committee of the Red Cross, the
World Food Programme, and many other humanitarian
organizations have stated that people in Gaza
are "literally starving to death as we speak."

The situation is dire. The evidence is there as those
who work and report to the world have testified.
Gaza is virtually unliveable.

The Zionist military spokesperson on the news this morning, refutes the mhaze claim that; "Hamas set up a military base on the edge of the refugee encampment. Israel hit that legitimate target. As a result of the air strike, fires broke out within the encampment causing the claimed deaths." No,no,no, mhaze, the military spokesperson (the Zionists regular mouth) said Israeli intelligence had "identified" two senior Hamas figures within the camp, and had "targeted" them, but unfortunately it all went up in smoke, and 35 children were burnt to death. Netanyahu basically said about the incident, tut tut, stiff cheese, you win some you lose some, end of story, move on, next target.

Nearly every country on the planet, including Australia, excepting United States, has condemned this Zionist atrocity. Some calling it a war crime!

"The International Committee of the Red Cross, the World Food Programme, and many other humanitarian organizations"

Yes Foxy, every organisation that is soliciting funds for themselves are saying what needs to be said in order to extract those funds from the gullible.

Yet we fail to see documentary evidence of this famine which never quite arrives. We don't see Biafran type kids with distended stomachs. We don't see skeletal patients. Instead we see people who are so unconcerned about where their next meal is coming from that they are happy to go down to the Mediterranean shore for a Sunday afternoon frolic. We see pictures of captured terrorists forced to strip to show they aren't hiding bombs and looking like the 'before' picture in a Weight Watchers advert.

"have stated that people in Gaza are "literally starving to death as we speak."

Who you gunna believe. Those with a vested interest in pushing the famine story over and over or your lying eyes.

http://amnestyusa.org/press-releases/israeli-air-strikes-that-killed-44-civilians-further-evidence-of-war-crimes-new-investigation/#

Ah those lying eyes of so many.

mhaze,

Here's more on those "lying eyes":

http://instagram.com/eid_yara/p/C34L9MLofSA/

http://reuters.com/default/gaza-starving-children-fill-hospital-wards-famine-looms-2024-03-19/

There's more:

http://reuters.com/pictures/fear-famine-grows-gaza-emaciated-children-seen-hospitals-2024-03-05/?utm_source=reddit.com#

Come on you Palestinians, you're letting the side down. mhaze wants to see "Biafran type kids with distended stomachs...skeletal patients" otherwise he's not going to believe there is a humanitarian crises in Gaza. mhaze your lack of humanity is starling, like other far right fanatics you simply regurgitate Zionist propaganda. AND I proved you wrong, claiming a "Hamas military base" next to the Tal al-Sultan camp, there was no such base there at all, and that's according to the Zionist military spokesperson, speaking a short time ago!

Hi Foxy, our number one Trumpster, believes its all a gigantic conspiracy. Maybe he believes its all been orchestrated by the Vatican with the communist Pope as the lead conspirator. What do you say mhaze.

Dear Foxy,

Be sure: Israel will stop this madness once the hostages are released.

It doesn't look like any external pressure could stop Israel, but all it would take is the release of ONE hostage - you heard it right: in previous negotiations, Israel agreed for an immediate cease-fire the moment the FIRST hostage is released.

The majority of Israelis no longer want this war - but none would accept the continued torture, rape and hunger of the remaining Israeli hostages, and nothing else in the world other than military pressure could save them. Hamas wouldn't even tell how many of them, let alone their names, are still alive. Will Hamas stop this madness? Maybe they are not as hungry as the hostages yet?

As for the tragic loss of life in Gaza, according to Israeli media, the fire was caused by a piece of shrapnel which hit a petrol tank where senior Hamas members stayed: it was not intentional.

This is a picture of famine...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--jvA033jDp0/WIpYzcTuTJI/AAAAAAABXI4/GURP4wVM29kpDx5mH0wI93duYD-NmFVzACLcB/s1600/SoOre5f.jpg

This is a picture of propaganda...
http://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/2ABTKNDFERL6TDH4B5C6X25ABY.jpg?auth=c21774314220c66ff92b07456d5f7faf850ed452b03b591d26dad10f8e9b833c&width=1920&quality=80

hint: mothers of starving kids don't look like candidates for Sports Illustrated Plus size issue.

