The news coming out of the Middle East is dreadful.

In order to make sense of at least some of it - I thought
it might be worthwhile to learn something about the
origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness.

From the little research that I've done thus far it appears
that many Palestinians trace their collective ancestry to
the Canaanites.

Britannica and other sources tells us that archaeological
and genetic data supports that BOTH Jews and Palestinians
came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively
mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamians and Anatolian peoples.

I thought it might help us understand things better if
we learned more about the people in these regions and
why the regions are so important as to cause such dire
conflicts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#:

This is correct, Foxy.

Modern research shows that Judeans (now commonly called Jews) and Canaanites are one and the same, that they were never different people.

So most of the ones now calling themselves "Palestinians" are their descendants, Farming Jews/Judeans who never went to exile but remained on their land all along, even while most of whom later converted to Islam over the centuries.

Some Arab Bedouins/nomads also joined these Judean farmers as a minority.

Linguistic analysis of the native names of people, villages, hills and rivers in Israel correspond to the dialect of the Jews in the first millennium much more than to the Arabic language.

Yuyutsu, with my limited knowlege the history I thought it was along
that line. From what I read the Arab armies, which were then sent on
a mission to take Islam to the rest of the world.
Most Canaanites and Jews became moslems at the point of a sword or the Jizaz tax.

Actually Islamic terror it is still going on.
I have just read of an account in Mozambique and a record of the
slaughter in that country. There are dozens of raids on Christian
villages every year. It is the same religious hatred.
They kill from 10 to 100 each time.
Will they ever start on us if we do not convert ?

Dear Bezza,

«From what I read the Arab armies, which were then sent on
a mission to take Islam to the rest of the world.»

They couldn't spread Islam before there was Islam - they started as a heretic Christian sect which denied the trinity, claiming that God is only one, not three. It then took them some centuries to completely separate from Christianity.

«Most Canaanites and Jews became moslems at the point of a sword or the Jizaz tax.»

Most Canannites=Jews became Muslim by the latter, gradually, one by one, because they wanted to avoid the tax.
The Christians-turned-Muslims that conquered them preferred their money over their souls.

The tale of "Canaanites" was invented at the time of Judaic King Josiah (640-609 BCE), because the King and his priests were too embarrassed to admit the fact that all the Jews before them worshiped the local fertility idols in their temples, including the Jerusalem temple, rather than the new true god, so they claimed kind of, "those who worshipped the idols were not us, they were 'Canaanites' and we conquered them...".

«Will they ever start on us if we do not convert ?»

There are indeed some bloodthirsty people around who would try to kill anyone they believe to be weaker then them. We have seen time and again that if the ones they find to be weaker are non-Muslims then they will use the excuse of Jihad, but if they happen to be Muslims, or if they convert but do not exhibit total surrender and loyalty to their gang, then they will find some other excuse to do the same!

If you call these pirates "Islamic", then you deny the goodwill of all other Muslims, especially Sufis and Ahmadiyyans who also believe in the Koran but interpret it differently and peacefully. For example, they believe that "Jihad" means an internal war within one's psyche for one's good qualities to win against their evil qualities.

According to recent genealogical studies, there is good evidence that the Philistines, who of course gave their name to the region, were descended from Greek settlers. Greece, it is well known, went through a period of significant colonisation in the centuries around 1000 BC, settling in southern Italy, Sicily, southern Gaul ( Massalia ie Marseilles) and up into the Euxine and Crimea...and, it seems, in the region now called Gaza.

The Philistine culture was extremely successful. Its possible that they were the originators of the concept of an alphabet.

The rise of the Neo-Assyrian empire saw the demise of the Philistine culture and it disappeared into history, save for the name which remained a generic term for the region and was used by Rome to designate its province.

To Hell with the origins of Palestinians, you anti-Semite.

Be fair ttbn. I am sure that they were only following orders.

Here's a little factoid some people here should pay attention to.

The 'No' voters won the recent Voice referendum.
The 'Yes' voters lost, they are the minority;
- They should accept it and stop carrying on.

In comparison...
There was another recent 'referendum'

The 'Yes' voters won the referendum.
The 'No' voters lost, they are the minority;
- They should accept it and stop carrying on.

What was this referendum?

UN General Assembly adopts Gaza resolution calling for immediate and sustained ‘humanitarian truce’
http://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847

>>The United Nations General Assembly on Friday adopted a resolution calling for an “immediate, durable and sustained humanitarian truce” between Israeli forces and Hamas militants in Gaza. It also demands “continuous, sufficient and unhindered” provision of lifesaving supplies and services for civilians trapped inside the enclave, as news reports suggest Israel has expanded ground operations and intensified its bombing campaign.<<

120 votes in favour, 14 against and 45 abstentions.

Israel and the US do NOT support a ceasefile, nor do they support the unhindered provision of lifesaving supplies and services for civilians. THEY SUPPORT GENOCIDE.

FACT: The people who support Israels continued bombardment of Gaza and the resultant deaths of non-combatants ARE THE MINORITY, and they are supporting genocide, and supporting actions that risk Jewish blood on our streets.

- I'm not saying they shouldn't support Israel or that they don't have a right to their own preference, or voice their own opinions and beliefs, NO.

I'm just saying that you should all know that your are the minority opinion on this, and the rest of the world is getting peed off.
- Like it or not, that's the reality.

"What is the Origin of the Palestinian People?"

Whilst that is an important question Foxy
- There's another one which is equally important.

What is the Origin of the Israel / Palestinian Conflict?
- There's no chance of resolving the conflict properly until those questions are answered.

Imagine a long running fued with a family relative every Christmas that went on for 15 years.
- There no end to the conflict until they sort out their differences.

And Netanyahu created this situation - by giving tacit support to Hamas to divide the opinions of Palestinian people in negotiations for Palestinian statehood.

He oppose negotiations that would lead to Palestinian statehood and he argues they won't negotiate with Hamas, leaving the issue unresolved an ongoing while Palestinians suffer and whilst at the same time being supportive of continued settlement building.

If anyone's to blame for things reaching this point, it's Benjamin Netanyahu himself.

A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000
'For 14 years, Netanyahu's policy was to keep Hamas in power; the pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps the Israeli prime minister preserve his own rule'

The UN vote tells us how country leaders think. It tells us nothing about what people think. Claiming therefore that those who oppose the resolution are in the minority is rather dubious. There is no way to know the truth of that.

The UN and those who support it would be on much firmer ground if they got around to addressing Hamas' barbarity and proposing ways to stop it, rather than just expecting Israel to live with the occasional massacre.

"THEY SUPPORT GENOCIDE."
So do you.... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=22424#390115

The word "Semitic" people is an obsolete term for
an ethnic, cultural or racist group. It now is
largely used outside the groupings for Semitic
languages in Linguistics such as Hebrew, Arabic,
Syriac, and so on.

The origins of Palestinians, we're told are complex
and diverse. The region was not originally Arab.

It's Arabization was a consequence of the gradual
inclusion of Palestine within the rapidly expanding
Islamic Caliphates established by Arabian tribes and
the local allies. Like in other "Arabized" Arab nations
the Arab identity of Palestinians is largely based
on linguistic and cultural affiliation and is
independent of the existence of any actual Arabian
origins.

During the 2nd millenium BCE, it was inhabited by the
Canaanites, Semitic speaking peoples who practiced the
Canaanite religion. Palestinians share a strong genetic
link to the ancient Canaanites. The Israelites emerged
later as a separate ethnic religious group in the region.

There's more at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#:

Palestine has undergone many demographic
religious upheavals throughout history.
Jews eventually formed the majority of
the population in Palestine during classical antiquity.
However, the Jewish population in Jerusalem and its
surroundings in Judea never fully recovered as a result of
the Jewish Roman Wars.

In the centuries that followed the region experienced
political and economic unrest, mass conversions to
Christianity and subsequent Christianization of the Roman
Empire and the religious persecution of minorities.

The immigration of Christians as well as the conversion
of pagans, Jews and Samaritans, contributed a Christian
majority forming in late Roman and Byzantine times - Palestine.

This region has a fascinating history.

It's worth knowing more - to better understand
just how special
this region is, and why it deserves all of our support
to see its continued preservation.

The vile anti-Semitic, anti-Israel demonstrations by Palestinians all over the Western world is a cause for embarrassment to the West; or it would be if Western culture had not been already been made to look pathetic by its own suicidal multiculturalism policies.

The rubbish demonstrating in Australian capital cities are not Australians. They might have signed up to citizenship to get the dole, Medicare and all the freebies, and to vote for Green Labor. Some might have been born here; but they will never be Australians. It is an established fact that the first generation Australian-born-of-immigrants are often more fanatical and dangerous than the immigrants themselves.

Multiculturalism has been white-anting Australia since the moronic Malcolm Fraser kicked it off 60 years ago. I still remember the horrid announcement of it on ABC radio - the naive idea that people could be both Australian and whatever they were where they came from.

It's been all downhill since then: despite the "successful multicultural country" nonsense spoken by people too stupid to recognise reality, or just too pigheaded to admit how absurd and dangerous the maniacal policy was in the first place. Australia was successful the way it was before the lunatics took over, with its limited and non-racial discriminatory immigration policy. Multiracialism can work; multiculturalism - never.

Like us, Israel is still a democratic country deserving of our support against barbarians. Any Australian who does not believe that, and wants the same deal for Israel's enemies is an anti-Semite, no matter how much they pretend that it is 'Israel, not the Jews'.

Bulls-t. Israel is under siege all the time, and brutally attacked regularly by Islamic terrorists only because of its Jewishness. Forget the 'territory' excuse. It's straight out hatred of Jews. And, this latest conflict is showing that there is a lot of that hatred in Australia and other Western countries.

Australians commenting on the Israel-Palestine situation is a waste of time until they can find a solution to the situation here ! Do-gooderism has brought many civilisations to their knees.
The sad fact being that the do-gooders are parasites dictating to the host !

Fester,

People use many excuses for their behaviour.
Be it the right to defend themselves, the right
to bear arms, for patriotism, or as you pointed out
shielding themselves in the authority of others -
that they were fonly following orders.

Then there are those who feel they are justified
by their God.

We're all defined by what we do. By our actions.

Something that may be useful to remember when we post
on public forums.

I just watched an unbelievably idiotic SkyNews whatever they are called trying to get Israel's opposition leader. Yair Lapid, to find fault with the Netanyahu government's handling of the war because of the 'very fact that the opposition is supposed to question governments'. What a drongo! Lapid quickly put him on the right track about what happens when an entire nation is under attack from a common enemy. The media is infested with halfwit 12 year olds.

http://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1718376269954371897
Netanyahu is now going fully genocidal; calling Palestinians "Amalek" & citing the bible to justify their destruction!
The bible called to "utterly destroy all that Amalek have, & spare them not; but slay both man & WOMAN, INFANT & suckling, ox & sheep, camel & donkey"!

Saul and Genocide
http://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA359213190&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=07923910&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7E91acdef&aty=open-web-entry

http://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1718377357063397545
Netanyahu also cites the biblical genocidaire Joshua bin Nun in his speech.
Joshua bin Nun was the inspiration for Israel's Finance Minister, Bezalel Smotrich, when he created his infamous 2017 "decisive plan" for Palestinians, which many say it resembles "the German SS"

The Israeli Lawmaker Heralding Genocide Against Palestinians
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-05-23/ty-article/.premium/the-israeli-mk-heralding-genocide-against-palestinians/0000017f-e2ae-d804-ad7f-f3feb9200000

'Deputy Speaker Bezalel Smotrich's admiration for the biblical genocidaire Joshua bin Nun leads him to adopt values that resemble those of the German SS'

"Tomer Persico quoted remarks that MK Bezalel Smotrich (Habayit Hayehudi) made recently at a conference of religious Zionists, where he presented his plan to offer the Palestinians three options: leave the territories, continue to live there with second-class status, or continue resisting, in which case “the Israel Defense Forces will know what to do.” These are chilling words that are liable to lead Israel into committing the horrific crime of genocide."

How Christian fundamentalists plan to teach genocide to schoolchildren
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/30/christian-fundamentalists-plan-teach-genocide

As I asked weeks back - 'What makes one religion any better than another?'

Amnesty International has an interesting article
which was published last year that shows why knowing
both the history of the region and sorting the myths
from the facts is so important to better understand
this conflict.

We're told that in May 2021, Palestinian families in
Sheikh Jarrah, a neighbourhood in occupied East
Jerusalem began protesting against Israel's plan to
forcibly evict them from their homes to make way for
Jewish settlers.

Many of the families were refugees who had settled in
Sheikh Jarrah after being forcibly displaced around
the time of Israel's establishment as a state in 1948.

Since Israel occupied East Jerusalem and the rest of
the West Bank in 1967, Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah
have been continuously targeted by Israeli authorities
who use discriminatory laws to systematically
dispossess Palestinians of the land and homes for the
benefit of Jewish families.

In response to the demonstrations in Sheikh Jarrah,
thousands of Palestinians across Israel and the
Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) held their
own protests in support of the families and against
their shared experience of fragmentation, dispossession,
and segregation.

These demonstrations had nothing to do with hatred - but
the way the Israelis were treating them. The demonstrations
and protests were met with excessive and deadly force by
Israeli authorities with thousands of Palestinians injured,
arrested, and detained.

These events of May 2021 were emblematic of the oppression
which Palestinians have faced every single day for decades.

