The Guardian reports April 4, 2024 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

“The Israeli military’s bombing campaign in Gaza used a previously undisclosed AI-powered database that at one stage identified 37,000 potential targets based on their apparent links to Hamas, according to intelligence sources involved in the war."

[The AI database is called "LAVENDER" developed by Israel's electronic intelligence agency "Unit 8200", a cover name for Israel's NSA].

In addition to talking about their use of the AI system, called LAVENDER, the intelligence sources claim that Israeli military officials permitted large numbers of Palestinian civilians to be killed, particularly during the early weeks and months of the conflict.

...“This is unparalleled, in my memory,” said one intelligence officer who used Lavender, adding that they had more faith in a “statistical mechanism” than a grieving soldier. “EVERYONE THERE, INCLUDING ME, LOST PEOPLE ON OCTOBER 7. THE MACHINE DID IT COLDLY. AND THAT MADE IT EASIER.”

...Several of the sources described how, for certain categories of targets, the IDF applied pre-authorised allowances for the estimated number of civilians who could be killed before a strike was authorised.

Two sources said that during the early weeks of the war they were permitted to kill 15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes on low-ranking militants. Attacks on such targets were typically carried out using unguided munitions known as “dumb bombs”, the sources said, destroying entire homes and killing all their occupants.

...Another said the principal question they were faced with was whether the “collateral damage” to civilians allowed for an attack.

“Because we usually carried out the attacks with dumb bombs, and that meant literally dropping the whole house on its occupants. But even if an attack is averted, you don’t care – you immediately move on to the next target. Because of the system, the targets never end. You have another 36,000 waiting.”

According to conflict experts, if Israel has been using dumb bombs to flatten the homes of thousands of Palestinians who were linked, with the assistance of AI, to militant groups in Gaza, that could help explain the shockingly high death toll in the war..."
MORE http://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

I have allowed this post, but it appears to be propaganda, and the Guardian subsequently published a response from the Israeli Defence Force repudiating the claims that they target using AI.

Lavender is a database, there are multiple humans involved in the targeting and approval process, and most of their munitions are smart bombs.

Read the IDF response and then make up your own minds. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-defence-forces-response-to-claims-about-use-of-lavender-ai-database-in-gaza, but it appears to me as the moderator that wars now extend beyond geographical boundaries via media and social media which carries unverified stories based on false or incomplete information designed to further the aims of one side or the other in a conflict.

It is dangerous for forums to amplify this propaganda.

Israel's usual friends, including Australia and the US, are learning more about Israel's style of mass punishment for October 7th the longer the killing goes on.

Typically Israel operates on a reverse decimation principle, ie. for the 1,139 Israelis murdered on October 7th 12,000 Arabs would expect to be killed by the IDF. But Israel has exceeded even Biden's expectations:

Palestinian sources estimate "Since the start of the Israeli operation, more than 32,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed,[30] including over 13,000 children and 9,000 women." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

Then there is the principles of Proportionality and Distinction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Proportionality_and_distinction

"...Human Rights Watch [HRW] has stated that the overall civilian death toll, and Israel's use of powerful weapons in Gaza's densely-populated neighbourhoods, raised "serious questions" about the legality of Israel's conduct. HRW further argued that a higher proportion of casualties among women and children is indicative of a lack of proportionality.

...Amnesty International accused Israel of war crimes in a report where it analyzed five incidents between 7 October and 12 October where the IDF targeted residential areas in Gaza. It found that in several cases the IDF struck targets with no evidence of military activity and that these attacks were "indiscriminate" in nature.

...Experts cited by The Washington Post argue that certain Israeli airstrikes show that Israel has a tolerance for civilian casualties "orders of magnitude greater" than that of the US in its war against ISIS.

...In March 2024, the United Nations said that more children were killed in Gaza in four months than in four years of worldwide wars.[683]

Philippe Lazzarini, head of the UN’s agency for Palestinian refugees, declared: "This war is a war on children"."

With the references to The Guardian, it has to be propaganda.

No ttbn

"With the references to The Guardian" are not "propaganda"

The Guardian's sources are mainly Israeli military and intelligence people who admit they are killing too many non-Hamas civilians...

Where is mention in the piece that Gaza is controlled by a terrorist organisation that has spent most of the aid given to its people on fortifications and weapons for the sole purpose of killing Jews? None.

Were Ukraine to have created a similar network of fortifications and weapons along its border for the purpose of conducting unprovoked attacks against Russians on Russian soil, including murder and the taking of hostages, then I would have no objection to Russia exercising its right to send in its army and remove the threat and rescue its citizens.

Mav, the way it works is that if a nation is subjected to unprovoked attacks it has the right to defend itself and neutralise the threat. Contrary to the belief of some, it is not the case that unprovoked attacks by terrorists and authoritarian regimes are always right and just whereas defensive responses by democratic nations to such attacks are always barbaric and unjust.

Maverick

References, particularly those involving the MSM, are generally useless because they are mere reports, lacking proof or descriptions of how and why conclusions were reached. It's easy to find something you want to hear: harder to find the truth.

Fester

The issue is "proportionality" ie. the more powerful army justifying how many civilians can be killed per low level Hamas militant/terrorist.

Even the Russians aren't working with Israeli AI software that justifies killing "15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes [per] low-ranking militant."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

For the 1,300 Israelis murdered on 7th October around 20,000 Gaza civilians have been murdered. Around 10,000 Hamas terrorists (who expected to die) have been killed.

Israeli forces haven't even got to Rafah yet where Gaza civilians are crowded against an Israel/Egyptian built walls. They've run out of space to flee. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_offensive

US intelligence is estimating another 20,000 Gaza civilians will be killed by the IDF in and around Rafah - making a total of 40,000 Gaza civilians being murdered in the Hamas-Israel War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_offensive

I suppose we whites in the West (be it Israel or Australia) are accustomed to the idea of 30 Browns being killed per White.

Unfortunately Hamas, like ISIS, is an idea, not a finite force, that won't be finally crushed by the IDF's killing spree (involving too many civilians murdered) that even the US is condemning.

Hi Graham,
"I have allowed this post, but it appears to be propaganda, and the Guardian subsequently published a response from the Israeli Defence Force repudiating the claims that they target using AI."
- I'm not certain this is correct.

‘The Gospel’: how Israel uses AI to select bombing targets in Gaza
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets

Israel is using an AI system to find targets in Gaza. Experts say it's just the start
http://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st

Regardless of what happened or did not happen in Gaza, AI should be banned and overall the power given to computers should be curtailed.

What people are doing using computers is scary already and soon, if this is allowed to continue, there will not even be people behind those computers, in fact all humans will then be dispensed with.

Why is it that anything criticizing Israel is
propaganda. And what Israel puts out about Hamas
and Gaza is not? Also if the sources supplying
information to the Guardian are linked to the IDF
and other Israeli sources - and we should question them,
Does that mean that Israeli sources can't be trusted?

AC

“...officials said Israel had fought its “first AI war” using machine learning and advanced computing.”

What officials? Where's the evidence that there were any officials who said anything?

How about the website - in Hebrew. You read Hebrew do you?

Then there's the assertion that Israel is using AI. So what?

Junk citations or references are those that are “wrong, irrelevant, misleading, corrupt, uninformative, useless, or purely rhetorical.”

Have your references been checked? Have you verified them?

There is no sense in using references if they just say what you want them to say. Have you ever looked at references which say things you don't agree.

As I've said before, crap references are usually found to be rubbish by people who actually read them. People who use them thinks it makes them look knowledgeable. That’s all.

Mav

"Even the Russians aren't working with Israeli AI software that justifies killing "15 or 20 civilians during airstrikes [per] low-ranking militant."

I would doubt that the Russians have ever given consideration to how many people they kill and under what circumstances, including their own troops. The meat wave attacks, the Bucha massacre, targeting civilians at the Mariupol theatre, the missile attack of a crowded railway station at Kramatorsk are examples. All denied by the Russians, with them often blaming the Ukrainians for the murders so as to generate sympathy. And they did the same in Syria (minus the meat waves).

But everyone knows about this already, so there is no point in making any further mention of it, although an exception can always be made for mentioning the My Lai massacre in discussing current practice of the US military.

Yep, lets discuss instead a fake propaganda piece as "proof" of how the IDF fights Hamas. Maybe another illegal protest can be held at the opera house to protest the injustice, replete with "gas the Jews" and "F the Jews" chants, all monitored by the police in case someone shows up with an Israeli flag? Then the NSW police can do a "fact check" investigation and announce that there was no breach of any hate laws as the protesters were chanting "Clean your shoes!" as determined by an exhaustive forensic analysis by auditory experts.

Thanks Armchair Critic

You've found further evidence where the IDF admits its reliance on AI (ie. a large software program and network, which of course has Israeli servicemen in the network) including:

In December 2023 ‘The Gospel’: how Israel uses AI to select bombing targets in Gaza
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets

and not only the Guardian but a long report from Washington DC based NPR in December 2023 "Israel is using an AI system to find targets in Gaza. Experts say it's just the start"
http://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st

With the NPR reporting:

"The Israeli military says it's using artificial intelligence to select many of these targets in real-time. The military claims that the AI system, named "the Gospel," has helped it to rapidly identify enemy combatants and equipment, while reducing civilian casualties.

