How stupid can the government be ? The Arabs are the 2nd last
occupiers of Israel.
The last occupiers were the Ottomans, and before that the Arab
Islamists invasion occurred on their way to invade Egypt,
North Africa and India in the 8th century 700 plus years after the Romans left.
Then after the war ended in 1945 the Jews again took control of Israel.
Israel has long been invaded, by Damascus, then the Romans, then the
Arabs and then the Ottomans.
I think after all that others might understand why the Jews get a bit
impatient with all the chatter that they have invaded and occupied Israel !
It takes a real bit of STUPIDITY to ignore all that !
But then we know all about how STUPID this government is don't we as
they still rabbit on about how cheap is wind & solar.

This is plain silly. According to the book of Joshua, Jews took the land from the Canaanites. Jews are occupiers also. We need to find and bring the Canaanites back and have everyone else leave. Non-Aborigines need to leave Australia. Non-Maori need to leave NZ. Non-American Indians need to leave the Americans. Bring back the Neanderthals to Europe and let everybody else leave. Finally, get rid of the cancer that is humanity polluting the earth, and leave it to the other organisms. It would be a finer, better planet without humans. Except that I am 97 and don't want to go yet. Come back, everybody.

Dear David,

We don't want you to go either.

May you live long and continue posting on this Forum.

Big hug.

It's always good to see a new thread - particularly from people other than the same old same old.

But Bazz, with the greatest respect, why do you bring up Israel, for which there us no hope, never has been, never will be, when there is so much rotten stuff going on in our own country?

Dear Foxy,

Read the encyclopedia for instructions - especially the volume - How to Hug.

Dear David,

You know the world is pretty much screwed if you
need instructions on how to hug.

Sure ttbn, but where are the Canaanites ?
They could put in their claim.
It is like asking where are all the Mesopotamians and the Zorastrians?
They all went the same way as many of the jews went 1400 years ago.
Convert to Islam or pay the Jizaz or die !

Dear Foxy:

A to Ant, Anat to Blob,...., How to Hug, etc.

I believe Israel has received too many diverse cultures with conflicting values today to be united as a Jewish State, which is what the current Government want. It is the same problem they have in America; they call it democracy, but it has polarized into diverse conflict. The same thing will happen In Australia, as we take in too many diverse cultures with an aim to control society. Japan for me is the most stable social democrasy, they restrict who lives there.

Dear Josephus,

That is a thoughtful post you wrote. Perhaps, there is an optimum amount of diversity. Too little and you become insular and impervious to the outside world. Too much and you become subject to irreconcilable conflict. My father lived in Japan over a hundred years ago, and he spoke fondly of his time there.

Hi Josephus,
The West is actually pretty screwed up, it claims to have virtues and values, but it's all just a stageshow.

Take Niger for example...

http://saharareporters.com/2023/08/08/dont-be-drawn-french-proxy-war-niger-national-observatory-tells-ecowas-nigeria

>>One of these power mongers in the African continent, a Russian head of a Corporation Mercenary Armed Enforcer, "Wagner Group," Yevgeny Prigozhin, succinctly captured the essence of the crisis in Niger when he analyzed how Niger' Uranium is being buccaneered:-

"French company that extracted uranium sold it on the market for $218, while paying Niger only $11 for it..."

Think about Cadbury chocolate in Woolies on special for $3 a block, you don't think people picking Cocoa plants in Côte d'Ivoire, Ghana or other African nations get paid fairly?
Well they don't, they probably earn $100 for a 60 hour week.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/apr/03/cadbury-faces-fresh-accusations-of-child-labour-on-cocoa-farms-in-ghana

We in the West exploit others for our own benefits, and I mean the Western business executives not necessarily 'we' the consumers.
Not only do western multinationals and elites exploit and profit from these countries, essentially having a vested interest in keeping them sh*tholes, then we go and give them aid as well, and then we import those same angry disadvantaged people into our own countries, then we call them 'minorities' and give them more than we give our own citizens.