The discrimination, the dispossession, the repressions of
any dissent, the killings and injuries - all are
part of a system which is designed to privilege Jewish
Israelis at the expense of Palestinians.

Again, I repeat that's why knowing the history of the
region is so important.

This was taken from the following link:

http://amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

In recent years, genetic studies have demonstrated that,
at least paternally, Jewish ethnic divisions and the
Palestinians are related to each other.

Genetic studies on Jews have shown that Jews and
Palestinians are closer to each other than the Jews
are to their host countries. Therefore, Palestinian-
Jewish rivalry is based on cultural and religious, but
not genetic differences.

With the current violence sweeping over those regions,
it's easy to overlook the things that Jews and Palestinians
share: a deep attachment to the same sliver of contested
land, a shared appetite for hummus, a common tradition of
descent from the patriarch Abraham, and as scientific research
shows - a common genetic ancestry as well.

Of course looking at the Biblical tale of Cain and Abel -
the fact that people are related to each other does not
prevent their developing extreme hostility to one another.

Here's a timeline of the long history of the Israel
Palestinian conflict:

http://abcnews.go.com/international/timeline-long-history-israeli-palestinian-conflict/story?id=103875134

There's another interesting article -
Bernard Keane's opinion piece in "Crikey", 30 October 2023.

It tells us that - "By denying Palestinian anger and grief
for the deadly siege of Gaza, Peter Dutton is pushing a
well-worn narrative that serves the interests of terrorists."

Keane goes on to say that "Peter Dutton provided a new
low-point in the already barrel-bottom nature of the
Coalition's exploitation of the Israel-Hamas warp yesterday, in
his attack on Tony Burke for explaining what his own
constituents have been telling him about the siege of Gaza."

Dutton's own words:

"Tony Burke, to his great shame, is playing to his
constituency within his own electorate when he should be
acting in the national interest. He's just going after his
own local political opportunity and putting our national
interest as a second."

Keane tells us that apart from the standard hypocrisy of
trying to score political points of accusing your opponent
of playing politics with an issue. Dutton who returned to
attack Burke again and again during the course of an
interview on Sky News - was engaging in something much
darker.

In rejecting Burke's comments as illegitimate and as
parochial politics divorced from the national interest
Dutton was dismissing the grief and anxiety of Australians
with friends and family in Gaza who can only sit and watch
as loved ones are killed or endure the developing humanitarian
crisis that's unfolding in the region.

When we know the history and origins of the people of
these areas - what's happening today is really awful.
With no solution in sight.

I can no longer watch the news on TV.

What's happening in this conflict is horrendous
And the world is watching and allowing it to
happen. I can't watch any more and I feel for
all the innocent victims.

The following link is a brief summary of the
question of Palestine by the United Nations:

http://un.org/unispal/history/

"What's happening in this conflict is horrendous"
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1718795814464807406

- Watch this then

This is what the Pro-Israel crowd want to convince others is perfectly ok.

Now multiply it by about 5000.

'Move along, nothing to see here', they imply.
'Cut off the internet so no-one sees'

This is not ok, I will not condone it, and I will not give my silent consent to it.
- And anyone who expects others to should be ashamed.

everyone supporting Hamas must be deported if not a citizen. All those crying from the river to the sea Palestine must be free. This means they do not accept the State of Israel. They must be reeducated in our values of not getting involved in denying this right.

ttbn,

How do you reflect on your own view of immigrants in light of the hatred of Palestinians toward Jews being based on an anti-immigration sentiment?

Hi AC,

How is it that you were okay about Russia invading Ukraine based on your belief that Ukraine was murdering Russians and needed to be de-nazified and demilitarised, yet you object to Israel's action against Hamas after it sent 2000 rockets into Israel, killed 1400 Jews and took 200 Jews hostage on October 7?

Hi Fester,

"How is it that you were okay about Russia invading Ukraine..."

- I have to say I didn't think Russia was actually going to invade when they did, I got that wrong; but I'd already been following the events in Ukraine on and off since the Maidan in 2014.

Prior to that, I'd been following the war in Syria, in that conflict I supported Bashar Al Assad, I was against US policies of endless wars, and I particularly disliked the ideas of sanctions and overthrows.

- So when I saw the US was overthrowing the democratically elected leader Viktor Yanukovych (Ukraine), I supported Russia.
I saw Russia as being possibly the only nation that could put an end to US endless wars by neoconservatives, and they didn't support any of this woke crap, which was a bonus.
And Russia eventually came to the aid of Assad, and stopped the US from expanding it's empire there.

General Wesley Clark "We're going to take-out 7 countries in 5 years."
http://youtu.be/6Knt3rKTqCk

For the US empire, there is only 'conquered' and 'yet to conquer'.
'democracy' means 'conquered' and 'authoritarian' means 'yet to conquer'.

Israel is often described as the United States 'unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east'.
It's how they keep Arab nations divided and project power into the region.
Biden once said 'If Israel didn't exist, we'd have to create it'.

Why did we go to Iraq, War on Terror, Arab Spring?
- It was all just a exercise in the US attempting to 'expand their empire'.
You see if they controlled M/E oil, they would control the world.

My support for the Palestinians is an issue of defence of human rights, I've been critical of Israel because of this, but also I don't like Zionism, and I don't like the aims and goals of Judaism as it applies to non-Jews.

I see Palestinians as having a legitimate right to take up arms against an occupying state, but I don't support them attacking or killing innocent non-combatants.

NATO was expanding the US empire up to Russias borders and risking WWIII

Imagine if the Palestinians used the resources they use for causing perpetual mayhem against Israel, to better themselves & start living now for the future instead of always fighting about the past ?

Yuyutsu; just a quick one; The Arab Islamic armies invaded
Mesopotamian towards the end of the 6th century after the
death of Muhammad. I have the info here on who was the commander.
I'll add it on to morrow, time for bed, night !

Dear Bezza,

«The Arab Islamic armies invaded Mesopotamian towards the end of the 6th century after the death of Muhammad.»

Arab armies, that's quite possible and normal, but not Islamic because there was no Islam at the time yet.

The Hadith of course could claim many things in order to forge a historical connection between Muhammad and their book, the Koran, but why should we believe it?

Putin and the Ukraine?

Putin justifies his invasion of Ukraine because
he claims that Ukrainians, Belarussians and
Russians are "one people." That's his excuse
for the invasion. He wants to
restore the former Soviet Empire. With him as its
Tsar.

He is denying the existence of Ukrainians as a
people. He did not expect the Ukrainians to
fight back.

Benjamin Netanyahu has made it quite clear in
many of his speeches that Israel is - "Not a state
for all its citizens," in reference to the country's
Arab population.

He said that "Israel is the nation state of the Jewish
people - and only it."

Netanyahu leads what is seen as the most right-wing government
in Israel's history.

In June 2009, United States President Barack Obama said:

"Israel must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to
exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's."

The question of Israel's legal right to exist has been and
is one of the most emotively charged questions in the
vocabulary of international law and politics.

It also brings out the exterminationist rhetoric of
numerous Arab and Islamic politicians and ideologues.

And it is something that has gone on for decades and looks
like it's not about to end anytime soon.

A tragedy that should have been resolved decades ago -
but is still ongoing.

The history of the region speaks for itself and it
won't be ending any time soon until a cease fire is
implemented.

Hi Foxy,
A lot of things you have been lead to believe in regards to the war in Ukraine were a complete lie, and many of these facts came out as the war dragged on, but weren't well publicised and you only find out these facts if you're really paying attention, and the media had done it's job in convincing you of the lies initially, and it's hard to go back after the media spin spread the lies and see the real facts.

For example.
(I'm not going to dig up references, but you can find them if you dig)

Jens Stoltenberg head of NATO admitted that prior to the Russian invasion, Russia send a letter to the US and NATO, demanding they stop any further plans for Ukraine to join NATO.
Russia saw the expansion of the US empire up to it's border as a legitimate threat, and had been voicing it's opposition since 2008.
The West refused to agree to this, which left Putin no choice but to invade, for the purposes of de-nazification and de-militarisation.
- It was not unprovoked, but there was never any plan to go to Europe and all those countries knew it.

Do you think they would all give up their own weapons and leave themselves defenseless if they actually though Russia was coming to conquer them?

Prior to this Putin tried to gain 'autonomy' for the people of the Donbass, the West agreed to the Minsk agreements (guaranteed by France Germany and the Ukraine signed and ratified in the UN) but secretly did not, they were buying time to arm up for a fight.
This is confirmed by Hollande, Merkel and Poroshenko.

[Cont.]
Russia did not send a force in to 'take Kiev'.
This was meant to show Ukraine it was serious and force them to the negotiation table, which it did - and initial terms had already been agreed upon and signed (To which Russia withdrew from Kiev as a show of goodwill) but on 1st April, 5 weeks after the invasion, Boris Johnson, (at the behest of the US) flew to Kiev - convinced Zelensky to tear up that initial agreement, told him the West had his back and would support him for 'as long as it takes'.

Next, there was no great Ukrainian counteroffensive, anywhere.
Russians strategically withdrew from the right bank of the Dnieper in Kherson, and they also withdrew in Kharkov region.
Ukrainians mere took up the positions Russia had abandoned.
It was a successful withdraw in Kherson, but messy in Kharkiv.

If Zelensky had agreed to Russias demands in regards to NATO, the war would've been over after a month, Ukraine may have even gotten part of its territory back under the deal, and there wouldn't be any 1.5 million dead and maimed.

These are just some of the facts that you misunderstand, by lies by the west and in the media.
I know as a person with Lithuanian heritage you are deadly petrified of the Soviets because of the history, but what you think is true is not what happened.

You were deliberately played, in order to gain yours (and others like you) support and complicity in justification for and a continuing of the war.

[Cont.]
The cause of the war in Ukraine was the expansion of NATO up to Russias borders.
Put another way, the cause of the war in Ukraine was an expansion of the US empire up to Russia's borders,
- and the potential Russian loss of it's Black Sea naval base at Sevestopol, and the potential for nuclear weapons stationed 600 kilometers from Moscow.

Russia was defending itself against these actions, and wanted a new collective security framework for eastern Europe, he most certainly was not trying to conquer Europe, and all the European countries knew that but instead fear, misinformation and disinformation.

- The exact thing you complain about with Peter Dutton and the voice referendum.
YOU WERE HAD by the same type of lies and mistruths you yourself claim to oppose.

Armchair Critic,

My information sources are different to yours.
Mine come from people actually living in the
regions who can relate the facts as to what
really happened - despite the Putin propaganda
and attempts of the justification of his actions.

We've been through these arguments many times in
the past. There's no point in continuing to argue.

Same old AC. He falls for every piece of propaganda from Russia and convinces himself its true. One has to be particularly gullible to think that the original drive on Kiev was anything other than an attempt to knock Ukraine out of the war before they had a chance to react or that the defeat of the Russian column was anything other than a debacle for Moscow.

If the aim of the war was to keep NATO away from Russia's borders then that aim is already defeated. NATO is now 30 minutes drive from St Petersburg. So, if that was the war aim, its already over in which case Russia may as well seek peace on the basis of status quo ante bellum. They don't because that wasn't the main war aim. The main war aim was to reabsorb Ukraine into the motherland, preparatory to seeking to re-unite other lost territories.

Thank for the explanation AC. So you see the conflict as part of the battle between democracy and autocracy? What of Hamas being democratically elected then? I wish there was less ideological rationalising and more seeing people as people. Hamas's reasoning seems on a par with violence endorsing extremists, only more depraved.

Israel has every right to eliminate Hamas. That the authorities in Australia have not done a thing against the many antisemitic and violent protests since October 7 is a shame to this nation. Albanese is easily the worst and most revolting prime minister Australia has had, and he hasn't even gone half the term.

Yuyutsu;
My knowledge of this particular history seems to be different
to yours.
Muhomhhad died in 632 and his power transferred to Abu Bakr but not
as the prophet but Caliph. The prominent general Khalid went around
Arabia consildating their hold.
Khalid was sent to conquer Iraq in 633 only one uear after Muhomahhad's death.
He was sucessful and went on to repeat the exercise in Persia.
All these conquests were made with the still standard options;
Affirm the Islamic belief, or pay the Jizja tax or die.
Syria was next in line and they overcame thecountry.
The general at this time was Uma.
In 637 they turned their attention to Jerusalem.
One story says an offer was made to the city of peace provided they
the Christians paid the Jizjaz tax and no Jew would live in the city.
Another report says that much destruction occurred and many killed.
How does all that match with your knowledge ?

Dear Bezza,

What you quote is from the Hadith, considered to be the "oral teaching" of Islam that was not included in the Koran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

It is a bunch of fantasy tales, written much later after the fact in order to forge a link between the Koran and the original Muhammad, a link that never was. The simplest refutation of the Hadith is the finding of coins with "Muhammad" on one side and a cross on the other, something no Muslim today could tolerate.

I wish I could refer you to the talks of Prof. Yigal Bin Nun, who explains it all with lots of solid evidence, especially this fascinating one, titled "The Historical Muhammad":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wYb4aWfU4c
However, all his talks are in Hebrew. Soon, I suppose, you should have access to software that can translate youtube clips on the fly...

A United States Foreign Affairs article published
25th October 2023, tells us that:

"The argument that the entire population of Gaza
can be held responsible for Hamas's actions is
quickly discredited when one looks at the facts."

"A research network where the US serves as
co-principal investigators, conducted a survey in
Gaza and the West Bank days before the Israel-Hamas
war broke out."

