A 2 state solution has been the holy grail for Israel for 8 decades. From 1947 to today various versions have been negotiated with about 17 rejections from the "Palestinians" The rejections were believed to be because no Palestinian wanted to be the person responsible for the recognition of Israel.

The main obstacle is that there are no trustworthy negotiators on the Arab side as both Hamas and Fatah don't recognise Israel's right to exist and both fund terrorist movements to kill Jews.

"Today, Israelis don’t believe a Jewish state can live alongside a Palestinian one.

As it stands, they have lost all faith in a two-state solution — not that they had much to begin with, even before Hamas’ Oct. 7 attacks on southern Israel. Rather, they want bigger and better fortifications and greater vigilance in the wake of the intelligence and security lapses that failed to prevent what was clearly a long-planned pogrom."

Both Iran and Palestine want Israel obliterated. So now we know which way this civil war is going.
The destruction of the Hamas regime is a great plus for civilized persons which Iran has to be accountable. Then you may see peace in the middle east.

"The main obstacle is that there are no trustworthy negotiators on the Arab side as both Hamas and Fatah don't recognise Israel's right to exist and both fund terrorist movements to kill Jews."

It's in the Hamas Charter that they will accept a 2-State solution along the lines of the 1967 borders, but it also more or less states that they still consider everything theirs, just as Israel does.

- And so, granted, it may be naive to think they would be truly satisfied with this and would not still try to fight for more later.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

>>20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.<<

Even if it's not a perfect solution, it might be the best there is, Israel can't just ethnically cleanse the whole of Gaza so it can get it's hands on some prime real estate,
- not without having a large part of the global population turn strongly against it anyway

Both sides need to tone down their bs.
I don't see any other way, conflict forever with one side likely to take drastic measures to completely exterminate the other to remove the problem.

How else is all this likely to conclude?

There are no 2 states because the so-called "Palestinians" never wanted a state of their own.

Most of them want to reunite with Syria, while some in Gaza prefer to be part of Egypt, if only they were allowed.

The idea of a "Palestinian state" is only a war tactic, not unlike the new "independent states" of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson: the next day after independence, its people would vote (freely or otherwise) to become part of Syria.

Apart from not having a real reason to have one, an independent state is not some rose-garden, but comes with the burden of accountability - why would "Palestinians" want such a headache?

Then on the other side there is the state of Israel: unlike "Palestine", that state already exists, but more Israelis, especially under Netanyahu's rule, are gradually realising that having a Jewish state has been an historical mistake.

All they (or their grandparents) wanted was to escape the fear of European pogroms as well as the incessant nagging of Rabbis, but now they discover that living in Israel does not free them from either. They were out for a free, peaceful and secular Hebrew state but instead they got a warring Jewish state under an aspiring dictator and gangs of fanatic Messianic Jews to serve as his SS.

Each side must sort out its internal issues first, but the leaders - Netanyahu and Sinwar, prefer an eternal war in order to prevent exactly that.

- You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

There is no possibility of a two state solution.
It is about time that US, UK, France Australia etc etc etc realise it.
It is in fact blasphemy to suggest it.
Land once conquered by moslams remains Islamic land forever.
Notice in western countries eg France & Australia how once moslems
start buying houses in an area it never goes backward.
No moslem is allowed to sell land to a nonmoslem.
The moslems cannot even offer to buy Israel from the Jews. They own it already.

This is the reason the Middle East problem is unsolvable.
Try convincing our politicians of that !

Dear Bezza,

«Land once conquered by moslams remains Islamic land forever.»

That is one very extreme way of interpreting the Quran.

Firstly, not all Muslims share that interpretation.
Second, this applies only when Muslims are strong - when weak they can compromise.

Here is a different Muslim view:
http://www.alislam.org/faq/jihad-terrorism/
http://www.ahmadiyya-islam.org/questions/?topic%5B%5D=jews

Totally agree with AC on this. The formation of the state of Israel post WWII by the colonial powers is one of the great blunders of history. The Arab world gave it their best shot to obliterate Israel in 1967, and they failed badly, and they've had no stomach for a repeat ever since, realising Israel with US backing is far to strong. The question now is what becomes of the 5 million Palestinians? Other Arab countries don't want them, Israel certainly don't want them, and no one else wants them. The Palestinians want a homeland of their own. Hamas realise that is only achievable through a two state solution, even the friends of the Israelis realise that is the only solution. The only people who wont accept that are the hard line Zionists within the Israeli government and people.

The actions of Hamas on October 7th, was a desperate act by a desperate people, doomed to failure. Where to from here? If the Zionists have their way most of the Palestinian people will be exterminated, and the remainder will become a subservient underclass serving the Jews.

Many experts believe that if a two state solution is not
achieved the result will continue to be a "one state reality
akin to apartheid."

Hi Yuyutsu,
"Most of them want to reunite with Syria, while some in Gaza prefer to be part of Egypt, if only they were allowed."
Well, that's what self-determination means, which was originally promised to them to fight the Ottomans...
That's how this whole damn mess got started in the modern era, they were lied to back when it wasn't as much of a contentious issue to colonise and displace existing inhabitants that were routinely not even considered to be people.
- You convinced me that going back any further than 1967 was unrealistic and that compromises need to be made.
The 1973 war occurred because some Palestinians were not happy about the land taken in 1967 so we know animosity goes back further than that.
And considering that thieves should never become owners (with respect to their historical connection - though I'm not sure that connection applies to Ashkenazi Jews from Khazaria) then I think it's quite a fair compromise.

Makes me think we're dealing with two kids fighting over a toy here.
"Learn to bloody share or we'll take it off you and you'll both get nothing"
- There, problem solved.

"Second, this applies only when Muslims are strong - when weak they can compromise."
That's sounds in line with what I've heard regarding Islam
- 'Make treaties when you are weak, until you are strong enough to discard them'

Hi Paul,
"The formation of the state of Israel post WWII by the colonial powers is one of the great blunders of history."
Blunder? Well, only if you think this was about a 'Home for the Jews';
It may have also been about the British / Western powers wanting a foothold in the M/E at a time when the coal era was ending and the oil era was beginning.

Hi AC,

True to a degree, I think the West had a strangle hold on ME oil, 80% of "free world" oil was in Saudi Arabia at the time, and they had that tied up though a puppet regime they had installed there, and in places like Iran, which also had oil. From a human perspective the formation of Israel was a blunder, but who cares about humans. From a political perspective it did serve 2 purposes it pissed off the Jews from Western countries. The Nazi's, simply gassed them, the Allies simply exiled them off to Palestine. Anyway the Jews were somewhat thankful of the Allies, because they had stopped the Nazis from gassing them.