The West is out to exploit everyone, including it's own people.
Why is a packet of rollies $120 here, and $12 somewhere else.
Why are we spending hundreds of millions on an poorly thought up referendum or foreign aid, when there's over 100,000 homeless Australians.

Just read the article, my mistake, it says they are paying 10 year olds just under AU$4 a day, because they can't afford to hire adults.

"Children as young as 10 have allegedly been found working in Ghana to harvest cocoa pods to supply Mondelez International, which owns Cadbury. Campaigners say the farmers are being paid less than £2 a day and can’t afford to hire adult workers."

Where are the Canaanites?

Modern research indicates that the Canaanites and the Jews are one and the same!

When the Jews/Judeans/Canaanites began, at the time of King Josiah, to follow the Biblical god, they were too embarrassed about their past worship of the idols of Ba'al and Asherah (including in Jerusalem's temple), so they invented the "Canaanites" as separate idol-worshiping people whom they presumably fought and vanquished. Most archaeologists agree that the book of Joshua is fictional (for adoring that believed-to-be-a-god leader, Joshua).

Now about Israel's occupation:

Apart from by a few hopeless Muslim fanatics, Israel's existence and presence in its region is not generally contested.

What is being contested, however, both within Israel and outside, is Israel's particular occupation of certain regions it took in its 1967 war.

That Israel had to fight and take over these regions in order to drive out the threatening Arab armies, can hardly be contested either. The question only being, why did it stay there once the Arab armies were vanquished and routed.

The 1967 war wasn't fought, as retrospectively claimed, on behalf of Judaism - it was fought by a corrupt socialist government for the sake of aggrandisement and looting, which cared the least about Judaism, Jews or the Bible. While they had all sorts of excuses, the true purpose of that war and its following occupation, was to allow Moshe Dayan, then Defense Minister, to loot archaeological artifacts in the occupied territories for his private backyard collection.

The bad spirit and arrogance in which that war was conducted has corrupted Israel till this very day, produced violence in every walk of life and torn down its society. Today we are seeing some of its bitter fruits.

Asking whether Jews are entitled to the whole land of Israel, is asking the wrong question. The real issue is that the poisonous proceeds of Israel's 1967 war that corrupt Israel from within, must be renounced and never enjoyed. Had the territories in question been or will in future be taken in other hypothetical circumstances, we could then re-examine the validity of such occupations separately.

Yuyutsu

Well, following along with your sentiment then, you’d be happy for the Ukrainians to not occupy Crimea if they manage to topple Putin.

Israelis settlements on the West Bank are not illegal. Even the US accept that position, and Biden hasn’t changed the US acceptance.

So what is your real gripe?

Dear Dan,

If the Ukrainians in Crimea no longer want to be part of Ukraine then I am most happy for them to not be. Same for any region of Australia. The problem is that so long as Russia is there, no fair and unbiased referendum can take place.

«Israelis settlements on the West Bank are not illegal.»

Surprise Surprise, I have nothing against these settlements as such.
If these Jews want to remain there and defend themselves without the Israeli army, then so be it.

As you could learn from my many comments here over the years, I have not the slightest concern whether something is legal or otherwise, only whether it is right or wrong. All I know is that Israel's 1967 (I wish numerals had capitals, then I would capitalise that number) occupation is very bad for Israel and corrupts it from within. For Israel to heal itself, it should leave these territories all the way to its original border, not keep even a square millimeter. This also includes Eastern Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

The Jewish settlers were not in control in 1967, they did not initiate the war nor the decision for Israel to stay in its occupied territories, thus they are not at fault. I just wish they renounced their Israeli citizenship and remain to live happily where they are.

Yuyutsu

Well the green line and the 38th parallel share the same legitimacy: These are not mandatory borders.

The fat lady is yet to sing.

Dear Dan,

This is not about international border lines or anything international at all, this is an internal Israeli issue, relating to its internal history and probably the most important thing it ever had to deal with.

The way the 1967 war was conducted, the corruption, the criminal intent by a criminal Defense Minister, and the arrogant militaristic spirit it introduced, the spirit warned against in Deuteronomy 8:17, forgetting God and instead saying - "And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth", that spirit corrodes Israel from within ever since and is now shattering it to pieces.