"The findings revealed that rather than supporting
Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated
with the armed groups' ineffective governance as they
endure extreme economic hardship."

"Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas's
ideology either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to
destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey
respondents favoured a two-state solution with an
independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side."

"Continued bombardment and violence and killings of
innocent people, men, women, and children, will NOT
bring the future most Gazans hope for any closer."

" Instead of stamping our sympathy for terrorism,
past Israeli crackdowns that make life more
difficult for ordinary Gazans have increased support
for Hamas. If the current military campaign of
Netanyahu and his government in Gaza has a similar
effect on Palestinian public opinion, it will
further set back the cause of long-term peace."

Yuyutsu, thanks. I did read one article that suggested that Muhumhad
did not exist, and the Koran written by those making a new religion.
In the end however it does not matter whether their prophate was real
or not they behave as though he was real.

The question becomes should we import people who believe he is real
and go to war to enforce that belief ?

What could possibly go wrong ?

The following link is worth a read:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/why-netanyahu-must-go#:

This article comes from - Ami Ayalon - former Commander of
the Israeli navy and former Director of the Israeli Security
Agency. From Gilead Sher - former Chief of Staff to Israeli
PM Ehud Barak. Sher was also a former Senior Israeli peace
negotiator and a Fellow at the Baker Institute for Public
Policy. and Orni Petruschka - a tech entrepreneur in Israel.

Some of their opinions are:

"As long as Netanyahu remains as PM US President Joe Biden
must make sure Netanyahu understands that the US has not
issued him a blank check to wo whatever he wishes in Gaza."

"Biden should stress that the US views a two-state peace
process as an imperative, a vision Biden has hinted at
already."

We're told that - "The Palestinians have felt abandoned by
the recent Israeli attacks and this feeling must be corrected.
Any similar deals that US and Israeli leaders pursue must
squarely address the problems Palestinians face, incorporating
building, continuous and bookmarked processes for Israeli
disengagement from the West Bank and for rehabilitation of
Gaza."

"Providing the Palestinians a horizon - a concrete timeline
for the establishment of a state of their own in which they
can exercise their national aspirations, practice self-
determination, and live free of occupation will send a
positive message not only to the Palestinians but to the
international community and to Israel's Arab neighbours."

"But as long as Israel now pursues a different and complicated
military campaign, we Israelis must start telling ourselves
a different message: that the enemy is Hams, NOT the
Palestinian people. That will require a new, reasonable
government in Israel."

Why Netanyahu Must Go?

After the war Israel will need a two-state solution.
He cannot deliver.

Israel has been able to capture Hamas leaders who under interrogation have given insight into the tunnel network and its storage and command centers. The next phrase of the operation is these tunnels.

Why is Netanyahu still Prime Miinister of Israel?

His idea of justice is to pledge yet more violence,
greater escalation. He warns Gaza's besieged people to
leave their homes as Israel's aerial bombing intensifies
and its ground forces assemble en masse.

Where should they go? Into the sea? Netanyahu's policy is
not a national, humane or sustainable policy. His staying
in power fighting to justify and excuse his own
mistakes is not justice. His continuing to stay in power
will only make things worse.

Israel will need a two-state solution.
Foxy,
Something tells me the Arab World won't let that happen !

Israel prefers the status quo.

It is determined to achieve a mass expulsion of
Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. That is the
government's goal.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/sada/90869#:

Foxy, stop talking nonsense. Israel is happy for Gazans to occupy Gaza. they are not happy that terrorists continue to wage war on civilian targets in Israel from Gaza.

Josephus,

Then please explain why Israel treats the Palestinians
the way that it does. The oppression which Palestinians
have faced every day, for decades. The discrimination,
the repression of any dissent, the killings and
injuries inflicted - all are part of a system which is
designed to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of
Palestinians.

That's why as I keep saying - knowing the full history of
the area and sorting the myths from the facts is so
important to better understand the conflict.

"That's why as I keep saying - knowing the full history of
the area and sorting the myths from the facts is so
important to better understand the conflict."

And you should lead by example Foxy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btVFgqkgkzw

Fester,

I always lead by example.
It's a professional habit.
I present facts from reputable sources.
Not only links but to books and other media
sources as well. That's what I was educated and trained
to do. You should read some of the links I have given.
Including ones from the US Foreign Affairs.

Fester,

I think you're a lost cause though.

I've told you repeatedly - if you want people to
read your links drop the "s" in your Hpps.

There has never been a race called Palestinians, they were Arabs. Those living in the boundary called Israel in 1948 were known as citizens of Israel regardless of their race or religion.

Israel has offered the people of Gaza their right to a separate state five times since 1948, but they have refused to accept the right of Israel to exist and continue to try to destroy State of Israel. Their cry is "from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free, always was Allah's land and always will be". They cannot accept it no longer is controlled by Islam and is in democratic hands.

Foxy,

Good for you. I'm sure that a well informed antisemite is far more respectable than an ignorant antisemite.

https://aijac.org.au/featured/pro-palestinian-slogans-often-amount-to-advocating-for-terrorism-or-genocide/

Wherever Islam settles around the World the land is claimed for Allah, as it has in ghettos in England, America, and Australia. They see boundaries where kafir cannot reside unless they convert.

Interview with son of Hamas leader.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BSDLFVT74

Foxy Netanyahu was put in that job to sort the out the present war.
He was, I think, on his way out before all this started.
The crux of the matter os the Koran. It always calls for the Jews to
be killed unless they accept the offer that cannot be refused.
What many have not realised is that the Palestinians are very much
prepared to kill. When the Hamis trained group broke through a very
large number of Gazans followed them in join in the fun.
"Mum and Dad I killed 10 Jews with my hands !"
They have been fed with all this lust for Jewish blood with their mother's milk !

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2:191)

Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax. (9:29)

There are dozens of quotes like this.

The IS what they believe is not a crime as Muhammad practised this and he was the "perfect man" and Allah gave these words.
So only the naive believes that it is love in kisses but for the Jews.
Surely even you Foxy have seen enough of Al Quaeda, ISIS, Hamis etc
to realise it is endemic in the moslem culture.

If the Germans could be brought up to Gas the Jews how much easier
for a people like the Arabs down through their history ?
Sorry Foxy but those wanting the Israelis to just give up and let it all go are just in kooku land !

The full story of Hamas from the son of its founder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v738Wogza0

From Islam to Christ, from hate to love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNU6Kmc9zYA

Dear Josephus,

«Israel has offered the people of Gaza their right to a separate state five times since 1948»

You must have meant 1967 - until then Gaza was an Egyptian territory.

"You must have meant 1967 - until then Gaza was an Egyptian territory."

And Egypt doesn't want it returned.

At least Foxy can take consolation in the fact that she isn't as antisemitic as the ABC, and the ABC can take consolation in the fact that it is nowhere near as antisemitic as the Greens. A few more steps down and you are at the bottom with Hamas. I just heard a news reader on the ABC remark that some in the western world thought of Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

It would be nice to see Labor address antisemitism in Australia instead of fanning the flames by turning a blind eye to it, a few politicians even participating, with the police standing passively by as the hatred pours out. Albanese's conduct is contemptible.

Calling people who dare to criticize Israel's policies
and actions "anti-Semitic," is not doing favours for
Jewish people and does does more damage in preventing
the recognition of real anti-Semitism.

You can't call it - anti-Semitism when their actions are
wrong and you point that out. If you instigate something
and then get reactions - you can't continue to blame
others. And Israel's history speaks for itself. It's
current actions are even worse.

http://hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-insraeli-killings-palestinian-children

Oooops - miss-spelt - here's the link again:

http://hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

Rabbi and Editor of Tikkun Magazine - Michael Lerner
said:

"If a Jew today goes into any synagogue in the United
States or around the world and says:
"I don't believe in God or Torah and I don't follow the
commandments, most will welcome you in and urge you to
become involved. But say, "I don't support the State of
Israel"; and you are likely to be labelled as a
"self-hating Jew" pr anti-Semite, scorned and dismissed."

http://theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

As with all learned antisemites Foxy, I'm sure that you arrived at your position after an exhaustive and impartial assessment of the evidence, replete with independent fact checks.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/theyre-fools-megyn-kelly-slams-propalestinians-as-disgusting/video/ba97cc2a4a20eed5e5c385c8a88d5901

James Graham
"If Israel allowed the Palestinians to have a state of their own, there would be peace in the Middle East. That’s what you hear from UN ambassadors, European diplomats, and college professors.
But Israel has already offered the Palestinians a state of their own – on five separate occasions?

After the breakup of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, Britain took control of most of the Middle East, including the area that constitutes modern Israel.
Seventeen years later, in 1936, the Arabs rebelled against the British, and against their Jewish neighbors.
The British formed a task force – the Peel Commission – to study the cause of the rebellion. The commission concluded that the reason for the violence was that two peoples – Jews and Arabs – wanted to govern the same land.
The answer, the Peel Commission concluded, would be to create two independent states – one for the Jews, and one for the Arabs. A two-state solution. The suggested split was heavily in favor of the Arabs. The British offered them 80 percent of the disputed territory; the Jews, the remaining 20 percent. Yet, despite the tiny size of their proposed state, the Jews voted to accept this offer. But the Arabs rejected it and resumed their violent rebellion. Rejection number one.
Ten years later, in 1947, the British asked the United Nations to find a new solution to the continuing tensions. Like the Peel Commission, the UN decided that to resolve the conflict was to divide the land.
On November 7, 1947, the UN voted to create two states. Again, the Jews accepted the offer. And again, the Arabs rejected it, only this time, they did so by launching an all-out war. Rejection number two.
Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria joined the conflict. But they failed. Israel won the war, and got on with the business of building a new nation. Most of the land set aside by the UN for an Arab state – the West Bank and east Jerusalem – became occupied territory; occupied not by Israel, but by Jordan.

cont,
Twenty years later, in 1967, the Arabs, led this time by Egypt and joined by Syria and Jordan, once again sought to destroy the Jewish State.
The 1967 conflict, known as the Six Day War, ended in a stunning victory for Israel. Jerusalem and the West Bank, as well as the area known as the Gaza Strip, fell into Israel’s hands. The government split over what to do with this new territory. Half wanted to return the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt in exchange for peace. The other half wanted to give it to the region’s Arabs, who had begun referring to themselves as the Palestinians, in the hope that they would ultimately build their own state there.
Neither initiative got very far. A few months later, the Arab League met in Sudan and issued its infamous “Three No’s:” No peace with Israel. No recognition of Israel. No negotiations with Israel. Again, a two-state solution was dismissed by the Arabs, making this rejection number three.
In 2000, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak met at Camp David with Palestinian Liberation Organization Chairman Yasser Arafat to conclude a new two-state plan. Barak offered Arafat a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 94% of the West Bank with East Jerusalem as its capital. But the Palestinian leader rejected the offer. In the words of US President Bill Clinton, Arafat was “Here 14 days and said ‘no’ to everything.”
Instead, the Palestinians launched a bloody wave of suicide bombings that killed over 1,000 Israelis and maimed thousands more – on buses, in wedding halls, and in pizza parlors. Rejection number four.
In 2008, Israel tried yet again. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert went even further than Ehud Barak had, expanding the peace offer to include additional land to sweeten the deal. Like his predecessor, the new Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, turned the deal down. Rejection number five.

Fester,

Being anti-Zionism does not equate to being anti-Semitic.
It includes people like Noam Chomsky, Miriam Margolyes,
Henry Siegman, Richard Cohen, Michael Lerner. Richard
Falk, Elan Pappe, Antony Loewenstein, and many of the
population of Israel.

Josephus,

I suggest that you get hold of - and read the book:

"Ten Myths About Israel," by renowned Israeli historian -
Ilan Pappe.

It should be available at your local library. Or they can
get it in for you.

Antisemitism is a more honest word. Anti-Zionism is just antisemitism for intelligent people who should know better.

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-zionism-antisemitism-how-anti-zionist-language-left-and-right-vilifies-jews

Foxy, I get the facts from Israeli themselves.
Cont,
"In between these last two Israeli offers, Israel unilaterally left Gaza, giving the Palestinians complete control there. Instead of developing this territory for the good of its citizens, the Palestinians turned Gaza into a terrorist base, from which they have fired thousands of rockets into Israel.
Each time Israel has agreed to a Palestinian state, the Palestinians have rejected the offer, often violently.
So, if you’re interested in peace in the Middle East, maybe the answer is not to pressure Israel to make yet another offer of a state to the Palestinians. Maybe the answer is to pressure the Palestinians to finally accept the existence of a Jewish State." end of Quote.

Foxy, you must understand the Islamic mind and their links to land, once it is captured for Allah, it cannot be let go to a democratic State, and any unbelievers occupying the land must convert, pay the tax or be killed.

Josephus,

I get the facts from reputable Israeli historians.
From journalists and authors who have lived,
worked and travelled extensively in Israel.
And of course from Israelis themselves.
Including Israeli newspaper and media sources.
And those of the United States - including
their Foreign Affairs.

Defining anti-Zionism as antisemitism leaves
Israel free to entrench its own version of a
one-state - which denies millions of Palestinians
basic rights.

You forget that Palestinians are also Semites.

Antisemitism is not wrong because it is wrong to
denigrate and dehumanize Jews.

Antisemitism is wrong because it is wrong to denigrate
and dehumanize anyone.

Which makes ultimately that any effort to fight
antisemitism that contributes to the denigration and
dehumanization of Palestinians is no fight against
antisemitism at all.

