Hi Ginx... well...that went nowhere did it ?

I tried...and now I'll try again.

The questions I raise are serious ones.. because I would rather see some kind of consensus based on reality rather than enmity based on dogma..

Now.. you might jump on that (dogma) and suggest that most of what I say is based on that. Ok..fair point in some cases. Where Islam as a faith claims to be the means of salvation, sure..I repudiate that without reservation.

But that isn't the only area of contention or concern. I believe there is a threat to our whole way of life, and that is irrespective of if one is Christian or Atheist. On the 'way of life/freedom' aspect, you should (if ur honest) be able to engage constructively.

Now.. my primary point is that "Islam" is a political system as much as a spiritual one. You're welcome to dispute this, but it should be on the basis of sound evidence and of course, their own dogmatic,scriptural,historical perspective. If 'they' say "The world and all that is in it belongs to Allah and his messenger" and they then interpret this politically and militarily.. then there is a serious case needing to be addressed. (by the Atheist and the Calathumian)

Is that such a hard thing ? Do you see any problem in addressing that issue ? If so, why ?

Now..these are not irresponsible or unfair questions.. so, while 'I' am the one raising them, that should not dissuade you from engaging with them, specially if you are here for serious debate rather than 'Christian bashing' :)

How about a retry on the questions..or.. you can even provide a few of your own (re Islam)... and I'll do my best to participate in an effort to find common ground ?

1)

Good morning BOAZ; how has your day been so far?

Me? Glad you asked...

I have just spent 35 minutes being fed 'musak' by our largest telecommunications (geddit? telephone COMMUNICATions...HA!!). One simple question. Just one. And I have been handballed (more musak) to more hapless frontline staff who have to take the brunt (No, not from me, but their 'quality control' recording WILL show that I have requested that their senior management and 'exertiv's'......well; you know;..where the sun don't shine; that sort of thing..).
I even made it to a nice young man in the Philippines.
Ah! the vagaries of 'customer service'(a'la, "we value your call"), for the late 20th/21st century.

You see BOAZ, the thing is; I am now not the happiest of Vegemite's.
Now;-whilst I think you have achieved the very pinnacle of religious hypocrisy; you don't tend to get really nasty.

Picky, dogmatic, some tacky little digs; and a religious bloodhound who simply will not stop...But not really nasty.

So given that; and though I'm as close to perfect that you're even going to get;...I do have some ( negligible) faults, I will do my damnedest to try to get though to you without being a bad girlie.

I reckon the gizmo thingy will stop me here, so I will thrill you with part deux. Maybe.

2)

I'm very tired. I am so tired of all this.

It staggers me that you believe you can question me like some sort of interrogator, and I will dutifully respond. Sooo..., you set the agenda; I follow and cooperate. Naive. Very naive.

As it stands though; I have answered haven't I? Point by point. But with MY agenda. That does not meet your requirement; ergo: I haven't answered.

I have made my opinion on Islam bashers (your terminology..) so damn clear.

What drives you David BOAZ is your intelligence yes; and your obsessively driven charter that you WILL bring people to YOUR path of true righteousness whether they like it or not.

If your fella exists; you know..; the 'He' fella; AND He is all that you feel He is............; then I guarantee you BOAZ; he would be ashamed of you. ASHAMED!

I am ashamed of the hatred and mistrust of all; - OF ALL - Muslim's.

I KNOW if we continue this hatred we ARE going to cop it. This is not vilification of the Chinese, the Greeks, the Italians; the Vietnamese boat people; and the last victims of hate;- the refugees from wherever. They are refugees; that was enough.

Now we condemn an ENTIRE group; with a religious and philosophical belief that has hundreds of thousands of followers.

...sigh,....people like you are denigrating a tiger that is not sleeping but snarling. 'We' cannot put 'them' in their 'place', like we have done with others. So 'we' get angrier and angrier at 'them', and they return fire.

What can I say that will have any impact on people like you?

Nothing.

Give it up with me BOAZ. You'll lose.

If you start again. I will simply refer you to my previous posts.

Don't waste my time.

Paul.L, I disagree still with your conclusions.

>>you are wrong when you say “.. factions practising a form of RANDOM terrorism, their activities fed … by the HATRED AIMED AT THEM”<<

The acts are pretty random. There is no pattern. There are no clear targets. They seem to be perpetrated by small groups of individuals. They use different means of expressing their hatred of the infidel etc.

I'm not certain what would be a good antonym for "random" in this context, but I'm pretty sure the acts themselves would not fit within it - can you offer one that works?