There is only one solution: the total destruction of Hamas, all other Islamic terrorists, and Islam itself. The West doesn't have what it takes to do that anymore, so the mayhem will continue; it will become so boring that it will cease to be mentioned.

Dear Critic,

«Well, that's what self-determination means, which was originally promised to them to fight the Ottomans...»

While they may decide to raise the Syrian flag, it is geographically impossible to connect the West Bank with Syria... well, not unless Syria fights Jordan and manages to grab Jordanian territories, or unless "Palestinians" win all the way "from the river to the sea". Syria will remain hostile to Israel (and Jordan) for the foreseeable future, regardless of any peace agreement or a Palestinian state.

The British could not promise anything to Palestinians simply because they were none as such. They did give a vague promise to Arabs in general:

"the British had also promised Arab nationalists that a united Arab country, covering most of the Arab Middle East, would result if the Ottoman Turks were defeated." - http://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine

"In order to enlist the military and political support of the Arabs, Britain promises to support their struggle for independence in most of the lands hitherto ruled by the Ottoman Turks, presumably including Palestine" - http://www.bu.edu/mzank/Jerusalem/p/period7-1-1.htm

Either way, Arabs did not play any significant role in the first-world-war: the locust plague did more. The corrupt Ottoman Empire was already crumbling, the Turkish soldiers were hungry and the British were winning anyway.

«The 1973 war occurred because...»

Because Egypt found an opportunity to try and regain its Sinai peninsula, and Syria to try and regain its Golan Heights.

The later-called "Palestinians", who at the time considered themselves just "Arab", were quite happy at the time to be under Israeli administration, because the Jewish settlers have not yet arrived and they flourished economically like never before, enjoying plenty of Israeli+international tourism and employment opportunities in Israel. AT THE TIME, Israel treated them relatively better than did Jordan.

Even then, the occupation was already corrupting the Israeli society from within, but that's a separate story.

«Makes me think we're dealing with two kids fighting over a toy here.»

That would have been a child's play... but adults fail to take the toy away because they mistakenly think there're only two kids there.

Hi ttbn,
"There is only one solution: the total destruction of Hamas, all other Islamic terrorists, and Islam itself."
- At least you have the kahunas to say what you mean, which is somewhat difficult in today's society.

In the Palestinians case, I think they have a legitimate case to resist occupation and oppression, regardless of religion - I think of it more of a human rights, ethnic cleansing and land theft issue, essentially a humanitarian issue over and above Islam.

But I'm not going to argue that the growth of Islam in western countries doesn't represent a risk to western citizens, because I think it does.
- But that's 'jihad' holy war you're selling, and we can expect crazy Islamists running around our streets attacking the non-Muslims.
- And on the other side, our woke leaders will continue to promote multiculturalism and diversity and allow their numbers to increase, even assisting it.
That said, Muslims are now Australians too, and we have 'freedom of religion' despite all religions having some faults and drawbacks, so what do we do?

March off the cliff?
- I don't know.

Hi Yuyutsu,
Thanks for the info, I'm no historian, just a hack that watches a lot of youtube videos, but a lot of those youtube videos provide valuable insight that we aren't getting elsewhere, and we should be better informed as a country and society.
Democracy doesn't mean anything if a country is satisfied keeping it's citizens in the dark.

Do we need a 'Ministry of Truth'?
- probably not, we all know how that would go.
'Compromised for the interests of others, for anyone EXCEPT the citizens'

"The Arab world gave it their best shot to obliterate Israel in 1967, and they failed badly, and they've had no stomach for a repeat ever since".

Well there was a little thing called the Yom Kippur War in 1973!! Paul's historic knowledge, or lack thereof, is astounding.

The two state solution is effectively dead in the water. Over the decades the Israelis supported and worked toward creating a liveable Levant region where Jew and Arabs (who call themselves Palestinians) could live in relative harmony between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

But that all unravelled following the disaster that was/is Gaza. Israel took the unilateral decision to pull out of Gaza, even to the point of physically dragging its people out of their Gazan homes. The region was turned over to the so-called Palestinians with the promise of massive international and Israeli financial assistance to make Gaza a type of Singapore on the West Mediterranean with flavours of the French Riviera.

It all unravelled in two years, and before they knew it, Hamas was lobbing rockets into Israel. There were lulls and occasional hopes that peace might prevail but the various Intifadas culminating in the rape of 7/10 have bought an end to the decades old hopes.

Israel will never make the Gazan mistake again.

Hi mhaze,
"The two state solution is effectively dead in the water. Over the decades the Israelis supported and worked toward creating a liveable Levant region where Jew and Arabs (who call themselves Palestinians) could live in relative harmony between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea."

It was probably dead in the water decades ago, the moment Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, after Netanyahu was encouraging all the lunatic settlers to rise up, and then 'strangely' found himself on the throne.

If it's dead in the water, than that's because Netanyahu spent the last 30 years devoted to making it so.

I hate these kinds of arguments.
It's a metaphor of pushing someone down a flight of stairs to make them a paraplegic.
- And then making fun of them or discriminating against them for being in a wheelchair.

If 'the two state solution is effectively dead in the water' then that's because willfully Israel made it so, along with all the horrible things they've done to the Palestinians since 1995 included.
- Don't talk to me about Israel tried to do things the right way, because that's bs, they never did.

Mhaze,

Paul is a typical jew hating gangreen with a big mouth and tiny brain.

Hamas were a bunch of murderers and rapists masquerading as a government. Oct 7th showed them committing every war crime in the book with a few more invented on sovereign Israeli land i.e. Israeli before 1967, They need to be destroyed.

The men and women of Gaza openly supported Hamas and cannot plead innocence.

AC,

Not a word about Israel's open gesture toward peace by via the Gazan disengagement process. That's about what we've come to expect. Ignore any facts that disprove the narrative.

Israel gave the Gazans the chance at independence and prosperity. They instead chose war and destitution which the usual suspects then blamed on their go-to scape-goat...the evil Jews.

Hi mhaze,
"Not a word about Israel's open gesture toward peace by via the Gazan disengagement process. That's about what we've come to expect. Ignore any facts that disprove the narrative."

Honestly that's a screwed up mentality you have there;
Criticising me for omitting information that you believe I'm omitting deliberately, when I'm actually not even aware of the issue you've raised, and you can just as easily add to the discussion, shared the information and enlightened us all yourself.

I'm not a historian, or an old school diplomat, or the living embodiment of the World Book Encyclopedia you know.