Israel cannot recover and return to its good old self until it repents and renounces the fruits of that war. The practical aspect of it essentially consists of a return to remain behind the pre-1967 green line.

I don't understand why you hate Israel so much that you want to prevent it, in the name of some foreign (American?) interests, from reforming, regrouping, cleansing, healing and returning to being a shining moral example to the world.

Dear David,

Sometimes the right hug from the right person
at the right time helps during bad times.

All The Best.

Yuyutsu

I don’t hate Israel. I think you misunderstand my interest in the new push for the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan 2.0, as an alternative to the two state solution as acceptable, I don’t know that it is in reality, on the grounds that I know very little of the bones of the new proposal: But it certainly would need to be an improvement on the original Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan 1948 model which was a. Disaster of slaughter between Arabs and Jews. No side is pure in that conflict.
It seems to me, this is the axis of your gripe.

But the question is posed quite simply, how can Israel be accused of illegally settling in its own territory? Viz West Bank.

The green line was always an arbitrary line of truce drawn on a map to facilitate a truce, and has no legal impediment to the advance of Israeli settlements.

This question always falls down on a leftist and a right view of Israeli affairs.
I understand your view is one focused on humanity and its tendency towards evil, and that is high minded, but unrealistic.

Y,

Israel's poisonous 1967 war? Rubbish!

The wars between Israel and its Arab neighbours in 1948, 1967 and 1973 were all started by the Arab countries. Israel simply finished them.

shadowminister,

You RWNJs really do go all out trying to rewrite history. Virtually all the wars have come from blatant acts of aggression from Israel.

67 was a prime example.

"On 5 June 1967, as the UNEF was in the process of leaving the zone, Israel launched a series of pre-emptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort."

Why was the UNEF leaving the Sinai and Gaza?

Answer: Egypt expelled them preparatory to war. They then occupied the UNEF's positions overlooking the straits of Tiran. Using those troops Egypt then closed the Straits to Israeli shipping, an act of war. Meanwhile the Syrian army began deploying in Jordan across the boarder from Israel - I think it was sightseeing deployment </sarc>.

That Israel struck first was merely down to their better preparation. But the war was caused by Arab aggression.

BTW, I wonder why SR didn't provide a link for his quote? Could it be that doing so would have provided a better understanding of the casus belli for the war?

Here's what SR didn't want to show..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

So 1967 caused by Arab aggression. Now do Yom Kippur.

Dear mhaze,

Lol.

And what does the link show?

"In May 1967, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the Straits of Tiran would again be closed to Israeli vessels. He subsequently mobilized the Egyptian military into defensive lines along the border with Israel and ordered the immediate withdrawal of all UNEF personnel."

Note the: "mobilized the Egyptian military into defensive lines along the border with Israel".

What do you think defensive lines are for? Aggression or defence?

The canal was handed back to Egypt in 1956. Egypt had sovereign rights over it. Israel along with both France and Britain INVADED EGYPT.

"13 June 1956: Suez Canal Zone was restored to Egyptian sovereignty, following British withdrawal of about 90,000 troops and years of negotiations."

Israel invaded in October of that year because Egypt exercised its sovereign maritime rights over its waters in the Strait.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis

It always annoys me, the treachery of the US in the Arab/Israeli conflicts is virtually never raised.
We in Australia should take note of this unreliable alliance, and again it should be highlighted since Canberras official line since the election of Labor has changed again towards Israeli settlements, referring to them as “ Occupied Palestinian Territory”.

This without doubt, is a push less than subtle, by the US Democrats, angling towards branding settlements as illegal, which of course they are not.

The Democrats rainbow ideology as usual, follows the path of antisemitism.

Dear Dan,

«I think you misunderstand my interest in the new push for the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan 2.0»

Oh that one was not on my mind.

Well, to me this looks like as nothing but a Saudi plot against Jordan.
If any so-called "Palestinians" are freely allowed into Jordan, then they would surely plot to topple the King and the rest of the Jordanian establishment, then invite the Syrians to take over. They tried this before and almost succeeded. No one can trust these "Palestinians" and no one should have to admit them into their country unleashed.