Once again I recommend you get hold of the book -
"Ten myths about Israel," by Ilan Pappe.

Then we can talk some more. For now you are at a disadvantage.
You have an opinion - but it is not an informed opinion.

"The Palestinians turned Gaza into a terrorist base, from which they have fired thousands of rockets into Israel."

Aren't they allowed to fire rockets into Israel?
And if not why not?
Aren't they permitted to resist occupation and theft of land?

Many of you support Ukraine's right to defend itself and make war on the basis of land theft - what's the difference here?

"Each time Israel has agreed to a Palestinian state, the Palestinians have rejected the offer, often violently."
- Which offer was the fair one?
- Do they not offer them stolen land?

Prior to 1948, Jews had increased their numbers from a minority (about 5%) to about one third the population, two thirds Arabs (After WWII). The Jews tried to buy land, but the Palestinian Arabs who had been there for 100 generations refused to sell.
So Israel claimed independence (remember only 1/3rd the population) and just claimed it all anyway.
- Declared this is the Israeli state and kicked everyone off their land, wiped out the population of 4 or 5 hundred villages.

It's obvious they didn't agree to the borders in 1948.
The war in 1973 was in relation to lands several militant groups felt was unfairly taken in 1967, so they obviously weren't pleased with the 1967 borders either.

Israel has been using settlement building to displace and surround the Palestinians (and every other possibly weapon of war, coercion and collective punishment) prevent any Palestinian expansion and expand their own control of the land since this mess started prior to 1948.

Where was the path to a fair settlement?
Where is the right to reasonable resistance?
What happens if you refuse a fair settlement, continue to bulldoze more homes and take more land and impose collective punishment upon any kids of resistance?

- 'Do they not offer them stolen land?'

They were only ever offering not to steal all of it all at once.
- That's not any kind of a fair deal.

Oh dear AC, not the thieving Jew again? The Palestinians could have had 80% in 1948, but all they have ever wanted is all of it free of Jews.

Fester,

That is wrong.

Totally wrong.

It's part of historical record that Zionist forces
had taken more than 78% of historic Palestine,
ethnically cleansed and destroyed about 530 villages
and cities and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in
a series of mass atrocities including more than 70
massacres.

As for land grabs and theft?

The more than 3 million Palestinians living in the
occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem daily face
home demolitions, arbitrary arrests and displacement
as Israel expands its Jews-only colonies and steals
Palestinian land to do so.

Palestinian movement is restricted by military
checkpoints and the Separation Wall that has obstructed
their ability to travel freely.

The Gaza Strip where some 2 million Palestinians live has
been under Israeli siege for more than a decade whereby
Israel controls the air-space, sea, and borders;
the Strip has witnessed so many assaults that they have made
the area uninhabitable.

But that's been Israel's aim since the beginning.

Hi Fester,

"The Palestinians could have had 80% in 1948"
They already did have 80+ percent prior to 1948 Fester.
- Only if they'd firstly given up the land they were already on for generations would the Jews have had 20% in total to give.
What do you think the Nakba is, if you don't know all these things you can't make an informed judgement that takes into account the historical events.

Let me explain this better.
Lets say you owned a 100 hectare block of land.
Lets say I turned up, started living on your land without permission, and then I decided to offer you 80% of your own land, keeping 20 hectares for myself.

Is that fair?
Should I not expect you to object to this offer?

So what if you're a Palestinian and it was you, and lets say you object to the above deal and say 'No deal', and I (the Jew) spend the next 75 years doing salami tactics on you and your block, bombing the shite out of you on a regular basis, turning off your water, poisoning your wells and destroying your olive groves and taking more land until all you have is 1 hectare down in the back corner.

Would you think it fair now?

When Israel had the war of Independence in 1948 they claimed Palestinian lands as their own, and murdered and ran off the existing Palestinian inhabitants that had lived there for generations.

Everything Palestinians are claimed to have done to Israelis was firstly done to them by Israelis.

I told mhaze this weeks ago, but he just couldn't get it through his head
The land was not unpopulated prior to 1948
- People already lived there and had done so for many many generations!

What do you think happened to all the people that lived in these towns?

List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1947–1949 Palestine war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1947%E2%80%931949_Palestine_war

How much land did Israelis have prior to this?
Look at the bloody map - not much, they took it all by force.

Dear Critic,

Regarding land ownership, the truth is somewhere in between and the land is a mosaic.

Some lands were grabbed alright.

But other lands were bought with good money, the full price, some of which not just once, some not just twice, some not even thrice, but four times paying for the same land:

Once to the effendi (local lord) who owned them.
Once to the vassal farmers who complained that the effendi is throwing them off the land, collecting all the benefits whereas they get nothing.
Once to the Bedouin tribes which claimed to have seasonal rights to come with their flocks to graze the land.
And once to the corrupt Ottoman rulers, who claimed that nothing can be registered as yours until you pay them too.

Do you consider it fair to enjoy the money but not willing to part with the sold goods?

Now for the grabbed land:
Some of it was taken in a defensive war,
Some was taken by scare campaigns,
Some by legal tricks,
And yes, some of it was taken in disgusting pogroms,
And some was just found empty or even uninhabitable and taken because nobody else was there.

What is little understood, is that in 1948 Israel had no policy as to what to do with the villages and towns it conquered. That came down to the local young commander of the unit that took the village, typically in the rank of captain. Some captains allowed the residents to remain, some allowed some of them to remain and some expelled them all. Many locals fled their villages in advance leaving them empty, either out of fear (occasionally justified, occasionally not) or because Arab leaders ordered them, so they could use their village to launch strikes against Israel, just for two weeks, then let them return after the victory (that never was). Again, some captains allowed them to return, some didn't.

And speaking about land-grab, what about the lands that were owned by Jews in Arab countries, especially Iraq and Morocco when the Jews were kicked out?

[continued...]

[...continued]

At the bottom line, none of this matters, it's only hot air:

My family was born in Israel, they rightly paid good money for their lands, in Israel proper, not in the occupied territories. They built their homes there and they want to live, they don't want to die, they don't want to take anybody else's land, but whether right or wrong, they will do whatever it takes to stay alive on their land. They can and they will. And yes, if worse comes to worst then they will even use nukes as necessary.

The so-called "Palestinians" (which are genetically their own brothers and sisters) ought to get used to the idea that no matter what they do and no matter how many sympathisers they obtain, they cannot win: they can only do some limited damage, they can kill some, wound some, rape some, destroy that much, they can get the sympathy of people like yourself and Foxy, but they will never be able to take, keep and enjoy my family's homes by force.

Deserving or otherwise, regardless, Israel was willing to give them back a lot, not quite 100% of what they asked for, but still a lot, still most of it, yet they didn't want it. They could have even cheated by first taking what was on offer, then demanding more, but the truth is that they never wanted a state of their own, they are not interested in land, never were: they are only interested in killing my family - do they and their supporters think that we are all such idiots who would let them, who would nicely extend their necks for the slaughter?

Only two issues remain.
1. Does Israel have a right to rescue their stolen family members?
2. Does Israel have a right to justice?

Inas Qleibo,
Quote,"A crash course on history of the PALESTINIAN STATE: 1. Before Israel, there was a British mandate, not a Palestinian state. 2. Before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state. 3. Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state. 4. Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state. 5. Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state. 6. Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state. 7. Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine empire, not a Palestinian state. 8. Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state. 9. Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state. 10. Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state. 11. Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state. 12. Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state. 13. Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state. 14. Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state. 15. Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state. 16. Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state. 17. Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state. 18. Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state. 19. Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state. 20. Actually, in this piece of land there has been everything, EXCEPT A PALESTINIAN STATE"

Well I for one don't have all the answers.

You could take away Netanyahu and Hamas, but that will only take away each sides leadership and the underlying animosity each side has for the other will still remain.

Neither side can completely kill off the other enirely, and as long as the animosity exists on both sides innocent people will be killed.

http://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1720454684031283647
Graphic: Israeli just bombed the main gate of al-Shifa medical compound where over 30,000 refugees are sheltering.
Dozens killed & wounded; literal pools of blood everywhere!
Multiple ambulances were damaged as they attempted to transport the critically wounded to Rafah.

http://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1720430318484627526
Tens of dead bodies including children and women are strewn across the coastal road “Rasheed Street” after the Israeli military slaughtered them.
These are families who were fleeing to south Gaza

I can't support this reckless contempt for innocent human life.
No person with a conscience could turn a blind eye to this needless trail of blood.
It's a shame things have to be this way.

I accept that if Hamas didn't do what it did on Oct 7 there may never have been (and still may not be) a Palestinian state.
Nonetheless, I still cannot support the killing of innocent people.

The situation in that cursed place needs to change.
It's a malignant cancer that has the potential to spread.
There's nothing holy about it, it's just human beings hating and killing other human beings.

Are religions really so great?
Not when they clash with other religions.
Not when realistic compromise becomes near impossible.

Well-read people know that there is no such thing as "Palestinian people": just a bunch of stateless Arabs with a made-up name. You are all arguing about something that doesn't it exist. Helps pass the time I suppose, but totally pointless.

For those of you fretting about the civilian population of Gaza, Middle East expert, Hugh Lovatt, says that, if an election was held today, Hamas terrorists would win. Hamas is much more popular than the "Palestinian" Authority.

The history of Palestine is available on the
internet and in many historical sources for those
interested in pursuing this knowledge.

Here's just one link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#:

What should be concerning to all of us - is where will
this conflict end? The current destruction of the region
and its people is horrendous and it appears that there's
no end in sight.

Dear Josephus,

«1. Does Israel have a right to rescue their stolen family members?
2. Does Israel have a right to justice?»

Whenever you speak of "rights", you must refer to someone who conferred such rights, but in this situation, I cannot think of anyone other than God who could confer these - so may I confirm that this is what you were referring to?

In that case:
1)
Since nothing is possible without God, then if Israel is successful in rescuing its stolen family members, then it implies that they have the right, but if they fail, then it implies that they have not. In any case, they should certainly try their best.

2)
By God's grace, justice is immanent in creation.
Not only Israel, but everyone (whether they like it or not) receives absolute justice.

«A crash course on history of the PALESTINIAN STATE»

Good point, and while the argument still stands, the historical facts are correct only in 1-15 while 16-19 needs to be corrected.

Before the Babylonian empire, there was the Assyrian empire as well as a number of small vassal kingdoms that paid them tax - including Israel and Judea, which were not truly related. The kingdom of Israel earlier rebelled against the Assyrians and was therefore destroyed. The kingdom of Judea kept paying its taxes to Assyria and thus remained longer. The so-called "Canaanite" people and the Judeans, are one and the same, while both the modern "Jews" and these fellows who now foolishly call themselves "Palestinians" are the descendents of the same, all brothers who should treat each other as such.

"1. Does Israel have a right to rescue their stolen family members?"

I think they have every right to 'try' to 'rescue their stolen family members if they so choose'.
Common sense dictates if many die trying (potentially for nothing) it may not be that smart of a thing to do.
Another question is whether or not they have an obligation to?

"2. Does Israel have a right to justice?"

Does anyone have a right to justice?
And what is justice?

Say Hamas killed someones 19 year old daughter at a Music festival.
There's no bringing her back, where's the justice?

Say Israel attacks an apartment building, and you're a 8 year old kid, the only person in your family who survives the airstrike.
Your whole familys dead there's no bringing them back, where's the justice?

Where are American values?

What does the civilized world stand for?

US President Joe Biden provides $3.8 billion
every year for Israel. He wants to give them
even more. As well as military aid.

Israel is already a super military power.
And controls the air, sea, and land in the
region.

Everyone agrees of a country's right to defend itself.
Israel does have rights. But what about Palestinian rights?

I don't think that any rational person can defend what
Israel is doing now - in an indiscriminate way.

The bombing of refugee camps, the bombing of ambulances,
the bombing of school, hospitals, making Gaza uninhabitable,
killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children in
violation of International Law.

This is simply not acceptable.

It has got to stop.

There are no such people as Palestinians; never have been:-

Statement in 1977 by Zahir Muhsein, a PLO executive committee member:

"The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a “distinct Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism".

There was never a Palestinian state, culture or language.

Palestinians are a recent invention.

Hey ttbn,
"Well-read people know that there is no such thing as "Palestinian people": just a bunch of stateless Arabs with a made-up name. You are all arguing about something that doesn't it exist. Helps pass the time I suppose, but totally pointless."

I hate that argument, it's so cheap.
It seems to attempt to remove a person from basic facts.
People lived there already, and its the same argument for the indigenous.

You're arguing that because these people didn't build a lumber mill, then build a town hall, invent paper, hold a meeting, proclaim themselves as 'leaders' declare a 'state' or 'people' and sign founding documents together with drawing up maps with defined borders, that they 'as a people' simply don't exist at all, or that these OTHER 'people' are just like vermin, pestilence and it's ok to eradicate them as if they don't have 'human' value.

IF you go back into history, I think you'll find that these people were given assurances of self determination by the British if they rose up against the Ottomans, and that part of the reason Britain wanted a foothold there was because of oil, when the world had started moving from coal towards oil.

Also I think you'll find that these people you seem to imply 'don't exist' lived there for many, many generations, from way back earlier than even the Ottoman empire itself.

People lived there, it wasn't a vacant block.

AC,

What do you mean? What is "cheap"?

I wrote: "Well-read people know that there is no such thing as "Palestinian people": just a bunch of stateless Arabs with a made-up name. You are all arguing about something that doesn't exist. Helps pass the time I suppose, but totally pointless."