"Israel gave the Gazans the chance at independence and prosperity. They instead chose war and destitution which the usual suspects then blamed on their go-to scape-goat...the evil Jews."
- I watched this video around the end of November last year with Alastair Crooke, and old school British diplomat - and he went through all the wars and significant events in Modern Israels history in detail.
I've been meaning to go back and re-watch the video if I can find the right one, to use and share the info in my comments, but never got around to doing so.
- But he said the Palestinians were never really offered a fair deal, were never ever offered any kind of peace deal that wasn't one that wasn't swayed more in Israels interests, and he demonstrated a good knowledge of Israels history.

And I have to go with that which people smarter and more knowledgeable on the subject say, who I feel are trustworthy sources when I haven't taken the time to look at every single issue in depth myself.

I'm pointing out that the Gazans throwing the chance of a free and prosperous homeland back in the faces of the Israelis and instead using the opportunity to use the land the Israelis had freely withdrawn from as a base to attack and kill Israelis, was the final nail in the 2 state proposal.

Not being aware of it means that any claims about knowing the solution to the Levant's woes is mere cant.

Dear Critic,

What Mhaze tells is correct:

Between Rabin and Netanyahu there was an Israeli Prime Minister named Ariel Sharon and he initiated this brave unilateral and complete withdrawal from Gaza, and even from a section of the northern West Bank, in 2005, in the hope that the Gazans will be free, happy, grateful and preserve the peace.

Israel has not settled Gaza since.

Sharon was truly courageous because he dared to face the fierce Jewish settlers.

In turn, the Rabbis placed a kind of a Jewish voodoo curse on Sharon, lighting black candles and calling upon the angels of destruction to kill him. 6 months later, Sharon had a couple of major brain strokes and was left in a vegetative coma state until he died 8 years later. That same curse was earlier also placed on Yitzhak Rabin.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/sharon-not-frightened-by-ancient-jewish-death-curse-20050728-gdlrql.html

mhaze, I stand corrected in 1973, 50 years ago the Arabs did have another go "Yom Kippur War" which involved Egypt and Syria. With US supplied military hardware Israel prevailed. The situation is somewhat different today.

p/s Unlike you, I don't constantly Google stuff to get my facts.

There will be no 2 state solution, as one state, the Zionist State, is busy wiping out the inhabitants of the other state. The latest weapon employed by the Zionists is mass starvation, just like the Nazi's starved the Jews in their concentration camps, the Zionists are forcing the Palestinian people onto a starvation diet of leaves and twigs. Its estimated that thousands of Palestinians will die of starvation over the next few months.

Pauliar,

You seldom resort to facts. The Arab countries attempted the genocide of the Jewish nation in 1948, 1967, and 1973 and the murder of Jews continuously.

Most of the wars did not use US weaponry usually a hodge podge from all countries i.e. UK tanks, French Mirages etc. The move to US arms was later.

Paul wrote: " Unlike you, I don't constantly Google stuff to get my facts."

Perhaps you should.

But I didn't need to Google anything on this. I was already well aware of the details of Yom Kippur. Indeed we had a discussion of it on OLO many moons ago where I had to set SR straight on many of the facts he got wrong.

Aging myself, Yom Kippur was the first war I was old enough to understand and follow. I recall my father's distress at my 'ruining' his newspaper as I sought out the details of the manoeuvres and spending ages listening to radio reports of the fighting. It was this period when I first came to realise how pervasive was the 'fog of war'.

BTW, it wasn't just Egypt and Syria. Many other Arab states joined in on the efforts to destroy the Jewish state, including Jordan and Iraq.

In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip, redeploying its military along the border.
The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government in June 2004, and approved by the Knesset. In 2005 the Gazan strip was ethnically cleansed of every Jew, there are no Jews in Gaza. Gazans were given hope that the area would become a Singapore of the east, but what happened the rise of Hamas burned all opportunity to develop economically. They then were democratically elected to become the sovereign Government of Gaza. Once they were elected, they murdered everyone who did not agree with them.

Hi mhaze and Yuyutsu,
"I'm pointing out that the Gazans throwing the chance of a free and prosperous homeland back in the faces of the Israelis and instead using the opportunity to use the land the Israelis had freely withdrawn from as a base to attack and kill Israelis, was the final nail in the 2 state proposal."

- It's funny actually I was watching or reading something yesterday afternoon and Ariel Sharons name came up and I thought, Hmm I may have messed up earlier...

I haven't actually looked in depth at all the peace initiatives and agreements; my argument in regards to 'never offered them a truly fair settlement' is based on what I heard others say.

And truly I agreed with what he said because other things don't add up.
Even if Palestinians did reject 'a peace settlement' regardless of whether or not it was a fair one, that does not mean that Israel had a right to drive more people off the land and build more permanent settlements, with the backing of the government and the IDF.

- In fact, the continued taking of more land and building permanent settlements lends merit to the idea that this was always Israels intention, and that a truly fair settlement, one that wasn't swayed in Israel's favor was - on the face of it, totally unlikely.

For me if Israel wants to make peace, then there's really only one thing it needs to do to demonstrate it's true intentions

OFFICIALLY STATE ITS DAMN BORDERS!

But yes, I was wrong and you could've simply shared the info like someone who wished to correct misunderstandings and inform, rather than pounce on me like you were trying to level some imaginary scorecard...

I told youse (bad grammar - shoot me) I'm not a historian, political scientist, old school diplomat or the living incarnation of the World Book Encyclopedia.
I'm just a person that watches a different kind of content than the mainstream media sells us all, as many these days do.

Thanks for the info everyone, and Josephus -

"In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip, redeploying its military along the border.
The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon..."

Word that comes to mind.... 'Band-Aid'

These may have been good 'steps',
But they don't in any way represent a fair and just 'final settlement'
- That the majority of both sides will be happy to live with, as opposed to constant conflict.

I never said Hamas were perfect or that I even supported them, but I did say they are the only people that are fighting for the interests of the Palestinian people, and that they have a right to resist oppression and have their own state.

Either deal with these fundamental issues. Or don't.
- But don't expect to have peace in that neck of the woods until they're addressed.
If they want peace, both sides must be willing to make it happen.

AC, you do not get it. Understand what "From the river to the sea Palestine shall be free." It means the eradication of the State of Israel. Do you support that cause?

Amnesty International says that Israel must end its
occupation of Palestine to stop fuelling apartheid and
systematic human rights violations.

It tells us that Israel must end its brutal occupation of
Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, which it
has maintained since 1967.