This is a picture of a poor kid with cerebral palsy being used for propaganda and fund-raising....

http://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/NVQVWEEUDZBRNE22NV46Q2UFPU.JPG?auth=9f11d4c029f0be56b09f45a544792a2bf81b991909eecc5711c8aada5b3b4935&width=720&quality=80

mhaze, you are clueless,

I see hungry people, Australians, several times a week, just yesterday 2 homeless guys, came in telling us they were hungry. Sure they didn't look like your picture, but never the less they were in need of a feed! In your sheltered world with your contented "blindness", you think starvation is something in remote parts of drought stricken Africa, well its not, its in Australia and Gaza as well!

Hi Paul, Yuyutsu,

Israel denies famine looms in Gaza but according to
Jeremy Bowen, BBC International Editor, the evidence
is overwhelming.

He tells us that the famine has been caused by the
siege Israel imposed just after the 7th October attacks.

At the time Israeli-Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said:

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There
will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is
closed."

"We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly."

Israel was forced by international pressure to allow in
limited supplies of aid. But over six months it hasn't been
anything like enough.

Israel has argued, inaccurately, that hunger in Gaza was
caused by Hamas stealing and stock piling aid and the UN's
failure to distribute what was left.

Close supporters of Israeli PM Netanyahu and his government
continue to deny there is a famine and any allegations
that Israel was starving civilians were anti-Israel
propaganda, or were based on anti-Semitism.

However, as Jeremy Bowen tells us - the evidence is
overwhelming.

Both Israel and Hamas have entrenched positions and have no
inclination to budge. As Bowen says - this is bad news for
everyone, especially Palestinian civilians in Gaza, and the
surviving Israeli hostages.

As of 14 Feb. 2024 112 hostages had been returned alive to
Israel, with 105 being released in a prisoner exchange deal,
4 released by Hamas unilaterally, and 3 rescued by the IDF.

http://bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68788140

http://trtworld.com/middle-east/boy-whose-pictures-showed-reality-of-gaza-famine-dies-under-israeli-siege-17231626

"Its a war crime to base troops within civilian areas to use them as human shields. I don't expect Hamas to be called out by the UN for that from rather obvious reasons."

That's somewhat reasonable.
We could go into the 'somewhat' if you like.

You want to know what is reasonable though?

That it's probably some kind of war crime or crime against humanity to target a UN designated safe zone for refugees with missiles and to burn several dozen children alive.

Fair's fair.

Hi AC,

It reminds me of Vietnam where the Americans targeted the villages, as the Viet Cong were "hiding out" in the villages. The trouble was the Viet Cong were the villages. No big army bases and flash uniforms like the Americans had, just peasants with old WWII guns.

I told you months ago about the ones 'who would die tomorrow'
I told you the ones who died today don't matter, well they matter but you can't bring them back.
- It's the ones who will die tomorrow, and it needn't be this way.
Right now these people are still alive, but tomorrow they won't be anymore.
What will the point of their deaths?

Well, in a few days time it'll be 'the day after tomorrow'.
Tomorrow will have came and went.

And all the people that die needlessly tomorrow who are still alive today won't matter anymore either, because they won't be coming back.

On and on it goes, day after day.

Hi Paul,
"The trouble was the Viet Cong were the villages."

One of the ways they mislead is to label them 'terrorists'.
Random made some good simple points when he was here that it's easier to kill them without a trial.

A criminal would require a fair trail.
Use of the word 'terrorist' essentially invokes a murder spree.
- And Israel becomes the terrorist itself, if it wasn't always a terrorist state from day one already.

'Terrorist' gives one a sense similar to what one might think in this statement:
'a group of terrorists are hiding out in the building with hostages'
With that statement we would see these 'Hamas' people as enemies - and the hostages could be us;

It's a different kind of situation in Palestine, sure Israel and the West labels Hamas as terrorists, (but many nations do not) but inside Gaza Hamas are not terrorists of the people, they are largely supported by the people.