There is also a massive distance - in terms of what needs to happen in between - between the first statement - "[t]hese groups have significant support throughout the Muslim World" and your conclusion... "the Islamo-Fascists will attempt to overthrow these gov’ts creating a new caliphate."

It assumes that Islam's enemies are throwing away their weapons and lying down to be trodden on - which, if the scale and scope of current anti-terrorist activities is anything to go by, is way off the mark.

I am aware that some shallow-thinkers equate my antipathy towards any outpouring of bigoted anti-Islamic ravings, with Islamophilia. This is of course nonsense. What I do advocate is that we ensure that the laws are clear, and the laws are both upheld and able to be upheld. If we tread this path with resolve, the problem will gradually diminish, and eventually become background noise.

>>Your comparison with the Tamil tigers etc. is specious. Al Qaeda is not a nationalist body...<<

Nor did I suggest that it is. Simply that people fight each other for many reasons, and to be blown up by one faction is no less painful than being blown up by another. It was public vigilance and a consistent application of the law that eventually prevailed over the IRA - their cause did not change. Nor was the religious aspect ultimately relevant in the management of the terrorist activity itself, only solid police work and public revulsion of any and every terrorist act.

Boaz, your record for taking wild assertions and turning them into "facts" is, frankly, legendary.

So: attribution, please, for "Statistics have been provided showing around 60% of UK mosques are run by radicals"

Needless to say, if you a) "can't remember where you saw it", b) found it on the website of a highly dubious source or c) misinterpreted "radical" to fit your agenda, I won't be at all surprised.

Again you avoid my earlier question by attempting a bit of subtle re-phrasing:

>>The Important Question though "Is criticism of Islam contributing to greater radicalization by marginalizing the moderate/whole community"?<<

This presumably yet another attempt to sidestep the simpler, more direct and immediate question, "...is the problem likely to get a) larger or b) smaller, if you keep picking at it like an old scab?"

"Criticism of Islam" is, in itself, a singularly impolite act, especially when conducted with the zeal, malice and lack of balance that are the hallmarks of a Boaz-bash.

There is no doubt in my mind that if you were to meet me at my front door every morning and criticise my choice of footwear, I would eventually change my normal, moderate and tolerant stance, and take a swing at you. I'd consider that - however much you thought that yellow and black co-respondents are an affront to society - you were significantly out of order to go on about it so viciously.

The fact that some people consider religion to be of greater importance than shoes, only underlines my point.

>>Given the much more pervasive influence of radical fundamentalism in the UK than in Australia, would you consider the tone and content of we 'Islam bashers' to be out of order if we were there?<<

Yes I would. I know it is fashionable to believe that the UK has already been overrun by Islam, but this is very far from the case. The problem of rabid anti-Islamic rabble-rousers is equally prevalent, and is equally unwelcome there as it is here.

It is just that over there they have already morphed into neo-fascist political parties.

Pericles,

The attack on the Spanish Railways was the most successful act of terrorism in Europe in a very long time. It resulted in the complete withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq. Do you think that occurred by accident?

The attacks on Shia sites in Iraq, which killed hundreds and directly led to the current low level civil war, were committed by AL Qaeda with the intention of making the country ungovernable.

The assassination of Lebanese MP’s by Syrian backed Hezbollah is directly aimed at defeating the party currently in control by physically reducing their majority. They don’t like the current gov’ts support of the West.

The acts are anything but random. To pretend that they are, suggests an unwillingness to listen to what the terrorists themselves are saying.

The targets are twofold. In the West the Islamo Fascists are targeting the left, not for assassination, but for the necessary societal rupturing which will lead to defeat from within. They are counting on the lefts fierce opposition and are actively propagandising for that market.

In the Islamic world they know they have no chance of help from a soft left. Instead they intend to kill as many of their opponents as they can. As in Lebanon.

If you actually have a look at my quote you will see that I said that the Islamo-Fascists will “TRY” and overthrow the moderate Muslim regimes. I agree that these states will not roll over belly up, but with popular support within the country, and a chastened West no longer prepared to intervene, their task will be a lot easier than it should be. They have every chance of success.

This isn’t about the imminent overthrow of Australia’s secular gov’t by Muslim radicals. That is silly. Its about strategic defeat and the strengthening of the hand of militant Islam. There is NO WAY these problems will go away by themselves.

You seem to believe that the current problems are caused by OUR intolerance of Islam. This is an unsupportable conclusion. 9/11, Bali bombings,7/7, African embassies, USS Cole, all occurred BEFORE any backlash against Islam