One would have thought that Hamas and the Israeli Government are more than enough when it comes to causing a crisis in the Middle East and there seems to be no end to the current conflict.

What makes the situation worse however is direct interference from Christian fundamentalists in the United States and Republicans supported by such people.

It all seems absurd, but it is real, and it is actually happening. Christian fundamentalists play a huge role over numerous aspects of American society, life and world politics - including in the Middle East.

http://cufi.org/

Alarming is the role of fundamentalist Christian backed organisations in the United States destabilising the Middle East by among other things supporting aggressive Israeli settlers and forcing Palestinians out of their homes. It's shocking.

The fundamentalist Christian influence on Republican politicians, who tend to rely on the evangelical vote and such people/groups aiming to advance their agenda in terms of Israel only adds to the current crisis in places like Gaza and the Middle East.

With all of this in mind, what do we do here?

Don't forget pro Israel lobby groups such as AIPAC.

Not much can be done.
US neoconservatives like Biden, Blinken, Nuland, Haley, Graham etc. probably want use this Israel / Palestine conflict as a pretense to attack Iran, they all want more military funding and that's why Jim Jordon won't get US speaker.

Did you all know that Dwight D. Eisenhower's speech on the 'Military Industrial Complex' was actually written to say 'Military Industrial Congressional Complex', but the word 'Congressional' was removed?

These people want more wars and want to continue to rule the 'Unipolar' world in their own interests, and as we saw with the Nordstream pipeline their will even screw over their own allies and their citizens to ensure it.
They do not have 'partners' just subordinate vassal states.

Think of the 'Lion King' movie
The US is the lion king named 'Scar' that doesn't want to give up being the leader, and all it's western vassal states are the hyena's.
They all follow a script and attack the 'bad' nations.

These people can't be stopped, if they want wars there will be wars.
The only thing that will stop them is if the bite off more than they can chew, lose the fight and get a blood nose.

US needs ‘Department of Offense, not Defense’ to intimidate foes: Nikki Haley
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/10/22/713204/US-REPUBLICAN-HALEY--DEPARTMENT-OF-OFFENSE
Hawkish Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley has called for the creation of a “Department of Offense” instead of Defense to enable the US to instill fear in their foreign enemies and better enforce Washington’s belligerent foreign policy.

Take him out': Graham intensifies calls to assassinate Putin - FOX
http://youtu.be/UoRojyazmQc

US and Israel should bomb Iran: Senator Lindsey Graham
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231012-us-and-israel-should-bomb-iran-senator-lindsey-graham/

The US can't help itself to meddle in other nations internal affairs with a policy of threats, blackmail, liberal and military interventions.
- And it will go out of it's way to pick a fight with anyone that has the potential to rival it.
It's not going to give up it's position as world hegemon and strongers military superpower without a fight.

The New York Times tells us that "Neutrality, isn't
an option," when it comes to Israel as far as
Conservative Christians are concerned in the United
States. Conservative Christians are said to have strong
connections and form the backbone of Republican support.

They are tied to beliefs about biblical promises and
prophecy. American Evangelicals we're told are among Israel's
most ardent supporters, compelled in part by their
interpretation of scripture that says God's ancient
promise to the Jewish people designated the right as their
homeland and that this is unbreakable.

How can one argue with God?

Seriously though, Evangelicals also see Israel's existence
connected to biblical prophecy about the last days of the
world before a divine theocratic kingdom can be established
on earth.

Evangelical leaders are now across the United States calling
for the support of Israel in sermons, public statements, and
calls for action.

No wonder the US politicians have to be carefull as to what
they say or do and who they choose to support.

If not Israel - you just may lose your job.

Religion in this case is indeed a powerful force. And how odd
is that? Giving support to a people whose religion does not
recognize their Christian God as their God or Messiah.

Weird - right?

According to some Christian prophecy 2024 is the date of Iran lodging a Nuclear Bomb in Jerusalem splitting the Hill in two.

Now let's get this straight. The US (P)resident is a Democrat. The US Senate is Democrat. The US Secretary of State (equivalent to our Foreign Minister) is a Democrat who lied to get Biden elected. Until a few weeks back the head of the armed forces was a Trump hating Democrat (not sure about the current head, yet). The FBI is run by a Trump hating Democrat. The CIA also.

Yet the war and ancillary issues are caused by Republicans and their followers? Struth. Logic takes a holiday.

Might I point out that in those halcyon days of 2016-20 when the US was actually run by Republicans, there was no new wars, the Russian steppes were relatively quiet, the empire-builder in the Kremlin was cowed, Hamas likewise, Iran on the run and the Abraham Accords within sight of a true peace between Israel and leading Arab states.

All that was lost in November 2020, and the people Nathan et al are trying to exonerate (ie the Democrats and their anti-religion cohorts)
have royally screwed up whatever they've laid their hands on.

Trump wins in 2020 and there's no war on the Russian steppes, no war in Gaza, Taiwan safe, South Korea too. Biden wins in 2020 and we see the outcome. But the usual crowd are anxious to look elsewhere.

Democrats... Republicans...
That argument stinks like a tradies used pair of socks.

Uniparty.
Military Industrial 'Congressional' Complex.
Neoconsevatives.
Zionists.

Wake up and smell the real America you fool.

When Trump stacks his cabinet with warmongering scumbags like John Bolton, Mike Pompeo, Nikki Haley, McMaster etc and bumchums up to Lindsay Graham...
- Then whatever party is in office makes little difference.

Stop sniffing the dirty socks, and try to see the bigger picture for once
If you can't do that then you're a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

Good article Foxy,

http://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/us/american-evangelicals-israel-hamas.html

"American Evangelicals we're told are among Israel's
most ardent supporters, compelled in part by their
interpretation of scripture that says God's ancient
promise to the Jewish people designated the right as their
homeland and that this is unbreakable."

Christian Zionists are the worst.
They further the cause of their own demise.

And they are idiots too.
The Jewish claim to the land under God is not unconditional.
It was a covenant that those Jews act as righteous people not as oppressors.
Fail to heed God's word results in God coming back to punish them.

There's a verse in the bible that says you reap what you sow.
It's just as much an ethical idea as a religious one.
So if Israel wants to keep up the bs, it's going to get what's coming to it.

"When Trump stacks his cabinet with warmongering scumbags..."

Warmongering scumbags....who didn't in 4 years start any wars and closed down a couple. Struth what a dill.

AC, you might find this useful... http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/logic

The Jewish migrants have only ever been given two options by the resident population: Leave or be killed. Peaceful coexistence and/or separate state options have never been accepted. There is no more reason to bring others into the argument as there is with any other hateful and intolerant anti-immigration movement.

Hi Armchair Critic,

Back to the topic of religion and - US support of Israel.

Brookings Institute has an article that tells us that there
does appear shifting attitudes towards Israel in the United
States. We're told that it is evangelical attitudes towards
Israel that account for most of the Republican Party's support
for Israel.

They say that without evangelicals republican attitudes on
Israel do not substantially deviate from the rest of the
United States.

Israeli Ambassador to the United States Ron Dermer said that
Israel should spend more time reaching out to "passionate"
American evangelicals. And Israel's former consul-general
in New York Dan Dayan critically added that
" our embassy in the US
capital has invested much of its energy in its relationship
with conservative Republican evangelicals, and a certain type
of Jew only.

It appears that younger evangelicals are much less supportive
of Israel than older evangelicals by a widening margin.

There's much more at:

http://brookings.edu/articles/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/

The summary given is:

"The bottom line is that there is evidence of a substantial
and unusual shift. If the Israeli right is pinning its hopes
on solid support from evangelicals as the backbone of US
patronage of the Jewish state anchored by a biblical
narrative that sidesteps international laws and norms - as
witnessed during the Trump administration - the trends among
young evangelicals raise questions about the trajectory
of strong religiously-driven evangelical support for Israel."

According to some you would never realize America has the largest number of Jews outside Israel. Any decent Christian supports a decent democracy and Israel is the only democratic State in the Middle East. What is rising in America is the New World Order and wokeism as taught in Universities, these are signs of the anti-Christ.

Hi Josephus,
I should probably pick your statement above apart, but I'm not sure I have the time right now.
So many keywords and phrases there to drill down on like:

'Any decent Christian' 'decent democracy' 'Israel is the only democratic State in the Middle East' 'New World Order' 'wokeism' 'signs of the anti-Christ'.

Let's just start with 'Any decent Christian' shall we?

I'm not religious, I'm an 'agnostic' btw - a fencesitter.
I say 'I don't know' and if God really is real, then he knows I'm stuck on a technicality which says 'thou shalt not bear false witness';
So if God does exist, then he knows my heart and where I'm at.
But ultimately I don't know...

But I digress...

'Any decent Christian'...

'Do you really think democracy comes first' in the Christian order of priorities?
Whatever happened to: 'God First-Family Second-Church Third'?
Some might argue that this all seems a little complex...

So if it doubt, what a decent Christian would do this...

They ask themselves 'What would Jesus do?'

- And I'm fairly sure Jesus wouldn't be leveling buildings with smart bombs.
At a guess, he'd probably be there in Gaza trying to lend a hand to the widow, the wounded, and the newly orphaned.
- He actually preferred to hang out with the downtrodden, so I'm told.