But critics warn the system is unproven at best — and at worst, providing a technological justification for the killing of thousands of Palestinian civilians...."

US NSA contacts advise the main difference between the two Israeli AI systems is in the definition of the target:

- "Gospel" marks buildings and structures that the IDF claims militants operate from

- while "Lavender" marks people — and puts them on a kill list.

Hi Mavs,

All this is really frightening stuff.

I fear for the future and what it could entail in
terms of conflicts. Too much sci-fi for me to
comprehend.

Mav,

First you misrepresent a fake propaganda piece: You suggest Israel is using AI to kill civilians when the purpose of the AI, were it to exist, is to limit harm to civilians. Then you respond to mention of Russian atrocities (which are only fake according to AC and Russian agents) by suggesting that the Russians have higher humanitarian standards as they don't use the imaginary software. Now you are suggesting that the AI tale is true because other agencies have reported the story.

Remember the Gaza hospital bombing, initially claimed to be an Israeli air strike that killed 500? Remember Albo, PenPen et al jumping in to condemn Israeli aggression? Remember how it turned out to be a failed Hamas rocket fired at Israel from a position using the hospital as cover? Remember how Albo and PenPen then only made mention of the human tragedy and made no comment on Hamas using human shields? Remember how quickly the story was forgotten when the Jew kicking opportunity vanished?

Fester,

No. the Israeli claims were not able to be confirmed.
The evidence of what the Israelis were claiming was
not found to be true.

___________________________________________________________________

It should be noted that the Israelis are using all sorts of
techniques to justify their actions. For example -
the weaponization of Holocaust
memory by Israeli politicians runs deep. Netanyahu has taken this
to a new level. The use of the Holocaust is not to stand with
powerless people facing the prospect of genocidal violence,
but to support and justify extremely violent attacks by a powerful
state,
and at the same time distort the reality.

The reality, we see in front of our eyes daily on television.
The history of the Holocaust also points to the importance
of accountability. Today accountability remains limited. Yet
Israeli war crimes and violations of international
humanitarian laws are beyond dispute.

Foxy,

I remember you being insistent that the Uluru statement was a single page and backed it up with links to fact checking that turned out to be false.

Now you make mention of the wicked Israeli war criminals without any reference to the terrorists they are fighting. Hamas uses civilians as human shields and still holds Israeli hostages taken on October 7. Did you know that? Most of the allegations of Israeli war crimes come from Hamas, like the hospital bombing which not even your cult leader blames on the Israelis any more.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207173798/fake-accounts-old-videos-and-rumors-fuel-chaos-around-gaza-hospital-explosion

Not everything cult leader Albo and deputy PenPen says is true Foxy.

Fester,

The Uluru Statement from the Heart was ONE page followed
by 25 pages of background information and excerpts of
regional dialogues that informed the ONE page Uluru
Statement.

It is a moral catastrophe that people refuse to consider
the circumstances of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Many of the reactions to the Hamas attacks on 7th October
are really curious. The moment that it's mentioned of the need
to understand the circumstances on which the attacks took
place - of Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and its
iron encirclement of the Gaza Strip - one is accused of
supporting or justifying Hamas terrorism.

Are you aware of how strange that is?

It is well known among those that follow such things that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in this war is much lower than other urban battles like Aleppo or Mosul.

When one side embeds itself within the civilian population and effectively uses them as shields, civilian deaths are inevitable. But Israelis try much harder and much more effectively to minimise civilian casualties than other armies because they know that every civilian death is used by the antisemitic press as a propaganda tool.

Perhaps this AI tool/information database (if it exists) is the reason the Israelis are able to keep civilian casualties so low as compared to similar conflicts.

_____________________________________________________________________

"For example - the weaponization of Holocaust memory by Israeli politicians runs deep"

Yes, it is truly said that world will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust.

Fester,

A flood of false information, partisan narratives, and
weaponized "fact-checking," has obscured who was responsible
for the explosion at a hospital in Gaza. Israel's claims
could not be verified. Both sides just care about finding
something to use against the other side. That is why it is
hard to know what's real.

If you consider our PM a "cult leader," you must have a poor
opinion of Australian voters.

It is a shame that the memory of the Holocaust is
being weaponized by the Israelis. Eli Wiesel would not
have remained silent about it.

Foxy

"If you consider our PM a "cult leader," you must have a poor
opinion of Australian voters."

I don't think much of Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany either, but as those countries demonstrated after WWII, it wasn't because the people were inherently bad.

Much of how the Japanese and German regimes behaved were decidedly cultish, and Albo has shown parallels with his promotion of the Voice and his pursuit of wind and solar. And what is welcome to country/acknowledgement of country if not cultish? Why do you think that Australia's business leaders obsequiously follow the whims of cult leader Albo?

Well said Foxy

Ordinarily Israel would limit its revenge killing to 10 Arab civilians for each Israeli civilian murdered - ergo expectations were 13,000 dead Arab civilians in revenge for the 1,300 Israelis murdered on or after October 7, 2023.

Israel's revenge invasion post October 7 then may have ended in December 2023. But Netanyahu has exceeded the expectations of even his most extreme followers.

For political reasons Netanyahu has kept the killing going because his rightwing Israeli governing coalition needs to survive. It needs to protect him from being ousted because he was asleep at the security wheel in not foreseeing the October 7 attack.

Netanyahu has long credited himself as the saviour of Israel's state security. One claim to fame is that he served in Israel's counter-terrorism Special Forces. But he has now failed dismally.

Palestinians generally and Gazan civilians specifically are paying with their lives to keep Netanyahu in power.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza

Fester,

Then where do you put Peter Dutton and his supporters?
Or Pauline Hanson and hers?
And the list goes on?

What about Donald Trump?

What about Putin?

Are followers of the Pope also cultish?

We could go on and on.

I guess it is a question of one's values, culture, education
and of course politics.

Hi Mavs,

I've come across an article in Quora that I think is
worth a read. It was written by an Israeli who lives
in Tel Aviv, Noam Cohen.

He asks and answers the question - "Should I support Israel
or Palestine?"

If you go into the link I give and click onto "Should I
support Israel or Palestine?" you'll be able to read his
article.

Well worth it, in my opinion:

http://quora.com/profile/Noam-Cohen-6

Foxy,

Everyone has opinions and should be free to hold them. Things drift into cultism when people feel compelled to hold the same view as the cult leader. I found your arguing for the Voice and about the length of the Uluru statement as claimed by Albo to be good examples. Another feature of cults is to vilify people who differ in opinion. This was the case with the Voice and led to many people opposed to it being silent.

"Ordinarily Israel would limit its revenge killing to 10 Arab civilians for each Israeli civilian murdered "

That's simply rubbish. All the polling and even the anti-Israeli correspondents on the ground agree that the vast majority of Israelis want the war to continue until the hostages (did you forget about them?) are returned AND Hamas is eliminated. Nought to do with revenge and everything to do with future security.

Those who constantly pine and whine for the end of Netanyahu will be badly disappointed if that were to happen since his likely successor is entirely in agreement with the current policies as are the vast majority of parliamentarians and the populace.

If Hamas released the over 139 persons or bodies of Israeli citizens the war would cease. But No, the dogged Hamas want Israel removed is the only answer they want. The Gazan population is suffering because of Hamas. There are more than 30,000 Hamas combatants, and so far, Israel has not neutralized Hamas, nor have they released their captive citizens. The war will go on till all Israel citizens are returned.

Thanks Foxy

For http://www.quora.com/profile/Noam-Cohen-6

Its a complex war with no side totally right or totally wrong.

But minimising civilian deaths is of the highest importance in the international community.

And that community includes Australia.

There are rules of law, none of which stipulate just how many civilian deaths are acceptable. Civilians are killed during war. There were 6,000,000,000 Jews alone killed during WW11, not accidentally as in Gaza, but deliberately by the German equivalents of Hamas, their supporters and followers.

Asimov's 3 Laws ... "A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law." Seems logical... just need to decide which of the 2 elephants in the room is more equal to the other one it appears. Meanwhile "surgically precise bomb strikes" remove children's limbs with surgical precision in both Gaza and Israel. What a thoroughly sick species we are.

ttbn

Where you claim:

"There are rules of law, none of which stipulate just how many civilian deaths are acceptable. Civilians are killed during war. There were 6,000,000,000 Jews alone killed during WW11, not accidentally as in Gaza, but deliberately by the German equivalents of Hamas, their supporters and followers.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 5 April 2024 4:50:52 PM"

Yours is a rather simplistic, glib and dyslexic comment.

No "6,000,000,000 Jews" weren't murdered by the Nazis. That was more people than the population of Earth in 1945.