Apart from the second sentence (you are entitled to waste your time if you wish to) what I said is fact. Since then, I have posted a statement from a PLO operative who admitted the fact. There are truckloads of evidence to prove the fact. Not in the emotional, ideological, make-it-up-as-you-go Leftist trucks of Wikipedia, the ABC and Google of course. I'm referring to scholars who actually know their history and what they are talking about. The sort of stuff that lsreali-haters, anti-Semites and the like avoid like the plague.

Your third paragraph is absolute bullsh-t, and not worth a response.

Your fourth paragraph is irrelevant.

Of course the people existed, as all Arabs did. But, look at my post and see that one of the people in question himself is saying what I, and many 'well-read' people know. Palestinians are a recent invention for political purposes - mainly to get Jews out of Israel, and preferably into oblivion.

Just continuing to beat out the same Communist crap, and constantly look for more of the same crap instead educating yourself after leaving whatever brainwashing factory you emerged from is a sure path to permanent ignorance and madness.

A terrorist organisation has dug a network of fortified tunnels and formed an army with a large arsenal. Its sole purpose is the destruction of Israel.

Israel has every right to destroy the war machine directed against her. Unless Israel does so Hamas will keep attacking Israeli citizens.

Hi AC,

Any rational person who wants to be well informed
can do their research on the Palestinian people.

Encyclopedias from Britannica, and others, and historians
tell us that the Palestinian people, are an
ethnonational group descending from people who have
inhabited the region over the millenia.

Despite various wars, expulsions, and a troubled past
and present, the Palestinian population continues to
reside in the territory of the former Mandatory Palestine
now encompassing the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as well
as Israel.

This combined area as of 2022 Palestinians constituted
a demographic majority with an estimated population of 7,503
million or 51.16% (as compared to Jews at 46-47%) of all
inhabitants taking in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and
East Jerusalem and almost 21% of the population of Israel.

The question of Israel's legal right to exist is one of the
most emotively charged questions in the vocabulary of
international law and politics.

It also brings out the exterminationist rhetoric of
numerous Arab and Islamic politicians and ideologues
not least of which is the present President of Iran.

It's a heart-wrenching situation.

In June 2009 US President Barack Obama said:

"Israel must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to
exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's."

Fester,

Getting rid of one terrorist movement won't solve
the conflict. Unless Israel stops its denigration
and dehumanization of the Palestinian people -
nothing will change.

AC wrote: "I told mhaze this weeks ago, but he just couldn't get it through his head
The land was not unpopulated prior to 1948.

I challenge AC to show anywhere where I said that the land was "unpopulated prior to 1948".

I say this knowing:
1. I never made such an assertion.
2. AC just made the claim up
3. That I've made AC look so foolish over the past few weeks that this is his only recourse ie making up false assertions about what I have and haven't said.

The area is question was never unpopulated. But it was sparsely populated in the 19th century and was barely productive. That is why the Ottomans were anxious to import settlers and, upon finding that the Jews were able to make the land productive, the Ottomans sought to import even more Jews. The then inhabitants were happy to sell largely unusable land at inflated prices to the new Jewish arrivals but later became disgruntled when those new arrivals made the land flourish.

AC links to this report..."http://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1720430318484627526"

commenting that "Tens of dead bodies including children and women are strewn across the coastal road “Rasheed Street” after the Israeli military slaughtered them. These are families who were fleeing to south Gaza."

Apparently the cyclist is pointing out that there are no bomb blasts and calling into question whether the deaths were caused by Israel. By AC isn't interested in that.

Meanwhile in other reports about the killings....

"Breaking News: Just now, #Hamas snipers have reportedly killed dozens of children and women on the streets, targeting those attempting to travel from north to south #Gaza and those displaying white flags as a sign of peace. Similar acts have previously been attributed to Palestinian and #Hezbollah terrorists in Syria. They do not want civilians to leave; they want to use them as human shields and kill anyone who attempts to leave. Hamas terrorists in Gaza will, as usual, blame #Israel because it is easy and there is media that accepts this propaganda."

As I've previously said, those who fell so easily for the Gaza bombing lies, haven't learned a single thing and will continue to fall for all of Hamas' tales.

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

Golda Meir.




"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war."

Netanyahu.





The antisemites here won't understand those words.

Dear Foxy,

«Getting rid of one terrorist movement won't solve
the conflict.»

Sure, but what's the one got to do with the other?
They are two separate tasks which independently need be done.

---

Does anyone here know about David F.?

He has not commented here for nearly 2 weeks, which is not typical of him - I hope he is alright.

Though I disagree with him on his blaming of religion for any irreligious evil, I do miss his contributions.

Foxy they are not a race called Palestinians, they are Arabs, like the surrounding nations and the area Palestine was given the Name by the Romans. They are not a separate race of people; they are related to the nations around them.

They want to govern the whole area and are not happy that their brothers of a different religion and values have removed Allah from the land, who have brought and developed the land. A close Christian friend of mine set up the irrigation system that makes the desert bloom and prosper in Israel. It was desert, now it produces food. Jews settlers began purchasing land in Israel in 1878 long before the Holocaust. Jews began purchasing land in Israel as settlers, prior to 1948.

To understand the religious significance that Muslims put on land claimed for Allah; you must understand the influence recently applied by Islam on aboriginal sacred sites in Australia. The sacred sites are a recent invention to exclude people, or use, that once were open public places.

The anti-Semites will keep coming back with lies and bullsh-t until the cows come home in their feeble attempts to justify their bigotry and madness - and mad they are. The Jew-haters are no different these days are no different than they were before and during the Holocaust and the horrors committed by the Nazis; in fact, the Muslim Arabs are now being referred to as Nazis. More shameful and disgusting is that Western and Australian Socialists are looking more National Socialists every day, with the Albanese government now definitely anti-Israel.

Some Western leaders have shown their solidarity by visiting Israel; Albanese hasn't had even the decency to call the Israeli Prime Minister, and Jewish Australians ave good reason to fear for their safety in their own country.

I am disgusted by the Albanese government, and the rantings the ignorant anti-Semites posting here.

"Apparently the cyclist is pointing out that there are no bomb blasts and calling into question whether the deaths were caused by Israel. By AC isn't interested in that."

No because they don't use hellfire missile on cars, they use the missiles that blow up apartment buildings for all targets....

Maybe it was the Mexican cartels?
Maybe it was tibetan monks?
Or maybe Putin did it himself?

Dead bodies laying all over the place in Gaza
'How dare you accuse Israel? Israel are a kind and loving people that would never do such things.'
What a complete knob jockey, it was even on the news Israel admitted it hit the ambulances.
Netanyahu could be standing on the podium dipping kittens in petrol and lighting them on fire, and mhaze would be like 'what a kind man, he's helping to warm that poor kitty up'.
Stupid Israel apologists, trying to pull jedi mind tricks
'You didn't see that', 'You don't know what you saw'

I'm pretty ceratin they didn't blow themselves up.
- But I'm certain that you would try to suggest they did mhaze.

You need to get yourself a matching charter boat mhaze
One just like Shadow Ministers
You can both be charter boat bum chums.
You two morons would probably crash into each other and both still blame the charter boat.
http://youtu.be/UadHCpSjyew

"That I've made AC look so foolish over the past few weeks that this is his only recourse ie making up false assertions about what I have and haven't said."
You've got to be kidding me Lololol
Maybe you think you made me look foolish, if so good for you.
- I wasn't counting.

Tell me then what is this 'stateless people' argument then.
Wtf is even the point of it, what it's purpose?
What point are you trying to bloviate upon the rest of us when you say Palestinians or indigenous are stateless people?
What does it mean? please explain.

Some people here think Israel is so important it comes before Australia, like love of Israel is so important that you're un-Australian if you don't love Israel.

'The antisemites here won't understand those words.'

What is an anti-semite anyway?
Anyone who is not so completely besotted with blind love and devotion for Israel that they're like a teenage groupie throwing its stinky soiled undies onstage for Tom Jones.

The left and the right are both as bad as each other.
Mash potato brains.

Lets go back 2 years, remember all the endless BLM crap that went on for a year or so.
The left were screaming 'Black lives matter' here, there and everywhere.
If anyone on the right tried to counter that argument with 'All lives matter' then the left would immediately call them 'racist'.

Well now the 'stupid right' are doing the same thing as the 'stupid left'...

Now the collective right are screaming 'Jewish lives matter!'
- And the progressives are screaming 'No, all lives matter - look what you have done'.
- And the collective right are like 'You're all anti-Semites!'

Can anyone else see the irony, or is it just me?

... And I'm sitting here on the sidelines thinking to myself
- 'You're all a bunch of hypocrites and deep down none of you actually stand for anything, 'all lives matter' the same now and it was 2 years ago'.

I wonder if any of you can see how I see things
- that you all seem pretty stupid to me right now.

Dear Josephus,

«Foxy they are not a race called Palestinians, they are Arabs, like the surrounding nations and the area Palestine was given the Name by the Romans. They are not a separate race of people; they are related to the nations around them.»

Modern science shows clearly that the majority of the so-called "Palestinians" are not Arabs, but ethnic Jews/Judeans who always remained on their land, who are at least as Judaic, if not even more, than their Jewish brothers who went into exile and returned to Israel from Europe.

The Romans invented that name, "Palestine", as an insult for the sole purpose of humiliating the rebelling Jews they defeated. Anyone who understands this and still uses that name, shows ill will which is commonly named, Anti-Semitism.

Yuyutsu,

Don't blame me for the facts I provide in
my discussions.

I am merely quoting the research from
encyclopedias and historians. Including
Israeli historians, Israeli newspapers,
and Israeli journalists and authors.

Blame them if you think - they know less than you.

As for anti-Semitism? "

Please leave that old
chestnut out of our conversation. Stating
facts is not being anti-anything,
especially not antiSemitic.

Palestinians are also Semites.

Ive fully explained things on this discussion. I've provided
links. What you choose to believe is up to you.

Many Jews do not live in Israel and are in favour of a
Palestinian State alongside Israel. Not every inhabitant
of Israel is Jewish and not all Jewish Israelis want to
conquer more and more Palestinian land.

Silencing pro Palestinian facts is not a particular
effective way to fight rising antisemitism. It undermines
the moral basis of the conflict. It leaves Israel free
to entrench its own version of a one-state which denies
millions of Palestinians basic right.

Antisemitism as I have posted many times - is not wrong
because it is wrong to denigrate and dehumanize Jews.

It is wrong to denigrate and dehumanize anyone.

Which makes ultimately that any efforts to fight
antisemitism that contributes to the denigration
dehumanization of Palestinians is no fight against
antisemitism at all.

Dear Foxy,

I only mentioned anti-Semitism in the context of the use of the name 'Palestine'.

Those who use this name ignorantly without knowing and understanding its source, are not anti-Semitic.
Yet once you know the origin and meaning of that word, you should refrain from using it, similar to how we commonly refrain from using the profane word 'Nîgger', and any further use of that word despite knowing, is an indicator for anti-Semitism.

As for the facts, many encyclopaedias are not up to date with the latest research, which shows that the so-called "Palestinians" are not only Semitic (that goes without saying) - they are Jews!

Being Jews themselves, by using that filthy name, they also denigrate and dehumanise themselves.

If these native Jews which never left Israel in the first place, respect both themselves and their newly-returned brothers, if they want to demonstrate goodwill and reliability, build trust and live in peace sharing the land, then they should cease calling themselves such bad names.

Yuyutsu,

Jews don't qualify as a race.

Jews include individuals of enormously diverse
origins and physical appearance, making the idea
that Jews could easily be designated a race
implausible.

Centuries of dispersion among other racial and
ethnic groups have broadened the Jewish gene pool
to an extent that it is impossible to identify
a common set of genetic markers that biologically
distinguish Jews from others.

Even as far back as biblical times, Jews have
possessed and passed on, genetic markers that came
from outside the community.

There's more at the following:

http://myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/

Theologian, Mark Powell, writes that "Hamas is not the greatest threat to the nation of Israel, but all devout followers of Islam."

This is clear from the disgraceful demonstrations by Muslims living in the West, which has "also exposed the growing ideological divide ... in Australia."

Good old "successful" multiculturalism, with "success" pertaining to it's ripping apart of the population, as it was intended to do.

Oh dear, AC is becoming increasingly deranged as the rubbish he spouts becomes increasingly untenable....

"I'm pretty ceratin they didn't blow themselves up...."

AC, I was specifically talking about the link YOU provided showing (your words) "Tens of dead bodies including children and women are strewn across the coastal road “Rasheed Street” after the Israeli military slaughtered them. These are families who were fleeing to south Gaza."

I pointed out that in fact these people were shot by Hamas gunmen trying to stop their human shields from escaping. So what does AC do? Throws a tantrum and then goes off on some rant which doesn't in the least address the points I made. He WANTS to believe these people were victims of Israel and the facts, as usual, don't concern him.

Then I invited AC to back up his claim that I'd said the land "unpopulated prior to 1948"." So does he even attempt to support his assertions. Nup. Just another tantrum where he attempts (unsuccessfully as usual) to say that pointing out there's never been a state called Palestine is the same as saying the land was unpopulated. So either he's a deflecting or is functionally illiterate. Tough choice.