If they aren't doing that, then they're not 'decent Christians',
They may not even be 'Christians' at all, possibly

With friends like these, who needs enemies?*?

They are Christian Evangelicals all right, but why are they referred to here as "religious"?
The book they rely on so fervently, the Bible, is not even a religious text, it's the national book of the Jews (which they seem to see themselves belonging to).

And if you ignorantly insist on calling these senseless idiots a "religious influence", then what about Islamic Hamas? Why are they not also mentioned as "religious influence" for the balance?

With friends like these, who needs enemies?!

"religious"

It's just a generic word to differentiate between people who follow any form of religious beliefs from those who don't.

Dear Critic,

I disagree that anything about their particular beliefs is religious.

But this we already discussed in the past.

Suppose we continue to disagree and you insist that their motives are religious, then why mention them alone? why not mention the same about Hamas and the Muslim states that support it? Don't they also hold similar crazy beliefs?

Hi Yuyutsu,
I have a housemate who's a Christian, and he reads his bible often.
He also takes issue with the word 'religious'.

I guess I really don't understand the issue with 'religious' people being referred to as 'religious'.

When I was a kid growing up until I was 8 and my dad married my stepmum, I had no kind of 'religious' influence whatsoever, except for once or twice when my mum and I went to stay with my Aunty and my cousins for Christmas and we all went to the local church or parish at 'Taylors Arm' (place) for midnight mass; but other than that I wouldn't have really considered my Aunty religious, though she was a believer and remained so until she passed a few years back.

My stepmums family, well I certainly considered them religious.
The first thing my stepmum did after marrying my Dad was to take me to the local church and coerce me into 'giving my heart to the Lord'. They were big churchgoers, 'grace' before dinner, bible study, big family gatherings where they'd all sit around read scripture and pray.

To get to the point I saw them as being 'religious' from a starting point where I had never had any previous 'religious' people or 'religious' influence in my life.

So when I say 'religious' people, I'm talking about people (not just from one particular religion) with religious beliefs, but people who live every day according to the dictates of said religion, pray etc. as opposed to people who do not believe or practice any kind of religious activities at all.

I say 'religious' because that's exactly how I saw it from being a kid with no religious influence whatsoever to then later having it imposed upon me.
I don't know how my view of it is to be considered irrelevant or wrong, and why some believers take issue with the word 'religious'.

Sorry I didn't reply to your earlier comment a few days back.
I had a busy few days and didn't get time and many comments were added before I returned.

[Cont.]
- And FYI, I WOULD also consider adherents to other religions as 'religious', in the same way I consider Christians 'religious'.

It's basically just a generic term (to me) to denote any person who adheres to or practices a 'religious' belief system.

Why is that considered by 'religious' people to be wrong?
I just don't understand, sorry.

Some believe that followers of Christ Jesus should just surrender their lives to bullies and Dictators. I would like to believe that, Theywill not learn and continue to believe "Might Is Right."
So, there is a position where justice must be served. There is a difference between murder and its penalty.

Compare, Jesus, Stephen a Paul wept for their treatment by their Jewish brothers and asked they be forgiven.
1 JOHN 3: 11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. -15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

1john 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Koran encourages Hate of Jews as did the Roman Catholic Church to which Hitler belonged.
ttp://jcpa.org/article/verses-and-reality-what-the-koran-really-says-about-jews/
http://forward.com/opinion/564190/hamas-charter-truth/

Josephus,

An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.
(Gandhi).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Christianity

I always took a more simple view of things.
Many Christians seemed to have this 'turn the other cheek' mentality;
(although my father and stepmum didn't mind regularly implying my attitude and the music I listened to in my early teens was 'a work of the devil')
Pretty much anything that didn't fit with their religious views was frowned upon and criticised sooner or later.

I guess this is a part of the reason why I eventually became more 'ethical' in my world view, rather than 'religious'.

But going back to the simpler view of things...

I argued that IF (remember I'm agnostic) man is God's creation, and someone wishes to do 'Gods creation' harm, then they have every right to defend themselves 'Gods creation', and other 'so-called' religious people should too, not just 'turn the other cheek'.

I also argued that Christians only see people as being 'believers' or 'unbelievers', and that I argued for a third 'I don't know' category.
And that a person in this category, well they are completely different than either the 'believers' and the 'unbelievers' and for all intense purposes they may as well be in the same category as compared to the 'I don't know' category, because both the believers and the unbelievers claim to 'know' where as the agnostic freely admits 'they don't know'.
Then you have the 'thou shalt not bear false witness' thing, which sort of leaves me no alternative except to sit on the fence.

Regards Catholicism and Jewry...
I think up until about 60 years ago the Catholic church did not recognise Israel or the Jews, because they did not recognise Jesus.
I cant remember all the facts, but it was something like that.

Dear Critic,

There has been so much confusion and misunderstanding about religion, that I am not surprised that your friend is not comfortable being called "religious".

The term 'religion' did not spring out of nowhere: it has a definite, positive and almost objective meaning, yet instead people are ignorant and confused, which ends up in often calling the irreligious religious and the religious irreligious.

So for example, reading the Bible and attending church do not automatically imply that one is religious; and being agnostic does not automatically imply that one is not religious.

In the West, atheism is commonly confused to be an antonym of religion.
Not so in the East:
The closest term to 'atheist' in Hinduism is 'naastika', but they are not quite the same.
This does not refer to belief in God's existence or otherwise: a naastika is someone who does not accept the authority of the Vedas.
This also includes Buddhists and Jains, Jews, Christians and Muslims.
- And it does not mean that the above are necessarily irreligious.

So while in Western terms I could be considered an atheist, just because [though I love God] I consider God's existence impossible, in Hindu terms I am not a naastika.

Sorry to hear how you, like many others, had to imbibe that confusion as an innocent child.
You could possibly be at least as religious as your friend and your stepmum's family!

Compare: is this Love your unbelieving Neighbour?

Koran chapter 9:7. How can there be a treaty with the polytheists on the part of God and His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? As long as they are upright with you, be upright with them. God loves the pious.

8. How? Whenever they overcome you, they respect neither kinship nor treaty with you. They satisfy you with lip service, but their hearts refuse, and most of them are immoral.

9. They traded away God's revelations for a cheap price, so they barred others from His path. How evil is what they did.

10. Towards a believer they respect neither kinship nor treaty. These are the transgressors.

11. But if they repent, and perform the prayers, and give the obligatory charity, then they are your brethren in faith. We detail the revelations for a people who know.

12. But if they violate their oaths after their pledge, and attack your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief—they have no faith—so that they may desist.

13. Will you not fight a people who violated their oaths, and planned to exile the Messenger, and initiated hostilities against you? Do you fear them? It is God you should fear, if you are believers.

14. Fight them. God will punish them at your hands, and humiliate them, and help you against them, and heal the hearts of a believing people.

15. And He will remove the anger of their hearts. God redeems whomever He wills. God is Knowledgeable and Wise.

16. Or do you think that you will be left alone, without God identifying which of you will strive, and take no supporters apart from God, His Messenger, and the believers? God is well Aware of what you do.

It's OK for Palestinian mobs in Australia to support Hamas terrorists and chant 'f..k the Jews' and 'gas the Jews', but it is "shocking" for "fundamentalist Christian" to support Israelis.

What is a fundamentalist Christian by the way?

And what has the influence of these fcs on the US Republican party got to do with Israel or anything at all? Nothing. Just another brainstorm from Nathan, who seems to be a very naive young man, surprised at the idea that anyone at all is entitled to support anyone or anything they chose to support, including Palestinian mobs in Australia supporting terrorists where it is supposed to be illegal to do so.

I, for instance, am on the side of Israel, and hope that they stop pussyfooting around and do to Gaza what Hamas and Iran want to do to Israel. I also support what mhaze, the author of the only sensible post here before mine, says about this half-arsed, juvenile thread.

In Canberra a Palestinian teenager is called a terrorist.
In Melbourne a Muslim man picks up the phone to face
a torrent of abuse. In Adelaide a man puts up a sign saying
"Death to Israel" in his yard.

As the war with Israel and Hamas escalates and the death toll
rises Australian communities are facing echoes of tensions
from across the globe. There have been death-threats, abuse
hurled in the streets, and assaults, leaving Australian and
Jewish communities nervous and distressed.

Both the Islamic and Jewish communities have spoken of
terrifying surges in reports as ASIO warns of "spontaneous
violence" in Australia.

We really don't need to add to it on this forum.

That's a good sentiment Foxy. Perhaps you could tell me how this fellow's motivation differs from that of Brevic or Tarrant? The only difference I can see is that the terrorist was praised by his mum and dad for his murders. Maybe that makes it okay if it's a family thing?

Fester,

I don't know what you're talking about.

Perhaps your post was not meant for me?

Maybe it gets filtered on the news sites you visit Foxy?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12661911/Israel-release-unedited-bodycam-footage-Hamas-murders-prove-magnitude-atrocities-committed-claims-beheaded-babies-sparked-Holocaust-denial-like-phenomenon.html

Fester,

Why would you say that? My research takes me to
a wide variety of sites. And I have tried to
present both sides of this horrid conflict.
Which was why I could not understand the reason
behind your directing a post such as you did to me
that made no sense.