There are legal rules of war relating to civilian murder including:

- the Fourth Geneva Convention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention Prohibits and defines "indiscriminate attacks" as "incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated." This rule is referred to by scholars as the principle of proportionality."

Now look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Indiscriminate_attacks

"In the first week of the war, the IDF carried out 6,000 airstrikes across Gaza, killing over 3,300 civilians and injuring over 12,000. The strikes hit specifically PROTECTED LOCATIONS, including hospitals, markets, refugee camps, mosques, educational facilities, and entire neighbourhoods.

A group of UN special rapporteurs asserted that Israel's airstrikes are indiscriminate, stating that the airstrikes are "absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime"."

Do you know better than UN lawyers?

Maverick,

Too many zeros. 6 million, as you would know if you didn't have the urge to emit a sarcastic sneer.

Your other comments are just your opinion, with which I obviously disagree.

If you want to use references, at least go to the Convention itself, not the amateurIsh Wikipedia, controlled by a few Leftist twits.

There was no “indiscriminate” attack on those silly enough to enter a war zone. At worst, it was accidental. And, you should know civilians get killed in wars. Bits of paper won't prevent it happening.

Do you have experience of war? No. Of course you don't. Far too naive.

Civilians used as shields; hospitals used to store weaponry have no legal protection.

Your UN leaders were not present; and yes, I do know at least as much as they do, if not more.

"Do you have experience of war?"

Yes. NTK.

Hi Mavs,

Thanks for the detailed material from a reliable source, a well presented argument. The hostages are, and have always been an excuse for Israel to launch an ethnic cleansing operation against the Palestinian people in Gaza. Even the United States, a country not averse to killing civilians in third world countries when the opportunity arises, is becoming increasingly nerves as world opinion, horrified at the mass murder of civilians in Gaza, shifts away from Israel and in favour of the Palestinian people.

This has to be the chuckle of the week; "I have allowed this post, but it appears to be propaganda". This site is full of propaganda.

Gazans have a Hitler Youth approach to bringing up their children, but at least they have the ambition of exterminating the Zionists, which seems to be an acceptable form of hatred and antisemitism for some on OLO.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3399430967036903

"A flood of false information, partisan narratives, and
weaponized "fact-checking," has obscured who was responsible
for the explosion at a hospital in Gaza. Israel's claims
could not be verified."

Maybe for a Jew hater that is the case, but for more objective people the Wall Street Journal conducted an analysis that seemed quite conclusive.

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu-sn&hs=6gF&sca_esv=0d192b7b40015184&sca_upv=1&channel=fs&sxsrf=ACQVn09Gxu5ADNb8lhP4ZStcgCU8u2En4A:1712350461957&q=rockets+fired+from+hospital+in+gaza&tbm=vid&source=lnms&prmd=nivsmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil94_I-quFAxU_sVYBHbomD4sQ0pQJegQICRAB&biw=1850&bih=909&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:89efb108,vid:P6HcaYiuCK8,st:0

Fester,

What's with the name-calling?

It shows that's all you've got. Poor show.

You've got the Wall ?Street Journal. I've got the
New York Times, Reuters, Washington Post, The Israel Times,
and so many others.

You're welcome.

"Maybe for a Jew hater that is the case, but for more objective people the Wall Street Journal conducted an analysis that seemed quite conclusive."

You have to understand, Fester, that, even though the evidence that the hospital carpark was hit by a failed Hamas rocket is conclusive and accepted by pretty much all the experts in the field, for some the idea of blaming the evil Jews is just too attractive to let mere facts get in the way.

"The strikes hit specifically PROTECTED LOCATIONS, including hospitals, markets, refugee camps, mosques, educational facilities, and entire neighbourhoods."

Any site that is nominally protected, losses that protection when it is used by defenders for military purposes. A hospital that is used to store munitions or which has command centres in tunnels below it, ceases to be a protected site under international law. A religious building from which fighters are shooting similarly losses protection under international law. This is, of course, why Hamas uses hospitals, schools, mosques and residences to hide its 'warriors', munitions depots and command centres. Either they escape attack due to pieties about the law or, if attacked, are used by partisans for propaganda purposes.

The explosion at the car park of Al-Ahli Arab hospital
in Gaza City, the exact cause of the blast is still
contested.

http://bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67216929

Foxy, ya dill, that BBC report is dated 27 October 2023 while it was still (barely) possible to maintain the fiction that it was an Israeli strike. The world and even the BBC has moved on since then. You should try to keep up.

http://news.yahoo.com/bbc-jeremy-bowen-admits-got-194844026.html

"BBC international editor Jeremy Bowen has admitted his coverage of the alleged bombing of a hospital in Gaza was “wrong” but still said he “doesn’t regret one thing” about his reporting...."

“Anyone who was under the impression that the BBC had learned any lessons from its hasty assignment of blame to Israel for the explosion at the Al-Ahli hospital on October 17th will understand from Jeremy Bowen’s statements that they were sadly wrong."

Ditto as regards Foxy who also has the distinction of declaring that there was no evidence tunnels were under the hospital on the SAME day as evidence was revealed that there were indeed tunnels under the hospital. Another claim she can't bring herself to walk back.

Thanks mhaze. What I found convincing about WSJ's analysis of the hospital car park bombing was the number of independently verifiable and objective sources of evidence, like the footage from four different cameras operating at the time of the incident.

What worries me at present is PenPen's determination to restore funding to UNRWA when there is no indication that they will stop teaching children hatred or supporting terrorism.

https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/unrwa-and-the-miseducation-of-the-palestinian-people/

People will hold all manner of silly and illogical opinions on all manner of things, the length of the Uluru statement as an example. I'm sure that my opinions are no exception, but to be able to hold varied opinions on things is something to uphold as a triumph of democracy. So LGBTQ people are free to support and sympathise with people who would summarily and mercilessly throw them from tall buildings on the basis of their sexuality. I think it a little silly, but it's not my business to tell people what to think nor to condemn them for their views or the views of their cult leaders.

Hi Mavs,

Dr Nick Maynard, and many other doctors
at the hospital during the conflict have refuted
the claims of the IDF and said at the time
there were no Hamas fighters in the hospital.

We've got the baying of the hounds here, which is to be
expected. Winston Churchill famously said:

"You will never reach your destination if you stop and throw
stones at every dog that barks."

This discussion is bringing us many barking dogs to deal
with.

Here's a link as to what Dr Nick Maynard has to say:

http://irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41367394

As the owner of occasionally barking dogs I can assure you that they more than make up for their limited conversation with impeccable character judgement. And please refrain from throwing stones at animals. Just because it's part of the animal and Jew cruelty taught to kids in Gaza doesn't make it a civilised or acceptable practice.

Fester,

Unfortunately children in Gaza have more than stones
thrown at them. They are bombed, killed, starved, and
much worse. Glad to hear that your dogs are treated well
by you. A pity the same can't be said for the children of Gaza.
But some empathy for the children of Gaza from you would be
appreciated and add to your humanity.

Also as reported on the PBS News Hour, the World Central
Kitchen was transparent about its movements in the
besieged Gaza Strip.

Apparently this was not just a case of bad luck situation
where "oops"we dropped the bomb in the wrong place.
As Founder and Chef of the World Central Kitchen stated,
"We co-ordinated our movements with the IDF,"
"The IDF airstrike in Gaza systematically targeted us car by car."

Rather sad that some Festering posters on this thread have decided to conflate Israel's military and "neighbourly" policies with anti-Semitism.

Thanks for the link Foxy.

True, it's tragic for the kids, but an inevitable consequence of previous generations taught the same hatred.

Mav,

You didn't need to go beyond the title to demonstrate your antisemitism, but suggesting that the Russian army has higher standards than the IDF certainly cemented it.

Fester,

Hatred was not taught to the kids in Gaza.
It was the treatment by Israel of generations
of Palestinians that brought that about.
Accountability needs to be shared not be just
one-sided in this case.

Accountability is key.

As for anti-semitism?

Arabs are also Semites.

Foxy: There is still some doubt about the hospital bombing. Even the BBC thinks there's doubt.

Mhaze: here's evidence that the BBC has admitted they were wrong and the hospital was bombed by a rogue Hamas rocket.

Ethical Foxy: Oh, I see. Thanks for the info...I'll try to do better next time.

Our Foxy: Quick change the subject.

mhaze,

We've already covered this subject.

However, I'll play.

1) I am very sorry.

2) I'll try to be good.

3) 1 and 2 are lies.

4) I'd like to tell you to f-off. But that
would be rude.

So, whatever rocks your boat.

"Hatred was not taught to the kids in Gaza."

Is that so, Foxy? UNWRA is doing a pretty good job according to UN Watch:

https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/

Teaching kids to torment animals, hate a particular group of people and aspire to kill them amounts to child abuse Foxy. That's what PenPen wants to support with Australian taxpayer's money. Do you think that's okay?

Fester,

Thank you for your comments.

I shall give them all the attention that they
deserve.

Enjoy your week-end.

Hi Foxy

What is it about this pest InFESTERation* that lowers the tone of all OLO discussions?!