This may be a Saudi interest (due to its historical rivalry with Jordan over who is the true heir of the Prophet), but for Israel that would spread Syria and the troops of its patrons', Iran and Russia, all across its long eastern border. I don't even want to contemplate what could happen to poor Israel if Iranian and Russian forces were lined across its eastern border instead of the friendly buffer of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan it now has. I'm afraid that would spell Israel's violent end.

«as an alternative to the two state solution»

Well I don't support the two state solution either because it would leave Eastern Jerusalem and other sections of the West Bank in Israeli hands and remove Israel's incentive to get rid of them. A poisonous sting must be removed completely, cutting out just part of it is not very helpful.

«how can Israel be accused of illegally settling in its own territory? Viz West Bank.»

I am not the person to ask about legalities, maybe it is legal maybe it is not, but if such accusations help getting Israel to withdraw from the West Bank then I am happy for it.

«The green line was always an arbitrary...»

The significance of the green line is that any territory to its east is a gain from Israel's 1967 war. For Israel to renounce the poisoned fruits of its 1967 war, it must keep to the western side of that line.

[continued...]

[...continued]

«and has no legal impediment to the advance of Israeli settlements.»

I only oppose the presence of Israel there, not of Jews. If Jewish settlers wish to remain there on their own then they should be allowed to stay.

---

Dear ShadowMinister,

«Israel's poisonous 1967 war? Rubbish!»

What do you know about the internals of Israeli society?
What do you know about the arrogant, violent and militaristic songs that Israelis started to sing following Israel's 1967 victory?
What do you know about the true intentions of Israel's government when they started the 1967 war, as opposed to the declared reasons.
What do you know about the violence of the 1967 war spilling into every aspect of life in Israel, including domestically and on Israel's roads?
What do you know about the country that lost its character and its way due to that military victory, which as a consequence is now on the brink of civil war and breaking up?

«The wars between Israel and its Arab neighbours in 1948, 1967 and 1973 were all started by the Arab countries. Israel simply finished them.»

Yes, Israel successfully did whatever it needed to do, it destroyed the 3 attacking Arab armies, but once it finished it did not need to remain in those territories.

This has nothing to do with Arabs and everything to do with Israel's internal affairs.

Taken from the web:

"I have a friend whose name was Mohammad.
He shortened it to:
'Don't shoot.'"

For those of you who criticize the "Eastern" way of dress:

Western dress is a 10 gallon hat and cowboy boots.
The rest are regarded simply as clothes.

"What do you think defensive lines are for? Aggression or defence?"

Its to defend positions taken as a result of aggression preparatory to more aggression.

Caesar surrounded the city of Alesia with two defensive walls. So clearly he wasn't the aggressor </sarc>

Dear Foxy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ7bVuXTYv0

Steelereflux,

Once again you are being liberal with the truth. Firstly Nasser had made it perfectly clear to the entire world that he intended to put together a coalition to drive the Jews into the sea.

Egypt then assembled a massive army and airforce with the help of the Russians and moved this massive army to the border with Israel. Next, it blockaded Israel's port (an act of war) and then Egypt then forced the UN peacekeepers that separated Egypt and Israel in final preparation for battle.

At this point, Israel was entirely justified in retaliating and only LWNJ's or morons claim that Israel started the war.

ttbn,

The person here is called Bezza, not Bazz. Please be respectful and call them by their actual name, Bezza. Just what is occurring here? Is the person in question using a different name to try and fool people? I don't think so.

Not to worry Nathan, there is a bug in the Forum software and in
trying to get around it I had to change my nickname to something else.
The fault is still there as I do not get the notifications.
If I try to change my password it says it will send me a code so I
can change it but the code never arrives.
It also does not arrive in bigpond's web mail box either.
I have recently discovered that news emails from The Australian are
not arriving either but that is quite recent, just the last week.
The problem with this site is about 15 months old.
All other emails arrive OK.
Cheers Bazz