Anyway, now that I know what you were trying to
justify - I will attempt to respond politely.

BTW: If you want people to be able to read your links
drop the "s" .

CBS News has told us that the Israeli Defence Force had
compiled awful images and recordings from the body
cameras, victims cellphones,
and other sources to share them with the world as part
of their country's "narrative battle."

Lt. Col. Richard Hecht explained that as international
criticism of Israel mounts over civilian casualties in
Israel's military campaign in Gaza : "We understand that
there's a narrative battle here and we have to show the
world what is happening here."

CBS says that not all of the material could be verified
independently by the news media.

When it was pointed out to Hecht that many people felt
sympathy for Israelis who had suffered in the Oct 7th
attacks - but that they also felt sympathy for
Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

Hecht replied:

"So do we. But this is a very complex situation, and we
will make sure Hamas is eradicated," he said.

Of course this is a heart-wrenching conflict. And I think
that we all would like to see it end. Again, I shall
paraphrase Golda Meir:

" There will only be peace when BOTH sides love their
children more than they hate each other."

Miriam Margolyes wrote:

" I believe that people have to face up to the
moral implications of their actions, and not sit
on the fence, and I've made my choice. I don't sit
on the fence. I don't want to be somebody who says:
"My country right or wrong." That doesn't work for me.
I'm on the side of humanity. If I see a wrong I feel
I must do my best to right it."

"It would be much easier not to speak out. My support
for Palestine has brought me great heartache. But I can
only speak about what I have seen and experienced.
I can't accept that something wrong is being done in my
name. Truth is not hard to see - if you open your
eyes."

Here is a tape of the fellow gloating to his parents about the ten Jews that he just murdered. His parents congratulate him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhl9JFiw6sU

Did Brevic ring his mum and get congratulated when he murdered a stack of people? Likewise Tarrant? Both of those guys used a heap of nonsense for justification for what they did. I see them all as adherents to the creed of them and us.

Hi Yuyutsu,
Thanks for your response and for taking the time to share a little bit of info about Hinduism.
Unfortunately, I have to admit that I am still a little confused about the issue of 'religious' people
(no offense intended, is 'believers' a better term?)
- taking issue with being referred to as 'religious'.
I'll try to talk to my housemate when I can find a good time to bring it up and see what he has to say.

Tensions seem to be rising lately
Both inside and outside the forum.
Might be a good time for us to find something else to think and talk about.

- Here are some articles you all may have missed

Ukrainian spies with deep ties to CIA wage shadow war against Russia
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/
- This article details US direct involvement in the war against Russia
And that the Ukrainian SBU has been actively assassinating Russians, the article explains how they killed Daria Dugin.

This is not the State Department I know. That’s why I left my job.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/23/state-department-quit-israel-arms/
- This article talks about increased orders for weapons to Israel that are not for defense.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan claims Hamas are not terrorists but a 'liberation group' as he cancels his visit to Israel
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12672999/Turkish-President-Tayyip-Erdogan-claims-Hamas-not-terrorists-liberation-group-cancels-visit-Israel.html
- Increased tensions between United States and NATO member Turkiye

'I am a Zionist': How Joe Biden's lifelong bond with Israel shapes war policy
http://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/

Labour has betrayed British Muslims over Gaza – that’s why I resigned from the party
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/24/labour-gaza-british-muslims-starmer-betray

- I found the above two stories interesting, because the progressives usually fall on the side of the Palestinians. I noticed that Albo claimed solidarity with Israel during his state visit to the Whitehouse, but that seemed to conflict with Penny Wong's statements about the conflict.

It's funny how I have no real solid support for either the left or the right.

Depending on the topic;
Sometimes my opinions are more closely aligned with the Conservative side of things;
(Often I feel that One Nation is the only party with a sensible policy.)
Sometimes (but less often) my opinions are more closely aligned with the left;

And sometimes I go my own way and support neither,
- If both parties are bi-partisan and hold a position on a particular issue I don't support.

Do any of you think that's strange?
Do many people support their parties stance on all issues?
Do people often switch sides in their voting or generally stick with their preferred side?
Is it ok to have my own ideas and opinions on things?
Is it good to not be constrained by loyalty to any particular group?
Is it ok to be an individual in 2023?

Hi AC,

Tensions are rising, not for me, with a trip starting this Sunday to Rarotonga for a traditional Cook Island wedding between one of our favourite nieces, a Maori girl, they're all our favourites, and a "Cookie" man, a real nice fella. A stop over in Sydney for a few days first, a catch up with family there, then its Rarotonga here we come. Heaps from Aussie and Aotearoa, making the journey, along with a host of locals. When the Cookies stage a wedding they really go all out, I do believe 8 bridesmaids and 8 groomsmen, as well as 4 children and 2 old ladies (the wife is one for the bride, has to speak on her behalf to the groom), family members thrown in, plus bride and groom all in the wedding party. Promised an "On the beach" seafood feast, suckling pig etc etc Hula girls and boys dancing, band of locals, drums ukus and all that, all done island luau style. Don't know what's the local drink, but the word is pick up as much duty free as allowed, "Absolute Vodka" is what I'm told we'll be getting. Should be a few sore heads the next day. The happy couple are honeymooning in NZ. Been to one island wedding in Sydney and that was really something special.

Hi Paul,
I think you're all going to have a really great time catching up with friends and family.
The seafood feast on the beach with suckling pork sounds really nice.
Are you going to be doing some cooking?

...Maybe I need to think about a holiday,
The worlds getting a bit too hectic and serious lately.

This whole mess has been going on since the foundation of Islam.
One of the first warlike action of the Islamists was an attack on a
Jewish village where Muhammad led the attack on the Quraysh and was
assured by Allah of victory.
Muhammad attacked a Jewish village with much savagery.
That villages name is now used as a curse on all Jews.
It was from here that the tradition of killing Islams enemies began.
Later the Islamic armies surged out of Arabia and applied the same
principle. They captured Jerusalem and occupied the area we call
Israel so that us why they believe Palistinian Arabs are the rightful
owners of the land.
Just because someone else captured it back from them
does not mean it is not their land.
Right from the beginning Islam has had a hatred of Jews and has caused
all this trouble for the rest of us.
It used to go on without affecting us very much but it has now got to
the point where the rest of us will have to do something about it.

So don't think that the UN or anyone can stop the principle that all
Jews MUST be killed or submit to Islam. It has been going on since
the 6th century.

Dear Critic,

«(no offense intended, is 'believers' a better term?)»

No. That term is one of the factors that confuse the understanding of religion.

Yes, belief, when correctly applied, can be used as a religious method.
But when applied incorrectly or blindly, it can even create an obstacle on the path of religion.
And belief is not strictly a requisite for religion.
"Faith" is more appropriate for supporting religion than "belief",
but even "Faith" is not an accurate term.

Hinduism has the concept of 'Shraddha' (not to be confused with the ritual for the deceased under the same name), which is commonly translated as "Faith", but is much more than that - http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_faith.asp

The following paragraph from the above reference answers your question:
"Some beliefs are good and help you, but some can be problematic and a major source of afflictions and conflicts, especially if they are caused by the impurities of your mind such as egoism, evil thoughts and intentions, attachments, ignorance and delusion. One must use commonsense in matters of faith and act reasonably and moderately, avoiding the extremes or causing harm or disturbance to others."

Dear Critic,

«It's funny how I have no real solid support for either the left or the right.»

I think it's funny, yet sad, when people stick to either.
They seem to behave like football fans, they are for their team through thick and thin, right or wrong, often because that passes in the family. It makes "democracy" laughable.

«And sometimes I go my own way and support neither,
- If both parties are bi-partisan and hold a position on a particular issue I don't support.»

For me this is the rule, not the exception.

«Do any of you think that's strange?»

I think that's healthy and mature.

«Do many people support their parties stance on all issues?»

I don't have "my" party to begin with.

«Do people often switch sides in their voting or generally stick with their preferred side?»

Come elections, I read the policies of all parties, big or small, give each a score accordingly (from -10 to +10), then order the list and mark my preferences accordingly.

«Is it ok to have my own ideas and opinions on things?»

Not just OK, it is a virtue as well as your duty to use your gifts if you have them.

«Is it good to not be constrained by loyalty to any particular group?»

Of course. When one is constrained by some misplaced loyalty to political parties, they are being disloyal to the ordinary folks they live among.

«Is it ok to be an individual in 2023?»

You ARE an individual at all times.
This cannot be changed even if you try to suppress it.
And it is your duty to express this individuality of yours.

Hi AC,

"Do any of you think that's strange? "No, not in the slightest, you're a thinker on all issues and draw your own conclusions, that's good thinking.

I'v been a member of the Greens for over 20 years, ALP before that, do I support every policy, No, eg. I thought the Greens were wrong on opposing Labor's housing policy, I was reassured there would be a satisfactory outcome, from those who actually had a vote on the matter. I'm even a little pro atomic energy given the right undertakings at the time. Do I support the bipolar agreement on AUKUS crap, Hell No! Do I agree with Labor's new approach to China, Yes. I can't say anything about the Noalition and Dutton, they are bereft of policy in all areas, excluding where they agree with Labor. The Greens actually have policy and its articulated and clearly defined, not agreed with by all, that's for sure. The Noalition and their crap, "we'll release policy before the next execution" Not good enough!

