In the barbaric Live Animal Trade which every tax payer is carrying it benefits just a few greedy shipping agents.

Robert has opened not one but two threads with complaints about the way in which they post.

The first car Park was to complain that several members were posting using their real names. Robert complained that this gave pale un unfair advantage claiming they were getting more posts.

I might add I find it interesting that Robert seems to think he is the OLO police. Belly has a theory that there may be certain political interference on OLO.
He has gone as far to suggest pale had some contact with other unions.
This is extraordinary considering pale SUPPORT the AMIEU and in fact they have had PALES petition up on their web site for years!

People against Live Exports and Intensive Farming (PALE)
PALE is working closely with RSPCA Queensland, AMIEU, farmers, live importers, and have found an alternative method for live exports. ...

Graham Young has given his attention to this Pale Car Park.
Made a comment. Does Robert respect that?- No

He is now arguing for OLO to change pales comments back from pale the organization to single members.

The old saying Some Mothers do have um.

Pale will follow Graham Young’s rules but nobody else’s.

Robert has no right to undermine Graham’s descions.
Pale is considering withdrawing from OLO but ONLY out of consideration to Graham –NOT because of Roberts control problem [In my opinion]
Or is it perhaps that Belly’s is correct?
Is this a political person working under a false name to silence us?
I don’t think it is but hey belly’s made a point so I guess we should listen to him.

Robert has no right to undermine Graham’s decisions.

If everbody forgot pale and put as much time :"into helping the Animals"!.
This world would be a better place.

I guess the moral of the story is – be careful what you wish for.

PALEIF: "Is this a political person working under a false name to silence us?"

Give us a break - you're off with the fairies again.

"If everbody forgot pale and put as much time :"into helping the Animals"!.
This world would be a better place."

Good advice. Why don't you take it?

My name is Allan Bell I am a trade unionist, if you see me you will know it is me.
My shirt has Belly proud to be union forever written on the right hand side.
I pay for those shirts myself.
I am afraid the person who posted as pale here has again defamed me, saying things I NEVER SAID!
I know of no interference in OLO, even Graham is reluctant to get involved.
May I say we must confront an issue, some are unable to understand the issue.
Some think people say things they did not.
No one ,not one single poster I ever heard of or saw here does not agree with pale on animal welfare.
A great deal share my view no market can ever exist for only meat exports.
Pale please do not throw references to other unions at me, do not expect me to fall to the floor or cheer loudly every time a union name is dropped.
My union is my passion, its middle of mainstream my selected path too.
I think it is time to say more damage has been done just lately to the name pale by those, and there are more than one, who post under that name.
Disjointed inflammatory and aimed to hurt ,that is how I see the post.
Let us all take a breath, lets understand we must not continue this insulting each other.
Understand this truth I tell each group that joins me in a workplace dispute resolution.
No one is always right, no matter how right you think you are the truth may be right in the middle of us, let us hear one another out without anger.
Now pale you know who I am ,is it asking too much to tell us who each of your posters are?

SPARKY [What have you done to me] - but must to respond to this. You are in danger of being mislead.

Robert said
Spanky, my initial idea for the "Car park" was if things get a bit heated.

Pale replies.
The only person that hot heated was “Robert” who became outraged because pale said- Robert you can not control others lives [especially when it involves a second marriage and other kids.

That’s it! Sparky- That’s all that was said.

Then he questions pale making comments on divorce?
- Who was posting? He wants everybody’s names?
-
-
- Oh this is AFTER he opened another pale car park a year ago INSISTING pale ONLY have one poster.

Pale lost over ten members who put in for OLO membership over that and NOW he wants it changed back!

Pale ignored him

Not satisfied and feeling annoyed at being ignored he opened pale Car park thread.

Robert said to Spanky

. In the original car park a poster felt sold-out @@@

Pale replies to Spanky
Weird is all I can say.
No idea what he’s on about- Except people could “think” he was referring to” pale” so I find it “purposely misleading’- considering your question was in regards to pale.

Robert and Belly seem to support deep conspiracy problems with some type of persecution.
Belly dislikes us because he “thinks” was our anti Labour and takes our posts personally.
Belly I keep telling you it’s not personal against ALP any more than the Howard Government.
Ask Howard what we did when he came to the Gold Coast.
If you can’t debate on its merit don’t... I am not a Labour plant from another union. You’re not helping ALP displaying disunity already.
Think about this belly- People judge you by the company you keep- even on OLO.
The thread was started for malicious childish reasons in my opinion
You make us laugh and we really enjoy you- Honest.
Pale “now reserves the right to respond...
That ought to please SPANKY at least

CJ......some people are off with the fairies..others dwell in dark little rooms...looking from side to side.. reading things on walls and sticking pins into little dolls and muttering odd sayings. :)

go Pale...

The individual posting as PALE has again failed to identify themselves. I don't want further abuse for attacking an organisation that cares for animals because I responded to the name the poster insists on using on their posts. For the sake of not being accused of claiming incorrect authorship of those posts or being acused of attacking an NFP caring for animals under the name People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming I'll call the poster "UPA". UPA stands for Unknown Post Authorship in case anybody is trying to find a nasty meaning to it.

I doubt I'll bother much with this thread, UPA has shown no willingness to deal with the issues raised on the other thread. Just in case anybody still gives UPA any credence on their posts regarding myself the earlier carpark can be found at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=70

The validity of UPA's claims can be checked for yourself.
If any of his/her other claims about me appear to be sticking drop over to the other carpark and ask about them, I'll try and answer coherant relevant questions. You might notice that I have taken considerable care to address a number of UPA's malicious claims regarding myself without any viable response from UPA.

R0bert

In my real life I have a mate, he turns up to see me at odd hours, maybe even 2 am.
He is about my age his number did not come out of the barrel for the Asian war he was regular Army.
We value our friendship, he is paranoid, its an illness he will have forever, we can not change that.
He votes conservative I vote Labor we remain mates, I have to take huge insults, but he does not understand.
My ability to understand he knows no better keeps us firm friends.
The miss information, and failure to understand unions will not let people see I have members not unlike my mate.
And I understand them too.
Some people can never understand, some people can never know their own actions hurt them far more than others.
We who can understand often carry the baggage in our friendships with them.
Sometimes like now we should with dignity put the bags down and walk away.
While friendship is a great Aussie thing if all you get in return is hurt why do it?
The claims made by the person posting as pale tonight are untrue.
I suspect he/she is unaware of that.

Robert- This is who posts on OLO - But you already know that.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

http://www.livexports.com/

You wanted OLOs first open public enquiry. You got it.

There will be no insults just evidence of OLO RULES being broken and perhaps a few jokes to keep it friendly OK?


Stick around Robert- After all thats what these threads are for.
Your the one who started them.
Of course while we are having OLOs first public open enquiry it`s only fair we look at `all` the evidence isnt it?

I mean look its clear you made a goose out of yourself but still no apology- just more goings on about nothings.

Everybody or most on OLO use nick names. Pale is up there for all to see.
Here are the rules Robert-

Robert, I don't think we have a rule against many people using the one identity. The rule is against the one person using many identities Insults are against the forum rules,
Posted by GrahamY, Sunday, 9 September 2007 7:10:19 AM

As this is a OLO public enquiry you have made it impossible for me not to bring out the '"real reason you started you pale car park thread."