Really, they are 'terrorists' for standing up to America and Israel for their own interests just as much as they are terrorists for committing atrocities against Israel and Israelis.

But FYI, on the 'atrocity' front, it's obvious to everyone that Israel has a far bigger rap-sheet.

"But FYI, on the 'atrocity' front, it's obvious to everyone that Israel has a far bigger rap-sheet."

- To argue against that statement is to argue:

The NAZIs who managed security at the concentration camps suffered far worse conditions than the Jews in the camps themselves.
- Which would be a 'completely ludicrous' statement.

Israel just wants to blame and punish the Palestinians for refusing to bend the knee.
And the whole entire thing is just ethnic cleansing for an apartheid state engaged in land theft.

"I see hungry people..."

Wow Paul almost, but not quite, got it. Yes there are people in Gaza who haven't got more than a day or two stock of food and who don't quite know where there new supplies will come from. You might have noticed there is a war going on and in war, supply chains collapse, especially if their own government sees starvation of its people as a propaganda coup.

But hunger isn't a famine. "According to the United Nations World Food Programme, famine is declared when malnutrition is widespread, and when people have started dying of starvation through lack of access to sufficient, nutritious food."

But no one can find instances of widespread malnutrition or death by starvation.

"The Integrated Food Security Phase Classification criteria define Phase 5 famine of acute food insecurity as occurring when:

* At least 20% of households in an area face extreme food shortages with a limited ability to cope; and
* The prevalence of acute malnutrition in children exceeds 30%; and
* The death rate exceeds two people per 10,000 people per day."

Does any of that apply in Gaza? The only honest answer (and I appreciate we aren't likely to get honest answers from the likes of Foxy and AC) is no.

But they want to call it famine because of the emotive appeal it carries.

It helps in the efforts to save Hamas from destruction. It helps in the efforts to hide the complicity of the UN in perpetuating the terrorist state Hamas has created. It helps in the fund raising efforts of the so-called NGOs.

But famine it ain't.

So they use the word 'famine' to describe something that clearly isn't a famine. Because the aim is to denigrate the Jewish state.

And they use the word genocide to describe something that clearly isn't a genocide. Even worse they want to call what's going on in Gaza a genocide when they actively sought to avoid that term when it was appropriately used to describe actions of groups they favour.

AC sought to justify the Uighur genocide. Not minimise it. Not deny. Justify it as a good thing.
And Foxy likewise refused to describe the Uighur destruction as a genocide and favourably compared it to what was happening in Gaza BEFORE 7 October.

And we have people talking about this war as though its somehow different to every other war that's ever happened. Paul frets that there's hunger, as though the break-down in supply chains isn't part and parcel of wars.

Foxy claims that the destruction in Gaza is unprecedented which, in a thread full of historic ignorance, wins the prize of the most abysmally ignorant comment of all. Why call it unprecedented? Because of the need to make the actions of the Jewish state seem especially egregious.

They don't want to be labelled antisemitic. But when you inappropriately apply labels to the Jewish state that you refuse to apply to other nations who commit far worse acts, its antisemitic.

Sorry, but if the racist shoe fits...

Israel and its supporters follow the Hitler line -
no matter how big the lie, repeat it often enough and
the masses will after a while regard it as truth.

However, today, the evidence against these lies is
as the BBC's International Editor - Jeremy Bowen
testifies, and so many other
journalists, authors, human rights organizations, and people
who actually have seen for themselves and experienced
what's really going on - affirm - the lies are no longer
being swallowed verbatim except by the die-hard supporters.
Of which we also have examples in the Trump supporters - where
insanity rules.

If you have a strong emotional, rational, spiritual
balance, - then you cannot possibly support what is going on
in the Middle-East or try to justify it.

"Propaganda is to a democratic society what the bludgeon is
to a totalitarian state."
( Noam Chomsky).

When will enough be enough?

http://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-photos-964bcd9e90a42940e6044245cc2786f9

We can see from the comments on this discussion that
the horrific events that have unfolded in Israel
and Gaza have affected many of us.

There are those who've spoken out strongly in support
of Israel. There are those who are passionate advocates
for Palestine.