* Fester "is the state of being invaded or overrun by pests or parasites. It can also refer to the actual orgasms living on or within a host."

Cheers Mavs

Hi Mav,

You can see the horrific child abuse the current generation of Hamas terrorists suffered for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy2b5HBlsks

Some Irishman nobody knows says that Israel is deliberately targeting non-combatants, so it must be true. Like 99.9% of "links" bandied about here, it proves nothing. The people who use this bluffing tactic don't really expect anyone to check them. They just look good when, in fact, they are just an expression of the same opinion as the bullsh-t artist poster who puts them up.

Still, it gives the clowns something to do, fishing around all day to find other people who are as bored and nutty as they are. Seems like a lot of work for nothing, though.

Thanks Festive

Kids rote learning nasty play acting. They wouldn't know what they're chanting. Awful blonde.

You're welcome Mav.

"Kids rote learning nasty play acting. They wouldn't know what they're chanting."

It's child abuse, Mav, and a consequence of the abuse became apparent on October 7. How do you feel about that abuse being funded by Australians? How do you feel about the PM and FM choosing to reinstate funding for UNWRA when there is no indication that its abuse of children will cease?

Foxy,

No need to get angry. I'm just engaging in a discussion, but if you were ever to leave the Albo cult think of all the matters you would be able to discuss. Like the Uluru statement, your world could become much bigger.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-your-child-abuse-must-stop/

mhaze: Foxy says there is still some doubt about the hospital bombing.

Foxy: That's a lie.

Foxy (on the same day!!): "The explosion at the car park of Al-Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza City, the exact cause of the blast is still contested."

Struth.

Hi Fester,

You have no idea how broad my world really is or
what I have and still do live and experience. I
am a professional researcher and trained in
garnering and dealing with facts from a wide-variety
of sources. However, my friends and colleagues do
keep asking me - why I keep coming back to the forum -
and allow myself to be exposed to personal attacks
from anonymous people?

The aim to correct falsehoods and misinformation
far outweighs the personal attacks dealt out by
a few narrow-minded and ignorant people. So I keep
trying to do what I see as my job.

Besides I feel sorry for many on this forum.
They, if they were honest, would have to
admit that this forum would be boring without me.

Hi Mavs,

If we can't or don't discuss or talk things out from
all sides of an issue, the issue can't or won't be put
to rest. And if it's not put to rest, the wounds will
fester from generation to generation.

People in glass houses Foxy, and you've thrown far more stones than me. What I question is your avoidance of some areas of discussion, most recently of the association of UNRWA with the horrific and ongoing abuse of children. It is particularly pertinent given your very active history of concern about child abuse in the Catholic Church, yet with the industrial scale of child abuse being conducted by UNRWA and granted Australia's support by Albo and PenPen, you choose to stand by in silence. Why is that?

The only sense I can make of things is that you are an Albo rep here, and other than it being a reason for your conduct I couldn't care less.

Hi Fester,

I don't live in a glass house. I live in a high-rise
apartment. I also don't throw stones. I seek and
provide facts and evidence-based information. I also
do not avoid areas of discussion. What I avoid are
falsehoods and misinformation. I don't believe in
giving platforms and publicity to those.

UNRWA has long been a target of Israeli criticism.
Israel has made, and continues to make many accusations
against UNRWA. Netanyahu has sought to dismantle the
UN body. Israel did succeed in getting several Western
countries, including Australia to suspend funding
temporarily to UNRWA. Countries like Ireland,
Norway, and others refused. Australia has re-instated
its funding as has the US.

The allegations could not be proven and it was decided that
punishing millions without just cause would not only be
shocking but criminal. Unsubstantiated allegations should
not be taken seriously.

You seem incapable of looking at issues from various points
of view. But you certainly are not alone as far as Israel is
concerned. Especially on this forum. For that reason I am
not interested in any further discussion with you. It's
pointless, and won't produce anything productive. I would
therefore appreciate it if you did not direct any more posts
to me.

I don't have either the time or the inclination to continue
to respond. No offence. There's simply no point. And using
slurs of our politicians is not at all endearing and is
considered by man as an out-moded tactic.

Cheers.

Fester,

Using Zionist sources is hardly creditable, no more than Hamas sources are creditable. This appears in YOUR article "ties of thousands of UNRWA employees to terror groups." not true, Israeli blogger Lilia Gaufburg reproduced in 'The Times Of Israel'.

Good for you, Foxy. It's simpler for me to cut out intermediaries and get your opinion from your cult leader's mouth should I ever feel it worth seeking.

More on UNRWA employees glorifying Hitler and such like. I guess that only adds to its appeal with some of the anti-Zionists here.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4tlU4MteYJ/

Fester,

I'll make it simpler for you:

I don't live my life to please you.
I don't care what you think.
If you don't like me don't talk to me.
Problem solved!

The United Nations Human Rights Council has adopted
a resolution calling for Israel to be held accountable
for possible war crimes and crimes against humanity
committed in the Gaza Strip. No wonder Israel is against
UNRWA - the un agency can provide witnesses.

http://theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/05/un-human-rights-council-israel-gaza-biden-netanyahu

The UNHCR also called for the perpetrators of rape, sexual torture and murder on 7 October to be held accountable for war crimes. But I don't see too many people pushing for that to happen.

But. to be fair, the UNRWA would be very useful in this regard. Not only could they provide witnesses, they could also provide, from their own ranks, many actual participants

The Palestinian "Problem" could have been sorted by other Arabs in 1948.

A problem with Arab culture in the Middle East is it is tribal. Land is not willingly shared with other or brother Arab tribes. There's no concept of an Arab "Nation" in contrast to Europe, which thinks in terms of Nations.

So the 700,000 of Palestinian Arabs expelled by Israelis in the 1948 Palestine War have never been permitted to settle permanently in large groups in even large Arab countries. The 700,000 Palestinians are now millions with natural population increase.

Instead those other Arab countries are artificially keeping Palestinians in camps and/or as non-citizens to keep the holy anti-Israel struggle going.

Large Arab countries that could have resolved the Palestinian dispossession of their land, in 1948, include Egypt, Libya and Saudi Arabia. Particularly Saudi Arabia has the wealth, space and need for cheap Palestinian labour.

Compare the lack of Arab generosity with Germany's and Austria's in 1944-1950. In 1944-1950 more than 12 million ethnic Germans (whose ancestors hadn't lived in what is now Germany or Austria for centuries) were forced to become refugees from eastern Europe. Those east European counties included Czechoslovakia, Lower and Upper Silesia, East Prussia, Poland and parts of what then became the Soviet Union.

see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)

So Germany and Austria took in more than 12 million ethnic Germans in 1944-1950.

While Arab countries refused to permanently take in 700,000 of their "brother" Palestinian Arabs in 1948.

This Israeli has made numerous videos of the history of Israel and surrounding countries. Sadly his tourism business would have taken a hit of late.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giktOwxfK-M

Thanks Fester

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giktOwxfK-M is very compelling .

Mavs

"So the 700,000 of Palestinian Arabs expelled by Israelis in the 1948 Palestine War have never been permitted to settle permanently in large groups in even large Arab countries. The 700,000 Palestinians are now millions with natural population increase."

It seems like you're trying to frame the cause of the conflict as being that other Arab states would not take the Palestinians in.

The cause of the conflict is not that Arab nations wouldn't take the Palestinians in, but that the Israelis wanted the Palestinians out.

The question of why surrounding Muslim countries won't take in their fellow Muslims while the West, Australia in particular, bends over backwards to have them definitely needs answering.

Some of us know the answer, but too many people here don't want to hear it because it doesn't fit their ideology. So, who would bother trying to tell them? Not me.

Dear Critic,

Whatever happened 76 years ago, while we could keep analysing it ad nauseam as an intellectual pursuit, is irrelevant today.

The people involved in any decisions in 1948 have already died, and even Zionism is now a thing of the past, so why is this still an issue today?

The moneys spent on those Middle-Eastern wars is orders of magnitude bigger than what it would take to resettle these refugees, anywhere, even in Australia - suppose the refugees were offered a trillion dollars to forget their past and come to live here (Australia being just an example) and Australia was offered another trillion dollars for accepting them (covering all our present debt) - do you think anyone would refuse such a good offer?

So where is the need to keep warring?

I identify 3 motives:

1) The Arab countries, plus Iran, need to divert their people's attention and rage away from their authoritarian regimes and Islamic oppression, and find Israel the ideal sink for it.
(that is gradually on the decrease as more Arab countries are liberalised)

2) The Messianic Jews need to keep wars happening so they can keep the ordinary Israelis hostage, with the ultimate aim to turn Israel into a theocracy.

3) The bored Western world, where expressions of violence are socially unacceptable in everyday life, covertly enjoys the Middle-Eastern wars where they can see blood on TV, vent their anger by supporting one Middle-Eastern team or the other and derive much entertainment from it as a form of porn, distracting them from their otherwise dreary and empty lives.