I'm very concerned about Old Joe Biden, if he doesn't get his mug of warm coco every night he might keel over for good. I'm even more concerned about The Dangerous Doctor Donald stepping into Old Joe's place, with Horny Star or whatever her name is in the Whitehouse cot. At least Donald's entertaining, dangerous, but entertaining never the less.

Fester,

I don't understand what the point is that you're trying to make.

Are you saying that the deranged and horrific actions of some
seriously mentally disturbed people justifies the actions of
the Israelis in Gaza

Foxy, I do not know where you live, but imagine if a hundred lunatics with high powered rifles entered your area and murdered 1,400 civilians and injured 6,000 0thers all unarmed women and children and took captive 212 young children and girls. Would you be sitting on the fence, telling the Police not to track them down because others might be killed in the cross fire?

Josephus,

UNICEF tells us that the staggering rates of deaths and
injuries of children in Gaza " is a growing stain on our
collective conscience."

And United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres
has called for a cease fire in the Israel-Hamas was
as the Israeli military supported by US money and
military armaments continues its bombardment of Gaza.

This must be stopped before more innocents die.
Maximum pressure must be applied for a
cease-fire.

OK Foxy, a cease fire, then what ?
You might get some hostages released, but they are valuable chess pieces.
Just argue about it until everyone gets bored and wait till the next time ?
Surely, even you can see that is not an option ?

So Bezza - let me get this right.

Are you saying that things should continue as they are?

Can they really bomb their way to peace?

Middle East Studies experts at ANU and Sydney University
tell us that this is not a military issue but a historical
one.
That you can't solve this conflict with weapons - only
dialogue.

That if Israel did wipe out Hamas - another
movement would take its place.

We're told that the West is responsible morally and ethically
for this conflict. And, it needs to seriously solve the
problem through diplomatic and political dialogue to create a
balance of power between the two sides and ensure BOTH sides compromise.

I'm no expert. But what they're saying makes sense. The United
States needs to apply maximum pressure - but which
leader is going to do it? Not much hope there.

Anyway, I'm done arguing. All I can do is pray and hope that
maybe this will happen in my lifetime while I can still
travel. I'd love to visit the region - and spend time in
those historic holy places. It's been a wish of mine for a long
time.

Dear Foxy,

«Middle East Studies experts at ANU and Sydney University
tell us that this is not a military issue but a historical one.
That you can't solve this conflict with weapons- only dialogue.»

Then let us accept what these respected professors say, at face value: that this conflict, which already lasted a century or so, will not be solved and might continue for another century.

Fine, that being the case, lets move on and get on with life.

Babies were born into that conflict, some were killed, some maimed, but most survived, had their own families, grew old and then passed away: the conflict was always in their background, they knew not a day without it, but they still had a life.

«Can they really bomb their way to peace?»

Why, who ever claimed so?

The Israeli army now has an important job to do, it received a list of objectives, but peace was never one of them, so why introduce that red herring?

Yes, you can find inner peace, unshakable, but then you must work for it, make efforts, others cannot do that for you.

If you really think that my family in Israel are going to give up the fight and allow themselves to be slaughtered just because some lady in Australia, named Foxy, wants them to be in peace, then you must be dreaming.

Sweet dreams then and here is a bedtime story for you:
A young Hamas militant lad broke into a house in a kibbutz in the early hours of the morning while the residents were still sleeping. He found there a beautiful teenager girl in her bed, he beat her, laid her face down on the floor, tore up her pajamas, raped her, shot her in the head, took her phone and called his parents: "Mom, Dad, guess what - today I killed 10 Jews", so the parents replied "Good boy, we are proud of you". Happy End.

This story and similar others are not from the Grimm Brothers or the Marquis De Sade: they recently happened for real. Do sleep well.

Yuyutsu,

Please don't address any more posts to me.
I have no wish to either argue or interact
with you.

Dear Foxy,

«I have no wish to either argue or interact
with you.»

Neither did my family wish to either argue or interact with the Hamas.

Yuyutsu, Thank you! Foxy is well meaning but deluded. She has never been placed in a position trying to reason with someone who breaks into her bedroom to rape and murder her because the Koran commits them to kill.

Dear Josephus,

Thank you for the support, but I don't believe that Hamas is truly motivated by the Koran, I think that they are just sadistic bastards who use it as an excuse.

There are many other Muslims, especially Sufis and Ahmadeians who take the same Koran very seriously, but read it differently.

I support you as well Yuyutsu. According to Foxy we are to blame for the depravity of those terrorists, but would she also tell the victims of of Brevic and Tarrant that they were to blame for the murders they suffered? When you make hatred your way of life you own your choice. Here is some more depravity that Foxy thinks me responsible for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XayGlzx7jJo

I think that Foxy needs to envision Hamas as a whole community of Brevics and Tarrants, except more depraved. Hatred has no excuses.

Thanks Yuyutsu and Paul for your comments earlier in the day...

"If you really think that my family in Israel are going to give up the fight and allow themselves to be slaughtered just because some lady in Australia, named Foxy, wants them to be in peace, then you must be dreaming."

I absolutely support your family's right to defend themselves Yuyutsu, but for me, Israels right to defend itself doesn't include leveling apartment buildings full of women and kids, though I understand the situation is complicated, especially with hostages.

(Though I don't necessarily consider members of the IDF hostages, there may be a legitimate argument that they are POW's)

I can't help thinking that both sides were playing each other, part of me thinks that Israel allowed the initial attack to happen, thinking they could use it as an excuse come down hard on Hamas.

On the other side though, I can't help thinking that Hamas planned this attack, and part of that plan was knowing full well what the response would be, that Israel would level the place (for all the Muslim world to see in full detail on Al Jazeera) and send ground forces into Gaza.

- I'm thinking that this is EXACTLY what Hamas planned for.

Hamas made the first move, knowing full well that Israel would react in a certain way, and that's part of their plan, knowing what Israels reaction would be.

Whether that's a plan to annihilate those ground forces, or to pull other groups into the mix like Hezbollah and create a wider conflict in the region I'm not entirely sure.

[Cont]
One thing is for sure though.
Netanyahu is stuck between a rock and a hard place...
He has to try to free the hostages, he can't do nothing.
(Not that I like the man or his political stance, I oppose it)

The footage of the carnage going on in Gaza has riled up Muslims everywhere, and I have my criticisms of Israel and the Jewish religion, but set that aside and I am actually worried that there will end up being knife attacks on Jews and synagogues, and any gains Jews have made in lowering 'antisemitism', (can't believe I said that) well that's all been thrown away.

This attack on Gaza has made Jews the whole world over a lot less safe.
If I was in Israel, I'd be thinking of taking a 6 month holiday abroad, I have no idea how this will all end.
I hope your family members stay safe during these crazy times.

Barack Obama wrote an article a few days back.
I think it may demonstrate that there are people of influence in the US who might be getting nervous that the whole thing could blow up, and turn out badly for both Israel and the US.

Thoughts on Israel and Gaza
http://barackobama.medium.com/my-statement-on-israel-and-gaza-a6c397f09a30

Scrape away the emotive clap trap from the likes of Josephus; "She (Foxy) has never been placed in a position trying to reason with someone who breaks into her bedroom to rape and murder her because the Koran commits them to kill" And what's exposed is Josephus, Fester, Yuyutsu and others here supporting the crime of 'State Sanctioned Murder', which is being perpetrated by the state of Israel, in the form of "Collective Punishment" of innocent Palestinians, being punishment for the murderous acts of others... namely Hamas criminals. There are a few of us on this forum with enough humanity, Foxy is one such person, who will not accept murder of the innocent as retribution for the crimes of the guilty. To do so is stepping on very dangerous ground. You must then believe the actions of the Al-Qaeda terrorists in murdering almost 3,000 innocent people on 11th September 2001 was a justifiable act of retaliation for the murderous acts committed by Americans against innocent Arabs in Middle Eastern wars.

Josephus, Fester and Yuyutsu, what is your reasoning and justification for accepting "Collective Punishment" of innocent Palestinians by the Israeli?

Foxy, I think something has to be done, but what ?
There are steps that have to be made to get to a better situation.
Bombing and invading are needed to remove this now threat.
They can remove one of the barriers.
I agree with ivory tower residents that it is historical.
It started in the 6th century when the Islamic Arab armies invaded
Mesopotamia including Jerusalem and killed Jews because the Koran hates Jews.
You think it can be solved with dialogue ?
I am not sure it is solvable at all.
If Hamas is defeated another movement would take its place.
There are several already lined up.
No the west is not responsible in any way. It started in the 6th
century and is required by the Koran. Muhomammad hated the Jews and
so he wrote that hatred into the Koran.
The US, the UN and everyone else has no hope of fixing this.
There is only one way it could be ended if the mothers start telling their children that the Jews are not evil people but are just like us.
Because of Islams attitude to women that could be very risky.