There are those who are trying to support both sides
or are unsure which side to support.

The situation is dire. No matter which side you take.

A two-state solution would be the answer. This has been
around for a long time. You'd think that standing
for the right of Israelis to live in safety and security
in a Jewish State would not be a big ask. And that neither
is the right of Palestinians to self-determination in a
State of their own.

Why is this so hard to achieve?

Why can't any obstacles be overcome?

On the Israeli side - it's the extremist settlers and
their supporters, who believe that Palestinians have no
right to govern any part of Israel. On the Palestinian side
it is Hamas and their supporters who are unable to tolerate
Jewish sovereignty anywhere between the Jordan River and
the Mediterranean Sea.

This makes the obstacles difficult to overcome. They're not
impossible but they must be done within the context of a
peace agreement.

Those of us who want this conflict to end - and I would assume
that this would be all of us, must surely see that putting
pressure on both sides by the major Western powers and
by member states of the United Nations would help towards
achieving peace. Also recognizing Palestine as a State would
help. A two-state solution is surely the answer.

Dear Foxy,

«Israel and its supporters follow the Hitler line»

Excuse me, I support Israel (though not its present government and only partly what it is presently doing) - are you saying that I follow the Hitler line?

Hi Foxy and Yuyutsu,

I understand how the innocent citizens under an authoritarian regime will be blamed for the horrific crimes of the regime. In Nazi Germany about 10% of the adult population joined the Nazi party, and the majority of them, not because of their political ideology, but often as a self protection measure in their employment, or their community, protection from actual fanatics. The Gestapo was never a huge organisation, but relied on informants to root out the disloyal. A neighbourhood dispute, say, over a dog, could result in a person being reported to the Gestapo as disloyal to the regime, and being arrested. Same in Stalinist Russia, the NKVD relied heavily on informants.

Yuyutsu,

If you support Israel and not it's current
government then I take it that you also support
a two-state solution.

And,

If we support Israel and a free Palestine we must
not only oppose the current Israeli government but we
must also oppose Hamas. It's the only way for this to end.
It's the only path towards ending this cycle of death.

"especially if their own government sees starvation of its people as a propaganda coup."
- I didn't realise the Palestinians were preventing aid deliveries.

"Because the aim is to denigrate the Jewish state."

denigrate! denigrate! denigrate!
- Oh sorry, 'Antisemitic? whoops, my mistake.
[Rolls eyes]
I told you I'm just not going to give support to state engaged in ethnic cleansing, land theft, imprisonment without charge, murder, executions, killing of kids, destroying homes etc, etc. etc.

Killing innocent people is wrong.
Just because the Palestinians killed some innocent Israelis doesn't make it right for the Israelis to go and kill tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians.

Israel is a terrorist state.

"And they use the word genocide"

Who the hell is 'they'?
I think for myself, and I make my own opinions and judgements

"something that clearly isn't a genocide"
ICJ voted 11-2, and the world sides with Palestine.

"AC sought to justify the Uighur genocide. Not minimise it. Not deny. Justify it as a good thing."
- That's not true.
I never acknowledged there was any genocide.
Do you have any evidence, or is it all just made up, as the west does.
And stupid people like you fall for it.

Lemme dig something up.
This is going to take about 10 minutes of your time.
EVERYONE OF YOU HERE SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO THIS
- Because of kind of haddit right now, for all this sillyness.

It's really about time I drove this point home.
It's really about time you people learned.
Watch these - a 2 min video and a 6 minute video.
Pay particular attention to the way they 'sell you the story'

Violent clashes in Georgia as 'Russia Law' passes parliament | ABC News
http://youtu.be/hMs6WQ5-78U

Georgian parliament approves 'foreign agent' bill, sparking more protests | The World
http://youtu.be/d-Hl9XXqCxM

You'll notice around the 3 and a half minute mark the woman spoke about 'US' and 'EU' interests.
- That's a hint at whats really going in.

Now listen for just 1 minute what a former member of the CIA says
http://youtu.be/SkIzqa5-J4I?t=590

Now, what you all need to understand is that the good things we take pride in democracy in, like the right to protest;

These are the exact tools the West uses to overthrow other countries.
Free Press? They'll use that to show a leader they want removed in a bad light.