---

Dear Ttbn,

«Some of us know the answer, but too many people here don't want to hear it because it doesn't fit their ideology. So, who would bother trying to tell them? Not me.»

Glad to be of service.

I am so sick and tired of reading that support of Palestine
is leftwing. That support of Israel is rightwing. That criticism
of Israel is anti-semitic. That empathy for Palestine is
Jew hatred. And the list goes on. I am Sick of
reading about those who are using this conflict for their
own means, keeping this situation volatile and advocating for
their side trying to make a case for extremism against those
they see as their mortal enemies.

Both sides are guilty of this believing that their suffering
gives them a pass to encourage further suffering in others so
long as their side is not being hurt. They see it as being
justified.

Where is all this going to end? What's happened to tolerance?
Tolerance must be universal, because hatred is universal.
Anything less than the protection of both peoples ensures the
destruction of both. The United States as a super power has
the influence that it can bring to bear to force Israel to
come to the table for peace and reconciliation. And this
the US needs to do.

The solution surely has to be - to keep talking about peace and
reconciliation and to stamp out toxic ideas and prevent them
from taking root.

Hi Foxy

The Middle East is the last place for World Peace.

World Peace largely being an impossible dream.

The only place that it has occurred is in Western and Central Europe under the European Union which rose from WWII into an oasis of peace from around 1948.

To create these conditions initially required large amounts of gifted US Marshall Plan money and united European social and political maturity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Initial_years_and_the_Paris_Treaty_(1948%E2%80%8D%E2%80%93%E2%80%8D1957)

Middle Eastern Arabs and Iran will probably take 100s of years to get to a true Arab-Persian Union like the European Union.

One reason being Sunni and Shiite infighting continues to cause many more deaths and disunity than the Israeli-Palestinian fighting.

But the UN, journalists and their "serious" readership don't find Arab inter-murder a trendy topic. This is because it is easier to blame ourselves, the Europeans, more broadly Whites including Israel, in any international conflict.

Mavs

I'm “sick and tired’' of the Left wing anti-Semitism sprayed about by Foxy. The Left has definitely inherited anti-Semitism from the National Socialists. There is nothing right wing about anti-Semitism.

Foxy should also be sick of herself “using this conflict for (her) own means”: Left wing propaganda that she lifts from the ABC, The Guardian, and the myriad of crackpots on Google.

She uses “both sides” as if she is some neutral arbiter above taking sides, when she is obviously a rabid Leftist, constantly trying to bully other posters into silence.

Foxy is a ‘normophobe’, someone with a phobia against normal people, normal thought normal values.

She even has the gall to talk about ‘tolerance’! And ‘toxic’ ideas!

Hi Mavs,

I have hope that things will change due to people
on both sides wanting what's best for their
children and families. A time must come when
rationality sets in - and people say - "Enough!"

I only hope this will happen sooner than later.
It's gone on for far too long.

ttbn,

Thank you for your continued enthusiasm and interest
in me - someone you don't know and yet continue to
attack. Your interest should certainly be directed
elsewhere than wasting so much time and energy on
such strong feelings as an anonymous poster against
a person you don't really know and have no way of
knowing their intentions. It can't be good for
your own reputation or health.

Take it easy and find something else to occupy your
time. Perhaps talking to family and friends might
help. Otherwise seek medical help.

I'm very concerned about the state of your mental health.
What you're spewing regularly, and your obvious
obsession with what I post, can't be good for you.

Perhaps the Moderator can help you out here - because
following another poster all over this forum and flaming
is actually against the forum rules.

Take it easy.

It is all a great mess is it not ?
The basic cause was laid down 1400 years ago by Mohammad.
Right from the start it was revealed by Archangel Gabriel that the
Jews were terrible people.
On 7th of October the public citizens of Gaza joyfully joined Hamas
in the attack on Israel.
Remember; "Mother be proud of your son, I have killed three Jews !"
Most citizens of a country have loyalty to their country.
But this was a bridge too far.

From what I have heard of the deaths of the World Kitchen killings
it seems as though there was not enough feedback from the attack
controllers to the those controlling movements such as aid people.
When the attack controllers saw what they thought were Hamas they
presumed the status of the convoy had changed.
That should have been confirmed by continuing to watch them.
That was not done and seven people died.

One reason given was that the Kitchen vehicles do not have radios.
Encrypted radios are available but Hamas could capture one is probably
why they have not been used but there could be a way around that.
The encryption could changed every few minutes.
I am sure our military has already solved that problem.

Hi Mavs,

I've just read that the Middle East is by far the most
complex region in the world. It's more than Arabs and
Sunni Muslims. And it has very diverse religions.
many resources, and is disgruntled about colonial rule.
So it does appear to bb a complex situation for any
peace being achieved in the near future.

Still one can live and hope.

Foxy, correct it is complex and most of us do not understand how complex.
As far as colonialism, the most significant was the Ottomans.
15th century to 20th century.
Then the UN and its mandates.
The main complexity is that the Moslems believe that the Jews are
colonists. They re no more so than aborigines are colonists.
That and the Koran is the source of the complexity.

Ban the Koran and re educate the moslems is the only answer.
Won't happen of course so we are stuck with these wars and terrorism
indefinately.

It will be interesting to see what effect the Russians have on the
Technocratic government that has been set up by the Russians the PLO
the Palistinian Authority, Hamas, Qatar and a number of terrorist organisations except ISIS.
I think Russia is just playing the part of the Useful Idiot.
Maybe ISIS attacked Moscow because they think Russia is interfering
in ISIS's business.

To sum up this is what I think should be our governments policies.
We must make sure our defence forces are well equipped.
Our anti terrorist organisations must be well sourced.
Our legal system must be able to handle immigration issues.
Those not able to put Australia before Islam must go.
We just cannot afford to import Middle East problems.

Do you find any of that unacceptable ?

Hi Bezza,

Do I find any of what you propose unacceptable?

Most of it, of course not. What I do have a
problem with is your statement of "Those unable
to put Australia first before Islam must go."

Why target just Islam?

The Middle East has other religions that are problematic.

Why not leave it at just - putting Australia first?

Typical Foxy. She tells us that she is sick and tired of hearing what she disagrees with, then spits the dummy when someone says that they are sick and tired of what she says, too.

It's a pity that she is so self-unaware that she is blissfully ignorant of her hypocrisy and the fact the she projects most of her faults onto other people. It takes all sorts, is the cliche. Thankfully, her sort are few, and she is the only one here.

ttbn,

Here you go again with your attacks on me.

You attack. I react. And it's always my fault isn't it.

You need to realize that not one drop of my self-worth
depends on your acceptance of me.

Don't concern yourself with things that don't concern you.
What I post is none of your business, don't continue to
make it your burden.

You can't compete where you don't compare.

Stick to your kindred spirits on this forum.
You'll feel much better.

There now go nuts!

This is getting so predictable and boring!

Pick on someone else just for a change.
It will be more entertaining for all of us.

Hi Foxy

Yes the Middle East region is as equally complex as the western and central Europe region.

Differences being in the Middle East is that any spare money is usually used to fight your neighbours while western and central Europe is peaceful.

The Middle East is overwhelmingly ruled by Dictators and Absolute Monarchs (with the exception of democratic Israel) while western and central Europe countries are all Democratic.

The Middle East is full of religious and other sectarian violence, with constant revenge killings and repression of WOMEN in many countries while western and central Europe rely on democratically grounded law and order with growing equality for WOMEN.

The Middle East is full of excuses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia%E2%80%93Sunni_relations#Explanations_for_growth_in_sectarianism for its violence even though colonial masters are long gone and the Middle East is awash in oil money for guns. Meanwhile western and central Europe make progress in peace.

Cheers Mavs

Hi Foxy,

If I didn't known better, I might believe this ttbn old bloke is stalking you on this forum. That's only if I didn't know better of course.

Thanks Mavs.

Yes ttbn, get your act together. Don't you realise that Foxy demands the right to make utterly ignorant statements (eg "the exact cause of the [hospital] blast is still contested") and then not have anyone point out they are utterly ignorant statements. The right to be wrong and have everyone pretend otherwise

It looks like AI did not help Israel.

AI located the kind of targets it was programmed to locate: Gazan Hamas operatives - AI cannot by itself choose the desired targets.

What Netanyahu did not understand, is that these dummy targets were already sacrificed on day 1 of the war in a brilliant gambit, along with the rest of Gaza and its people. Hamas didn't care to keep its Gazan troops alive, but strategically planned in advance to have them killed alongside as many Gazan citizens as possible: Israel fell directly into that trap.

Israel concentrated most of its troops in Gaza, and wasted there more ammunition than was used in World-War-II by both sides together. As a result it was unable to deter Hezbollah and had to vacate some 100,000 of its citizens from its northern border, who haven't seen their homes and businesses for 6 months. As another result, both Israel and Jews worldwide became hated by the rest of the world for killing the Gazan people (even while many Gazans were actually killed by Hamas, to boost their numbers). As another result, Israel has become the cause of blocking the trade in one of the most busy naval routes - the Suez canal. As a result, Israel's economy is faltering and Israel finds it harder to obtain new arms and ammunition, badly needed for its other fronts.