Which was- A female came into OLO for the first time. Did she join any threads - No
But she opended a new thread for her first try out on OLO- Good luck to her at least she isnt shy.

No -Not at all- It came complete with a picture of herself as a single mum and an add selling goods.
It was of course a clever post.

You took the bait and soon there was talks of visting.

"I think thats sweet OLO has found its first love match".

You felt pale made you look foolish in front of this nice lady- So you opended the PALE car park.
Hell have no fury.

Thelma and Louise!

Bellysaid

My name is Allan Bell I am a trade unionist, if you see me you will know it is me.
My shirt has Belly proud to be union forever written on the right hand side.
I pay for those shirts myself.
Pale Replies- ' Priceless. I havent had this much laughter in years! Thanks belly.!

As your being so friendly I shall return same-
My names is Thelma and I wear a 'pink shirt with 'bugger' written on the left hand side.
It would appear we have much in common-oh Except for the right and left sides I guess.

I can see why your so upset "belly' I think Kevin Rudd Should pay for those shirts!

Fancy making a "paid union official" buy his own shirts with Belly written on them.-
Whats going on with ALP unions?

Its just not right.
Dont you worry little buddy old belly old mate. You leave it to Louise. I reckon she`ll write that Kevin Rudd `personally` and ask him to pay for those Union shirts for a Federal Union Official with Belly written on the right hand side- Shes like that Louise- very helpful.

THE ALP is going to the dogs. Just as well OZ isnt on this thread ah.

He would be most upset. We must be careful not to upset other people belly.

You never know who they are. Right Oz?

Seeing as my shirts are 'pink'- I wrote to the Democrates Senator Andrew Bartlett to see if they would pay for mine-

But they never got back-

bugger!

I note that People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming is presenting its usual professional and effective corporate image as an organisation concerned with animal welfare.

Ah yes CJ. I must admit I'm somewhat bemused by the reaction.
Rather than rational explanations we're seeing a retreat to the status of victimhood. Which is strange, because the persecution is largely imagined.
Strange in that all of this could be averted by an explanation for the reasoning behind posting practices and consideration of their spokesperson policies.

Speaking of OLO rules .....

Didnt the main author posting under the id PALE (wendy lewthwaite) get banned from OLO?

She used to post under her own name until then.

TERMS OF REFERENCES - ROBERT`S ENQUIRY INTO PALE.

As in all `good` Enquires it is important that we establish right from the start the terms of reference.
This sets out `what` may be considered as `evidence` and what is outside the` guidelines`.
Comes in handy at times-` Especially if you are a Politician.`

If we take the AWB Enquiry as a guideline and Government procedures you will know that you can not use evidence `outside those terms`

Reference see - Alexander Downer Mark Vaile. -

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html

That aside we are not interested in “shaving any evidence”

Robert has gone uncharacteristically quite. Come back Robert please! We like chickens haven’t you heard?
Robert has left this in another thread being reluctant to support “his own policy”

Whoever is posting as PALE has again posted regarding an imagined romance between myself and V.Amberlee.
R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 13 September 2007 8:19:23 AM

PALE REPLIES- Robert Your personal life is outside the terms of reference.
We are here to establish whether or not PALE has breached OLO rules- remember?

Robert Said
Now if we can just find an answer regarding the mental health, relationship status etc.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 13 September 2007 9:55:16 AM

PALE REPLIES

Robert Why do you hide out in another thread making bizarre innuendoes?

We have to work within the rules of OLO and the terms of this Enquiry- “Your enquiry-“ “Your complaint”
However-Just to show we are not biased we will open an” Enquiry thread into Mental Health”.

:PF Perfect - Timing- Where Yabb~s ?
Funny as!
Perhaps you could help with the next Enquiry into Animal Welfare and people who REFUSE to support farmers?

You will have to work inside the terms of reference of course.
However prior docs excepted.

For the record Ladies And Gentlemen- Speaking of Animal Welfare PF is a person BOTH GOVERNMENTS SHOULD LISTEN TO;.

PF Knows a little about "Codes of Practise of the Labour Government and the DPI- ALP"

Yet again outside the terms of reference to Roberts Enquiry into the use of OLO rules I am afraid.

1)

"CJ......some people are off with the fairies..others dwell in dark little rooms...looking from side to side.. reading things on walls and sticking pins into little dolls and muttering odd sayings. :)

>GO PALE<..."
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 12 September 2007 8:22:04 PM

THIS is what I find so inflammatory about you BOAZ, particularly your last two words. It is a deliberate attempt to fan the flames.
As a Christian you are the most extraordinary hypocrite!

_______________________

I too am becoming gobsmacked by this situation. I would remind you PALEaIF that you are an organisation posting on OLO; not an individual. Those you are critical of ARE posting as individuals.

This situation is a difficult one.

PALEaIF is posting as an 'Organisation'; as such it's members CAN post under that banner. Why SHOULD they have to reveal their identities. I don't. I use a tag. Therein lies the problem....,for me at least.

I am astonished that as individuals you can carry on in this manner under the P/F banner. (Is the RSPCA in Qld aware that you;-as P/L,- are conducting yourself in this manner whilst mentioning their connection with you? I will guarantee you that RSPCAQ would disassociate themselves immediately if they knew that this was going on from an organisation who aligns itself to them? I will be happy to contact RSPCAQ to draw their attention to this.)

2)

The solution is for each member of P/F who wishes to post under their banner uses a tag (username), and qualifies their post using the tag. This clarifies that the opinion is from that individual who is a MEMBER of P/F; and NOT from P/F directly.

Any matters appertaining strictly to P/F as an organisation have no qualifier. These matters off course being....; live exports/intensive farming!

If you choose not to do this, then it is abundantly clear to me and others that you are choosing to hide behind the P/F banner.

And to be honest with you; you could not be doing a better job than you are at dragging PALEaIF's standing into the gutter.

Its already been done Ginx. I too am surprised that Wendy would want to continue to risk her association with them.

As I understand it, Pale has an association with the RSPCA as a volunteer for Live Export issues as basically the 'keeper of the petition'.

PALE must not make mention of the working 'in conjunction' with the RSPCA in any other manner.

Oh, and Ginx, a certainly hope you have not confused my tag with having anything to do with pale.

PALE, might I suggest structured posts? It's rather hard to follow your reasoning. You mention that R0bert's jumping around the topic, but in doing so, aren't you doing the same?
Whilst at the same time, you don't actually refute his points. A little more clarity would be nice - at the moment, you're all over the place, and seem more concerned about rebutting perceived attacks with attacks of your own, instead of rational explanation.

You don't need to defend yourself. Try explaining instead, because everybody is simply confused as to why your organisation doesn't simply post under individual names intead of using the organisation name, for what are often topics unrelated to animal exports.

I'll say it again to make it extra clear - this isn't about attacking you or the organisation.

There have simply been a number of questions raised as to the benefits this practice offers - as it stands, there doesn't seem to be any reason to continuing posting in this manner, because it seems to drag the organisation into unnecessary debates.

If you can provide a good reason why, then fair enough. But you haven't provided any good reason why individuals should post under the organisation name for unrelated topics.