And what your democracy is - is just a tool of western imperialism.
And 'terrorists', well a lot of them are just the people who didn't want to go along with the United States overthrows of their countries.

"AC sought to justify the Uighur genocide. Not minimise it. Not deny. Justify it as a good thing."
[Rolls eyes]
Your 'Uighurs' - was actually western sponsored Islamic terrorist uprising, and the Chinese had to take measures to stop the violence and restore order.

That's not saying I love the Chinese.
That's just saying I don't support the West deliberately causing foreign civil-unrest and overthrows.
I don't really support involvement in other nations internal affairs.

You'll see the news right in front of you
But they aren't telling you the full story.

The reason they run around screaming democracy! democracy in a slightly strange manner;
- Is because democracy is the tool for US imperialism and overthrows.
It's not about what the people want.

We think it's the best system for us to rule ourselves.
But really it's the best system for a nation to be taken over and ruled over by foreigners.
- Without a single shot being fired.

And, relying on the US for defense means being subservient to US foreign policy.

"NKVD relied heavily on informants"

I think in Gaza they are deliberately staving them so they are desperate and more amenable to giving up info.
Staving the Palestinians gives the Israeli's a leg-up to essentially create desperate Palestinians who are more willing to inform on their own.

Dear Foxy,

«If you support Israel and not it's current
government then I take it that you also support
a two-state solution.»

I would indeed support it wholeheartedly if the so-called "Palestinians" genuinely wanted (or at least agreed) to have their own state, side by side with Israel.

I pray that happens and if it does, then it would be one of the best boons Israel could ever hope for - far better for example than that criminal Messiah arriving to establish a reign of terror over it...

«If we support Israel and a free Palestine we must
not only oppose the current Israeli government but we
must also oppose Hamas.»

True. I oppose both.

There is a glimmer of hope in a two-state solution.
We need to spread this message world-wide.

We may be feeling over-whelmed at the moment
by this conflict. Overwhelmed by the challenges and
obstacles.

Let us remind ourselves to take things in our stride and
tackle each hurdle, one step at a time.

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".

AC wrote:" Do you have any evidence, or is it all just made up, as the west does."

Oh noes thinks I. Now I'll have to spend ten minutes finding the post(s) where AC attempted to justify the Uighur genocide.

But then he did it for me....
"Your 'Uighurs' - was actually western sponsored Islamic terrorist uprising, and the Chinese had to take measures to stop the violence and restore order."

Apparently wiping out one Islamic terrorist group is okey-dokey when the CCP does it, and a crime against humanity when those evil Joos do it. But don't say that's antisemitic, nosireee

And while AC stopped to swap the foot in his mouth, he wrote....

"And stupid people like you fall for it."

The dill who fell for the Lavrov Russian language story has no place talking about stupid people falling for it, whatever it is.

"Same in Stalinist Russia, the NKVD relied heavily on informants."

Around 5% of the population of East Germany were informers for the Stasi. Mothers informing on fathers, fathers on mothers, kids on parents (the Stasi excelled in tricking kids into that). Neighbours. Work colleges. Complaining about having to stand in a queue while standing in a queue was a life-threatening activity.

Of course, these attitudes aren't limited to totalitarian regimes. There is a subset of humanity who just love dobbing in those who act differently to themselves. During the lockdowns, any number of informers were anxious to report non mask wearers, those exercising contrary to government dictates or those flouted stay at home rules. And the government encouraged such activity...to its shame and the shame of the informers.

Even today we have people in parts of NSW who are forced to have signage in their yards if they use boar or tank water, to stop the Mrs. Kravitz, (http://youtu.be/Ojc7ioTZJ2g) of this world from informing on them for flouting water restrictions.

"Apparently wiping out one Islamic terrorist group is okey-dokey when the CCP does it, and a crime against humanity when those evil Joos do it. But don't say that's antisemitic, nosireee"

You people are so messed up.
If a Jew got a flat tyre, you people would be calling the nail or screw anti-semitic.
You'd probably even label the tyre itself anti-semitic for daring to smite the Jew.
This is the type of twisted mentality you entertain.