Public Hearings have now begun at the International
Court of Justice to examine the legal consequences of
Israel's prolonged occupation - taking place in The Hague
19 to 26th February.

Amnesty says that they world must recognize that ending
Israel's illegal occupation is a pre-requisite to stopping
the human rights violations.

In the meantime Netanyahu has presented a plan for Gaza
when the war ends. A future plan which will place everything
under Israel's control.

Nothing is going to change.

Israel like Putin - is not about to negotiate.
Both want what they want and expect to be given it.

The United States is demanding AUSTRALIA and others take tens of thousands of UKRAINIAN REFUGEES. these people are mostly Ukrainian Jews, which it is feared will be killed by the Russians when they overrun the whole of Ukraine.

"AC, you do not get it. Understand what 'From the river to the sea Palestine shall be free.' It means the eradication of the State of Israel. Do you support that cause?"

Point 1.
For starters, both sides say it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
The phrase has also been used by Israeli politicians. The 1977 election manifesto of the right-wing Israeli Likud party said: "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." Similar wording, such as referring to the area "west of the Jordan river", has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on 18 January 2024. Some countries have considered criminalizing use of the phrase.

Point 2.
Do you think I don't know what the 2 blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent?
- Pretty much the same thing, so no offense I may not know everything but I'm not a complete fool.

But that's not the question you asked.
You asked if I supported that cause?

On some kind of moral level I do.
The Palestinians were promised self determination to rise up against the Ottomans, that's what they should've been given.
Not 80 years of 'extermination-lite'

But that's not realistic, and I support negotiations, dialogue and compromise over conflict.
Innocent peoples lives are just as important as lines on a map.

For this reason I DO support a 2 state solution as some kind of compromise or end to the conflict.
And after what Israels been doing I'm not sure Israel deserves it's own state, but the alternative is more innocent dead.

You all know I can be stubborn and harsh, and I've said before that if Israels right to exist means endless subjugation, persecution, oppression, execution, genocide etc, - all I've seen in these last few months and more, and all for land theft - then I don't support Israels right to exist.

I don't support an endless continuation of all this killing of innocent people.
Do you get that?

Go look at the land changes in 48.
Thieves should never become owners.
But this is 100+ years of displacement, since the first boat loads of Israeli immigrants started coming in 1918.
80+ years since the founding of Israel, by terrorism.
All these years of hostilities.

I just want people to be able to live in peace and with dignity.
Have families, build a home and have a happy life.

"The United States is demanding AUSTRALIA and others take tens of thousands of UKRAINIAN REFUGEES."

I haven't seen any such request. Evidence please.

Not that I'm opposed mind you. Ukrainian refugees would be far preferable to the MENA refugees we've been taking recently. Jewish refugees even more so.

".... Russians when they overrun the whole of Ukraine."

Even if the Russians do break the will to resist of the Ukrainian forces, they won't overrun the whole nation. They have neither the will nor the capacity to do so. But more importantly, the Poles would take the opportunity of the collapse of Ukraine to occupy west Ukraine which they already claim should be theirs anyway. Remember that places like Lviv have been part of various Polish states for most of its history including the inter-war Poland of 1921-1939.

"since the first boat loads of Israeli immigrants started coming in 1918."

We've been over this before but just to reiterate, European Jews started arriving in the Levant long before 1918. Indeed there's always been some Jewish presence there.

Larger Jewish immigration to the region began in in the mid-19th century encouraged by the Ottomans who saw that the Jews could make the land prosperous and therefore profitable to the Ottomans where the Arabs had failed. Equally the Arabs were happy to sell what they thought of as useless land to the Jewish immigrants. So from c1850 to 1890 the Jewish population grew from a few percent of the total to around 10% and by 1914 they made up close on 15% of the region's demographics. All before the British got involved.

Fuhrer Netanyahu has said there will be no two state solution, just the final solution! According to the Zionist there will be no Palatine, just Greater Israel populated by Israelis and the few former Palestinians that survive, they will be an Arab servant underclass, serving the Jews.

Dear Critic,

«the continued taking of more land and building permanent settlements lends merit to the idea that this was always Israels intention»

Indeed it does, but having merit without research is not enough to make the above idea correct, certainly not the "always" part of it.

Before Netanyahu, several Israeli governments tried to resist the Jewish settlers. Not all succeeded, but they tried. The fanatic Jewish settlers threatened the life of IDF officers and their families and at times their threats managed to stop the army from evacuating them. While various Israeli governments were AFRAID of these bloody settlers, that does not mean that they liked their activities.

«For me if Israel wants to make peace, then there's really only one thing it needs to do to demonstrate it's true intentions»

It is a common mistake to consider Israel (as well as the "Palestinians" for that matter) to be a single entity with clear "wants" or "intentions".

Israel is deeply divided from within, it is nonsensical to speak of it as one. One main chunk of Israel's population wants to make peace, but the chunk which presently holds government does not.

«If they want peace, both sides must be willing to make it happen.»

Again, the word "both" ignores the fact that there are more than two sides in there. Some want, others don't.

«you could've simply shared the info like someone who wished to correct misunderstandings and inform, rather than pounce on me like you were trying to level some imaginary scorecard...»

I think that I did the former. Have I not?

---

Dear Foxy,

«Nothing is going to change.»

Israel's prime minister is!

Why are you so impatient and pessimistic?
Netanyahu's reign is measured in months only, 3 or 4 in my estimate.

---

Dear Paul,

«Fuhrer Netanyahu has said there will be no two state solution»

Yes, but Fuhrer Netanyahu is not going to stay.
(and he is not a Zionist either, only an opportunistic felon on the run)

Yuyutsu,

I'm not pessimistic just facing the reality that has
lasted for decades. If Netanyahu is ousted there is
no guarantee that his replacement will be any better
or that anything will change. It hasn't done so over
the years of brutality and apartheid.

After the war, Netanyahu intends to control security in Gaza, with Palestinians not hostile to Israel running the Strip. Finding Palestinians not hostile to Israel won't be easy!

US recommends the Palestinian Authority, but Netanyahu doesn't mention them. He is not keen on them, apparently. And the leader of the PA has already said that the plan is doomed. There seems to be no way to deal with those people other than bringing them to heel militarily, and permanently.

But, all military except that needed to maintain law and order would be removed, according to the plan. Good luck with that, Mr. Netanyahu and who ever gets the job next.

If Israel thinks that it can continue to
control millions of people without rights,
with unlimited occupation forever. That this will
always work . Who are we to argue.

Dear Foxy,

«If Israel thinks that»

Israel does not and cannot think - only sentient beings can.

Israelis do think, a lot actually actually, but each thinks differently.