It's simple PALE - just tell us why? Is there a reason? That's all this is. It's not an attack. It's confusion. Can you simply please explain? Or are we in for another obscure tirade, which only damages the organisation further. Please, simply clarify.

Is there any reason why individual names can't be used instead? Antje, Wendy, David... I don't know these people, and I'm just confused. Wouldn't it make life easier if people just posted their own views under theirs, or even a new nickname?

I'd just like a simple reason for this practice, because from where I'm standing, it seems like this is a completely unnecessary furore.

Apologies PF!! I see what you mean!

No I did not associate you with PALEaIF.

Has PETA morphed into PALE ?, the agendas seem the same or has Peta become lost in the woods?

I note up the thread pale introduces me to yet another poster using the tag?
How many?
Are any just a little concerned at the hurt to the name?
The feminine drift away from the subject ,the opening of new battle fronts.
And the gallop away from both truth and reality is noted.
However not forgotten or forgiven.
Let me yet again try to help.
Could pale consider telling us who posts each post?
And is it pale the groups view?
Disjointed and quite strange these posts.
Not trying to be funny or rude but is pale run from a womens refuge?
This humor your seem to revel in? it it helped along by something other than girlish giggles?
Sorry but never again can I see pale as fair dinkum, never.
That is a shame but it is a self inflicted wound!
Can it be the group posting as pale do not understand the damage being done?
Then how can you claim to have influence?
Just think what if the next minister you need to talk to judges you by your Wil Robinson posts?
In print it looks like a very long girls night out.
I have no faith in your understanding of the issue or you ability to represent the best interests of even your group.
My evidence is your own posts.
no false friendly gifts to me please I have maybe forever handed in your baggage carry it your self.

No, SILLE - PETA still exists as an activist animal welfare group.

PALE, on the other hand, is an organisation that seems mostly to engage in schoolyard-level personal squabbles, tortured prose and xenophobic rants - and occasionally claims to do good things in relation to animal welfare.

I have gleaned this from reading the many comments posted in this forum under the name of 'People Against Live Exports and Intensive Farming'.

R0bert`s Enquiry continued-

It will of course require *skilled staff.

A few words from~ Belly.*

Bellysaid *
I know a little bit about dispute resolution,” after all it is my job”`````````````````funny as!
I am a trade unionist;” if you see me you will know it is me.”!
I pay for those shirts myself
.
"I AM A PAID UNINION OFFICIAL"
posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 September 2007 7:16:07 PM

PALES replies. - We are “sure” we would recognized you belly!
“
. + Well- with qualifications like that, belly - How can we ignore your skills`?-“ You’ve got The Job!.”

Pale decided to follow Belly’s idealist posts with suggestions of conspiracies working` within the terms of reference` and the facts he has presented to this Enquiry.

Already established something in common.

A “We both wear shirts”.
B He`s Labour
C The Democrats don’t pay for shirts either.-``

It got us thinking- Is this possible? Do we have something else in common -other than shirts?

Is their a pattern ?

Let’s explore this -

Hey belly- The Democrats don’t pay for shirts either – and they give preferences to Labour”.

Perhaps you are right about your conspiracy ideas- It seems they have the:”same policy.”

Do you think it might be another conspiracy belly?

But hang on- If that’s the case- All these people who have voted Dem`s for years on the” principles” of Animal Welfare have been done like a dogs dinner-

Because ALP Labour State Government have less Codes of Practice than the Federal Howard Government.

No wonder why the RSPCA National don’t know if they are Arthur or Martha

All these “Special Ministers” and so forth is enough to confuse a brown Dog.

Opps! Sorry Oz.

TURNRIGHTLEFT

The first fair question- Thank you.
The reason is when pale first joined OLO Robert, PF,and others launched a complaint that pale was using multiple IDs and people which he claimed was a breach of OLO rules

So Graham Young ruled that one person could post.
Caused quite an upset.
However they accepted OLO rules.

Now Robert wants it "changed back".!!

QED

Pale the attempt at humor fell like a watermelon from the back of a truck.
Be aware please only the letter T separates a wit from a twit.
The post looks like it was written then thrown up in the air and printed as it settled.
What does it mean?
Haven't got a clue it rambles and rolls past the lands of truth and reality it puts words in others mouths and impresses no one.
Just sometimes I feel sorry for pale, that such a group can become so lost in a debate none within the group have the skills to win.
Now again it reeks of misplaced self confidence.
It honestly reminds me of a girls night out that has been to long.
No heat from Me that is how it truly seems.
WHY?
Why pale do you let someone so defame your name?
Think with me here, some spend millions of dollars each year advertising a group or company each post tells me some one in your group needs help, in truth your group needs very real help, only pale can give that help confront to lost posts, the wasted bitterness.
And the mad rush away from the facts.
Your posts are little more than highlighted slanging match's not debate attempts to prove lies are worth while, to insult and hurt, and you achieve each target the hurt being done to pale is endless.
Settle pale breath slowly get control, think the issues out and settle.

Ah Belly, what you say is so true... the fact is though, we have been reading the same jibberish for the past 12 months. It isn't going to change I am pretty sure of that.

All the girls 'at the office' are of the same mindset. If you disagree with their point of view they see it as a personal attack.

Your attempts to reach them are wasted words. They seem to actually enjoy this kind of persecution.

PF
I stayed off the forum until I saw you here.
I forgave you for what you put up on the forum about me all that time ago because I thought you at least treated your animals better than most.
I was addmitted to hospital after those discusting comments and nearly lost my baby. That would bother you I am sure.
I thought at first it was another poster until I looked back after I got out of hospital.
I was as you know at one time working as often as I could at pale.
I know you wrote to pale complaing about the others. I saw the letter and the copy of their letter you sent.
I know once pale took up your cause you turned on them. I also know that you have caused a lot of trouble in the past. In my opinion your a women who makes nasty comments for no reason.
Pale has responded to a call for posters to use their own names.
Now you will remember when pale was banned for doing just that because you all caused trouble,.
Now I see you have posted Wendy was banned from pale.
Yor a real slice of works Lee.
pale does not answer to anyone other than OLO
Mind you own business as to who is posting
Oh but I forgot- Thats something that you cant do isnt it.

I am one of the people who lost psting rights on OLO a lng time ago.
At that time Robert opended a thread especially to talk about pale and who was posting.
Here we are again and your back to your same tricks.
That is why I stppoed posting on OLO because I thnk there should be one boss and thats Graham Young.
Why should pale put up there name in each post.
Look at you belly, PF and Robert wanted to leave when others suggested everybody use their own name all that time ago.
This thread was opended to give pale the oportunity to repond to complaints about who is posting. I read Graham Youngs comments but I see nne of you have bothered to accept his rules and keep going
you put up yur real real PF and You Robert?
No you dont want to but pale has put their web page up and on it are the names of sme of the people.
Sure pale have members- Hundreds in fact. Do they post on OLO
No but they wanted to
You lot stopped them and I know because I was one of them!
Belly stop playing the victim I have been reading all your posts from the start.
I am surprised pale didnt respond earlier.

Thanks for giving credibility to my comments and backing me up TarynW

Yes, but PALE, you haven't answered why you can't post under a name other than the organisation, or alternatively, highlighted the benefits of posting under this name.