Then, wonder of wonders, he asks "What is an anti-semite anyway?" Well the term has been in use for centuries but hopefully AC will catch up. Its someone who reflectively blames the Joos. Its someone who sees Jewish mothers and children barbarically slaughtered and blames them for it. Or young women raped and burned alive and averts their gaze. Someone who supports those calling for Palestine from the "river to the sea" or seeks excuses for those demanding to "gas the Jews".

Then in a statement that is both hilarious and utterly lacking in self-awareness he declares..."you all seem pretty stupid to me right now."

As at November 2, attacks on Jews in Germany had increased by 240%; in America by 400%, and in London alone, 1,353%.

Anti-Semitism is not just confined to Muslims; it is rife among Western Leftists, particularly in Generation Z.

All the ingredients for another Holocaust are in place.

According to Yuyutsu: "Modern science shows clearly that the majority of the so-called "Palestinians" are not Arabs, but ethnic Jews/Judeans who always remained on their land, who are at least as Judaic, if not even more, than their Jewish brothers who went into exile and returned to Israel from Europe."

That's just not true. But show us this "modern science".






"Please leave that old chestnut [antisemitism] out of our conversation."

Foxy,

Antisemitism is real. When you have people calling for the the gassing of the Jews. When you have people calling for the Palestine from the river to the sea ie the destruction of Israel. When you have people celebrating the deaths of 1400+ Jews. When you have people reflectively believing every claim from the so-called Palestinians but pooh-poohing every claim from Israel, even in the face of disputing facts. When you have demands for a ceasefire but no demands for the return of hostages that include children.

Then, yes, antisemitism is real.

I did not say that antisemitism was not real.

The point that I was making was that it should not be
used as an excuse to allow Israel to entrench its
own version of a one-state which denies millions of
Palestinians basic rights.

There's over 2 million people who live in Gaza, over
half of whom are children. And humanitarian corridors
must be established immediately. The siege must end.
And power must be restored immediately so hospitals
can be more than graveyards.

Taking sides does not help anyone in this dire
situation.

A ceasefire must be called for and hostages returned.

But I can't see it happening anytime soon.

http://www.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2023-10/249783_5_.jpg

Be careful what propaganda you fall for.

"A ceasefire must be called for and hostages returned."

The Israelis have said no ceasefire will be considered until all hostages are returned.

A ceasefire achieves nothing in the long run. Sure the immediate death toll stops, but Hamas' leadership have already said that they will continue to launch attacks like 7/10 until Israel is destroyed. So Israel calling off the invasion simply allows for a time when more Israeli women and children will be butchered.

Israel has decided that the only way to resolve the Hamas issue is to destroy Hamas or at least so degrade its ability to injure that it can't threaten Jews for a long time to come.

They are now systematically clearing out the tunnels that are so integral to Hamas' efforts to wipe out Israel. And they are systematically picking off the Hamas leadership.

A ceasefire stops all the killing, but only for a time. Its not a long term solution because it will not force the Gazan leadership to negotiate in good faith. The solution is to remove the current leadership and replace it with either Fatah or some other more moderate group that is prepared to live in peace with the Jewish state. But that requires the ruthless removal of Hamas which means death to those who Hamas uses as human shields.

The thinking that a ceasefire solves anything is naive in the extreme and lacks any historic understanding.

You keep telling us that the vast majority of Gazans don't support Hamas and are therefore innocent bystanders. I think that's also extremely naive but if that's true, the removal of Hamas will allow the Gazans a chance to install a more moderate regime that has the welfare of the people at heart rather than using the people to further a messianic mission of killing all Jews.

Australian Muslim preacher preaches jihad on Australia.
http://www.memri.org/tv/sydney-australia-islamic-scholar-brother-ismail-muslims-jihad-palestine-isis-al-qaeda-iran

I suggest you have a look at the link above to understand the situation. Multiculturalism in Australia is about to become Violent. Initially a cover for acceptance, however another agenda is present.

That individuals have been let into this country who can celebrate the grotesque murder, rape, torture, dismemberment, decapitation and violation of young girls and babies is extremely disturbing.

We need to see arrests, convictions and deportation where possible for those who called for the gassing of Jews outside the Sydney Opera House, as well as strict new vetting processes for all immigrants.

The gassing of Jews calls outside the Sydney Opera
house came from a tiny minority - and were silenced
from within the protest itself.

Evidence of the beheading of babies? This has not been
able to be verified.

Again, extremists exist in all religions. They are of unsound
mind and don't need to be given more publicity on discussion
forums.

It would be more productive to call on people in our country,
to support all those who at this time are grieving and
distressed.

We don't need any more negativity or dehumanizing posts
brought to our attention.

We don't need this conflict to stoke division here.

mhaze,

The destruction of Hamas won't solve anything unless
Israel stops its mistreatment of the Palestinian
people, its land grabs, and its settlement expansions.
Another movement will take the place of Hamas
and it could be even more extreme.

Benjamin Netanyahu has made it quite clear that Israel
is - "Not a State for ALL of its citizens. Israel is
the nation state of the Jewish people - and only it."

Netanyahu leads what is seen as the most right-wing
government in Israel's history.

Israel is supported not only by the US but all of
Europe as well. It can't claim the status of a
persecuted nation. Not when it's the most powerful
military nation in the middle-east - and is
persecuting the Palestinians in a series of mass
atrocities under the guise of their right to defend
themselves.

Palestinians also have that right.

The actions of world leaders are too weak, too slow, as
a non-binding United Nations resolution for a humanitarian
truce has done nothing to reign in the indiscriminate
violence unleashed on a helpless people.

The international community must take stronger action to
urge Israel to stop the bloodshed. People are being killed
and forcibly displaced from their homes and water, food,
medical supplies are running low.

You and I can argue about this ad-infinitem - but it's
up to world leaders to come forward and say - "Enough!"

Visiting Israel to show support - does not help. It
gives Israel a blank cheque for "business as usual."

Scott Morrison and Boris Johnson should have stayed home.

Foxy is still supporting Hamas with stop the war and excusing their barbarism. We have Hamas supporters in Australia whipping up violence against Australian citizens and she excuses and down-plays the problem, blaming the messengers.

I've just read an article that tells us that
Victoria's peak Jewish community body and
at least two rabbis have pulled out of the
Jewish Christian and Muslim Association of
Australia (JCMA).

The inter-faith body has been left in turmoil
with the announcement that its President -
Rabbi Gabi Kaltmann, past president Rabbi
Ralph Genende - have quit and the Jewish
Community Council of Victoria (JCCV) has
suspended its participation.

What a shame. I would have thought that
during this difficult time - building
bridges, or linger tables would be more
important than building walls.

As people of faith they should be encouraging
people in Australia to treat each other with
respect and give each other support - especially
all those grieving and distressed.

However it would appear that they may want
obedience to the Likud line - that Palestinians
are 1) evil 2) violent 3) anti-Semitic.

A bad sign of paranoia, ignorance and racism,
amongst the Zionists - it is unfortunate that the
Victorian Jewish community Council has
chosen this path of even more division.

Josephus,

I am not supporting Hamas.

I do not support any terrorist organizations,
fundamentalists or extremists., be they Israeli
or Palestinian.

And I am merely trying to separate the myths
from the facts by quoting from reputable sources.

You should try doing the same.

We need to liberate ourselves from genuflecting
towards just one side on this conflict. How about
rambing up responsibility on both sides.

"Another movement will take the place of Hamas
and it could be even more extreme."

But, but....you keep telling us the Gazans are opposed to Hamas. Yet now you say they'll follow a group even more extreme.

"The gassing of Jews calls outside the Sydney Opera
house came from a tiny minority"

And the calls for Palestine to be established from the river to the sea? Were they also a tiny minority? Do you know that is a call for the destruction of Israel?

"Evidence of the beheading of babies? This has not been
able to be verified."

I linked the evidence. But if you don't see it, it doesn't exist, I guess.

"Benjamin Netanyahu has made it quite clear that Israel
is - "Not a State for ALL of its citizens. Israel is
the nation state of the Jewish people - and only it."

And Israel allowed and supported the establishment of Gaza that was just for Gazans and only them. They even forcibly removed Israeli settlers. And within two years rockets were being fired from Gaza into Israel.

Hamas isn't interested in peace negotiations. Their own charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew. There's no negotiating with that. You think they are reasonable people who can be reasoned with andd bought off. You're very very wrong.

Foxy, I know that you want to forget/ignore this, but the present conflict was caused by Hamas's surprise attack on unarmed Jewish civilians, brutal murders, rapes, burning people alive....and then videoing it and sending the videos back home for the relatives to celebrate over. And now you want Israel to just accept it.

" it's up to world leaders to come forward and say - "Enough!".

And then what? Hamas survives and begins to plan the next attack for you to ignore and rapidly forget.

Foxy, you face no real threat. The Jewish Rabbi do, read the verses of the Koran,
8:12, "God revealed his will to the messenger, saying 'Ishall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off te very tips of their fingers."

That children were decapitated is highly likely.

Spectator Australia for the 4th November has an editorial titled 'Go to war but don't kill anyone", dealing with the the attitude of "handwringing" leaders of the Western world with their "tut-tutting" and sanctimonious approach to Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself but, as Albanese says, "Every life matters".

The "bellowing" Left didn’t say that about the murder of 1,400 Jews by Hamas that started the conflict. A "cowardly silence" prevailed.

Israel is always held, by the Left, to higher standards than everyone else. The Australian idiot of a Foreign Minister has several times called for "restraint" from Israel, but not the barbaric Hamas baby-killers. The hypocrisy of that woman is sickening. She was lauded on the social media account of the "Hamas-supporting Quds News Network". How proud she must be!

I actually agree with Foxy that Hamas are not anti-Semites:

They don't particularly hate Jews,
They just hate anyone who has 2 or 4 legs.

ISIS at least tested their victims before executing them, so if they were able to recite a verse from the Quran, then they were off the hook.
The women they captured too, if they were willing to convert to Islam, then they were married off to one of them, but not killed.

But Hamas asked no questions - they murdered many Israeli Muslims too, they murdered many Thai workers who are Buddhists, they also killed cats and dogs, then they burned the houses of their dead victims, which ISIS did not. They even murdered 100's of their own "Palestinians" who attempted to flee the bombings, and killed 1000's more of them with failed rockets. Earlier, when they just got into power, they threw many good Muslims off the roofs of tall buildings.

No, they are not anti-Semites, that was a wrong diagnostic.

How a ceasefire works....

http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/28369a58bd0097cfacbb4ea9e146a69d18ee110181b57ea5a2c52c55f719051f.gif

Bernie Sanders has been supporting the wrong side since he started touting for the USSR back in the 1980's. But even he can see the truth about Hamas...

Sanders was asked.."Do you support a ceasefire and if not, why not?".

His response..." "I don't know how you can have a permanent ceasefire with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel."

"And I think what the Arab countries in the region understand is that Hamas has got to go,"

When you're to the left of Bernie, you really are in the realms of extremism.

Gentlemen,

I'd like to Thank you all for your contributions to
this discussion. However I have no further wish
to continue to argue with any of you. I see no point
in my repeating the same arguments.

I would like to call on everyone to support all those
who are grieving and distressed in our communities
and to treat each other with love and respect.

We don't need this conflict to strike division here.

I look forward to our next discussion.

If Israel wants to kill Muslim women and kids in the thousands while Al Jazeera plasters it all over the TV so that millions of Muslims watch it, then they're the ones playing with fire.

Dear Critic,

«If Israel wants to kill Muslim women and kids in the thousands while Al Jazeera plasters it all over the TV so that millions of Muslims watch it, then they're the ones playing with fire.»

Well that is obviously correct. If I like to drink a cup of nitric acid, then I would be the one playing with fire in my stomach. If you like to sneak into the lion's cage at the zoo, then you would be the one to play with the lion's digestive fire - the wondrous world of 'IF' clauses...

I would like to ask for some clarification on a statement you made a week or two ago, referring you to:
http://www.linkedin.com/posts/rabbipoupko_liel-weinstein-from-netanya-was-just-19-years-activity-7119868208764870656-8vgM

19 year old corporal Liel Weinstein, formerly a celebrity in Israel's kids TV show,
was conscripted and served as a cook in an Israeli military base close to Gaza.

Her only weapon was the kitchen ladle: according to your system of thought, since she was in uniform, was she "fair game" when murdered on October 7th?

mhaze: "...to further a messianic mission of killing all Jews."

The exact same 'messianic mission' argument could be levelled equally at Jews as much as Muslims.

Both sides here seem to have 'messianic missions', on the Jewish side it's continuing the taking of land to restore the 'biblical Israel' 'God gave it to us' etc, which is the cause of this grievance in this decades old conflict.

Its like mhaze literally trips over the biggest tree root in the yard, stumbles and falls over, and he doesn't even realise he did it.

I don't know how people can be so lacking in self awareness they don't even comprehend the dumb things they say.

"Both sides here seem to have 'messianic missions', on the Jewish side it's continuing the taking of land to restore the 'biblical Israel' 'God gave it to us' etc,"

Even if that were true - in fact its palpable rubbish - there's a vast difference between that and seeking to wipe out the population of an entire nation, which is Hamas' stated goal.

BTW AC, still waiting for you to show where I said Palestine was " unpopulated prior to 1948". Either that or an admission that you just made it up to try to salvage some self-respect for the hammering you've been taking. Or is owning up to this sort of thing not part of your make-up?

I'm still waiting for you to explain the intent and purpose for saying that Palestinians don't have a state.