Here is a very partial list of what different Israelis think:

* We cannot control them, therefore we must kill them.
* If we do our little bit, then God will take care of the rest.
* Millions of people? they are not people.
* We do not control anyone.
* We don't want to control anyone, just let them leave our God-given land.
* But they do have rights, more than they deserve.
* The occupation will not be forever, only until they stop hating us.
* We cannot control them, they will eventually kill us all, that's why I keep a foreign passport.
* We cannot control them forever, but we can stem the tide for a while.
* Let us control them while I live, who cares what happens afterwards.
* I don't control anyone, Netanyahu does and that's his problem.
* It's them who control us.
* Just build a big wall between us and them, then hope for the best.
* It is better that the Jewish settlers are over there in the West Bank, harassing them and not us.
* It is their own leaders who control them, not us.
* We tried to help, feed and caress them, but they bit our hand.
* Just give them more of what they want, perhaps they will be happy.
* I rather sit and wait until they come and kill me.
* The rest of my family has already left, I am just waiting for my European visa to join them.
* Better if I could be a Palestinian - at least they don't have to go to the army.
* We too are Jewish Palestinians under Zionist control.
* I wish I could do something else.
* What a joke - I cannot even control my own life.

Without peace, one by one the good Israelis are leaving - the bad ones are staying, and multiplying.

Apropos Jews moving into the Levant in the first half of the 20th century.

"The Jews point with pride to the fact that over 500,000 Arabs, in the 12 years between 1932-1944, came into Palestine to take advantage of living conditions existing in no other Arab state ..."

Robert Kennedy, 1948 after visiting the British Mandate on behalf of the Boston Post.

Good Morning Yuyutsu,

I can't see Israel having a future in the Middle-East
without shedding its colonial regime and embracing
normal statehood. The Gaza war may well be the
beginning of the end for Israel. Just as apartheid in
South Africa's supremacist regime imploded - so will
Israel's, sooner or later

Dear Foxy,

Perhaps you are correct - I don't claim to see the future, I don't even have a crystal ball.

Just like you, I am utterly disgusted at some of the things that happen in Israel, but unlike you, I have family and friends there and so I rather sacrifice millions of "Palestinians", whom I never even met, than have any of them lose a finger.

Following the collapse of Apartheid, and against all odds, white people not only survived but even kept their properties. I attribute that to the generous peaceful nature of the Bantu people, yet that has not been the case in neighbouring Rhodesia, where many white farmers were murdered and all white farms confiscated.

According to past experience, the "Palestinians" do not share the Bantus' generosity and peacefulness and I wouldn't be counting on miracles for Israel to end up more like South Africa and not more, if not even worse, like Rhodesia.

While Israel's present government is fighting for some lunatic Jewish Messianic pipe-dreams, the Israeli people are fighting for their survival alone, so they don't end up like white Rhodesians, probably much worse.

And being more desperate and better armed than the Afrikaaners at the time, should Israel end and my family killed, then nobody else whatsoever will be able to inhabit that radioactive region for millennia.

The beginning of the end of Israel was when Israel took the bait in 1967 and retained the cursed territories it then took in 6 days.

" so will Israel's [regime implode], sooner or later"

I guess there's nothing wrong with fantasising about some future where your fondest hopes come true, when reality constantly shows that your understanding of the real world is hopelessly wrong.

So when will this fantasy-land come to fruition?
"In the year 2525,
if man is still alive,
if woman can survive,
They may find"

" I don't claim to see the future,"

Well its difficult to see the future when the present is so opaque to you...

"white people not only survived but even kept their properties. I attribute that to the generous peaceful nature of the Bantu people..."

Struth.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/south-africa-farm-attacks-brutal-crimes-landowners-face/news-story/dfaabafca743056b6d6656ea1fff49eb

"The United States is demanding AUSTRALIA and others take tens of thousands of UKRAINIAN REFUGEES."

I haven't seen any such request. Evidence please.

And silence came the stern reply.

Just another thing that gets made up in the hope it'll slip through. A bit disappointing...I was hopeful that we might have been able to substitute MENA refugees for people more suited to integrating into our culture.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Your feelings are perfectly understandable
having family and friends in Israel.

However Israel's deliberate
murder of the Palestinian people under the pretext of
"self defence" will not enhance its security or secure its
future. Rather it will produce greater insecurity and
instability and further isolate Israel and undermine its
chances for long-term survival in a predominantly
hostile region.

It needs to shed its colonial regime and embrace normal
statehood

Palestinians are to blame for everything that is happening to them. They backed Hamas, knowing what they were like, and now they are paying for it.

Hi Yuyutsu,
«you could've simply shared the info like someone who wished to correct misunderstandings and inform, rather than pounce on me like you were trying to level some imaginary scorecard...»
I think that comment above was actually a response to mhaze's comment saying I willfully omitted information about peace initiatives.
It wasn't a response to anything you said, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Dear Foxy,

There are no grounds to believe that Israel deliberately murders "Palestinian" civilians (other than Hamas members).

It is a difficult question of balancing how much to risk one's own soldiers versus risking enemy civilians.
You may claim that Israel does not have that balance right, but that does not amount to murder.
Think carefully what balance would you strike if the soldier at risk was your child.

«It needs to shed its colonial regime and embrace normal
statehood»

The result on the ground may be colonial, but the mentality is not - the mentality is Messianic-Jewish, the superstition as if the state of Israel, which between us is only a secular entity, is any more than that, a stage in the mystical redemption of ancient Israel (which historically, as we now know, was not even Jewish), that the state of Israel plays a mystical role in bringing forth the Jewish Messiah, descendant of [the evil] King David who would rule over Israel, expand its territory, rebuild its temple [engulfing Jerusalem with the stench of burnt animals] and prepare the people for the revival of the dead.

- What would you not do in order to see your grandparents again...

To change that mentality, if it were up to me, I would convert Israel from a Jewish state into a Jewish-friendly state.

Hell's Bells! Military operations against terrorists is murder, but October 7 terrorism by Hamas and 'ordinary' Palestinians is put aside. We sure have some very trashy, bigoted anti-Semitics on this site.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Unfortunately, it isn't up to us and Israel has been
condoning its actions against the Palestinian people
under the pretext of "self-defence" for decades. Unless
they shed their colonial regime and embrace normal
statehood - well, we all know the outcome.

"There are no grounds to believe that Israel deliberately murders 'Palestinian' civilians (other than Hamas members).

Were not talking one or two here Yuyutsu.
We're not talking about something that can be written off as a genuine mistake or accident.
We're talking 30,000 innocent civilians.