Israel seems to have lost this war because it had no strategy while its enemies had. It is now withdrawing its troops.

The underlying reason is that its prime-minister cares first and foremost for himself, his family and his own seat, not for his country, not for the Israeli hostages who are perishing in hell, only to save his corrupt self from prison.

Dear Maverick,

«The Middle East is overwhelmingly ruled by Dictators and Absolute Monarchs (with the exception of democratic Israel)»

Netanyahu only won narrowly by an electoral glitch.
Since elected, he formed a coalition with Israel's Nazi party and together they were working tirelessly to dismantle Israel's pillars of democracy - its High Court and its free media.

mhaze

She's the only female here now. I wonder how well she would go in a group of other females. Not too well, is my guess, and she probably knows it. Women take at lot lot less rubbish from shrews than men do. She gets away with murder here.

Hi AC,

"The cause of the conflict is not that Arab nations wouldn't take the Palestinians in, but that the Israelis wanted the Palestinians out."

This Israeli gives a good discussion of war and displacement (Nakba), centering around the first Arab-Israeli war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5wVaNknEkY

Hi Yuyutsu, at Monday, 8 April 2024 7:27:53 PM

True that Netanyahu, since his democratic elections, has become more corrupt, rule-breaking and indeed authoritarian. Power for too long has leaders believing their own Propaganda with Bibi believing he embodies Israel.

What are the parametres of your claim:

"Israel concentrated most of its troops in Gaza, and wasted there more ammunition than was used in World-War-II by both sides together."

Are you saying in 6 months Israel has expended trillions of bullets and millions of tonnes of artillery rounds?

OR

Israel has expended more rounds PER MAN than any side in WWII?

The US fired the most rounds per man in WWII, because they could afford to - and this minimised US losses - while maximising enemy losses.

Cheers Mavs

Yuyutsu

Sadly you again expose yourself as an Biden/Obama parrot.

You and yours, have become increasingly unpopular with Israelis rank and file: But not at all with the judiciary you and the overwhelmingly outnumbered elites, misguidedly defend against the long overdue Judicial reforms spearheaded by Netanyahu.

Why do you choose this moment to pillory Israels most popular, capable and overwhelmingly trusted leader in a decade?

To my mind, you are the prime example of the most treacherous and treasonous kind of Israeli willing to weaken its position from within, to advance the interests of a foreign , and increasingly alienating power, the US.

Dear Maverick,

What I read is that Israel used overall more explosives than in World-War-II, most of it by air-bombs, not necessary bullets from personal guns, which are small and therefore have only a small explosive content.

---

Dear Dan,

If you could read Hebrew, you might be surprised to read the angry and fearless comments by Israelis over today's news and how overwhelmingly the Israelis oppose Netanyahu.

Here are a few random translations from http://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/sjt95z11lr

10. Government of destruction. Small and miserable zeroes, you are the only ones who need to go home and not the soldiers who risk their lives over decades for you. (88 thumbs up, 1 thumb down)

27. Netanyahu to jail.
Reply: why to jail and not to the gallows?

53. If there is justice in the world, these three will pay the ultimate price for the destruction of the state. Our glorious state. Our pride, the fruit of our labour, which we paid and still pay for in blood. The state which is a wonder. Which during its short years in existence overtook many other countries with enormous achievements in so many areas. The state which raised super-heroes, Nobel prize winners, renowned authors, highly-considered intellectuals and lots of more good, this state now stands in ruins, beaten, humiliated, defeated, broken up, non-operational. A state in trauma where the sadness of the loss lays on it like thick fog. And all due to three crooks and one crazy woman. How have we reached that, how? (52 thumbs up, 2 thumbs down)

218. It is good to die for the preservation of the coalition.

237. Smotritz and Ben Gvir jeopardise any hostage deal. It is inconceivable that two madman jeopardise a hostage deal, they did not even serve in the army and only want the war to continue so they can keep their seat, and the blood of our soldiers and hostages is on their hands.

To summarise, in http://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13875215

142. Netanyahu's family ought to be treated like the Ceaushescu's family (25 thumbs up, 3 thumbs down)
[Romania's Soviet-era dictator, he and his wife were shot]

Hi Yuyutsu

Thanks for "What I read is that Israel used overall more explosives than in World-War-II, most of it by air-bombs"

The US Smithsonian records http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/seventy-years-world-war-two-thousands-tons-unexploded-bombs-germany-180957680/

"Between 1940 and 1945, U.S. and British air forces dropped 2.7 million tons of bombs on Europe, half of that amount on Germany."

Germany and Russia might have dropped 1.3 million tons in total.

The 2.7 million tons of bombs were dropped by of the order of about 10,000 UK and US heavy bombers twice a week for 5 years.

Indeed Israel which only has light fighter-bombers would need around 70,000 fighter-bombers to each drop 2 tonnes of bombs every day to get anywhere near the WWII total.

I'm no expert on the Israeli Air Force but I think we can agree that Israel having the required 70,000 fighter-bombers is quite reasonable.

Cheers Mavs

Seeing the videos of the mass destruction of block after block of homes and businesses, children begging for food in Gaza, all caused by the Zionist death squads, aka IDF, only a fool, or complete Zionist sycophant, would believe this was "targeted" and not widespread destruction designed to eliminate the Palestinian people. Absolute horror is being delivered by the Zionists onto the Palestinians. Yet we have people on this forum supporting and justifying this GENOCIDE!

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your earlier concern about my being stalked
on this forum.

I'm used to it by now. It's been going on for so long.
I am targeted. While others get away with a lot.
But I guess that's par for the course for females.
Many who used to post here have left.

Women are more likely than men to be targets of abuse
online. Bullying, intimidation, humiliation, are quite
common. You have to learn to deal with it especially
over longer periods of time. The abuse can be severe
at times in its nature and psychological impact,
(being called a murderer by the
"kudos king" was especially shocking and upsetting).

Anyway, it's people like yourself, Steele Redux, Banjo Paterson,
O Sung Wu, and so many others, that do make a difference for me.
So, again - Thank You. Not sure how long I can keep this up.
But your support means a great deal and certainly helps.

I am only human after all.

Many of the females who used to post here have left. It's quite possible that they left because of one particular female. I have always thought that to be the case.

The poor, hard done- by female theme won't work. Foxy is not a dogged ultra-Left activist who can't accept criticism just because she is female. And, the females who have disappeared were conservative or at least not as dogmatic and combative as Foxy is: again raising the possibility that she drove them off - out of embarrassment for their sex, or the superior bullsh-t detectors many of the ladies possess.

She doesn't have to “keep this up” any longer or at all. Nobody does.

Hang in there Foxy

The ghouls and fools diminish OLO.

Maverick

I wouldn't say that you are diminishing OLO. Don't be so hard on yourself. You are entitled to your opinions, no matter how odd they are.

Hi Foxy,

I can never get used of seeing images of starving children on mass, pushing forward, holding an old tin can, begging for a scoop of boiled beans in water to feed themselves. That is happening in Gaza today.

I will never forget that piece of short black and white film from 80 years ago of a little Jewish boy, so emasculated, skin and bone, to weak to stand, lying on a timber floor near death, picking up grains of wheat from the floor, and eating them. Sad!

The bigger fool believes he knows the real truth. I've heard claims that the food vans were feeding terrorists and had also been used by them for transport and fire cover.

Time for UNRWA to be held to account for the child abuse they perpetrate by substituting terrorist indoctrination for education.

Thanks Mavs for your kind words.

I've actually kept in touch with several of the females
who used to post on this forum.

Hi Paul,

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is tragic. I find myself
no longer watching the News. The images are too horrific,
as are the given accounts.

______________________________________________________________________

Talking about UNRWA?

THE FACTS ARE:

UNRWA has over 30,000 staff across the region, including
13,000 in Gaza. According to many sources UNRWA takes
seriously its responsibility to ensure that the operations
and staff adhere to UN values and core humanitarian principles.

We're told that UNRWA has always taken very seriously any
allegations regarding staff misconduct, including allegations
of neutrality breaches.

The agency takes swift action whenever any staff member is
found to have acted in contravention of its regulatory
framework. The range of disciplinary sanctions applied include,
often in combination, fines, suspension from duty, demotion and
termination of employment.

Since 2022, sixty six investigations have been done. This was
out of 30,000 staff across UNRWA, and not just in Gaza. The
investigations looked at a range of allegations related to
neutrality breaches, including alleged support for Hamas and
other groups. Some of these investigations are still ongoing.

Out of 30,000 staff - not all of which have been substantiated,
that amounts to 0.22%. Therefore there is absolutely no grounds
for a blanket description of "the entire institution as a
whole" being infiltrated.

Rather the small percentage shows that the overwhelming
majority of UNRWA's highly dedicated staff adhere to the
principles to which they commit when they join the agency.

I read recently that Isreael has a deal with the UN that UNRWA will be replaced with something more suitable after Hamas has been exterminated.