Well Foxy I wish you luck in your wish to visit that area but I will not be joining you.

One additional thought;
Where will Albo's 600,000 migrants this year come from ?

What could possibly go wrong ?

These "Islamic" experts are an unknown quantity, the Koran says this, the Koran says that, I doubt you have any such knowledge at all, but rather parrot the words of haters like yourself. I've never read a word of the Koran, and you are probably the same, but project yourself as an "expert" on the subject. I don't doubt the Koran is very much like the Bible, it will say whatever you want it to say, and it will justify whatever action you want it to justify.

Now for the here and now, to say; "Bombing and invading are needed to remove this now threat." You would happily kill thousands of innocent people, simply because they may pose a future threat to the likes of YOU! I realise bigots and haters can say these things from the safety of their comfy Australia, or wherever you are, I'm sure like others of your ilk, you are not sitting in Gaza, but you're no better that those who would kill innocent Jews for their own perverted reasons.

Hi Paul,

What I objected to was Foxy saying:

"We're told that the West is responsible morally and ethically
for this conflict."

What I saw on October 7 was a society engendering hatred toward Jews. Those terrorists who crossed the border and committed mass murder were more depraved than Brevic and Tarrant. What happened in those residential areas adjoining Gaza was a result of hatred, just as the massacres in Christchurch and Norway were a result of hatred. Watching protesters chanting "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" carries the same sentiment as "gas the Jews".

The people of Gaza need to lose their hatred Paul.

One aspect that I find interesting is that Ukrainian SBU has been conducting assassinations on non-combatants for nearly a decade and they were trained by and work closely with the CIA and no-one seemed to care about that.

Now we have a completely different but in some ways similar attack upon non-combatants by a people who are designated terrorists by the US, and who are not supported or allied / partnered with the US.

If assassinating non-combatants in relation to a situation that started when the US wanted to expand NATO to Russian borders and included overthrowing the democratically elected leader and installing a puppet ruler and waging a war on it's own citizens that opposed it...

Then is it not hypocritical when a people who've been under occupation themselves and had their own land systematically taken rise up and do the same to their occupiers non-combatants civilian population?

Think about it.

Hi Fester,

No one should hate another, I agree with the Bible in; "love thy neighbour as thyself". That does not mean justice is not fair and reasonable, when applied in an appropriate way to the guilty. You say; "The people of Gaza need to lose their "hatred", however is that achieved by Israel killing indiscriminately.... innocent people, including the unborn, children, women old people? If the test for retribution is perceived "hatred" then of the 2.3 million Palestinians living in Gaza, how many are haters, and how many are not? When you give me a number, and show me how to identify the "haters" then so be it, BTW How many Israelis hate Palestinians? Do you not see this does nothing more than perpetuate the vicious cycle of hate, and counter hate, killing and counter killing.

What is your solution to this very complex problem? The extermination of 2.3 million Palestinians, to begin with. Hitler thought he had a "final solution" to the Jewish problem, does Israel have a similar solution to the Palestinian problem?

Jonah Shepp writing for New York Magazine makes some very
rational arguments.

He says - Don't blame Gazans for Hamas. The terrorist
group has never been popular among the people it rules.
If Israel was to destroy Hamas for good (hardly likely)
it would be doing the Gazans a favour.

However the Israeli governments thirst for revenge is not
coupled with any plan for what comes after.

It appears that Israel is determined to make Gaza totally
unliveable - and drive the Palestinians out of the territory.
Because there are no answers as to - Who will rebuild Gaza.
Who will govern it and how will it avoid falling into an
even greater humanitarian catastrophe?

It's easy of course, not to think about any of this if your
starting point is that the Gazans had it coming.

Shepp argues that if the war leads to both the right-wing
Netanyahu Coalition and Hamas losing popular legitimicy
and exiting the scene, it would be a silver lining to a
very dark cloud since neither Israelis not Palestinians
deserve the mediocre leadership they've been saddled
with.

But at least the Israelis have some power to change that if
they want to, the people of Gaza do not.

"In Canberra a Palestinian teenager is called a terrorist.
In Melbourne a Muslim man picks up the phone to face
a torrent of abuse. In Adelaide a man puts up a sign saying
"Death to Israel" in his yard."

Isn't multiculturalism wonderful?

" The terrorist group has never been popular among the people it rules."

So they keep telling us....and never supplying any evidence for it. Just assertion. Try this poll...its not perfect by any means but gives a hint at how popular Hamas really is...

http://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

But even those making the claim about Hamas' alleged unpopularity find it hard to believe. Foxy tells us "That if Israel did wipe out Hamas - another movement would take its place."

But, but, but....if Hamas is unpopular as alleged, why would a neo-Hamas arise from the people who, we are told, hate its policies?

They probably won't understand the lack of logic here, but you can't simultaneously argue that Gazans hate Hamas AND that, if Hamas is destroyed, they will create a new Hamas-style government.

Israel can and, given the chance, will fight their way to peace, or what passes for peace in the Arab world.

Israel's land, air, and sea blockade has trapped more
than 2 million people inside the Gaza strip since 2007.

A United Nations report on the economic development of
the occupied Palestinian territory released recently (2022)
said that conditions in the enclave had been "stifled" by
the many years of restrictions before Oct. 7th.

UNICEF ALSO says "They die slowly every single day. Child
casualties in Gaza is a "stain on our conscience."

Gaza has experienced extensive damage under the prolonged
restrictions and closures and frequent military operations.
This has stifled the economy and decimated infrastructure.

Ending the dreadful restrictions and closures and calling
on Israel and all parties to bear their responsibility
under international law - IS a must.

No part of Gaza's society or economy has been left untouched.
50% of Gaza's population is unemployed and more than half
live in dire poverty.

Although some workers in Gaza have been allowed access to
the job market in Israel the number of permits issued
accounts only for about 1% of employed workers and is too
small to counter poverty.

The border closures and repeated military operations have
set in motion a vicious circle of economic and institutional
collapse that has rendered Gaza a case of "development in
reverse," the UN report said.

This impact is not confined to the short term. Indirect and
long term effects will reverberate through future generations
is what the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development
(UNCTAD) report summed up.

Which should make sense to any rational person
why if Hamas is destroyed a new movement could
take its place.

Hi Paul,

Hatred is an individual choice. I find people saying "Oh, but it's all so complicated." are just making excuses for people who choose to hate. The problem, as AC alluded to, is that the Devil is always whispering in your ear, telling you of the malevolent intentions of the other guy. We saw that with the Voice. Gaza shows how bad hatred can make things. Is this the sort of telly they show their kids in Israel?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kill-all-jews-urges-hamas-tv-host/

Finger-pointing and playing the blame game
does not produce anything productive.
Neither does the excuse - "We have a right
to defend ourselves."

Not when you have provoked the attacks
by breaking international laws and imposing
land, air, and sea blockades. Deprived people of food,
water, electricity, as well as imposed prolonged
restrictions and closures and had frequent
military operations which stifled a people's
economy and decimated their infrastructure.
Causing them to live in poverty. And the
Land grabs and settlement expansions didn't
help either.

This is not about hatred. It's about changing
behaviour. Both Israel and all parties need to
bear their responsibilities under international
law. This impact of what's currently happening
will not be confined to the short term.

It will have indirect and long term effects that'
will as we're told reverberate through future
generations.

Fester,

"WE CAN'T BOMB OUR WAY TO PEACE!"

Foxy,

When you stop getting your information from filtered sources like the antisemitic ABC or your equally antisemitic cult party, you might get some inkling of the reality confronting Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXcQ892cKso

Fester,

My information comes from a wide variety of sources.
American, European, Us and from people who have
travelled, worked, and some still live in the region.
My parents taught me to always question the narrative.
This is what I've tried to do. I have also attempted
to maintain a balance and try not to take sides.
But the data coming through is horrible and it
is becoming heart-breaking.

I still feel though that blaming the blame game is not
going to see this tragedy end. Assigning blame now
needs to stop and attempts should be made to try to
resolve the situation to the satisfaction of both sides.

Hi mhaze,
So they keep telling us....and never supplying any evidence for it. Just assertion. Try this poll...its not perfect by any means but gives a hint at how popular Hamas really is...

Yeah I'd believe that.
I argued that there would be reasons for it too over on Foxy's thread
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=10249&page=0#353826

- It's really not rocket science, maybe more of a simple 'cause and effect'

Hi Fester,
I've actually seen videos of Israeli kids saying 'all the Arabs will one day be our slaves'.
I think the poisoned animosity-infused education exists on both sides but maybe a little more violent oriented on the Palestine side, though that would be a guess.
- Those kids say "I want to be a martyr when I grow up'

That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Israeli kids say
'I want to be a soldier in the IDF and kill the Arabs'.

Foxy, you got it wrong, the blockade, water ,electricity etc took
place AFTER the attack on Israel.
The fastest relief would be if Egypt opened the border to their
fellow moslem families and the UN could arrange assistance in that
part of Egypt. Israel would want to filter out the Hamas activists.
Then Israel and Hamas could sort it out.
For some reason, Egypt does not want the Gazans their next door
neighbours. I would have thought the Moslem Brotherhood would have
welcomed them. I wonder if we are seeing a split between Iran, Shia
and The Brotherhood Sunni at the base of it all.