'Oops, my bad, I accidentally killed 30 thousand innocent people...'
- That's the argument you're making when you say it's not deliberate.

Only Israel isn't even claiming it was an accident.
Every bomb Israel dropped, it knew innocent people would die.
But they don't have to carry this weight on their shoulders do they?
- If they tell themselves there are no innocent people in Gaza to begin with.

Dear Critic,

«Every bomb Israel dropped, it knew innocent people would die.»

The bombs need to be dropped in order to save lives of Israeli soldiers.
Had they not been dropped ahead of the IDF ground-forces advance then Israel would have suffered many more casualties than the 580 soldiers killed so far, apart from many more wounded.

You may not like that motive, but it is not to kill any civilians.

Israel went out of its way to inform innocent civilians about coming attacks and ask them to leave so they do not get hurt. Of course innocent civilians are killed as well, as well as Hamas fighters and not-so-innocent civilians, especially civilians who hide weapons, ammunition and rockets in their homes, or who inform Hamas exactly where the IDF forces are stationed, that is a statistical risk in every war, that is the reality of war. Whenever Israel is aware that bombing a certain site would kill innocent civilians with certainty rather than statistically, and unless Israeli soldiers there are not at immediate danger and need rescuing, it stops the fire and delays that bombing.

Again, you may not like this policy, but it does not amount to murder.

AC 30,000 killed the bulk Hamas supporters, 7,000 were women and children as Hamas human shields. Hamas considered them all civilians.

From Jerusalem.
"The IDF has presented a plan to evacuate Gazan civilians from Rafah to the Israeli war cabinet, according to Israeli media, citing an announcement from the Prime Minister's Office early Monday morning.

According to the reports, the plan is focused on removing civilians from combat zones, but no further details were provided.

The IDF also reportedly approved a plan for distributing humanitarian aid in Gaza that will prevent looting that occurred by Hamas in other areas of the Gaza Strip." Quote.

Yuyutsu,

Israel's deliberate industrial
scale attacks on the Palestinian people under the
pretext of "self defence" is murder and a war crime
according to Amnesty International and International
Law.

Foxy

However Hamas's deliberate murder/rape of the Jewish people under the pretext of "resistance" will not enhance its security or secure its
future. Rather it will produce greater insecurity and instability and further isolate Gaza and undermine its chances for long-term survival in a predominantly hostile region.

Shadow Minister,

People can't keep claiming victim status - when they
cause the problems in the first place and then justify
their actions under the pretext of "self-defence." when
the injured parties fight back. Israel's needs to shed
its colonial regime.and embrace normal statehood.

Israel is doing what it must do to survive; and what bigoted, ant-Semitic nutjobs and keyboard theorists think will not make a jot of difference - their constant ramblings are a disgrace and an insult to decency, to Jewish Australians, and Australia's reputation for one being one of the few countries in the world where Jews have always been safe.

Speaking from Israel, Andrew Bolt reports that, apart from a tiny majority, Israelis of both the Left and Right want the war fought and won. The war will not be stopped because big-mouthed ignoramuses in the West think it should be.

Bolt reminds us of the Palestinian “victims” still claiming to be refugees after 76 years. Only by UNRWA are the great grandchildren of actual refugees classed as refugees, when real refugees elsewhere have moved on and made lives for themselves without blaming and hating other people and wanting to kill them.

https://youtu.be/g5bDJmTmNUE?si=5bX6JpdMYWJ0ozhJ

Foxy,

I agree, Hamas can't keep claiming victim status - when they
cause the problems in the first place and then justify
their actions under the pretext of "resistance." when
the injured parties fight back. Hamas needs to shed
its genocidal nature and embrace normal statehood.

Dear Foxy,

«Israel's deliberate industrial
scale attacks on the Palestinian people under the
pretext of "self defence" is murder»

That would be the case had it indeed been just a pretext.

It is not.

The fact that Israel's present government also has other goals in mind, sinister goals even, makes no difference to that simple fact.

The injured party which fights back, is Israel.

«Israel's needs to shed
its colonial regime.and embrace normal statehood.»

From my vantage point I can understand what you are saying,
yet most Israelis would have no clue what you talk about any more than Inca emperor Atahualpa when he was given a Bible, that is if you wish to influence anyone rather than just talk to yourself.

While the Israeli occupation could resemble colonialism in some ways, all the average Israeli ever heard about colonialism is that "In 1948 we managed to kick out the British colonial enemy".

Nobody in Israel would even imagine that when you mention 'colonialism' you could be talking about them.

Yet if you mention "Messianic Judaism" instead, then everyone there would know exactly what you are talking about.

Israel's needs to shed its Messianic Judaism and become a friendly space for normal Israelis.

---

Dear Ttbn,

Better not involve Jews, certainly not Australian Jews in this debate: associating Israel with Jews or Jews with Israel, can only place both in harms way. We are seeing this already.

Yuyutsu,

Simon Tisdall writes:

"Israel has no inborn right to act in defiance of
international norms and laws. It's problems and
challenges are not unique. Occupation is toxic to
security, legitimacy, and recognition. An independent
Palestine is necessary, desirable, and inevitable."

"For their country to flourish, more Israelis must
accept these truisms and reject governments and leaders
who believe and behave otherwise."

Well said.

Tisdall says that Israel has a choice between a successful
inclusive democracy at peace with its neighbours or a
nation sliding into authoritarianism, or worse, forever
under siege.

See you on another discussion. Bye.

Dear Foxy,

I have no idea why you needed to bring in this fellow, Tisdall, whoever he may be and who cannot spell "Its" correctly:

Professor Leibowitz, who was a renowned observant orthodox Israeli Jew, has essentially said the same already in 1967 (though he did not mention "Palestinians" because there were none at the time, he used "Arabs" instead):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMLxjZ4ZUPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNd4Vinfks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz-QMDPW5RM

THE BIG PICTURE !
I read about the time when the Arab armies had been charged with
extending Islam into Egypt, Persia and India that they were also
charged with conquering Rome.
I cannot find the reference again, perhaps Yuyutsu may be able to help there.
Anyway the upshot seems to be following the attempt at holding Europe
and Spain in particular, for some hundreds of years the Islamists
still have Mohammad's command in mind.
It appears they have to settle the Middle East before they can make
a full blown assault on "Rome".
So the Jews who are the number one target must be eliminated first.
Those who think settling the ME down will finish it all are badly mistaken.

Dear Bezza,

Arabs, Jews, Christians and other Middle-Eastern and North-African tribes, have all been making wars and conquests long before the split in Christianity which became Islam, around the 10th century.