Israeli Doctors Call for the Targeting of Gaza Hospitals, Ambulances
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/israeli-doctors-call-for-the-targeting-of-gaza-hospitals-ambulances/

If any other nation on the planet was doing what Israel is doing right now, the uproar by western leaders would be deafening.
- But because Israel has US congress in it's pocket, we all have to pretend these acts we see are reasonable and justified.

Well they're not.
You've just killed 5000 bloody kids in a matter of weeks, nearly 10 time the amount killed in Ukraine in over 18 months.
- And there are probably lots more uncounted under the rubble.

Anyone that doesn't condemn that, is no better than those dropping the bombs.

Israel is an apartheid child murdering terrorist state.
- And I hope they're never ever allowed to forget it.

They wanted to make sure nobody ever forgot the holocaust
I hope nobody forgets the holocaust of Gazan children.

Disgusting. Appalling. Unconscionable.

"Even if that were true - in fact its palpable rubbish"

http://twitter.com/CensoredMen/status/1721612696301326821
A Jewsih Rabbi says that everywhere Israel occupies, they should bomb ALL the churches of that region.

Dear Critic,

«You've just killed 5000 bloody kids in a matter of weeks, nearly 10 time the amount killed in Ukraine in over 18 months.»

Yesterday, on a different thread, you responded to me in agreement:

«"So can you think of some other way, something else which Israel could do instead and still effectively defend itself?"

No, honestly I can't really.
They can't do anything accept respond when Hamas is firing missiles at them.
And they can't abandon their people who were taken hostage by Hamas.»

I think that we two can otherwise agree in opposing several of Israel's policies, which you have every right to criticise - but not this one of defending their own children.

You too, I believe, can you honestly claim that if you, God forbid, had to defend and save your own children and the only way of doing so was by killing the children of those who try to kill yours and who were used by them as human shields, then you would have refrained from doing the same?

Ukraine did not use its children as human shields, that's why their child casualties were lower. Ukraine also never murdered its own children in order to boost the number of children whose death can be attributed to Russian aggression.

«A Jewsih Rabbi says that everywhere Israel occupies, they should bomb ALL the churches of that region.»

If that is true then I will gladly send this Rabbi to Gaza.

Regardless, I would still bomb any church under which it is clear that the enemy dug attack tunnels and where it stores weapons and ammunition.

AC, trying very hard to avoid admitting that he just makes things up out of whole clothe writes "I'm still waiting for you to explain the intent and purpose for saying that Palestinians don't have a state."

Well, AC, I've already explained it to you twice and really don't know how to dumb it down for you any further.

Speaking of making things up, AC writes "Israeli Doctors Call for the Targeting of Gaza Hospitals, Ambulances". As usual, AC just parrots the anti-Israel propaganda. In fact the doctors called for the targeting of Hamas terrorists even if they are hiding in hospitals and ambulances. The difference probably eludes AC - most things do. It is a war crime for combatants to use hospitals as a base or to use ambulances as a means of transport. Yet Hamas does both of those things. Two days ago, Egypt turned an ambulance back because it contained Hamas operatives rather than the injured. Of course to people like AC, only Israel is required to abide by the rules of war.

PALESTINE IN THE YEAR 1695
The author Relandi[1], a real scholar, geographer, cartographer and well known philologist, spoke perfect Hebrew, Arabic and ancient Greek, as well as the European languages. The book was written in Latin. In 1695 he was sent on a sightseeing tour to Israel, at that time known as Palestina. In his travels he surveyed approximately 2500 places where people lived that were mentioned in the bible or Mishnah. His research method was interesting.
He first mapped the Land of Israel.
Secondly, Relandi identifies each of the places mentioned in the Mishnah or Talmud along with their original source. If the source was Jewish, he listed it together with the appropriate sentence in the Holy Scriptures. If the source was Roman or Greek he presented the connection in Greek or Latin.
Thirdly, he also arranged a population survey and census of each community.
His most prominent conclusions
1. Not one settlement in the Land of Israel has a name that is of Arabic origin. Most of the settlement names originate in the Hebrew, Greek, Latin or Roman languages. In fact, till today, except to Ramlah, not one Arabic settlement has an original Arabic name. Till today, most of the settlements names are of Hebrew or Greek origin, the names distorted to senseless Arabic names. There is no meaning in Arabic to names such as Acco (Acre), Haifa, Jaffa, Nablus, Gaza, or Jenin and towns named Ramallah, El Halil and El-Kuds (Jerusalem) lack historical roots or Arabic philology. In 1696, the year Relandi toured the land, Ramallah, for instance, was called Bet'allah (From the Hebrew name Beit El) and Hebron was called Hebron (Hevron) and the Arabs called Mearat HaMachpelah El Chalil, their name for the Forefather Abraham.

2. Most of the land was empty, desolate, and the inhabitants few in number and mostly concentrate in the towns Jerusalem, Acco, Tzfat, Jaffa, Tiberius and Gaza. Most of the inhabitants were Jews and the rest Christians. There were few Muslims, mostly nomad Bedouins. Nablus, known as Shchem, was exceptional, where approximately 120 people, members of the Muslim Natsha family and approximately 70 Shomronites, lived.
In the Galilee capital, Nazareth, lived approximately 700 Christians and in Jerusalem approximately 5000 people, mostly Jews and some Christians.
The interesting part was that Relandi mentioned the Muslims as nomad Bedouins who arrived in the area as construction and agriculture labor reinforcement, seasonal workers.
In Gaza for example, lived approximately 550 people, fifty percent Jews and the rest mostly Christians. The Jews grew and worked in their flourishing vineyards, olive tree orchards and wheat fields (remember Gush Katif?) and the Christians worked in commerce and transportation of produce and goods. Tiberius and Tzfat were mostly Jewish and except of mentioning fishermen fishing in Lake Kinneret -- the Lake of Galilee -- a traditional Tiberius occupation, there is no mention of their occupations. A town like Um el-Phahem was a village where ten families, approximately fifty people in total, all Christian, lived and there was also a small Maronite church in the village (The Shehadah family).

3. The book totally contradicts any post-modern theory claiming a Palestinian heritage, or Palestinian nation. The book strengthens the connection, relevance, pertinence, kinship of the Land of Israel to the Jews and the absolute lack of belonging to the Arabs, who robbed the Latin name Palestina and took it as their own.
In Granada, Spain, for example, one can see Arabic heritage and architecture. In large cities such as Granada and the land of Andalucia, mountains and rivers like Guadalajara, one can see genuine Arabic cultural heritage: literature, monumental creations, engineering, medicine, etc. Seven hundred years of Arabic reign left in Spain an Arabic heritage that one cannot ignore, hide or camouflage. But here, in Israel there is nothing like that! Nada, as the Spanish say! No names of towns, no culture, no art, no history, and no evidence of Arabic rule; only huge robbery, pillaging and looting; stealing the Jews holiest place, robbing the Jews of their Promised Land. Lately, under the auspices of all kind of post modern Israelis - also hijacking and robbing us of our Jewish history.
Footnote
[1] From www.answers.com: Adrian Reland (1676-1718), Dutch Orientalist, was born at Ryp, studied at Utrecht and Leiden, and was professor of Oriental languages successively at Harderwijk (1699) and Utrecht (1701). His most important works were Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata (Utrecht, 1714), and Antiquitates sacrae veterum Hebraeorum.

Written by Avi Goldreich

"You've just killed 5000 bloody kids in a matter of weeks"

OTOH

http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3b0662784d1acf8f51ffa0f6b23654eacd16b83c390694935fb9b61edfc903c8.jpg

If you wish to minimise what Israel is doing, or write it off as insignificant, or sweep it under the rug...
Then in my eyes you're actually defending it, and even possibly supporting it.

And that's a disgraceful position to have..

No. I'm just pointing out how gullible you are in falling for every claim put out by the Hamas Health Dept and their ancillary propaganda arms.

"No. I'm just pointing out how gullible you are in falling for every claim put out by the Hamas Health Dept and their ancillary propaganda arms."

You and shadow minister are as bad as each other.
You seem to take this position 'If my enemy said it, it must be a lie'.
- And that means there's no reasoning with you, not even the potential of reasoning with you...
Why - because everything my enemy says is automatically a lie.
- And there's no possibility of getting to the root causes of the problem;
- No possibility that 2 sides can ever reconcile and make peace.

You know how I know this is true?
Even when Israel themselves admitted to targeting the ambulances, you were still trying to say Hamas did it, and was targeting civilians trying to move from the north to the south.

You would automatically blame the other side as an initial biased starting point, and stick with that flawed assumption even when info to the contrary was released.

[Cont.]
Israel dropped some 6000 bombs in the first week or so, and there was only 2500 - 3000 reported dead. Considering the strikes I saw leveling buildings I'd say the casualties were actually under reported, and since then I've been told that re: the count of dead in Gaza, only physical bodies retrieved are counted, it does not include the dead under the rubble, and I saw some new satellite pictures a day or so back, and that place has been turned into Bakhmut like wasteland.

The people had nowhere to go, (whilst Hamas was safe in it's underground anthill) and Israel was dropping bombs on apartment buildings.
- I saw footage of 12 x 14 storey buildings levelled in a single missile barrage, so don't imply I'm the idiot for believing the Gazan Health Authorities, the actual number of dead in this most populated place on earth is probably much higher, as is the number of IDF killed. I heard they lost 12 tanks yesterday.
http://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status/1721879103089819775

You went on and on about how Israel did not target the hospital, even though there was already other footage I saw that they were doing double tap strikes upon rescue workers after a first initial strike.
And since then we've seen Israel deliberately target many hospitals, mosques, churches, refugee camps, but somehow you cling to some scorecard where you made me look stupid 2 weeks ago or something;
- And that Israel, is this pillar of righteousness.

Well they are no such thing.
Anyone who is happy to murder kids and call it collatoral damage, and keeps doing it, supports it or defends it, while at the same to claiming any criticism of Israel is from Jew-hating anti-semites....

Well put it this way, I think all you Israel apologists must be completely fecked in the head, no offense.

But hey, that's my opinion, and that's why we're all here.
So if you don't like it I don't care what you say.
You defend the unnecessary killing of kids, so your opinion isn't worth much anyway.

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1722133006725349518
Netanyahu is a WAR CRIMINAL
Israel is a terrorist state.

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1721799135731257551
Little Palestinian girl says a final goodbye to her family killed by Israeli airstrikes on Gaza.
Absolutely heartbreaking
Israel is traumatizing a whole generation of Palestinian kids.
Funded by the US govt

Hi AC

It's a shame you don't feel the same for the Ukrainian citizens murdered by Russia as you do for those used as human shields by a terrorist organisation hell bent on conducting a holocaust in Israel.

We are all human beings, even Jews, AC.

Hi Fester,

"It's a shame you don't feel the same for the Ukrainian citizens murdered by Russia as you do for those used as human shields by a terrorist organisation hell bent on conducting a holocaust in Israel."

First of all 'human shields' in Gaza...
How can anyone be used as a human shield if they're in their own home?

As for terrorist organisation...
Hamas is not just a militia, it's the entire government in Gaza, Al Qassam brigade is the military arm of Hamas.
And they have a legitimate right to fight occupation.
If you recognise Ukraines fight to defend it's borders why not Palestinians?

The majority of Israelis killed on Oct 7 (just over half) were active members of the IDF, (and many more were hostages caught in the crossfire, and you should look up Hannibal directive, an Israeli military policy aimed at preventing the capture of Israeli soldiers (or citizens) by enemy forces – at any cost.

http://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/3/whats-the-hannibal-directive-a-former-israeli-soldier-tells-all

The reason why there was no significant IDF response for 6 to 7 hours was because Hamas successfully attacked IDF in their barracks.

You should also look up Dahiya Doctrine which is a military strategy that uses overwhelming force on civilian infrastructure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine#

Do you want to know how many kids in Ukraine die each day on average? Answer = 3
And while 3 kids is 3 too many in Gaza we have hundreds killed every day.

And as for Ukraine I was always pushing for a negotiated settlement, I was the one also saying negotiations were taking place in April 2022 and the west scuttled it. It was people like SM and yourself supporting the Ukrainian side who also refused negotiations, and now there's half a million dead Ukrainians.

You should all hear the other side of the story, even just for some balance:

Hamas published pre-recorded press conference in English about their side of story that never reached mainstream media.
http://twitter.com/ozbozeth/status/1721177530521313411

These are the warmongers with the wrong attitude
http://twitter.com/SprinterX99880/status/1720495846998077447
“I say to the residents of the Gaza Strip! Those who can contribute to the release of the hostages will be protected, the rest deserve to die ,” former Israeli Defense Minister Benny Gantz said on Israeli television.

And this one right here is especially for mhaze
- Who supports / tried to defend the killing of / minimise or trivialise the suffering of - innocent kids.

DOES THIS LOOK STAGED TO YOU MHAZE?
http://twitter.com/Bernadotte22/status/1721983795501367618

This is what you're all defending and supporting?
Don't dare criticise, you might be an anti-semite.
- And the Lord may frown upon you if you criticise his chosen people.

Was she Hamas?
Was Hamas hiding inside her empty 7 year old skull cavity?

US military aid spent well?
More US jobs, good for the 'states' and the US economy?

Everything America touches turns to this.

Hannibal Directive’: Did Israel kill its own?
http://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/hannibal-directive-did-israel-kill-its-own-15574953
'The high civilian death toll during the recent Hamas attack has sparked a debate on whether Israel employed a notorious military doctrine.'