Paul, no solutions I see. Well I do not blame you for that no one
else has got a solution either.
As far as the Koran is concerned I am no expert either but I can send
you a list of verses that may help.
When you compare the Bible, and I make no excuses there, you have
to remember that the old part is obsolete.
However the Koran is exactly as written, so they say, and to question
any part is blasphemy punishable by death.

Re fuel, a satellite photos shows a tank farm in the very south of
Gaza which I presume is where Israel says there is 500,000 barrels
in stock under control of Hamas.

Where will Albo's 600,000 migrants come from this year ?
What could possibly go wrong ?

Bezza, you are wrong. The Israeli blockade of the
occupied Gaza Strip has been in place since June
2007. Israel has controlled Gaza's air-space, and
land, and territorial waters as well as two of its
border crossings. The difference now being that
Israel has now put on a complete
siege on Gaza.

Yes Foxy you are right on that, I just read something about it.
However, what I think I was referring to was the blockade applied
after the 7th July, water, electricity, fuel food etc.

I have just read an article by a Frenchman about the situation in Europe.
I notice a number of European countries are looking for ways to expel
moslems back to their own countries.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20103/europe-civil-war

The author is another ivory tower dweller at the Sorbonne amongst others.
In view of the 7th oct chants at the Sydney opera house of
Gas the Jews the article really should be thought about by us all.
"GAS THE JEWS !" doesn't that cause a little spine chill ?

And for you others, it is only once small step from Jews to Kaffirs.

Of course it puts a chill down my spine.
Any kind of hatred does - no matter who it
comes from. There are extremists and
fundamentalists all over the globe and in
every neighbourhood. I saw the two Nazis
being filmed on the news last night after
being released from court. Scary stuff.
And this is Australia.

The middle-east conflict is very concerning.
And who knows what the end result will be?

A line needs to be drawn in the sand - and
we say - there must be a cease-fire. Enough
is enough! But I realize I am being naive.

Dear Paul,

«Yuyutsu, what is your reasoning and justification for accepting "Collective Punishment" of innocent Palestinians by the Israeli?»

I do not condone punishment, let alone collective punishment.

I do accept self-defense and sometimes it regrettably means that people who seem to be innocent are hurt as well.
Ultimately, no innocent person can ever be hurt: that is a universal truth, but explaining that would require a deeper metaphysical discussion which is probably outside this scope.

In any case, I condemn any action that is motivated by a desire to punish.

«Josephus, Fester, Yuyutsu and others here supporting the crime of 'State Sanctioned Murder', which is being perpetrated by the state of Israel, in the form of "Collective Punishment" of innocent Palestinians»

I do not support that, but I believe that Israel attempts to minimise civilian casualties wherever reasonably possible without more casualties of its own.

«Foxy is one such person, who will not accept murder of the innocent as retribution for the crimes of the guilty.»

I do not accept it either. Please add my name to this list and remove it from the other.

---

Dear Bezza,

«Muhomammad hated the Jews and so he wrote that hatred into the Koran.»

Muhammad, Peace-be-upon-him, did not write the Koran. The Koran could not have been written before the 790's, at least 160 years after his death and even then it kept changing for about another 200 years.
Muhammad, BTW, according to a new research, was a Christian, a military commander who led his troops to conquer Gaza, as well as an international merchant.
Islam gradually evolved from a Christian sect. Archaeologists found 8th-century coins with "Muhammad" on one side and a cross on the other.

---

Dear Foxy,

«Shepp argues that if the war leads to both the right-wing
Netanyahu Coalition and Hamas losing popular legitimicy
and exiting the scene»

Indeed, we see it happening before our eyes.
Netanyahu is now a goner, so say even members of his own party.
Once the war is over, Israel will have a very different coalition government.

Yuyustu, I do not doubt that what you say about Muhommad might be right.
I have also read that he never existed.
I also go not believe that Gabriel delivered the Koran to Mohommad from Allah.
Gawd, must be careful here they will come and shoot me.
However it does not matter a fig what we all think, it is what "they"
think that matters.
I wonder what sort of security is on this website ?
Can they hack into it, or we could all be in a lot of trouble.
Could we be arrested for hate crimes ? In the UK YES !
Where are Albo's 600,000 migrants coming from this year ?
What could possibly go wrong ?

Dear Bezza,

«Could we be arrested for hate crimes ?»

For hate crimes one has to hate. I don't.
I also don't believe that anyone can be arrested in Australia or the UK for citing scientific papers.

Whether Muhammad existed or otherwise, there are some Muslim people who use Islam for their betterment, who select the nice verses from the Koran to improve their character and come closer to God - and turn a blind eye to the rest. We obviously know also of other Muslims, as well as Christians and Jews, who seek evil and are adepts in choosing specific scriptural passages that advance their sinister desires.

I believe that Muslims can be good for Australia because when the time comes, they will fight to defend Australia from China like no Westerner would - because they know well what happened to the Uighurs and are determined not to end up like them!

The US and Israel seem to be at war with the whole world.

The US is at war with the world, trying to keep together it's crumbling empire.
The world is moving towards a multipolar world and the US wants to cling to its unipolar world, which many nations reject.

The vote at the UN General Assembly on Friday relating to a ceasefire and humanitarian pause to the Israel / Palestinian conflict saw 120 nations in support, 14 against and 45 abstentions.

UN General Assembly adopts Gaza resolution calling for immediate and sustained ‘humanitarian truce’
http://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847

Israels response: "Today is a day that will go down in infamy. We have all witnessed that the UN no longer holds even one ounce of legitimacy or relevance." said Israel's permanent representative to the UN.
http://twitter.com/giladerdan1/status/1718024766106309061

... Meanwhile, there are a million Muslims marching in London
http://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1718250582698328408
http://twitter.com/claudeelkhal/status/1718235491571535946

There are huge protests going on everywhere right now.
Paris, United States, Turkey, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, India, Pakistan, Iran
- Just about everywhere you can think of, but it's not on TV.

A million on the march in London !
It only needs one charismatic orator to fire them up.
Aside from the usual "Demos for Anything" crowd the majority seem to
be Arabs. What have we wrought ?
If a "real" war broke out where would those "citizens" stand ?
Would they take up arms ? In the US there are plenty of arms.
Not so much here or UK, but armouries could be raided.
The security services are I hope taking note of all this.

Where are Albo's 600,000 immigrants this year coming from ?
What could possibly go wrong ?

Bezza,

According to the Department of Home Affairs the top
10 Country Profiles list for Australia is:

1) India.
2) People's Republic of China.
3) United Kingdom.
4) Philippines.
5) Nepal.
6) Vietnam.
7) New Zealand.
8) Hong Kong.
9) Pakistan.
10) South Africa.

There you go.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this thing turns into a huge war in the coming days.

The stated goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas, but this is not possible without annihilating Gaza, The US has not tried to reign Israel in, so that means Israel has US approval to kill children.

The US has assembled at least 73 ships in the Mediterranean, the largest naval force in over half a century.
- Should we believe this is for Gaza? Not likely.

We may even see NATO V's NATO.
- As Erdongan has come down in support of Hamas.

We have Russians flying Mig-31's with Kinzhals in the Black Sea and will support Iran and Syria if they are attacked.

We might even see a coming together of Sunni and Shia Muslims against Israel and the US.

America and even Israel have military bases everywhere.
I can see a long drawn out conflict which is not in either Israel or Americas interests, not even with the aim of defeating them, but constant smaller attacks using missiles and drones that never let up.

And if oil stops flowing out of the middle east, all western economies and their leaders will fall as time passes.

The US is the big tough bully, but he expends a lot of energy doing anything and can be worn down if done so slowly and carefully.

The Ukraine war has been Putin's trash compactor to de-militarise the West.
They are not prepared to fight long wars.
Time is their greatest weakness.

Now we might see Muslims enraged and on the march in all cities across the globe as well, including western ones.
The coming days could see things escalate significantly.

It may be that Israel and Americas solution to Gaza / Hamas is War on Iran
Netanyahu's been carrying on about it for 15 years
The US has been peed off with Russia ever since they ruined their plans to overthrow Syria.
Hold on to your seats folks.

Hi AC,

How would you compare the Hamas terrorists who went into Israel on October 7 with the likes of Brevic and Tarrant?

Fester,

For your information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

Thanks Foxy. I note that his depravity wasn't celebrated by Israelis like Palestinians did with October 7, nor did he excitedly ring his mum and dad and get responses like, "God be praised. Well done son. Come home safe.".

Now how do the Hamas terrorists conduct on 7 October compare with the depravity of Tarrant and Breivik?

Fester,

I'm not interested in comparing depravities.
Truth is not hard to see if you open your eyes.
What interests me is - trying to find solutions
to the conflict. Not add to it.

If you want to compare - you will find terrorist
groups and individuals on both sides.
Just do a Google search. Even Wikipedia covers this
subject.

Dear Critic,

«I wouldn't be at all surprised if this thing turns into a huge war in the coming days.»

Yes, it is all possible.
But not that likely.
In fact, I think that you so much expect the war to expand that you will be surprised if it does not.