If them who seek to kill and conquer are able to [ab]use the name of Muhammad, peace-be-upon-him, to justify their wars, then they will unsurprisingly do so, otherwise they will some other lame excuse to do whatever is on their mind.

A missive that Hamas Nukhba (elite) militants received in the early morning of October 7th 2023, explained why they should do certain things (such as raping corpses and killing babies) despite the holy Quran forbidding it - where there is the will, so will be the excuse!

"Tisdall says that Israel has a choice between a successful
inclusive democracy at peace with its neighbours or...."

How stupid is this guy? at no time have Hamas or Fatah ever attempted non-violence.

At no time has Israel offered peace negotiations that
were not to be entirely under their control or did
they ever agree to withdraw their
occupations. A two state solutions was never a viable
and fair option offered. What's good for the goose...

Israel has always been accused of genocide in Gaza; in military engagements with Hamas in 2009, 2012 and 2014, the genocide word was coming out of the backside of the usual anti-Semitic Israel haters, just as it is today.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, the Gazan population was 1.3 million. Today, the population is 2 million.

If Israel is trying to commit genocide, they are not very good at it.

More than 30,000 have been killed in Gaza since the war
began with fears of an imminent famine mounting.

General calls for Palestinian equality is not
anti-Semitic and protests and critiques of Israel
in defence of Palestinian rights is also not anti-Semitic.

Of course genuine anti-Semitism must be identified and
fought, but so must efforts to silence and squash ligit
protest of Israel's policies by conflating it with
anti-Semitism.

By understanding the mythology underlying anti-Semitism
hopefully both of these things can be achieved.

"How stupid is this guy? at no time have Hamas or Fatah ever attempted non-violence."

They have no obligation whatsoever to submit to non-violence.
If they were to stage a peace protest along the border fence Israel would shoot them all.
They have every right to fight their oppressors in the goal of self determination, that was promised to them 100+ years ago.

I think Armchair that self determination means something different to
the Muslims than to the rest of us.
It has all got so boring that we go round and around every 10 years or so.
Not surprising really, their religion does not permit a change in the Plan.

An idiot was claiming that the "peaceful protesters" that were trying to scale the fence into Israel proper (as internationally recognised in 1950) and armed to the teeth had the right to kill Jews as they did on the 7th of Oct last year.

On Oct 7 they broke down the barriers and invaded Israel proper, murdered raped and decapitated women and children then ran back to Gaza to hide behind their women and children in schools, hospitals etc (which is itself a war crime.) expecting the world to shield them from retribution. However, the nature of the atrocities precluded most civilised countries from rescuing them.

Israel is busy delousing Gaza from Hamas and destroying the war infrastructure funded by UNWRA.

The "Palestinians" made their genocidal bed and must now lie in it.

Shadow Minister,

We should not blame an entire group for the actions
of extremists within that group. Surely you're
better than that. And, taking sides does not help.

Foxy, it is more than "just a group" it is a very widespread belief
that the Jews must be killed.
It was not just Hamas that entered Israel but some hundreds of those
who were not uniformed Hamas members. Just to join n the fun.
It seems from reports we are bringing into Australia some hundreds
of people from Gaza. How many are Hamas members or sympathisers ?
What could possibly go wrong ?

Hi Bezza,

Sweeping generalizations about any group does not
give you credibility. You don't allow for individual
differences and you should.

I also would hesitate in making statements about what
people's beliefs are. Suffice to say we get fundamentalists
and extremists in all religions.

As for the dangers involved as to who we bring into this country?
There's always dangers involved with any group. We never know
for sure what kind of people exist within each group. However,
our governments do have strict criterias that they apply and all
we can do is rely on them and our security forces.

Oh come on Foxy, in a group of hundreds or thousands, if you take the
most optimistic guess there would be dozens of Hamas sympathisers.
Hold on tight, you risk falling flat on your back !
How much of check did they get, one hour wasn't it ? Or no check !
The government has just been so silly, they have left us wide open to
terrorist attacks internally.
I just do not understand how you can be so naive.
You can talk so much commonsense here regularly and yet be so blind to
what is going on in plain sight.

What could possibly go wrong ?

There will never be peace in the ME until the muslims accept that it is
the Arabs who are the occupiers. They occupied all of Mesopotamiania
at Mohommad's command and his successor's commands in the 7th century.
However their religion prevents that !
There is no point arguing about it from this point onwards.

Foxy,

You said "We should not blame an entire group for the actions
of extremists within that group."

It largely depends on the number of extremists. In Gaza, this includes the 40000 Hamas terrorists, the 60 000 Hamas administrators, UNWRA who acted as facilitators for Hamas, the teachers etc that taught Hamas's poisonous ideology and finally all the "citizens who celebrated Hamas's murder and rape of women and children on Oct 7. This leaves very few innocent Gazans.

P.S. Hamas throwing gays off buildings makes Gays for Gaza ludicrous.

A word for the Arabs:

Starting a war and then losing it makes you a loser not a victim.

Gentlemen,

What's so frustrating. You never get your facts right.

Dear ShadowMinister,

«A word for the Arabs:»

The Arabs did not start a war - Hamas did.
All other Arabs were as surprised as Israel.

«Starting a war and then losing it makes you a loser not a victim.»

But are they losing?

A message from Hamas leader, Sinwar, stated:

“Don’t worry, we have the Israelis right where we want them, Hamas’s fighters, the Al-Qassam Brigades, were doing fine"
- http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1709197528-we-have-the-israelis-exactly-where-we-want-them-sinwar-tells-leaders-abroad-report

This war is a win-win situation for Hamas and Netanyahu.

And as we already know, a lose-lose for the Israeli and Gazan people.

Y,

Saying that the Arab citizens didn't start the war Hamas did. However, the Arabs did support Hamas, provided it with 10000s of soldiers and helped and cheered at the murdered and raped Israelis. The citizens of Gaza are far from blameless.

Israel has killed about 10,000 Arab terrorists and captured about the same. They have destroyed Hamas's tunnels and destroyed their weapons. Hamas is far from winning.

Also, UNWAR is being defunded depriving Hamas of future funding.

Dear ShadowMinister,

From Sinwar's perspective, everything is good and going to plan.

The suffering and death of Gazans is the least of his concerns, nor even the death of his own troops. For him they were all just chess pieces and he played them well!

Even the loss of control in Gaza, is not a big deal for him - Gaza, you know, was never the jewel in his crown... it's the crowdiest slum on earth and a gate to hell which no country is willing to take responsibility over.