We're all clear of the pitfalls, but you haven't actually answered my question. If it drags the organisation into these kinds of furores, why bother. If there is a good reason, then OK, but I still haven't heard it.

This all strikes me as a matter of trust. It's possible for any one of us to let others use our names but as far as I can tell, most of us don't.

Even with pseudonyms we trust that we can recognise the person putting forward an opinion. After a while you get to know people from their style. You can trust that they are who they say they are.

I'd recognise BD, Belly, TRTL and many others from their style alone, with or without a name attached. If TRTL's style or opinions suddenly turned up under BD's name, or vice versa, I'd feel betrayed. I'd feel I was being lied to. And I certainly wouldn't trust the name anymore.

And if I can't trust the name then I can't trust anything said in that name either.

Turnrightleft

As you are the only one to ask instead of trying to bully we will repond.
Firstly because we paid a membership as a "group' to join OLO.
However there are several other reasons turnrightleft.
Last year there was a Government threat made to RSPCA and other NFP Organisations to gag them from protesting Animal Welfare just before elections. They have been threatend that they will loose their tax deductions.

Also a few weeks Peter Costello has introduced a new law to gag Animal Welfare groups from having freedom of speech. It has mmuch further implications of course andis the begining of the end of free speeech in Australia.

Pale is dissapointed the others have headed for the hills. However we stand for a fair go for Animals and wont be bullied by a union bloke Howard Costello or other posters who are on an agenda to get the name pale off OLO.
You can sue us Mr Costello Mr Howard Szults Ebbet thats ok.

We dont mind loosing our NFP tag because we are not about money.
In fact we would welcome the publicty for the animals.

Also turnrighleft in the begining it was put to a vote if pale should join OLO as members. It was a yes from some anothers said they could not afford it.
So some kind people made up that difference.

Members would come in a usually had there own desk and computers and some of them had to share if extras turned up at the one time.

I am not saying they only came into the pale office to post on OLO -

I am saying OLO was important to them so they could post under pale and yes put up their names after comments.

The complaints about ID casued a great trouble.

There was also a mix up under the ID tag and thats all it was.
pale was banned from using OLO at that time.

It was compounded by the fact the OLO membership had just been paid.



Graham Young then said we could post again under pale.

We are!

Thank you for the explanation - it does clear things up somewhat.

I suppose it's a fairly vague situation. I can see the reasoning behind putting some posts under PALE, though from my perspective it would make more sense for posters to simply sign up for a free nickname to comment on various issues, then when an issue of live exports comes up, then to post under the name.

Of course the organisation is under no obligation to do so - nobody has called for anyone to be banned outright, and I don't see the point in attacking an organisation.
I'm as concerned about any legislation that gags organisations as the next poster, though the reason why I suggest the above format, is to avoid difficulties such as this.

R0Bert made the point in the other thread, that he felt as if he couldn't criticise posts made under PALE that were irrelevant to live exports because it would be construed as attacking the organisation.

I must admit - he has a point there. If it's an issue irrelevant to live exports, then the organisation risks copping unnecessary flak.

I see numerous solutions to this problem - it seems like it would be quite easy for PALE (the group) the develop an alternate posting policy that would still allow for maximum impact on the live export issue, without gagging free speech or causing arguments.

Taryn "Sure pale have members- Hundreds in fact. Do they post on OLO
No but they wanted to
You lot stopped them and I know because I was one of them!"

It seems to me that if we had tried to stop you posting (something I deny) that we have been particularly ineffective. As far as I can tell you can and do post so just how did you get stopped from posting?

I've just read the comment posted under the name PALE suggesting government attempts to silence PALE, if that is the context it may explain some of the unnecessary angst over requests for a different approach.

I'm not trying to have the organisation silenced or stop them posting. I am trying to promote a workable approach that lets other posters comment on posts which reflect private opinions without being accused of attacking the organisation PALE. I've also taken time to rebutt some of the regular false accusations made against myself.

Perhaps you could check the links I have provided in some of those rebuttals and then ask yourself how much of what you have been told about my actions and involvement regarding the organisation PALE is stuff you have discovered for yourself and how much is claims you have been told but that you have not actually checked or which would reasonable be made without some additional prompting.

A good place to start would be in regard to the claim that the original carpark was opened to attack PALE - one of the more easily disproven claims repeatedly posted by your friend. I've posted the link to the opening post of that thread a couple of times recently.

I've got no vendeta against the organisation PALE but do consider the behaviour of the individual who posts under that name on this site to be often extreme and worthy of challenge. I think that the work of the organisation PALE is placed at risk by the posting of views not associated with their work on animal welfare under their banner.

R0bert

Robert

There you go again! Telling people what do and how to do it and even what they can say and cant say under pale.
If pale is happy to leave a comment on other issues thats up to them- Not you!

You know it is really is none of your business.

Why is it Robert You cant mind your own business?

I remember you very well and I have nil interest in anything you say about any topic. I said it before and I say it Again. You can not control other peoples lives Robert- Or groups for that matter.

Turnrightleft
I see an attempt to be reasonable here.
What you suggest I am sure will be unexceptable because pale joined OLO as a group to stand up against political bullies gagging groups.

Graham Yung has ruled and I honestly think pale has grounds to complain to OLO for harresment
They will not take the pale tag off.
They dont have to and I suggest now everybody minds their own business.

However at least you can see the Gagging of Animal Welfare group issue so thanks for your comments
Taryn

No Robert NO
Thats the end of it.
I dont want to hear anymore of your going on and on like you did years ago.
I was one of the victims that contributed to have the honour of wearing the pale tag
You dont see me using it now do you?
Get A life!

TarynW - you say the group joined OLO to stand up to political bullies gagging groups, and is why they won't take the tag off.

I see some points that need to be considered though -

1) There needs to be a more concrete case made for the fact that the members would be gagged if they posted under a different tag.
For instance, each can pick a nickname they wish, and say in their posts that the organisation opposes this or that.
As it stands, I don't see any gagging here. There is nothing preventing them from commenting on whatever they wish - I suppose the crucial thing is that it means there is commentary on unrelated issues.

2) I was of the view that the foremost concern of the group was the live export issue. I say this because the other tangents are harming this message.

I can say with some experience in media, that the organisation is going to have a very difficult time getting spokespeople taken seriously with this additional carrying on.

What I suggest is the following - this would not gag the organisation in any way, and would actually improve the professionalism and the efficacy of their message.

1) Have members write articles for submission to OLO more often. A well thought out, carefully researched and written article carries much more punch than the commentary on these threads.

2) Have a member use the PALE nickname for commentary on issues relating to live exports only. Of course, this PALE person can start new threads on issues relating to live exports.

3) Request that this person be able to have another posting name. Given the situation, perhaps Mr Young will see the benefits to this practice and allow an exception, especially if the PALE person identifies themselves.
Use this name for posting on matters unrelated to live exports.

I believe this would clear up the situation, and allow everyone to comment on whatever they wish, while drastically improving the image and lobbying capacity of the group.

Turnrightleft and other posters

Thank you for your interest in how we run our organisation.
However PALE have made it clear in this forum they have no intention of changing their posting tag on OLO.
It is in fact why the paid a full membership unlike most of the other posters who use the service.