You'll never beat me, and you know why?
Because ethics not religion is the basis of my moral compass.
- Unlike you who supports genocide and ethnic cleansing.
(unfortunately)

One situation is 'Palestinians' fighting against a murderous occupation and I support their efforts to have a state of their own.

If Israel doesn't like the situation it should state it's borders and stop it's weasel-like land theft and IOF assisted settler attacks on Palestinians.

The other situation is western sponsored Islamic terrorists trying to destabilise the West's adversary China.

When did the CCP bomb thousands of innocent Uighurs?
We've actually all seen Israel on a murderous rampage engaging in collective punishment of innocents and deliberate targeting of journalists which, in the latter example proves Israel was willfully engaged in wrongdoing.
Israels heyday is over, and they've no-one to blame but themselves.
Go have a cry or something, while the rest of us more humane than yourself remain indignant about dead women and kids.

FFS, Oct 7 was ONE DAY
Israels been murdering innocents on masse for nearly 9 months.
We all urged Israel to stop and not go down this path but it did anyway, so don't whinge when Israel is now detested for it's actions globally held accountable in the worlds eyes by the ICC.

Your 'anti-semitic' problem;
- IS THAT YOU THINK ISRAEL SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH MURDER.

'the Stasi excelled in tricking kids into that'

Is that where we learned from?

Police officer in Grade 3 classroom holding a bong:

"Have any of you kids ever seen one of these before?"

"Do your parents have one by chance?"

No-one was talking about a Palestinian State on Oct 6.
And Israel wasn't a global pariah facing scrutiny by the ICC

Reap what you sow.

Hamas has told mediators it would not take part if Israel
would not stop its war on Gaza.

Talks led by key mediators Qatar, Egypt, and the United
States to arrange a ceasefire have repeatedly stalled
with both sides blaming the other for the lack of
progress.

Now another attempt is being made and the US is asking
both sides to come to an agreement. Hamas has told the
mediators that if the occupation stops its war and
aggression against the people in Gaza they are ready to
reach a complete agreement that includes a comprehensive
exchange deal.

The ball is now in Israel's court. Israel has rejected
previous Hamas demands. Will it do the same this time?

Foxy, it does not matter what agreement is made, Hamas will turn up
with another name and start it all again.
It is in the religion. Islamists are required to kill Jews and
forcibly if necessary submit the rest of the world to Islam.

It really is that simple and is the reason the Two State Solution
will never work, even if accepted by Moslems.
It is accepted in the Koran to make agreements that you have no
intention of keeping if it is for the advantage of Islam.

That is it, no ifs no buts !

Bezza,

I think your knowledge of Islam is next to zero, and your outlandish claims that "you know" all there is to know on the subject is suspect at best. BTW, where did you actually study in depth the Islamic religion, or do you just regurgitate far right bias/propaganda you're pick up on. One thing is for certain, Muslim beliefs are as varied as those of Christianity, neither group are homogeneous in their beliefs as you would have us believe.

Bezza,

Sadly, the Israeli government under Netanyahu is unwilling
to give up its control and its occupation. It's only
willing to do anything on its own terms. Unless the US
and the world stop giving money and arms and support to
Israel things will not change.

You need to move on from consistently blaming Islam.
That's just as foolish as blaming Judaism for the actions
of the Israeli government.

Israeli minister Benny Gantz who was the Israeli War
Cabinet Minister has resigned from Prime Minister's
Benjamin Netanyahu's government.

Gantz has repeatedly clashed with Mr Netanyahu over
post war plans for Gaza.

Mr Netanyahu will now have to rely more heavily on his
ultra-nationalist extremist colleagues.

In a televised address Mr Gantz said Netanyahu was -
"preventing us from advancing toward true victory."

Benny Gantz is the leader of the centrist National Unity
Alliance. He joined the government led by Netanyahu shortly
after the Oct 7th attack by Hamas - saying it was in the
national interest to do so. Gentz then joined Netanyahu's
War Cabinet.