Sinwar spent 22 years in an Israeli prison, and his sole purpose is revenge, to inflict as much pain on Israel as possible - and sure he does, and in so many ways!

A portion of Gazan Arabs supported Hamas before October 7th, now there are less of them - many are still afraid of Hamas returning, but others are demonstrating against Hamas and telling IDF soldiers that they would like them to stay.

OTOH, outside Gaza hardly any other Arabs supported Hamas before October 7th, and now many do - and not only Arabs, but even 20% of American citizens, more so the young, whereas American support to Israel dropped to an all-time-low of only 58%. In other countries, the lives of Israelis and even of uninvolved Jews are in danger - Israel is losing all its friends and that is far more important for Sinwar than Gaza and its people... actually even more than his own life.

Y,

I am sure that Sinwar was too stupid to expect the ferocity of Israel's response. All the defences and weapons that Hamas have built and accumulated are destroyed and the 40,000 soldiers that Hamas assembled and trained more than half have been killed or captured. And the people Hamas were meant to protect have been battered, humiliated and impoverished.

The last sighting of Sinwar was of him and his family were scuttling away before he was captured or killed. Remembering the long memory of the Israelis, Sinwar is not likely to have a long and happy life.

Dear ShadowMinister,

It is important not to underestimate your enemy.

Sinwar is intelligent, he speaks fluent Hebrew which he learned in prison, understands Israeli mentality and he is not afraid of death. In my view he expected and welcomes the ferocity of Israel's response. In my view he does not care and has no interest in protecting the people of Gaza. He is a calculated monster and needs to be treated as such.

Sinwar was not captured or killed so far.
In fact he was yesterday communicating with Hamas leadership and told Hamas global leader Ismail Haniyeh to stop the negotiations. Haniyeh was willing to sign a cease-fire deal yesterday, but Sinwar is now unwilling to return the remaining women and elderly hostages - he is even willing to return Israeli soldiers for a heavy price, but not the civilians because he understands Israeli mentality very well and knows that they are his best card.

Y,

Describing Sinwar "an evil man will destroy everything so he can rule over the ashes"

Sinwar is not as intelligent as you think, he has brought Hamas to its knees, and the hostages are not as powerful as he thinks they are. Holding the hostages enables the Israelis to purge Gaza of Hamas. They have about 10000 "hostages"

Dear ShadowMinister,

«Holding the hostages enables the Israelis to purge Gaza of Hamas.»

Holding the hostages may enable Netanyahu, but not the Israelis who are tired after 5 months of fighting: 100,000s Israelis were displaced out of their homes, both around the Gaza strip and near Israel's northern border with Lebanon, around 600 soldiers killed (probably more, that's what we are allowed to know) on top of those killed on October 7th, and while we are not officially told of the numbers, some suggest up to 20,000 soldiers wounded, many of them have lost limbs. Many businesses have also collapsed because their owners were called to reserve duty or are displaced. The Israeli villages around the Gaza strip used to produce 25% of Israel's food, but now are mostly laid bare, same on Israel's northern borders where many homes were destroyed and large chicken farms destroyed, including where 9,000 chicken were killed by just one Hezbollah rocket, also including Israel's largest fruit-packing factory which was hit and is non-operational. Meanwhile Israel is losing its few remaining friends around the globe where Jews too are exposed to a huge wave of anti-Semitism. Israel's ammunition will also not last forever, and a shortage of ammunition means greater risk and casualties to ground troops - how more so if the war in Lebanon becomes full-scale. The Israeli hostages are meanwhile starving and dying, one by one or seven by seven as we were recently told.

Israel too needs a rest, at least a temporary cease-fire, there is wailing everywhere, yet Netanyahu knows that the moment the war ends, so goes he. His crimes are too many to count, and are not limited just to ignoring the warning signs for October 7th, so he must continue the war at all costs to achieve his private victory, indeed extremely painful costs to both the Israeli people and Jews abroad.

Y are you spouting Hamas propaganda?

"The number of injured soldiers has risen to 3,053 officers and soldiers, including 1,467 since the beginning of the ground attack, according to army data. Israel has waged a deadly military offensive on the Gaza Strip since an Oct. 7 attack by the Palestinian group Hamas, which Tel Aviv said killed nearly 1,200 people"

Of these 1755 are lightly injured and will completely recover in a short period and less than 500 are facing permanent disability.

Also:

"An influential Saudi newspaper has launched an excoriating attack on the leaders of Hamas, accusing them of sacrificing the lives of ordinary Gazans for their militant cause and living in luxury while Palestinians die.

“The dismembered bodies on the roads of Gaza are a bridge to the cause,” writes Saudi journalist Muhammed al-Saed in the article in the Okaz newspaper, one of the most influential outlets in the region.

In the eyes of Hamas leaders Yahya Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh, “all of Palestine, with its men, women and children, living and dead, is not worth a toothpick,” he adds.

As the clock ticks down until the hoped-for ceasefire that negotiators are keen to have agreed before the start of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, al-Saed claims a truce will only help Hamas leaders, some of whom will use the rebuilding of the destroyed enclave to enrich themselves.

He is also critical of Palestinian “cafe activists,” who he says will “return to playing backgammon, drinking shisha, and exchanging advice on ways to immigrate to America and Britain, which they have been cursing during the past weeks,” if and when a truce between Israel and Hamas begins."

Foxy,

It has been tried nearly 17 times and ways and has always failed. The Arabs refuse to accept that Israel should exist.

Dear Shadow Minister,

«Y are you spouting Hamas propaganda?»

I very much hope that your numbers of wounded are correct, rather than the numbers suspected by my family in Israel.

As for the true motives of Hamas leaders, I can believe that Haniyeh's motives are financial, whereas I still think that Sinwar's main motive is revenge and authentic Muslim hatred of Jews. Either way, we agree that the Gazan people or "Palestine" are the very last things they care for.

Y

The source of the 20000 is Hamas whose figures are fabricated. The figures I produced were figures from soldiers admitted to hospitals in Israel.

You choose.

Dear ShadowMinister,

«The source of the 20000 is Hamas whose figures are fabricated.»

Thank you, I will discuss it with my family in Israel and try to find where they picked up that number.

Someone said the other day that if the Palestinian's are pushed back by Israel then Australia will get a lot more Palestinian refugee's. This concerns me.

Dear Canem Malum,

«if the Palestinian's are pushed back by Israel then Australia will get a lot more Palestinian refugee's»

It's a long swim, with many sharks in the tropical waters between.

Anyway, it is not Israel which pushes them, but Hamas, and well, also the Americans who drop food parcels on their heads.