We suggest as everybody on this thread and others seem to have a interest it might be a good idea if you all formed your own group to help the Animals who very much need it.

Perhaps turnrightleft you could be some sort of spokes person for your own group and pale would very much encourage yourself and others to do so.

Any further attempt to disrupt our work with complaints as to how we run our 'own group' will be forwared to Graham young under a complaint of harrasment.

WE have made it clear a number of times we are not letting other posters change the structure of our group. In particular posters who have shown little interst in assisting animals or topics of Animal Welfare.

If Graham Young has allowed us to post under pale it really is nothing to do with anyboby else.

This subject is now closed and pale will not respond.
If you wish to lodge[ yet another complaint] to Graham Young regarding "his forum rules that is up to yourselves.
I think your also being very unfair to OLO staff taking time needed else where.

"Thank you for your interest in how we run our organisation."

Not a problem, as usual its great for a laugh.

PALE - it's about perspective.
You're certainly not under any obligation to take the advice, which I offered only in the interests of assisting you to become a more effective lobbying force.
Quite frankly, I don't see any flaws in my suggestions which were offered in good faith, though for whatever reason, which you seem unable to articulate, you feel disinclined to take it. Very well. I'll not make any more suggestions along this line, nor will I level particular criticism at the posting practices of PALE. It is of course, the organisation's decision.

That is not to say I'll not be criticising the content, and reasoning behind posts made by this individual/organisation.
In choosing to continue posting in this manner, the group must be open to the same criticism that is levelled at any given poster.

And that being said, I refute any notion there has been harassment. If you feel as if there has been, I urge you to click the little face over the bottom of my post, and review any of my many comments on various threads. In all instances, I offer reasoning behind my comments.
If you're going to say there has been harassment, you will need to be very specific, because it's unreasonable to make such harsh accusations even if you perceive that you are defending yourself.
I am quite happy to compare the nature of my comments compared to those made under the PALE banner, which I believe have often been made without due consideration, and have often been far less than professional. Again, I'm willing to provide examples.

In choosing this option which is most certainly your decision, PALE has to realise that people will disagree with many of their posts, especially given that many of them are on issues unrelated to the live export trade and the organisation has to wear the consequences of that.

Turnrightleft

I know for a fact pale was not refering to yourself on the posts.
What you probably do not know is pale runs on two levels.
Mostly the president and others work with overseas and overseas contacts.
This is a link to that work. I think you may find the three lawyers and other official rather caplable.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

I just thought it may help you to see where most of the efforts go.

I am going to point out however you seem a little disinterested to start you own group given your interest.

I am in hope you take that onboard when you ask other people to consider your motives.

PALE also arrange for people[ mostly their own] to visit farms with feed and other handy items.

The pale office s pretty much self funded by the way.
Unlike every other Animal Welfare organisation I have been involved in they put fund raising last on the list.
In fact they dont fund raise at all.
PALE members are made up of all sorts of people who like the freedom.
I know for a fact when you go into their office you are valued as it you were the queen or King.
Well, what I am trying to say is it may be different than all these snobby fund raising lot but its real
The people are real and I wouldnt ever want to see it changed to a rule for this and a rule for that.
Everybody is happy and everybody gets on well.
Some of the people are a little older and they dont just wrte letters .
OLO is just a small part of letting the Gvernment know that while the others are to gutless to speak out on behalf of the Animals there are some good people who put Animals before the almighty dollar!
I just wanted to Say that.

TarynW, pale I find no reason, none at all, to believe anyone was stopped from posting here because of a tag.
I find the story the government is trying to kill of pale or some such, unbelievable.
TarynW I find much of the shotgun brand of debate pale uses in your posts, I simple as it is do not think for a second your story about your visit to hospital is related to OLO.
I remind posters of words written above, regardless of what name is under it some posts tell a different story, can it be the same problems exist in more than one pale poster?
Let us read ROberts words then those that answered him, also look more closely at the reason given that no other way exists but for the group known as pale to continue its apparent practice of sharing the tag.
stop reference to paying the fees, if we could indeed when we can we will pay to help this great forum, but no fees exist we have seen that in print from the site owner.
Are you using that term as a pressure point?

Belly
Taryn doesnt have to answer to you. Nor is Taryn posting under the pale tag in case you didnt notice.
You say you cant stand us making a point of union bullies but you are the one who has plastered the fact your a union official.
You go on about how great a bloke you are and how ALP have changed along with unions.
Ok Belly well just for a moment let us leave the worrying fact that you are incharge of some union out of it.
Lets look at Belly as a man.
Your on record as saying many unprofeshional things about in your own words a very bitter little old lady and a couple of others that got together to highlight cruelty to animals.

I cant see much leadership material in that I must say.
We have given you the oportunity to get on with your Pro Kevin Rudd threads and stop your childish attacks on pale.

Now you are going for Taryn who has made a point not to post under pale.
Your stupid claims that anybody said the Government were targetting pale are beyond the pale.
If you had the "slighest idea" whats going on in politics in Australia you would know the Government have passsed new laws which effects every Animal Welfare group.

pale is simply saying if we loose our NFP Tag by speaking out before an election so be it.

I hope they get a good look at what they are getting if they vote labour
The ALP bully mentality is alive and well
did I say mentality- because i really meant the lack of it.
Taryn you dont have to re live anything because of a very off union official.

Dont worry if anybody puts it back up on the forum. I am sure good old you know who is looking for it right now.

Remember the old moto pale says- Sometimes the bastards do you a favour.

Your safe now. It cant happen again kiddo
For The Animals!

belly pales tag is our business!

Thelma and Lousise

"pale is simply saying if we loose our NFP Tag by speaking out before an election so be it."

For pity sake!

No one can even pretend to be that dumb. Ther are thousands of NFP organisations in this country. By shear definition of a registered organisation you are required to be not be for profit.

Get over the self persecution.

Then again, I can only imagine pale as being a no profit organisation and nothing else ... if you get my drift... so you really dont have anything to worry about wendy.

PF
You maybe unaware RSPCA and all Animal Welfare organisation were told if they protested live exports around election time they took the chance of loosing their tax decuctions and possibly their NFP status.

Its a matter of record so you are free to access this information.
If you dont know that you know very little about the Government and its position on Animal Welfare groups.


Also just for the record I will address your post a few days ago regarding pale.

We are the petition owners and we work with RSPCA QLD and in conjunction with them in regards to Live Animal Exports.

We have no association with RSPCA National office apart from of course everbody support the Animals but we are QLD not ACT.

WE are not as you put it keepers of RSPCAs petition nor are we volunteers for RSPCA QLD- However happy to acknowledge we work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD in regards to live exports only.

Your were also advised in writing by lawyers that if you continue your lies either on OLO or anywhere else you would be liable for any loss of funding is you make it impossible for our CEO RSPCA QLD to continue our association.
I see you have now chosen to continue down that path of self destruction in your efforts of a vicious attack continued from along time ago.
The, points made clear to you in that letter were not for a years or two Lee they were for life.

