david f,

<<Agreeing on definitions does not mean agreeing on substance. It only means you're talking about the same thing.

If you're not talking about the same thing, discussion is pointless.>>

I'm not talking about substance or definitions. In fact I don't care, particularly when we're talking about open debate, discussion and important issues.

The reality is if two people always agree, one of them becomes completely redundant. You can't expect that imposition to placed onto someone else, but selectively exclude yourself from such a principle.

I am a vegetarian. There people in this area that identify differently and hold differing views and values, like vegetarian, vegan, plant based, those who eat fish, but claim vegetarian status etc. and we will disagree, sometimes respectfully, sometimes not.

Whilst there are others that hold differing and stronger views, have differences on substance and definitions I still respect their views and can debate with them as people with rigour. I don't put out single, one dimensional lines and then use that to opt out of the debate - a topic which is very important.

I also understand that discussion will and can lead to better outcomes. This is much better than war, violence, bombs, attacks etc. We must value words more and give them the respect they deserve.

We face a range of important issues to address globally. In this topic we are talking about reading the Lord's Prayer in Parliament and at Local Council meetings and it's a debate we must be able to have with others - no opt out clauses included.

Dear Dave,

Thanks for enlightening me with that most interesting link. One can never read enough about Hitler. Indeed, Hitler did lie about being a Christian as he did about other things, all for the purpose of pursuing his horrible agenda. Your quoting from the link was incredibly selective (tongue in cheek?) as pretty much the entirety of what you did not quote from said the opposite. Do you think there might be a self help book called "How finding Jesus helped me build my own National Socialist movement"?

Dear Banjo,

You are welcome, and I thank you for your explanations also. One further question about your belief that reading the Lord's prayer is unconstitutional: What is your position on the constitutional status of Christmas and Easter? Why might they go unchallenged as religious observances?

Dear Paul,

«A fair question is to ask you to name those organised groups you consider to be religions? If its not, maybe, Buddhism, Taoism etc etc.»

No organised group that I know is wholly religious - human organisations are mixed bags. The Buddha himself predicted that in 500 years time after his death, the group that will carry his teachings will distort his teachings so much that it will cease being religious. He did not use the word "religion" or "God", but effectively that is what he said. We now even see Buddhist monks violently attacking Muslims in Myanmar.

Yet there are some groups and sects, even within Christianity, Judaism and Islam, where overall, I believe, most of their adherents, most of the time, benefit from them spiritually, where more of them are drawn by the group closer to God than those which the group repels further away from God.

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Dear Fester,

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You ask :

« What is your position on the constitutional status of Christmas and Easter? Why might they go unchallenged as religious observances? »
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Christmas was, of course, a pagan feast called Yule, the winter solstice, before Christianity hijacked it to celebrate the birth of Jesus. It has never been exclusively a religious feast and, in fact, the date of Jesus’ birth (presuming he really did exist), is unknown (nor is the date of his death).

The Encyclopaedia Britannica adds :

« Since the early 20th century, Christmas has also been a secular family holiday, observed by Christians and non-Christians alike, devoid of Christian elements, and marked by an increasingly elaborate exchange of gifts. »
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Easter originated as an ancient pagan celebration of the spring equinox celebrated around the time of the Jewish Passover. However, Christians who did not participate in Jewish customs eventually merged their ceremonies with the pagan spring festival, recognizing Easter as "resurrection day.”

A major symbol of Easter is the Easter egg. This symbol goes back to the Ancient Babylonians. They believed an egg fell from heaven into the Euphrates River, and "hatched" the goddess of fertility, Astarte (also known as Easter). Pagans exchanged eggs as gifts during their springtime festival.

Neither Christmas nor Easter are exclusively religious feasts. Christianity simply jumped on the bandwagon of two major pagan feasts that have existed ever since time immemorial and which continue to exist independently of religion.
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In Australia, Section 115 of the Workplace Relations Act 1996 is the federal law that defines our public holidays :

(1) The following are public holidays:

(a) each of these days:

(i) 1 January (New Year’s Day);
(ii) 26 January (Australia Day);
(iii) Good Friday;
(iv) Easter Monday;
(v) 25 April (Anzac Day);
(vi) the Queen’s birthday holiday (on the day on which it is celebrated in a State or Territory or a region of a State or Territory);
(vii) 25 December (Christmas Day);
(viii) 26 December (Boxing Day);

(b) any other day, or part-day, declared or prescribed by or under a law of a State or Territory to be observed generally within the State or Territory, or a region of the State or Territory, as a public holiday, other than a day or part-day, or a kind of day or part-day, that is excluded by the regulations from counting as a public holiday.

Section 116 stipulates :

Payment for absence on public holiday :

If, in accordance with this Division, an employee is absent from his or her employment on a day or part-day that is a public holiday, the employer must pay the employee at the employee’s base rate of pay for the employee’s ordinary hours of work on the day or part-day.
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To the best of my knowledge, Fester, the state does not participate in any religious activities relating to Christmas or Easter. Nor does it oblige anybody to participate in any such activities. It simply allows people to take leave of their work obligations on public holidays without loss of remuneration.

They can do what they like at Christmas and Easter and that is perfectly constitutional.

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Oops ! The reference I indicated as the federal law that defines our public holidays should have been the latest version of that law which is the Fair Work Act 2009.

Sorry about that.

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