«The stated goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas, but this is not possible without annihilating Gaza,»

Here you may indeed be surprised - I think it possible and I think it will happen.
It is very hard now on the people of Gaza, but I think that after the war, they (both those who survive and those who will die, just sadly excluding those who are badly maimed in this war) will be much happier than they have been in decades.

Under Hamas, Gazans cannot leave, death penalty for using any drug, 6 years imprisonment for getting pregnant out of wedlock, police refuse to assist women who are beaten by their husbands: http://video.vice.com/en_us/video/crime-and-punishment-in-the-gaza-strip/5762f259977db15c3994ccd4
This is an old clip - conditions have even worsened since.

Gazans deserve better - and now they will get better!

«The US has assembled at least 73 ships in the Mediterranean, the largest naval force in over half a century.
- Should we believe this is for Gaza? Not likely.»

Very true. The US is trying to deter others from joining.
I very much hope that their deterrence be successful.

«America and even Israel have military bases everywhere.»

True, Anthony Albanese and my mother in law rule Australia...

«The US has not tried to reign Israel in, so that means Israel has US approval to kill children.»

True, Israel has the approval - but not any such desire.
Sorry for this inconvenience, maybe you will just have to continue watching the killing of Ukrainian children instead.

Dodging the question Foxy. Mass murderers like Tarrant, Breivik and Goldstein are demonised for their depravity. Hamas terrorists are celebrated by Palestinians, and you think the problem lies with Israel.

If you look at the motivation of Breivik and Tarrant, you will see that they were motivated by the same xenophobic hatred as the Palestinians have toward the Jews. You expect the Israelis to negotiate with people who celebrate depraved violence against them and will not accept options for Jewish people in Israel other than leave or be killed. To say that the Israelis have to compromise with such hatred is the same as asking those hated by Tarrant and Breivik to compromise with the hatred directed at them.

You don't compromise with hatred Foxy.

All this talk of ceasefire would be nice.
It reminds me of the phrase "Turn the Other Cheek".
Is there anyone who thinks it is at all possible ?
All it would get is a harder slap on the other cheek !

For the children in Gaza just blame Egypt for not forcing open the gate.

Fester,

I'm not dodging the question. I have answered it
by pointing out to you that there are extremists
in every group - be they Jews or Palestinians.
Be they Hamas or right-wing Zionists. Blaming
and finger-pointing at just one-side does not
achieve anything productive to resolve the conflict.

Also - not all Palestinians support Hamas. Same as not
all Jews support right-wing Zionism.

Hi Bezza,
"For the children in Gaza just blame Egypt for not forcing open the gate."
- No, I blame the people dropping the bombs on them.

Hi Foxy,
If you want a watch something that covers a fair bit of important info try this:

Israel Has Gotten Away with Too Much for Too Long
http://www.youtube.com/live/SPwlPSEGVr0

US looks isolated after opposing UN resolution on Gaza truce
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/28/gaza-israel-truce-un-resolution-us

Praying for Armageddon is a documentary out now highlighting the role of U.S Politics and religion there (whatever terms you use) and the impacts these people and elements are having in the Middle East.

They are having a huge impact and it is real.

View the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75ehG6utzBM

Yes, there are a range of other playing factors, people, groups and impacts in the Middle East, but the impacts of what I have mentioned cannot be underestimated.

I was once bitten by a spider, that was also terrible in terms of the end results. I'm sure someone has been bitten by a spider in the Middle East and suffered terribly as a result, but it's not comparable.

Dear Nathan,

Professor Tor Hundloe explained things so well in his
book, "From Buddha to Bono," when he wrote:

"The vast majority of modern mainstream Christians, Jews,
and Muslims seek a better life on earth, rather than seeking
it in heaven. Even if they believe in heaven, they seek to
have a happy life on earth."

"Modern people with normal family and social relationships,
and an least partially rational view of how the world works
are not waiting for Armageddon, or a future coming of a
saviour."

"Nor are they waiting for anything else that exercises the
theological minds of fundamentalists."

"We need to keep in mind that the religiously-minded
modern person is not a "card-carrying" fundamentalist."

"The later are a tiny minority. Of whatever faith, a
psychologist would be likely to describe them to be of
unsound mind."

"Humanity cannot afford to have fundamentalists with their
fingers on the nuclear-war button."

"It is in this context of religious fatalism that we can
understand suicide bombers. They are acting rationally
according to their beliefs. So are the Christian "end-timers"
or evangelicals who so strongly support Israel's actions and
who would bring on Armageddon today if they could."

"They believe the end of time is near - there will be a great
battle - the battle of Armageddon in Israel - and the
Messiah will return to earth and govern for 1000 years and
all the world's Jews will be destroyed if they don't
convert to Christianity."

"Ironically, the Jews are needed to fulfil the Old Testament
prophecy, as they have to conquer all the so-called
"Biblical Lands" before Armageddon is possible."

"This helps to explain the unholy alliance between American
end-timers and Jewish fundamentalists.'

So much for the sad state of the world.

Fundamentalist Christians are not cheering on the end times, they are stating the obvious state of behavior of the nations and the natural consequences of man's rejection of the teachings of Christ Jesus.
1. Love the character of God the creator.
2. love one's Neighbour as oneself.

Followers of Christ do not create the current situation, it is created by the rejection of Christ and his life. It starts with repentance and forgiveness.

Netanyahu looks at things differently Josephus.

If Netanyahu is Orthodox both those principles are contained in the Hebrew Torah.

What is contained in a Holy Book and how it is
interpreted and followed are separate things. Its
one's actions and behaviour that matter.

Dear Josephus,

Netanyahu is neither orthodox (or even a believer of any kind) nor relevant.

I can't see why you and others keep discussing him here where it is clear that he is a goner. Even his own party members shun him now and Israelis now leave his party in droves. He is clearly responsible for the disaster that befell Israel. He is only kept in government for now as a figurehead, without any real authority, because formally removing him from office at this time would boost the enemy's morale.

So 44% of people voted in a terrorist party. Now they have a terrorist authoritarian theocracy with 150,000 missiles to fire at Israel. Recently attacked and brutally murdered 1400 Jewish civilians. Israel is now trying to eliminate the terrorist threat. So who is to blame for all of this? That's right, Jews, Christians and Americans. Makes perfect sense.

How about ramping up accountability on both sides?

Many Israeli Jews have made it clear that:

"We need to work towards a shared future where we do
not harm each other. We need to create a culture of
peace. Jewish supremacy will not achieve that."

The argument that the entire population of Gaza can be
held responsible for Hamas's actions is quickly discredited
when one looks at the facts.

The vast majority of Gazans do not support Hamas.
The US Foreign Affairs has made that clear in
its reports and surveys. However it doesn't take
much intelligence to see that -

Continued bombardment and violence will not bring the
future most people - both Israelis and Gazans
hope for any closer.

Instead of stamping out sympathy for terrorism past
Israeli crackdowns and restrictions only
made life more difficult for
ordinary Gazans and now Israel's military
campaign - will undoubtedly increase support
for Hamas.

If the current military campaign of Netanyahu and his
government's action in Gaza does not change, it will
further set back the cause o0f any long-term peace.

Israel needs to send out a different message - The enemy is
Hams - not the Palestinian people. That will require a
new, reasonable government in Israel.

Dear Foxy,

«Many Israeli Jews have made it clear that:

"We need to work towards a shared future where we do
not harm each other. We need to create a culture of
peace. Jewish supremacy will not achieve that."»

Definitely so.

But we are not there yet.

That is the second phase, which I look forward to - but the first phase is to finish Hamas.

Hamas is a heavily armed terrorist organisation avowed to destroying Israel. Whether people support it or not is immaterial. Hamas is in the Gaza strip and Israel has every right to remove it.

If Australia had a terrorist theocracy avowed to destroying one of its neighbours, regularly firing off missiles and killing civilians, I wonder how "But not all Australians support the regime." would go toward stopping a response to the attacks? And remember that Hamas is being supported by other nations and individuals, including Australian citizens, so what of their culpability?

"Hamas is a heavily armed terrorist organisation avowed to destroying Israel. Whether people support it or not is immaterial. Hamas is in the Gaza strip and Israel has every right to remove it."

Well that could be true, but what about this?
Could this be true also

Israel is an occupying power, and as such doesn't have a 'right' to self defense, and Hamas is the 'resistance' militant force for Palestinians, who can't even get UN troops to protect them because of America's UNSC veto.

Hi AC,

I'm sure that the likes of Breivik and Tarrant would find your reasoning of the conflict acceptable. I see it as the culmination of religion based antisemitism and hatred of immigrants. What is happening is an inevitable consequence of hatred. Israel has every right and reason to destroy Hamas.

The possibility of a lasting peace seems as far
away as ever. The history of failed negotiations
suggests it is largely because Israel prefers
the status quo.

Since the October 7th Hamas attacks Israel has
sustained an unprecedented brutal assault on the
Gaza Strip. The Israeli government has stated that
its aim is to eliminate Hamas.

But it is becoming increasingly clear that the war is
in pursuit of a second goal:

The mass expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.