Gantz is a former army commander and defence minister in the
previous government. His decision to leave Netanyahu's
government has been expected for some time.

Last month Gantz presented Netanyahu with a June 8th dead
line to come up with a clear strategy for post war Gaze.

Netanyahu will now have to rely more heavily on the backing
of extremists - the ultra nationalists. The prospects for a
ceasefire appear to be limited.

Dear Foxy,

Yes, I am well aware of these facts and it is most realistic for Gantz to become Israel's next prime minister.

Just why do you grant that beast Netanyahu the human honorific "Mr"?

Or is it short for "Monster"?

Yuyutsu,

It's my upbringing.

"Mr", "Mrs", "Ms," "Dr", are all formal ways of address.

Did anyone notice the 4 Israeli hostages rescued were in surprisingly good condition, after 8 months captivity, someones been looking after them, not so the over 200 dead Palestinians murdered to achieve that, mostly women and children.

Hamas have welcomed the UNSC Ceasefire Agreement, that's something, the Israelis are less enthusiastic, after all the true agenda of the Zionist far right, is the total annihilation of all Palestinians and the creation of a Pan-Jewish state in the region, with no state called Palestine.

One sticking point for the Far Right Zionist is a proposal for the rebuilding of post war Gaza, something they don't want to happen.

Hi Paul,

It's up to the people in Israel to draw the line in
the sand and once and for all tell it's current
government - "Enough."

Surely this can't continue to go on.

Dear Paul,

«Did anyone notice the 4 Israeli hostages rescued were in surprisingly good condition, after 8 months captivity, someones been looking after them»

They were much better than expected because they were, unlike most hostages, held above ground by a Gazan family and not down in the tunnels like most where they don't even get enough oxygen.

Nevertheless, according to the doctor who checked them they were beaten daily, they were malnourished and lost lots of muscle. They did not receive proteins and vitamins and unlike the woman, the three men were never allowed out in the sun for getting vital vitamin D.

«not so the over 200 dead Palestinians murdered to achieve that, mostly women and children.»

Perhaps half of them were Hamas operatives.
Only a few were killed during the release operation itself - most were shot later, when the engine of the rescuers' escape-truck was hit by Hamas bullets so they got stuck and could not continue to withdraw safely. At that time, Israel had to apply a massive firewall to prevent Hamas from getting to them, which they tried, so everyone in between was also shot.

Wouldn't you do the same for your own family, if you could, should they be stuck like that in a hostile territory?

«Hamas have welcomed the UNSC Ceasefire Agreement»

No, they said they do, but added so many significant caveats that the agreement they welcomed is not the original one.

«the Israelis are less enthusiastic»

Most Israelis are - Netanyahu is not.

«after all the true agenda of the Zionist far right, is the total annihilation of all Palestinians and the creation of a Pan-Jewish state in the region»

Yes, disgusting indeed, but they are only about 12% of Israeli citizens... and well, they are not truly Zionists, they want to replace Israel with their own version of a "Jewish state", such that the original Zionists would have preferred to remain in exile.

Dear Paul,

It was further revealed today that the hostages were, as punishment, wrapped in blankets in extremely hot days.
The doctor explained that their initial good looks was due to the rush of adrenalin upon their release.

" For 16 years, Israel's illegal blockade has made
Gaza the world's biggest open-air-prison. The
international community must act now to prevent it
becoming a giant graveyard."

( Agnes Callamard, Amnesty International's
Secretary-General).

http://amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/

«For 16 years, Israel's illegal blockade has made
Gaza the world's biggest open-air-prison.»

Can prisoners come in and out of their prison to travel and study overseas, also have overseas visitors come and stay with them?

- Gazans did, at least their leaders.

Can prisoners bring into their prisons an enormous amount of weapons and ammunition, including long-distance rockets and their launchers, then even manufacture their own rockets in prison? Can they even regularly shoot these rockets outside their prison?

- Gazans did, at least their leaders.

Can prisoners dig kilometres of tunnels deep under their prison, including attack tunnels meant for sneaking up through them to kill civilians outside? Also build gliders to fly and attack outside their prison? Also train and equip divers to swim, land and attack on outside shores?