I draw your attention to your posts which are flaming.
Which you have also been warned and banned over in the past.
pale will not be responding to posts from you in the future

PALE: At the risk of getting another of your diatribes claiming everyone's picking on you, why can't the individuals posting as PALE simply post their individuals thoughts as individual posters, identified or not? Why is it that you seem so determined to drag PALE's name through a stack of issues unrelated to the purpose for which PALE was formed? Would you like the members of the Grazier's Association (for example) to be commenting on behalf of the organisation about such matters as child custody law? Do you think that would enhance or detract from the public perception of the organisation? Why?

TarynW: I now understand that your main reason for being a PALE member is social, according to your post above. Fine and dandy and I appreciate the fact that you use a handle other than the PALE one to post your views on matters unrelated to animal exports, but I can't for the life of me see what makes you think that suggesting that should be the case for other posters is somehow attacking the right of the individuals within the group to put their views forward or is somehow "controlling". Frankly, what I see from PALE and yourself is a definite attempt to be uncooperative with the mores of this forum and to offend as many as possible for no good reason. How does that enhance the standing and assist the work of PALE? Don't you care about that?

Pale in front of me is yet another print out of your posts, it is standard practice to get it in writing read and re read before entering the consultation rooms.
Can you be unaware of this?
Can you think you DELIBERATE LIES, YOUR SPITE, your dysfunctional splatter goes unnoticed?
Me in charge of a union?unprofessional things?
Surely you are not unaware it is those posting as pale and those posting as supporters who are such?
Symptoms of something else are on display by those very same.
claim after claim is unproven.
The holders of a petition? tell us about it.
Get out and mix a bit it is much needed.
Would you understand it if I told you I have every right to believe something is very wrong with your cell of pale? that if every member of that group right across Australia sat down pale would heal its self?
In this sad excuse for a debate your group has gave much evidence for years to come to those you oppose that not very much you say is worth while.
While I do not share the view that market exists for all meat export or local ,that some live export is going to happen cruelty in that trade must stop.
And pale rightly so highlights that fact.
I am greatly concerned true, about a post here or in the car park thread.
It is by Taryn. and it informs us pale is not the office ,it tells us the office of the group is a word for Islamic rightly killed meat?
can that be true? the group is about exporting meat? do you? no you would not understand the conflict others would see there.
Resolution lies in pale hands, you must understand you fuel the fires with increasing lies.
increasingly lost posts, find you way out of this get help.

I now offer that help, remember before pale elevates me to the head of the ACTU this is a fantasy.
Just what I would do if my task was to settle a workplace dispute, indeed what some one in pale one day must do.
Sirs as we are aware recent discussions have become heated insults have been made.
I do not wish to hide the fact the group I represent has played a part in that.
At this time I extend our sincere regrets and undertake to see no person from our group ever again talks about past issues, that we expect the same from some in your group and feel assured it will be so.
We have swapped our red shirts, no longer will every one wear the same shirt while at work, each of us will be clearly defined and all will understand who is who.
I am sure when representing our group, of which we are justly very proud, we will do so while making it clear who has the right to do so, and who is doing it at that time.
I am pleased that members of your group have continued to inform us they share many of our views.
The past is regrettable our pledge to lay it to rest is forever as I am assured is yours we undertake without reserve to control our team and thank you for pledging to do the same.
Again thanks for this chance to rebuild relationships we must keep in regular contact to keep both our pledges.
May I request those meetings while remaining civil at all time take place in a thread called lets talk?
regards and again thanks, the shirt was in need of a wash in any case.

Wendy, you can threaten and harrass all you like but the truth is that if you ever tried to take legal action against a poster here, you would be laughed out of court!

Dont forget, all your rantings are on record.

Antiseptic Belly, PF
And all other Posters- Graham Young has already commented on this issue.
Please respect the forum rules and consider he has more to do than go through your rants` again`

Pale has not as yet contacted OLO about your refusal to except OLO rules however if it continues will do so.
Here are the rules- And this rubbish has gone on now far too long.

Robert, I don't think we have a rule against many people using the one identity. The rule is against the one person using many identities. I wouldn't let someone else use my identity, but as I understand it Pale’s identity sometimes accidentally gets used by other posters because a number of them use the same computer and may not log-off from their identity each time they finish with the forum.

The result is that sometimes a poster with a separate identity ends up using Antje's because they post without realizing they haven't logged in separately. I've accepted that as a genuine mistake. In fact I've once or twice accidentally done it myself when visiting other OLO readers, but as moderator I have tools to fix the problem as soon as it happens.

I don't think it behoves anyone to criticise others on the forum for ungrammatical sentence construction, or poor spelling. Most of you are an editor's nightmare.

I do think you should all stop insulting each other. Most people who spend a long time on this forum are most likely genuine or they wouldn't spend the time discussing these issues, although this can be, and frequently also is, a sign of eccentricity.

Insults are against the forum rules, and it looks like I am going to have to enforce the rules as this thread appears to be getting out of hand.
Posted by GrahamY, Sunday, 9 September 2007 7:10:19 AM

PALE, I don't see anything In Graham's post that suggests that he thinks I'm the one using insults. I've probably gone further than I normally would have but don't believe my posts are characterised by insults or threats.

I've also posted twice the rule that the site has against more than one person using an identity. I've noted that in my opinion it is not really a big issue except that it makes it difficult for the rest of us to identify who we are responding to. For your reference in case you missed it earlier

"registered user or subscriber services are for one user only and you will not let any other person use your User Password or any registered user or subscriber services" http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/display.asp?page=legal

If you are willing to stop your attacks on me I'm quite happy to discontinue this discussion, I think the points that need to be made have been made.

You have made it quite clear that PALE the organisation chooses to accept the risks associated with having personal views posted under it's name without disclaimer or identification of who's views are represented.

R0bert

I am not a weak man, but I know the value of talking things out, the truth in that if you take the first step to reunite a group it can bring rewards.
Strangely for this bush kid who could not read or write on leaving school I have learned the art of debate, this is not it, the time has come.
Threats continue insults and in my view to repost Grahams words in this thread is so very wrong, to mix those words in another context is nearly evil.
I have no wish ever to try to help pale again, never ever will I offer an olive branch.
Never will have have any trust or any respect for the group posting as pale.
Break forum rules? clearly we would have been called to task long ago if true.
PALE I have a feeling some in the group are not totally in control of their thoughts, that some professional help may be called for.
Evidence shouts at me! this is a back yard group! not trained in the best interests of those it says it protects.
Halal meats? is that how it is spell? can it be good practice that a group based on animal welfare claims its office is headquarters for a meat exporting business?
that claim is made in the pale car park.
Nothing can make me trust pale again, nothing can get me involved in your painful world of imagined hurts and pains.
Graham may act as he wishes I challenge your right to re write his post in another context
I wonder how long we can stop asking the question is it more than eccentricity that drives some pale posters?
Yes the two threads are interesting and will gather many readers but pale sheds followers here like falling rain drops.
While too late for many do you have ANY UNDERSTANDING of the threats you in fact use?
The miss truths?
The outright rudeness?
good by pale.

Robert

No is nothing in Grahams post to suggest he was referring to yourself and no intention was meant to suggest that.

In fact ” he mentioned you were one of the long term users and more polite posters on OLO
Graham respects you.

. That you take a personal pride and sort of act as a keeper.