There's more at the following:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/sada/90869#:

Dear Critic,

«Could this be true also

Israel is an occupying power, and as such doesn't have a 'right' to self defense, and Hamas is the 'resistance' militant force for Palestinians, who can't even get UN troops to protect them because of America's UNSC veto.»

This may be true for the West Bank.
I condemn Israel's occupation of the West Bank.
Whether or not that means that Israel has no right to self defence there could be the subject of another interesting discussion.

But Gaza?

Israel was not occupying Gaza, Israel has no interests in Gaza, yes Israel once occupied parts of Gaza, but it left them long ago, in 2005, forcibly evacuating the last of its citizens from there and wished the Gazans well.

Does the stain of occupation last forever? Would you also claim that English tourists in India have no right to defend themselves because India was once under British occupation?

The West Bank and the Gaza strip are not related: Israel took the West Bank from Jordan and the Gaza strip from Egypt. Under Netanyahu, regrettably, Israel would still refuse to hand back the West Bank to Jordan, should they ask for it (which they don't), but should Egypt at any moment agree to take back the Gaza strip, then even Netanyahu and his coalition would joyously kiss their hands. Even today in the midst of fighting, should Egypt declare that they want the Gaza strip back and re-assume responsibility for it, then Israel would happily be out of there at the drop of a hat.

"But it is becoming increasingly clear that the war is
in pursuit of a second goal:"

Maybe it's clear to people who swallow the antisemitic bunk being rolled out by Hamas sympathisers. Israel has consistently sought peace, but has consistently been subjected to hatred and violence with the objective of eliminating Jews from the region. Until Israel's neighbours acknowledge and condemn this I don't see any possibility of peace.

Hi Yuyutsu,
"Whether or not that means that Israel has no right to self defence there could be the subject of another interesting discussion."

- I think it goes without saying that every person and every nation has a right to self-defence.

That interesting discussion may be:

- Whether ANY Palestinian resistance group (whilst under Israaeli occupation) enjoys a 'right to attack' in the same way Israel claims a 'right to self defence'.

- Secondly whether 'self defence' does or does not include attacking (not defending) targets in Gaza protected by international law in regards to human rights and collective punishment on a civilian population.

Hi AC,

Hamas wants civilians to be killed and makes no effort to protect them whilst conducting war on Israel. Foxy claims a secret agenda of occupying the Gaza strip. Do you agree with this conspiracy theory? Here is Robert Spencer discussing the real history as opposed to the antisemitic, ant-immigrant, pro-terrorist rubbish being spouted by Foxy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDs58krKXm0

The former Israeli defence minister Moshe Dayan
once said:

"Our American friends offer us money, arms and advice.
We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the
advice."

These words have become only more resonant in the decades
since they were uttered.

Until the United States and Europe formulate a strategy
to make Israel's circumstances less desirable than the
concessions it would make in a peace agreement - they
will shoulder responsibility for the oppressive military
regime they continue to preserve - and fund.

When peaceful opposition to Israel's policies (nad its not
antiSemitic to criticize them) is squelched and those with
the capacity to dismantle the occupation don't raise a
finger against it, violence invariably becomes more
attractive to those who have few other means of upsetting
the status quo.

It is only through pressure on the parties that a peaceful
partition of Palestine is achievable.

But too many insist on sparing Israelis and Palestinians the
pain of outside force, so that they may instead continue to
be generous with one another in the suffering they inflict.
(sarc).

"When peaceful opposition to Israel's policies (nad its not
antiSemitic to criticize them) is squelched and those with
the capacity to dismantle the occupation don't raise a
finger against it, violence invariably becomes more
attractive to those who have few other means of upsetting
the status quo."

Yes, and I'm sure that some of your best friends are Jewish too Foxy. For me, the most convincing point of where the blame lies is this:

* If Israel's enemies put down their arms there would be peace. If Israel put down her arms their would be genocide.

That is the reality that Israel faces in preserving its existence. Revel in your hatred and antisemitism Foxy.

In 1948 when the state and boundaries of Israel were declared every person found with the borders were given Israeli citizenship. The fact that some Arabs did not wish to be identified as Israeli they formed the state of Gaza. But instead of making it a tourist destination they made it a hell hole and continued to war with Israel, and a hide out for terrorists.

Dear Critic,

«- I think it goes without saying that every person and every nation has a right to self-defence.»

I would sharpen it a bit, because a "right" is something that others in authority confer on you, which is not the case here.
So to eliminate the need for a third party, I would word it: "self-defence is [always?] morally acceptable".

«That interesting discussion may be:

- Whether ANY Palestinian resistance group (whilst under Israaeli occupation) enjoys a 'right to attack' in the same way Israel claims a 'right to self defence'.»

This generalised question could indeed be quite interesting and challenging too, but in this particular case the difficult aspects can be avoided altogether since attacking Israel with their meagre forces is only a senseless expression of anger and cannot result in them achieving anything positive, certainly not the end of the Israeli occupation: instead it only helps to bring hard-liners to power in Israel and cause those moderate Israelis who can so afford, to leave the country in despair and leave it in the hands of these hard-liners. Being peaceful could serve their purpose (if indeed they have any) much better.

In other words, the question is moot because in this particular case, attacking does not constitute a defence, it constitutes suicide!

«- Secondly whether 'self defence' does or does not include attacking (not defending) targets in Gaza protected by international law in regards to human rights and collective punishment on a civilian population.»

As for the first part, I think that would depend on the alternatives.
Self-defence should not use more power than necessary.
So can you think of some other way, something else which Israel could do instead and still effectively defend itself?

As for the second part, collective punishment is unacceptable, so if the intent is to punish the population, then that is wrong, period.
But is this Israel's intent? I think not.

Hi Fester,
"How would you compare the Hamas terrorists who went into Israel on October 7 with the likes of Brevic and Tarrant?"

On face value probably about equally, and that includes what Israel is doing as well.
- They all display an 'Ends justify the means' terrorism mentality.

If I dug a little deeper, I'd probably argue that Brevic and Tarrant were probably delusional lost causes who couldn't keep their feet on the ground and their mental health in check, where as Hamas probably did have some genuine underlying reasons (as a Palestinian resistance group) that brought it to this point.

I think Hamas were foolish for targeting innocent non-combatants
It would have been better if they only targeted IDF, but maybe the intention was to instill fear into the general population, just as Israel routinely does to the Palestinians.

I'm not a Palestinian or an Israeli, I don't know what it's like to walk in their shoes, or feel whatever they feel.

"So can you think of some other way, something else which Israel could do instead and still effectively defend itself?"

No, honestly I can't really.
They can't do anything accept respond when Hamas is firing missiles at them.
And they can't abandon their people who were taken hostage by Hamas.
- But I think they are so enraged they're more out for revenge than protecting their own people, and that could come back to bite them later.
(Netanyahu is probably glad they took hostages, it gives him a reason to kill thousands of innocent people in collective reprisal attacks.)

- But they don't have to act in such a way that shows contempt for innocent lives of non combatants.
By taking the lives of innocents so callously, they show themselves to be truly no better than the 'animals' they accuse the Palestinians of being.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It
http://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
'Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.'

>>That it’s sworn to destroy Israel? That it’s a terrorist group, proscribed both by the United States and the European Union? That it rules Gaza with an iron fist? That it’s killed hundreds of innocent Israelis with rocket, mortar, and suicide attacks?

But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback?

This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)<<

Dear Critic,

«It would have been better if they only targeted IDF, but maybe the intention was to instill fear into the general population»

Isn't this the definition of "terror"?

«- But I think they are so enraged they're more out for revenge than protecting their own people, and that could come back to bite them later.»

Not everyone, but there are those as well. I don't support revenge, but it is a natural human trait.

«Netanyahu is probably glad they took hostages, it gives him a reason to kill thousands of innocent people in collective reprisal attacks.»

Netanyahu in person cares only about avoiding jail and personal bankruptcy. In fact, he presently tries, as much he can, to restrain his Nazi coalition partners who even want to throw nuclear bombs on Gaza. He is not glad at all about the hostages - their families are giving him a big headache and further undermine his political future.

As for killing thousands of innocent people, Israel estimates that so far over 1000 rockets from Gaza failed and fell within Gaza, killing its civilian population. Hamas exaggerates the number of civilians killed, which includes the ones hit by its own rockets and the ones shot by it for attempting to flee from the north to southern Gaza, but at the same time it under-declares the total number of Gazans killed (claiming to be only 9,000+) because that includes more than 20,000 Hamas fighters, most of whom perished inside their collapsing tunnels.

«By taking the lives of innocents so callously, they show themselves to be truly no better than the 'animals' they accuse the Palestinians of being.»

The Israeli army is under strict orders to follow international law and avoid civil casualties where possible. Unfortunately it's not always possible, but only a despicable small minority is happy for it.

«That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups?»

That ISRAELIS, not "the Israelis" - most Israelis were not even aware when that covert idiocy happened.

Intifada. Kill the Jews is the chant.
http://www.msn.com/en-au/video/news/student-roundtable-antisemitism-on-college-campuses/vi-AA1jmuTk?ocid=msedgdhp&t=236

Eww nasty
http://twitter.com/timand2037/status/1721421987988275343

Thuggery is in the act, no matter who performs it.
There is no justification