- Gazans did, at least their leaders.

Do you still call them "prisoners", those poor fellows whose freedom to kill, rape, kidnap and torture Israelis was a little disturbed?

Yuyutsu,

Israeli Prime Minster's approach to Palestinians:

"Beat them up, not once
but repeatedly, beat them up so
it hurts so badly, until it's unbearable."

Israeli Deputy Defence Minister Rabbi Eli Ben Dahan:

"Palestinians" are beasts.
They are not human."

Former Israeli Deputy PM - Eli Yishai urges the army to:

"Send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister said:

"If I was an Arab leader, I would not sign an agreement
with Israel. It is normal. We have taken their country.
It is true God promised it to us but how could that interest
them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism,
the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault?
They see but one thing, we have come and we have stolen
their country. Why would they accept that?"

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves,
politically we are the agressors and they defend themselves."

Israel's policies toward the Palestinian people range from
1948. Palestinians have had centuries of military
occupation and discrimination by the regime governing
Palestinians and the current assaults on Gaza as well as
Israeli statements expressed against the Palestinians on
the elimination of Palestinians have made prominent
scholars of International Law of Genocide and Human Rights
take a stand against Israel.

Yuyutsu,

Israeli historian Ilan Pappe writes:

"We all deserve a better ending to the story of the
Holocaust. This could involve a strong
multi-cultural Germany showing the way to the rest
of Europe, an American society dealing bravely
with the racial crimes that still
resonate today, an Arab world that expunges its
barbarism and inhumanity."

However Prof. Pappe says that "Nothing like that could
happen if we continue to fall into the trap of treating
mythologies as truths. Palestine was not empty and
the Jewish people had homelands. Palestine was not
"redeemed" and its people were dispossessed in 1948,
rather than leaving voluntarily."

"Colonized people, even under the UN Charter, have the
right to struggle for their liberation, even with an army,
and the successful ending to such a struggle lies in the
creation of a democratic state that includes all of its
inhabitants."

We can only live and hope that this will one day happen
sooner rather than later.

Dear Foxy,

You are already aware of my views toward the present Israeli government - may they all (other than Yoav Gallant, who is still there by accident and is likely to soon be sacked) perish soon and rot in hell.

As for Ben Gurion, he did not believe a word of what he said: how could he claim "It is true God promised it to us" when he never even believed in God?! - Thus we need to find the context why he said it, for what particular occasion, knowing well that he is speaking nonsense.

«Israel's policies toward the Palestinian people range from
1948»

Israel had no policies in 1948. The situation was chaotic and different decisions as to the fate of the local Arab population were made individually by junior military commanders, typically ranking Captains and aged in their early 20's.

«Israeli historian Ilan Pappe writes:»

This is OLO, "Online Opinion", so I am more interested in your own views. If Mr Pappe wants to express his, then nothing stops him from registering and commenting here.

Yuyutsu,

Ilan Pappe is an Israeli historian.

I'm not.

Therefore I prefer facts to opinions.

If you don't like my posts you're under no
obligation to read them.

Dear Foxy,

«Therefore I prefer facts to opinions.»

"We all deserve a better ending to the story of the Holocaust..."
"Nothing like that could happen if we continue to fall into the trap of treating mythologies as truths."
"Colonized people, even under the UN Charter, have the right to struggle for their liberation"

These all are opinions too: an historian's opinions are still... just opinions.

I do prefer the opinions of OLO members whom I can interact with over these pages, yours included!

Yuyutsu,

That's where we differ.

I prefer informed opinions based on facts.

Dear Foxy,

Opinions may (or may not) be SUPPORTED by facts, but are otherwise also based on emotions and personal preferences.

What is based on facts alone, is called a CONCLUSION, not an opinion.

Yuyutsu,

I prefer to draw judgements based on factual evidence.
On facts that are verifiable by research and put into
context to give them meaning.

I prefer to stay-away from half-baked opinions based
on umexamined evidence. Prejudice has no place in
serious argumentation. I also try to keep my own
beliefs out of the issues as much as I can. Let the
facts speak for themselves.

I don't want to continue to argue with you.