The nonsense of great-great grandchildren of genuine refugees being also treated as refugees also needs knocking in the head.

I wonder how it is possible for an anonymous poster to "keep in touch" with also anonymous ex-posters, Graham being the only one with posters' emails and real names.

More fiction, I suspect.

Contacts can be made if permission id given to the moderator.
Quite simple really.

ttbn,

Why do you care about something that's none of your business?

I think that if you could you'd bite me with your bum.

Get a life!

Dear Paul,

So long as you keep speaking of "Zionist death squads", nobody is going to take your words seriously because that is as if you were speaking of elves and goblins.

Zionism, once its goal was achieved in 1948, was replaced by the state of Israel.

Those who still speak of "Zionism" today do so because they are unwilling to admit the existence of Israel. That could be because either:

1) They believe that the whole land should be Arab.
2) They believe that Israel is only a stage on the path of being replaced by a Jewish Messianic theocracy.
3) They sympathise with the above two.
4) They consider Israel to be nothing more than a branch of the U.S.A., not an independent country.

Alternately, they are just parrots who repeat mechanically what they heard from others.

Now had the IDF been "death squads", then they would be doing an extremely lousy job of it - what kind of death squads would be warning the residents to flee before taking down their building?

ttbn

C'est toi qui es un imbécile et une goule.

Vous ne parlez même pas très bien anglais !

Mavs

Perfect summary...
http://twitter.com/HilzFuld/status/1777301113412239442

Maverick,

"You are the one who's a fool and a ghoul" would make sense as a response only if I had called you a fool and a ghoul, which I didn't.

As for your "you don't even speak English very well" the word "even" suggests that I wouldn't be able to speak French because I don't even speak my native language very well.

In plain English, you are a nincompoop and a failed smartarse.

Someone's squirming in the bull-pit.

GOOD (ONYA) MAVS!

One of the Forums far right Zionist apologists looks for any excuse to justify the wholesale murder of thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children. He wheels out some 'X' brand boofhead who does a bit of third grade maths to glibly tell all, nothing to see here, 19,000 dead civilians (his figure) is not unusual, not a bad result. His yardstick for murdering civilians is the American warmongers and how many civilians they kill. Pathetic.

" who does a bit of third grade maths"

Well if you find a 3rd grader they might explain it to you.

Sorry it went over your head Paul. But it was meant for adult consumption.

So it turns out that being an adult is mostly
Googling how to do stuff?

We need to put a lot of thought into what being an
adult means 'because it's not gonna work for many
people.

"So it turns out that being an adult is mostly
Googling how to do stuff?"

I'm sure you think that makes sense.

You'd be wrong.

Thanks Foxy

We should just ignore him.

Saves time.

"Talking about UNRWA?

THE FACTS ARE:"

Umm, that statement was made by UNRWA. Wouldn't it be better to have independent assessments instead of fig jam assessments? Like these for example:

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/08/united-nations-bigotry-towards-israel-unrwa-anti-semitism-poisons-palestinian-youth/

https://aijac.org.au/op-ed/unrwa-has-been-exposed-and-no-one-cares/

Hi Mavs,

I know I should. But it's so entertaining.
Much more fun than being the good girl.

Fester,

The statements I gave about UNRWA in my earlier link
were taken from the ReliefWeb website. The website is
a leading humanitarian information source founded in 1996.
It hosts more than one million humanitarian situation
reports, press releases, evaluations, assessments, guidelines,
maps and info graphics. It is a humanitarian information portal
supplying information on humanitarian activities worldwide.

You on the other hand gave us two links - one from the
Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD.org), which was
founded to provide education to enhance Israel's image in
North America.

The second link is from - AIJAC.org -
is the public affairs organization for
the Australian Jewish Community.
Published by the Australian Israel and Jewish Affairs Council.

And you dare to infer that the information about UNRWA is
biased?

Shame on you.

Hamas has rejected yet another ceasefire offer. This time the reasons are more disturbing.

The offer was for a 6 week ceasefire and the release of 700 terrorists in return for 40 hostages. The offer was rejected because Hamas says there are no longer 40 hostages still alive. FYI there are over 130 hostages unaccounted for and of those less than 40 (if any) survive.

There is no longer any reason for Israel to hold back. Go into Rafah and remove scourge that is Hamas from the planet.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International shows its true colours by lamenting the death of Walid Daqqa[h].

"The death in custody of Walid Daqqa, a 62-year-old Palestinian writer who was the longest-serving Palestinian prisoner in Israeli jails after 38 years of imprisonment, is a cruel reminder of Israel’s disregard for Palestinians’ right to life."

For our low information members, Daqqah was in prison for kidnapping a 19 yr old Jewish boy, gouging out his eyes, methodically cutting of various body parts, followed by castration and then finally murdering him. Amnesty treated this maniac like a hero.

They're not on the side of human rights, they're just on the other side.

According to Reuters the talks in Cairo, also attended
by the Director of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA),
William Burns, have so far failed to reach a breakthrough
towards pausing the war.

This is due to Israel remaining intransignet and not meeting
ANY of the demands of the Palestinian people and their
resistance.

We're told that Hamas is going to review the proposal and
go back to the mediations with its response.

Foxy,

Here is where your site got its cut and paste, so yes it is a fig jam assessment.

https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-february-2024

As for your criticism of the articles I linked, I notice it only goes as far as them having Jewish and Israeli connections. Do you even believe that of any significance other than being another demonstration of your antisemitism?

Here is a link to another report on UNRWA's support of terrorism and child abuse.

https://www.australianjewishnews.com/time-to-dismantle-unrwa/

Fester,

Stop giving us biased information sites.

Awww!

Some of Festive's Israeli point of view (called "POV" in the business ;-) Youtubes are quite convincing.

As we wokes are fed a constant diet of "Israel is genocidal" UN lefty stuff.

Speaking of mass casualties - the IDF is getting set for its bloody Rafah offensive.

This will hit Hamas and crossfired, bombed out and starved civilians harder - as they are now crowded against Gaza's southern Wall - with nowhere to escape.

So (reports the Guardian) Penny Wong yesterday said recognition of a Palestinian state is “the only hope to break the endless cycle of violence in the Middle East – and that a two-state solution would help ensure Israel’s long-term security while undermining Hamas."

[Mav Comment: I don't agree a two-state solution is a serious suggestion in the middle of a Civil War more extreme than any in Israel's history. But anyway...]

Penny Wong used her speech to the ANU National Security College conference (in Canberra) to again urge Israel to abandon plans for a ground invasion of Rafah and warned of imminent starvation among besieged Palestinians.

[Mav Comment: From the IDF's POV they need to finish the (hoped for) elimination of Hamas. Otherwise a ceasefire will just let Hamas escape/backfill all over Gaza and even through tunnels into Egypt's Sinai territory]

So this war ain't simple.

Foxy,

So an article by UNRWA saying that all the criticism of the organisation is misinformed is evidence enough for you and articles critical of UNRWA you dismiss on the basis they were written by Jews?

What an oxygen thief.

You're welcome, Mav. Here is another for you. The same Jewish fellow as the other YouTubes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYFroPMEqg

Thanks Fester

6 minutes into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYFroPMEqg was particularly shocking

If only the Left showed solidarity to the female Muslim babies and little girls suffering in countries surrounding Israel.

UNICEF reports http://data.unicef.org/topic/child-protection/female-genital-mutilation/ updated March 2024

"Female genital mutilation (FGM) refers to “all procedures involving partial or total removal of the female external genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.”[1] FGM is a violation of girls’ and women’s human rights.

Around the world, over 230 million girls and women have been cut."
-

The World Health Organisation (WHO) reports 5 February 2024 http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/female-genital-mutilation

"Immediate complications of {Female genital mutilation (FGM)} can include:

severe pain
excessive bleeding (haemorrhage)
genital tissue swelling
fever
infections e.g., tetanus
urinary problems
wound healing problems
injury to surrounding genital tissue
shock
death."

"Long-term complications can include:

urinary problems (painful urination, urinary tract infections);
vaginal problems (discharge, itching, bacterial vaginosis and other infections);
menstrual problems (painful menstruations, difficulty in passing menstrual blood, etc.);
scar tissue and keloid;
sexual problems (pain during intercourse, decreased satisfaction, etc.);
increased risk of childbirth complications (difficult delivery, excessive bleeding, caesarean section, need to resuscitate the baby, etc.) and newborn deaths;
need for later surgeries: for example, the sealing or narrowing of the vaginal opening (type 3) may lead to the practice of cutting open the sealed vagina later to allow for sexual intercourse and childbirth (deinfibulation). Sometimes genital tissue is stitched again several times, including after childbirth, hence the woman goes through repeated opening and closing procedures, further increasing both immediate and long-term risks; and
psychological problems (depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, low self-esteem, etc.)."

Why do our Muslim brothers in the Middle East do it?

Further.

The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) reports: http://arabstates.unfpa.org/en/publications/female-genital-mutilation-arab-region .