He was speaking to all OLO users

I will tell you upfront pale did not complain or ask Graham to intervene.

Pale will of course respond to personal attacks but does not stoop to insults.

Humour`s our response most times.

No disrespectful meant by posting Grahams guidelines.

Just reminding people what they are without bothering him.

If you look down Robert you will see some people never learn.

I think your idea of peace is a good one.
We have made it clear we intend to use OLO as we joined and as we see fit and following OLO rules- End of Story.

I have only one question to ask you- Are you going to continue your community service as a keeper of sorts to OLO?

You opended this thread about pale etc- I hold you just a little responsibly for undoing it.
So how are you going to stop your buddy’s abusive attacks on your thread?

Just read the post below yours Robert. Its disgusting and a clear breach of rules of the OLO forum
I am sure you will say you are not responsibly and fair enough I will take that onboard too.

Belly do you agree with Robert? The way I see things we have three things going for us here- actually four.

A Roberts suggested we abandon this thread and our tip one.

B Belly has promised never to help pale again

* Belly’s found God - `funny as`

Sorry Robert I couldn’t resist.
It’s a joke belly- how about you just take it as such and drop the attitude ok-How about giving OLO some peace and yourself?

Pale: "Antiseptic Belly, PF
And all other Posters- Graham Young has already commented on this issue.
Please respect the forum rules and consider he has more to do than go through your rants` again`"

Actually, I asked about your view, which is the reason for the site. What is wrong with suggesting that people log in with their own handles to make comments about things that are their own opinion? I do.

Secondly, why can't the posters who use PALE's computer to post simply log in with their own handle?

as i said, this is not about Forum rules, jsut an effort to understand why you people feel so strongly about the subject. Given the "rants" I've seen above the PALE handle, it would be nice to get some straight answers.

Speaking of posting practises`or Handle’s. Yours is interesting. Nine comments “only” -five or six of those swipes at PALE.
Almost as if somebody had come on just to keep stirring this column and insult.
Why not quit while you’re ahead.
I really don’t wish to bother OLO with it.
Tell you what though, I will answer your question` in part`- call it a back flip of attempted gagging and blacklisting.
you`ll figure it out.
Look after the animals instead of being rather foolis

Speaking of posting practises`or Handle’s. Yours is interesting. Nine comments “only” -five or six of those swipes at PALE.
Almost as if somebody had come on just to keep stirring this column and insult.
Actually, only one was a "swipe" at PALE, the others were seeking reasoning for the opinion your group offered as to why you should not take what the rest of those here obviously feel is a more honest approach and post individual comments under individual handles. You still have not provided that explanation and despite civil requests from several posters, all you can do in response is offer irrelevancy and vituperation. I certainly don't hide behind a collective handle to post my personal opinions, why should those in PALE? As for insults, my dear, they've been flowing thick and fast from PALE and those associated with it. I became interested in the thread because I am a supporter of PALE's work with live animals, but the behaviour of those who are posting in the group's name has changed that. If a cause is worth becoming activist for, it is worth the full attention and best efforts of those who choose to take it on. Sadly, I can't see how the behaviour of those posting above the PALE handle here is advancing any cause other than ratbaggery. I do hope none of PALE's Government funding is being used to pay for that?

PALE: "Tell you what though, I will answer your question` in part`- call it a back flip of attempted gagging and blacklisting.
you`ll figure it out."

If that's your "justification", it's especially poor. It's the same twisted logic a kid who was asked to stop misbehaving by a porter uses to justify his subsequent graffiti attack on the station. I didn't ask about the past and, as you seem upset to note, I wasn't here when whatever you're little grudge is about took place. I asked what is your reasoning for not posting individual opinions as individuals and I note you are still not able to provide a rational reason.

*I bet the exporters of live animals just love dealing with you - it must be like taking candy from a baby.*

* See, THAT was a swipe

PALE, I'm not sure how to respond to your post at the moment without risking stirring up things again that I think have had their day. No attacks intended in this.

I think that more insults are posted under PALE's name than you accept hence the post early on which listed some of them. I doubt that we will agree on that, I've made my point, you have made yours and continuing to restate that stuff does not seem to be helping us resolve anything.

I'd be nervous about the idea of being a community gatekeeper, I'm a part of the community who responds when stuff really sticks out to me as being unfair. I don't always like peoples choices but am mostly bothered by perceived double standards or what seems like heavy unprovoked attacks or situations where what looks like a misunderstanding spirals out of control.

I rarely use the recommend deletion button and as I've said elsewhere generally only for straight out flaming or promotion of violence, I've not attempted to have any of your posts on these topics (or any others that I recall) deleted. I don't recall ever using it in relation to a post aimed at me.

If you disagree with the posts made about you try a polite reasoned response and see how it goes. Sometimes it works wonders, if you are talking about Belly's post he and I disagree on some topics but when treated with courtesy my impression is that Belly responds in kind.

If I see you dealing with others using consistant courtesy and copping abuse in response I'll happily stick my two cents worth in.

R0bert

As i have just gone through these posts i find it strange that there is more complaints about PALE standing up for other causes than about being against live exports.

One would also have to commend an organisation who try's to do what is right and still has to fight with people and reasoning why this is bad.

For one Belly would know this is bad as these are jobs going overseas, maybe belly would like to comment how labor is try to keep those meatworkers jobs here.

For what i am aware to rules, Graham Young is the moderator so do as he says, it really is that easy.
I find that PALE has the right to comment on other issues as we all do and as we do get heated.

The point is PALE is fighting for a cause and just because it has an opinion on something else does not mean it should be kept within the bound of just PALE.

We could also recomend what i do put your full name and what you do on the end.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent Candidate for Charlton

Robert

I would like to “politely point out” that `your thread` that `you started` was unfair. We dont answer to how pale posts to yourself or other posters.

You sit there ever so quietly saying it’s nothing to do with you.
You! stared this.

If your claims were true you wished to only assist pale help the Animals you would` not have sat back `so long saying nothing seeing these comments.

you even `politely` encouraged poor old belly.

I stared to copy some insults. There are too many.

It’s mostly about how pale posts which you raised before a year ago.

If you go to the top of the Pale response thread it will tell you why we feel you started the pale car park
“ That has not changed”

Here are just a few comments which ARE unreasonable

Now pale you know who I am, is it asking too much to tell us who each of your posters are?
The individual posting as PALE has again failed to identify them Robert
Speaking of OLO rules.....

Didn’t the main author posting under the id PALE (Wendy Lewthwaite) get banned from OLO?

She used to post under her own name until then.
Posted by PF,
Robert said
now if we can just find an answer regarding the mental health, relationship status etc.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 13 September 2007 9:55:16 AM

>GO PALE<..."
Posted by BOAZ David, Wednesday, 12 September 2007 8:22:04 PM

When Boaz stuck up for us THEN hes! abused?
THIS is what I find so inflammatory about you BOAZ, particularly your last two words. It is a deliberate attempt to fan the flames.
As a Christian you are the most extraordinary hypocrite!

_______________________
I would remind you PALEaIF that you are an organisation posting on OLO; not an individual. Those you are critical of ARE posting as individuals.

I put it to you that you have caused enormous damage to pale.