>>In the days that followed the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel, Hamas was blamed for the killing of approximately 1400 Israelis. Many of these deaths apparently occurred at Kibbutz Beeri.

Israel has used this in part to “justify” its ongoing military attack of Gaza, which (time of writing) has claimed the lives of nearly 7000 Palestinians, 2665 of whom are children.

An eye-opening article, however, published by Mondoweiss has thrown into question how responsible Hamas is for the Israeli deaths. Authored by someone who decided to remain anonymous to avoid reprisal, the piece specifically points to how it was not Hamas necessarily behind them.

Instead, it was Israeli forces themselves.

This is consistent with the experience of Jerusalem-based journalist, Quique Kierszenbaum, who visited the area of Kibbutz Beeri on October 11.

“Building after building has been destroyed, whether in the Hamas assault or in the fighting that followed [between Hamas and Israeli forces], nearby trees splintered and walls reduced to concrete rubble from where Israeli tanks blasted the Hamas fighters where they were hiding,” wrote Kierszenbaum in his recent piece for The Guardian.

“Floors collapsed on floors. Roof beams were tangled and exposed like rib cages.”<<

Okay AC. So all those murdered Israelis, including many women and children, were off duty Israeli soldiers, and all those Gazan people killed just happened to be living atop terrorist tunnels and bunkers? Maybe the Gazans killed were off duty terrorists? The head of Hamas has stated that civilian deaths are part of the plan, so it makes sense that they use their own as human shields.

AC raves "You seem to take this position 'If my enemy said it, it must be a lie'."

I showed you the actual photos. Just declaring that it isn't true because you don't want it to be true, isn't a winning strategy if you want to get to the truth. But we all know that isn't your aim, is it.

AC lied: "Even when Israel themselves admitted to targeting the ambulances, you were still trying to say Hamas did it,"

Well that's simply untrue. More made up assertions. I never made any such claims. I'll just add it to the list of things you assert which are just straight out fabrications, shall I? I'd ask for a retraction, but this is AC and such an honourable course is not in his DNA.

Let's try and make it simple for you AC. You won't understand but I can but try. Thousands of Gazans have already died. Thousands more will die. They are dying because Hamas is using them as human shields. Hospitals are being targeted because Hamas uses them as bases for its activities. I know you don't want that to be true, but alas it is.

Hamas has spent almost 2 decades trying to kill Israelis and destroy their state. When it was just rockets and the odd bloke looking to get early access to his 72 virgins, that was barely acceptable. But on 7/10 they massively overstepped the mark. Israel has decided that Hamas will be destroyed. That, despite best efforts, means Hamas's human shields are in the firing line. But Hamas must be destroyed.

Israel advised non-combatant Gazans to leave Gaza city to avoid the bloodshed. Many did and we were told that those that didn't, couldn't. Yet yesterday, as Israel closed in tens of thousands more, those who we were told couldn't leave, left.

Its war. People die. People especially die when one side wants to hide behind them

The Koran Agenda.

http://www.facebook.com/reel/333856199249738

Sadly, mostly, Australia and the apathetic Australians living in it, believe that the mainstream media tells "truth". Post 9/11, Madrid Bombing & London Bombings there has been less and less "news" available, but more so propaganda from governments world wide by media in all its forms.

AC has fallen for a lot of gumph in his time but this takes the cake..."

"the piece specifically points to how it was not Hamas necessarily behind them [the 7/10 massacres].Instead, it was Israeli forces themselves."

Meanwhile Hamas themselves are saying it was them and that provoking Israel to war was their plan.... http://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Who to believe? Hamas or AC's anonymous fantasies?

Some of the stuff he chose to believe about the war on the Eurasian steppes was pretty funny, but this is order of magnitude more moronic.

Oh if he needs more evidence, here's the photos.... http://honestreporting.com/photographers-without-borders-ap-reuters-pictures-of-hamas-atrocities-raise-ethical-questions/

Hi Yuyutsu,
"19 year old corporal Liel Weinstein, formerly a celebrity in Israel's kids TV show, was conscripted and served as a cook in an Israeli military base close to Gaza.

Her only weapon was the kitchen ladle: according to your system of thought, since she was in uniform, was she "fair game" when murdered on October 7th?"

Well I don't know the details of her death, if Hamas attacked a military barracks, they probably would've shot everything that moved.
She may have defended her fellow soldiers, come at Hamas with a knife or a weapon, I don't know.

But in any case yes, not just Liel Weinstein, but any member wearing an IDF uniform is 'fair game' so long as the Palestinians remain stateless and subjugated.

Think of Jews in a concentration camp.
Do they have a right to fight back against their captors? Yes.

"You too, I believe, can you honestly claim that if you, God forbid, had to defend and save your own children and the only way of doing so was by killing the children of those who try to kill yours and who were used by them as human shields, then you would have refrained from doing the same?"

I would do what I have to do to protect my kid, as any decent parent would.
I think however there's a difference between that (what I said above) and what Israel is doing.
I can't think of any situation where I'd have to harm other peoples kids on the scale Israel is doing to protect my own.
And personally if Hamas were as bad as suggested, then I would expect them to start shooting hostages with every bomb dropped.
Dropping all those bombs doesn't seem like a good way to get them back in one piece.

Just to follow on Yuyutsu,

What if it wasn't just Liel Weinstein killed in an IDF barracks, but her whole family home was bombed just because she was in the IDF
That is probably closer to what Israel is doing.
http://twitter.com/GazaMartyrs/status/1722147736647061793

Hi Fester
"Okay AC. So all those murdered Israelis, including many women and children, were off duty Israeli soldiers, and all those Gazan people killed just happened to be living atop terrorist tunnels and bunkers? Maybe the Gazans killed were off duty terrorists? The head of Hamas has stated that civilian deaths are part of the plan, so it makes sense that they use their own as human shields."

- I never said ALL were 'active soldiers', I said 'just over half'
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1722059911537033514
If this info is accurate, then I'd say maybe 55% IDF (maybe 750) and 45% being civilian casualties (maybe 650).

Of those 650 - if you asked me how many were killed by Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, I really wouldn't like to speculate, but I'm sure there is footage of Hamas firing on non-combatants but it may be that IDF also killed a significant number of them.

This article gives an idea of things.
October 7 testimonies reveal Israel’s military ‘shelling’ Israeli citizens with tanks, missiles
http://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

I know there are a lot of burned out cars near the location of the music festival, maybe many people were trying to escape.
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1722529487295029374
How many of those cars had people in them I don't know.
http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1722686327852802430

Israel admits apache helicopters fired on their own civilians running from the Supernova music festival.
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

- The truth never comes out straight away.
What we got here just as in Ukraine is a media script.
It takes a while for stories to filter through to expose the narrative, and by that time most of the people have made up their minds about the issue and have gone on with their lives.

"I showed you the actual photos. Just declaring that it isn't true because you don't want it to be true, isn't a winning strategy if you want to get to the truth. But we all know that isn't your aim, is it."

If off memory you showed me a picture of destroyed ambulances at Al-Shaifa hospital, please understand Israel admitted to the strike there, and there were actually 3 strikes on ambulance convoys at the same time, one of which was on Rasheed street, which was the footage of bodies all over the road.

"Meanwhile Hamas themselves are saying it was them and that provoking Israel to war was their plan...."
- Well any attack would've would've automatically lead to reprisal attacks on civilians, anticipating this would've been obvious.
But I think they knew how Israel would react and set out to get the reaction they have gotten, knowing the world would be appalled by what they see.

I'd argue that Hamas carefully looked at things, specifically Israels weaknesses and as it turns out they found a way for the Netanyahu government to get bitten by it's own sting.

Israel will lose a lot more conscripts going into Gaza, than what they lost on Oct 7, (which will cause outrage itself) but for now it's the outrage of hostages families which will cause them to go in.

Israel has been acting tough and ruthless
http://twitter.com/CensoredMen/status/1722391152823869496
- But it's this attitude which will bring them down

Don't forget we saw them kill a few hundred Palestinians just a few years back just for approaching the border fence.

Israel will never live this down in the eyes of the world.
They're genocidal child murderers, and saying 'Jew-Haters' and 'anti-semite' probably won't be as effective a way to stifle criticism anymore.

http://twitter.com/OzraeliAvi/status/1722476902999568732
Jews are refused service in shops in Melbourne, though I'm sure the government will quickly put an end to that discrimination.

AC : "If off memory you showed me a picture of destroyed ambulances at Al-Shaifa hospital,"

Are you hopelessly confused or pretending to be confused to just try to hide lies?

Let me recap....You showed a clip of someone riding a bike along a Gazan street filled with bodies, and, you claimed, as is your wont, that they were all killed by the joos. I then showed you (1) that the Arabic commentary over the clip was saying it wasn't done by Israel and (2) other comment said they were shot by Hamas snippers because Hamas doesn't want its human shields to get away. Nothing to do with a ambulance incident. I never disputed Israel took out the ambulance although they did it because it contained Hamas soldiers in contravention of international rules which of course, in your mind, don't apply to Hamas.

As to the photos, I was pointing out that they put a lie to your claims about Israeli propaganda. Which, as usual, went over your head.

Now we find AC holding two completely contradictory views at the same time and pretending both are true. (1)Oh the massacre wasn't done by Hamas; it was done by the evil joos.(2) Of course the massacre was done by Hamas and wasn't that clever of them to force Israel's response.

You can't make this up.

Hi mhaze,
Why the hell do you go on and on about things?
'Wait that argument we had weeks ago, I'm not finished yet'
- [rolls eyes]

"I then showed you (1) that the Arabic commentary over the clip was saying it wasn't done by Israel and (2) other comment said they were shot by Hamas snippers because Hamas doesn't want its human shields to get away. Nothing to do with a ambulance incident. I never disputed Israel took out the ambulance although they did it because it contained Hamas soldiers in contravention of international rules which of course, in your mind, don't apply to Hamas."

It seems more like you're the one with cognitive dissonance trying to hold 2 conflicting positions at the same time, not me...
So your argument comes down to some 'other comment'?
That's all you've got?

Read the facts
http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-israeli-ambulance-strike-apparently-unlawful-enarhe

Israel was actively targeting ambulances on the basis they believed they were being used to transport weapons and members of Hamas.
Those people weren't laying all over the road from snipers, and civilians weren't shot by Hamas.
(Hamas: "Let's waste our limited ammo on our own people - we don't need it for Israels expected ground offensive, 2 down 2 million to go... Team Israel Yay!" - don't talk rot, at least make it believeable)

They were all over the road as occupants of a moving vehicle that was targeted by Israel,
- who admitted they were targeting ambulances in that location and at that time.

At the end of the day all wars are a consequence of a failure in diplomacy.
'Put yourself in your adversaries shoes'.

If you don't like wars or needless killing of the civilian population, then support diplomacy instead.
You can't bark about civilian casualties in Ukraine and then turn a blind eye to it in Israel.
- You just look completely biased, not to mention stupid.

Both wars US - Ukraine / Russia and US - Israel / Palestine are a result of the failure to recognise each other parties interests, (to dictate to the other side) and a failure (or US / Ukrainian / Israeli policies) to NOT negotiate and NOT resolve the disagreements.

That made war inevitable;
- And close to 2 million dead and wounded are the current result of it

Dear Critic,

On further investigation, Liel Weinstein was killed in the rave party rather than in her nearby barracks. She must have been allowed a few hours leave that night and it would be unlikely that she danced in uniform (at a peace party).

As well as conscripted cooks, Israel's army also employs civilians in its kitchens, usually the senior chefs while junior soldiers like Liel spent more time peeling onions.

Now I do find your logic wanting, according to which a 19 year old conscript, whose only "crime" was to turn 18 in relative health, for which she was sent for two years of peeling onions without being asked, is more responsible for why the "Palestinians remain stateless and subjugated" than her 40 year old boss, the chef, who has taken the job voluntarily, for pay - just because she wears uniform and he doesn't...

In reality, the reason they remain stateless is that they just never wanted a state of their own. Also those who are subjugated are subjugated by their own corrupt leadership, not by Israel. How could "subjugated" people ever be able to dig all these tunnels and acquire all those weapons?

«Think of Jews in a concentration camp.»

They were not taken and held there because they attacked Germans.
They had no measure of autonomy.
They were not allowed to leave even when other countries were happy to take them.

«I can't think of any situation where I'd have to harm other peoples kids on the scale Israel is doing to protect my own.»

Can you think of yourself in Israel's situation?

They just found a missile-production factory next to children's bedroom: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12729573/Israeli-troops-Hamas-engage-heavy-close-quarters-fighting-Gaza-City-IDF-forces-uncover-weapons-factory-kindergarten-childrens-bedroom.html

«And personally if Hamas were as bad as suggested, then I would expect them to start shooting hostages with every bomb dropped.»

So do you think they just love the hostages, or do they rather love themselves and want to keep some of their cards for later?

"You can't bark about civilian casualties in Ukraine and then turn a blind eye to it in Israel.
- You just look completely biased, not to mention stupid."

I don't "bark about civilian casualties in Ukraine". Another lie? I'll add it to the list.

"You just look completely biased"

You're confusing my views with yours.

"Both wars....are a result of the failure to recognise each other parties interests"

Almost all wars are. But in these cases the wars are about one party defending itself against aggression from the other. I'll leave you to ponder which is which.

And speaking of "looking...stupid".

I point out that he now holds two completely contradictory views simultaneous, while fervently believes both.... and not only doesn't he not deny it, he doesn't even try to defend it.