"Female genital mutilation (FGM) is considered a human rights violation and is condemned in several international conventions and treaties. The Arab region is home to 50 million cases of FGM, accounting for a quarter of global cases."

To Iran's (populated mainly be Shia Muslims) credit "FGM as a practice is nearly universally unknown among the orthodox Shia Muslims. In Iraq and Iran, it's carried out only among the Sunni minorities." see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation#Shia_view

Fester,

I get my information from reputable sources.
You don't.

Hi Mavs,

Child maltreatment, composing physical abuse, sexual
abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, and exposure to
domestic violence is a serious public health concern
in our own country.

Its causal associations with health risk behaviour,
physical illness, and mental health problems are
well established in this country. Yet, there are
enormous gaps in our knowledge and information.

Perhaps we need to look at what's happening in our own
region?

Just saying.

"I get my information from reputable sources.
You don't."

Am I right in guessing that Jewish sources aren't reputable? Hilarious.

Fester,

You're right. They're not crazy.

Some Jewish sources are indeed - mentally hilarious!

Foxy identifies herself as anti-sematic, so avoid logical debate?

Josephus,

No you're the one who identifies Foxy as anti-semitic.

Why is it acceptable for you to support the cruel and
appaling actions and continued policies of destruction
of Israel, but not acceptable for me
to criticize their wrong doing ?

As Yoda would say -

HOLD OF ASS

YOU ARE!

It should have read:

HOLE OF ASS

YOU ARE.

Foxy

If only you truly cared about the Female Genital Mutilation of MILLIONS of Muslim babies and little girls suffering in countries surrounding Israel.

6 minutes into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYFroPMEqg is particularly shocking

UNICEF reports http://data.unicef.org/topic/child-protection/female-genital-mutilation/ updated March 2024

"Female genital mutilation (FGM) refers to “all procedures involving partial or total removal of the female external genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.”[1] FGM is a violation of girls’ and women’s human rights.

Around the world, over 230 million girls and women have been cut."

The World Health Organisation (WHO) reports 5 February 2024 http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/female-genital-mutilation

"Immediate complications of {Female genital mutilation} can include:

severe pain
excessive bleeding (haemorrhage)
genital tissue swelling
fever
infections e.g., tetanus
urinary problems
wound healing problems
injury to surrounding genital tissue
shock
death."

"Long-term complications can include:

urinary problems (painful urination, urinary tract infections);
vaginal problems (discharge, itching, bacterial vaginosis and other infections);
menstrual problems (painful menstruations, difficulty in passing menstrual blood...etc.);
scar tissue and keloid;
sexual problems (pain during intercourse, decreased satisfaction, etc.);
increased risk of childbirth complications (difficult delivery, excessive bleeding, caesarean section, need to resuscitate the baby, etc.) and newborn deaths;
need for later surgeries: for example, the sealing or narrowing of the vaginal opening (type 3) may lead to the practice of cutting open the sealed vagina later to allow for sexual intercourse and childbirth (deinfibulation). Sometimes genital tissue is stitched again several times, including after childbirth, hence the woman goes through repeated opening and closing procedures, further increasing both immediate and long-term risks; and
psychological problems (depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, low self-esteem...etc.)."

Further.

The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) reports: http://arabstates.unfpa.org/en/publications/female-genital-mutilation-arab-region .

"Female genital mutilation (FGM) is considered a human rights violation...The Arab region is home to 50 million cases of FGM, accounting for a quarter of global cases."

"FGM as a practice is nearly universally unknown among the orthodox Shia Muslims. In Iraq and Iran, it's carried out only among the Sunni minorities." see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation#Shia_view

Why do our Muslim brothers in the Middle East do it? :(

Hi Mavs,

Of course I care about the harm being done to both females
and males anywhere, not just in the middle east. The
mistreatment of any human is shocking. And why is it done?
I guess the answers are complicated and I'm no pundit.
Why does child sexual abuse, neglect, and domestic violence
occur in our own country?

In Islamic countries it is done by law, In Australia it happens as unlawful abuse. Foxy cannot tell the difference.

Hi Foxy

I can see you are avoiding criticising Muslim Arabs at all costs.

But you are the first to instil guilt into we Australian Christians or seculars.

What is it about the Left's excuses for Muslim on Muslim murder?

For example vastly more Muslims are starved or murdered by other Muslims than by Israelis.

I put your blinkered biases down to ignorance, so here's a bit of reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)#Humanitarian_situation

Hi Mavs,

No. I am not avoiding criticizing Muslims at all costs
ás you claim. I just
don't think you can lump them all into one group.

What I am trying to do is present some balance instead
of finger-pointing or going only for one side in this middle-
eastern conflict. In my view taking only one side is a
narrow and negative attitude and yes - a blinkered biased
point of view.

FGM is a manifestation of deeply entrenched gender inequality,
a fact recorded by the World Health Organization.

Although FGM is practiced in some communities in the belief that
it's a religious requirement, research shows that FGM pre-dates
Islam and Christianity. Some researchers have traced the
practice to Egypt in the 5th century BC and argue that the
geographical distribution of FGM suggests that it originated
on the West Coast of the Red Sea.

Egyptian mummies show women infibulated and this is supported
by a Greek papyrus in the British Museum dated 163 BC. There
also appears to be a link between FGM and slavery.

The reasons for the practice of FGM today according to the
World Health Organization is because of a mix of cultural,
religious, and social factors within families and
communities.

FGM happens in not only Africa, but the Middle East, Asia, and
diaspora communities in the UK, US Europe, Canada, Australia
and New Zealand. All have been affected.

FGM is illegal in Australia. This includes sending a person
overseas to have a procedure done or facilitating, supporting
or encouraging someone to have it done. A person who commits
these crimes can go to jail, whether they are a man or a
woman.

The Australian Muslim Community is not monolitic. It has
sectarian divisions and is also extremely diverse racially,
ethnically, culturally, and linguistically.

Here's a bit of reading for you:

http://bbc.com/news/world-47131052

http://abc.net.au/listen/programs/radionational-drive/female-circumcision-debate/4630478

Josephus,

Your claim that:

In islamic countries it is done by law is not quite accurate.

The practice is not required by most forms of Islam and
fatwas have been issued forbidding FGM, or favouring it.
Leaving the decision to parents, but advising against it.

However, FGM was introduced in Southeast Asia by the spread of
Shfii version of Islam's jurisprudence which considers the
practice obligatory.

All Muslims don't practice their religion in exactly the same
way. Different groups with Muslim communities espouse
parallel non-religious ethnic identities - with related
non-Muslim counterparts both in Australia and abroad.

Foxy, then stop comparing child abuse in Australia with acceptable cultural abuse in other countries. It means you are downplaying child abuse in Australia as culturally acceptable, by making it equal to abusive cultural practices.

Thanks Foxy

You are such a humanist - in a good way, of course.

Mavs

"Why do our Muslim brothers in the Middle East do it? :("

No Mav, you don't tar people with the same brush, and you'd likely only succeed in entrenching the practice as opposition would be portrayed as western oppression. Best to deal with it as a public health issue, although Gambia is about to legalise FGM on religious and cultural grounds.

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/gambia-mp-defends-bid-legalise-female-genital-mutilation-2024-04-08/

More evidence that the missile strike on the Gaza hospital car park was a failed Hamas rocket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJQQqgTRBas

Netanyahu can't restore Northern Israel without a fight with Hezbollah.
He needs to start a regional conflict and drag the US into the fight directly against Iran.

Biden siding with Israel risks alienating his Democratic party base and losing the election, he needs a show of placating his pro-Palestinian and Muslim constituents, while also appeasing his Zionist political donors.

Everything changed for Israel on October 7.
The world no longer sides with Israel the way it did.
There's no putting things back to the way it was before.

Hi Mavs,

Thank you for the compliment.

I wish it were true.

However my views do and have changed on so many
things. I'm not as sure of things as I used to
be.

Jose'

You should know all about child abuse, it was/is common practice in Australian Christian Churches. BTW what Christian Church do you attend, can you fill us in on the child abuse that went on within, and may still be going on in your church. Are you embarrassed by your own religion, that's why you wont publicly name your church?

Fester,

You've accused me of Jew bashing and Jew hatred.

I'm not into bashing anyone. Nor do I hate Jews or
anyone else. However this is what happens when you
dare to present facts that to some appear to be
unacceptable. You are not allowed to show Israel
in a negative light. Palestine - yes. Israel - No.

Even though it's Israel's unrelenting assault on
occupied Palestinian Territories that has caused by
far the greatest devastation. Its aerial bombardment
and a ground invasion of Gaza by the IDF have created
a desperate humanitarian disaster.

As military operations are carried out with little apparent
regard for civilian lives the death toll is climbing daily
and is devastating. The continued violence on an
unprecedented scale has seized the world's attention. And
the brutality inflicted on civilians in this conflict has
shocked the world.

There are so many false narratives and such high stakes
it's crucial for everyone to know how to fact-check the
information they come across.

Take care.