I Wont blame OLO but YOU

Think about that

Have a lovely evening

I remind PALE taht the two simple questions I asked remain unanswered.
1. What is wrong with individuals who happen to be PALE members posting their individual opinions using individual handles?
2. Does PALE consider the poorly-expressed posts on unrelated topics enhance its cause to protect animals from maltreatment during live exports? Why?

I have another:
3. Why is PALE unable to exercise control of their own computer equipment to prevent people using it for purposes unrelated to PALE's purpose, such as single parenting and gender politics?

I could ask several others, but let's see if we can get an intelligible answer less than half a page long that actually addresses the questions before we get too carried away.

This is my last post in this thread.
My next one in a pale car park will be the last in that thread.
As I leave I want to say without Malice.
I have no respect for those posting as pale.
I feel without room for doubt for a very long time we are debating with a tag team we know as pale.
I also feel while I have unfortunately been rude in reply a few times pale has mastered rudeness.
Threats and near screaming rage in so very many posts.
It is unpleasant.
But unlikely to change.
I will not reply to pales posts again here or in any forum.
Aware of damage we do, yes even those who simply request better from pale to the forum I have considered leaving OLO.
I have left other forums to see an end to such insults, I am far from a coward and for a time will see if this refusal to communicate with a clear and certain trouble maker helps.
Tapp not here, I will debate all your points if you start a thread but ask you to remember forum rules about diverting discussions.
Your claims interest me, knowing they are shallow and without substance I am shaken that a candidate for office would use them.
Start the thread please.
Pale you need to address your non OLO issues this is no place to display them good by.

Belly
As Robert said he opended these threads to sort out and problems or even aligations of mis use of forum rules `by pale` that is what we are using it for.
You belly were not really the problem and we rather enjoyed your antics. With `respect` we feel you were spurred on and we acknowledge your loyalty to your union and friends.

I think in your case you misunderstood pales posts not understanding why we would be interested in the ALP China etc.
Putting it in its most simply form belly
Your not the person who started the threads against us. Your not our man.
You may have participlated with 'vesto' but you were encouraged I am afraid.
We understand you were angry about our joke regarding shirts but hey belly we are fighting for the animals and this is political and no rules were broken.

Now you say that pale have broken those rules and even at times insulted you.
Let me first say that its not the purpose of pale to insult anybody and certainly not to break forum rules.

WE have asked you many times to paste on Roberts thread these attacks you claim to be made.

We feel you owe it to yourself and Robert who has purposely set up this thread to do so.

You also owe it to us to outline evidence which you have raised repeatly.

If there is something that has been posted which has not been in reponse of course to an outright attack to us you have our word we will apoligise without hestiation .

Antispectic we were not refering to you earlier. Have patience in time all will be revealed.

I am sure also Robert having a community interests will not jump ship now as he opneded these threads he says to improve OLO services.
We will look at threats to contact others for the purpose to damage.

Then Robert we will explain why pale wont be bullied or bought by anybody and why that is so important.

Sorry, PALE, not good enough. Firstly, your comments earlier about "a little man" who has a "problem with women" "flaming", were a personal attack on me. I don't believe your disclaimer. Secondly, you are attempting to obfuscate on two simple questions (3 now), which go to the heart of your organisation's purpose. Frankly, I'm not interested in your silly games, I just want a simple set of answers to some simple questions. You obviously feel that you are justified in your decision to post collectively, but you can't offer a reason: perhaps you should examine your position?

On the subject of appropriate use of tax-exempt supplies: I have a business that has some tax-liable and some tax-exempt supplies. I have been audited to check compliance with the rules and to ensure I don't abuse the system to fail to pay tax on items that attract it. Has PALE been similarly audited and did the use of office equipment and telecommunications services form part of the audit?

As I said earlier, I am a supporter of PALE's cause, but so far, what
I've seen here doesn't give me the slightest confidence that PALE is actually anything other than a social club and a vehicle for self-promotion of the founder and her businesses. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Antiseptic

I am trying to work out your questions.

Please post these in order.

thank you

For Tapp:

These are the questions I posted above

"1. What is wrong with individuals who happen to be PALE members posting their individual opinions using individual handles?
2. Does PALE consider the poorly-expressed posts on unrelated topics enhance its cause to protect animals from maltreatment during live exports? Why?

I have another:
3. Why is PALE unable to exercise control of their own computer equipment to prevent people using it for purposes unrelated to PALE's purpose, such as single parenting and gender politics?"

I think you'll agree they're very simple questions.

Now one will have to ask Graham Young the answer to this as it is he who has made the account for pale and the reasoning behind that goes to him.

I would also look at the fact that i would have thought that there would have been questions regarding animal welfare, keeping jobs in australia.

But hey what does labor and liberals really care about this.

That is all i can say as the truth is no longer a possibility for me to post without someone complaining about the facts.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent Candidate for Charlton

The Forum is where this arose, their collective behaviour is beyond the "pale" and I am really wondering what they have to hide. Their response when questioned is to bluster and threaten and I am not one who suffers bullies in silence. They can clear the matter up by answering my simple questions and getting back to "helping the animals". They'd get a lot more respect from me.

BTW, I have no particular political affiliation. I would once have regarded myself as a Labor voter, swinging to Greens, but now, I'm not committed to any party or set of parties. Whoever comes up with the policy is who'll get my vote.

Aticeptic

We certainly are not bullies unless you count hassling the Governments I suppose to improve Animal Welfare.

We would love to hear from you Antispectic on threads discussing what can be done to stop cruelty to our Animals.

Sorry things got heated. I think that was the intention to be honest but we are not caring a drudge.

There is far too much history to go back now and if you look in the car park you will see we are following SPARKYS sensible example by walking away.

We should have done it ages ago in hindsight. Its not fair on OLO or our group either.

Yes we are looking to support the Greens given they are the only party to have a decent attitude toward Animal Welfare.

They support keeping jobs in Australia and banning live Animal exports.

If you are interested there is a informed poster under Tassi live Exports.

This is our last post and we wish everybody well.

PALE: "We certainly are not bullies unless you count hassling the Governments I suppose to improve Animal Welfare."

I beg to differ, given your response to my simple questions.

PALE: "We would love to hear from you Antispectic on threads discussing what can be done to stop cruelty to our Animals.

Sorry things got heated. I think that was the intention to be honest but we are not caring a drudge."

I may well contribute to such threads in future, which I trust is the subject to which PALE will be confining its contributions.

My intent was not to get "heated". As anyone who knows me will attest, I despise hypocrisy and I have to say that your response to the thread or to the questions raised was not in line with the way you would wish to have your own questions to an organisation answered. It behooves you, as an organisation seeking to change the way in which other organisations operate, to behave with the utmost rectitude if you wish to be taken seriously. to do otherwise invites ridicule and the potential for serious harm to your group. My intent was to demonstrate that to you and I'm glad you bear no grudge for my efforts.

PALE: "There is far too much history to go back now and if you look in the car park you will see we are following SPARKYS sensible example by walking away.

We should have done it ages ago in hindsight. Its not fair on OLO or our group either."

I don't agree. i think that it has been very beneficial to your group and I don't believe there is any way that it damages OLO. Good luck with your animal efforts. Keep the mongrels muzzled and they won't get kicked.