Muslim group that wants to open a giant £100 million mosque in London has set its sights on “winning the whole of Britain to Islam”.
Tablighi Jamaat aims to build an Islamic complex near to the site of the 2012 Olympic stadium, with a mosque for 12,000 people, by far the largest religious building in Britain.
This is the headline of the Times Newspaper in Britain
Please go directly to the source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2419524.ece?Submitted=true
Is this what we really want here in Australia?; for this to be a headline in years to come; with the backing of overseas interests already funding the building of Mosques here?

Britain has some wonderful advisers on the "spread of Islam" problem. I expect the old bulldog will survive any further penetration until she gets her full act together. Dont know about Australia though. The multiculturalism thing lingers on and she's pretty apathetic most days. We need a bold, super strong man or woman to stand up and give us the true and clear picture. Pauline started off well. Hope she keeps going. ASIO seems to keep the "threat knowledge" mostly to themselves. ASIO should come out and tell us. Its their job to tell us about the stored away guns for jihad etc.

Dear Gibo

I noted your reference in another thread to an acquaintance who apparently knew of a weapons cache in 'radical' land there in Sydney... I hope I can presume safely that you have handed this information directly to AFP and ASIO mate...

Yes..this mosque is a real problem.. a very great threat. Purely from a Symbolic value it is a threat. It shows the extent that intrusive cultural/spiritual enemies will go when give the freedom and opportunity to do so, specially when backed by Saudi Oil $$

What many fail to realize is that Islam spread through a perception of power. This becomes very clear in a reading of how Mohammad united the tribes of the Arabian peninsula. Many of them just waited to see if he 'won' then.. swore alliegence to him..and Islam by default.
Had the Quraysh won...they would have gone the other way.

"Symbolic" strength will definitely influence many people of weak will and empty conviction...looking for a sense of belonging. They have interpreted the gentle grace of God in Christianity as 'weakness and irrellevance'..they are looking for the same kind of Messiah which caused most of the Jews of Jesus day to reject him... after all...who wants a Messiah who says (after the disciples FINNNNally 'get' it that he IS the Messiah)

Mark 8:31

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

HUMAN REACTION... Nooooooo... we don't want THAT kind of a Messiah.. (said Peter) we want the BIG BRIGHT SHINY, FLASHY, BOLD, VICTORIOUS, MILITANT, POWERFUL NATIONALISTIC Messiah.....

Jesus responds to Peters outburst:

"You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus embarked on a 'hearts and minds' campaign.. He knew, as does the Almighty, that only when men are changed on the INside...will society be changed

Herewegoagain!

Will they convert the WHOLE OF BRITAIN!! (ooooooh!)

NO! It might come as a shock, but people WILL decide what THEY want.

Same for Australia. Or have you so little faith in yourselves?
It ISN'T contagious; it will NOT seep through your pores as you sleep! You will not wake up with a big BLAAAACK beard,(and that's just the ladies!).

Way to go eh?......;let's maintain the scare tactics, and it justifies US hating THEM.

Strewth!

Ginx,
Are you are not aware of the Government funding of Islam in Australia? View the multicultural programmes and recognise what religion has government grants to explain its acceptance to ordinary Ozies. They lobby Labor State Govts to introduce vilification laws. However the dept of ethnic affairs controlled by Muslims take advantage of these laws to stiffle free speech as it relates to their religion in Victoria especially. To speak ill of Islam or their prophet is vilification under Steve Bracks laws. This law is the beginning of shari'ah blasphemy law. It does not need a civil revolution to change society, just a few radicals who are willing to wait for the frog to boil.

Russia had a population of less than 10% communists when they became a Socialist Union.

Pauline Hanson is supporting the Christian Democratioc Party's position on a 10 year morotorium on Muslim immigration into Australia.

Philo, refer to my original post.

Hello posters, this is my first visit and I see that a controversial topic is being pooh-poohed and taken seriously by two people.

Firstly, Ginx, it is not the case of 'people WILL decide what THEY want'.
Haven't you seen how schools stop students wearing Christian emblems and no-one complains. Yet the cry is 'racist' if a school should dare to try to limit the wearing of Moslem dress etc. Substitute many institutions for 'school' and the story is the same. With the destruction of the old moralistic systems by the UK Labour party, a vacuum existed for someone to fill. That's where the Moslems are edging in. Believe it. I've seen it happen. Do you really think that it couldn't happen here?

Philo's reply to you is 100% spot-on.

Islam is on the move. Anyone who dares to question this in our own land is immediately vilified as an Islamophobe. Does that make the accusers 'Westernphobes' or 'Christainphobes'?

Really, some people can't see the forest for the trees. Don't sit back saying it won't happen. By the time you are convinced otherwise, it will be too late.

I think that it's appropriate that this topic was aired on this date.

The sky is falling arrrrgghh!

Oh come off it guys, schools not permitting the wearing of Christian symbols? That's a new one! Where's the article on that?

So much falsehood used to justify one's position is not a good start.

And Philo, the frog boiling story is a total myth mate, even though it's only an allegory it's not based in reality, just like your religion and ideas I suspect.

Bugsy, so you actually believed I thought Muslims were boiling frogs?

Here's what this discussion looks like from an atheist's perspective.

(And please note, I am only speaking for myself. That's the way atheism works – we all make up our own minds)

As an atheist, I consider myself extremely tolerant of religious factions. I don't ask people to stop believing in whatever they believe in, but at the same time I will not back down when my lack of belief is denigrated.

I don't begrudge any religion the trappings that it feels it needs to feed itself. I accept that it is tough, all that faith.

Nor, even, do I begrudge the charitable status provided to many organized religions, even though this effectively means that I am financing their activities.

I particularly do not get concerned when the various religions build their places of worship. Some of them are quite attractive pieces of architecture, quite a few have been around a very long time (I was recently in a thirteenth century church in France - quite magnificent) and will presumably be around for a good while longer.

Surely, all that we are seeing here is the religious equivalent of penis-envy? His church is bigger than mine, therefore it should not be allowed to be built. There cannot be a religious reason for objecting to it, surely? Or are we seeing a Christian version of the "my religion or no religion" attitude that they affect to despise?

Are they really that intolerant?

Rest easy folks. If people want to worship their deity in their own special way, they will do it whether you like it or not, so objecting to the building of a new place of worship is pretty pointless. Unless you are working on the basis that if they don't have a mosque to go to, they'll gravitate to the nearest church?

Probably not.

But seriously, if I were the security services, and I was suspicious that these places might be used to foment plans for evil deeds, well...

...I think I'd prefer them to be doing so somewhere where I can easily find them.

Wouldn't you?

Being tolerant is not the same as being submissive. That's how these Moslems see those of us who give an inch so that they can take a mile.

No-one here is suggesting that other religions be denied the right to feed themselves but why is it reported that some food companies are making a big thing out of pushing foods inoffensive to Moslems? There exist, now, foods labelled as 'halal' for the genpop.

If only the subject of this thread was about architecture, no-one would be too concerned. It's the use to which these buildings is put.

Why should we tolerate an intolerant religion? They would never reciprocate but only take tolerance as a sign of weakness.

Pericles, you say "I think I'd prefer them to be doing so somewhere where I can easily find them. Wouldn't you?"

Radical muslims will and are planning terror on democratic countries no doubt. It seems you prefer conflict in our country rather than retain them in countries where they have their laws in controll of the state. It is undoubtly the way to introduce civil conflict into democratic nations. Note on another thread the conflict they have with Australian values and law, which they see as secondary to the shari'ah, that must be obeyed; because shari'ah is to them absolute.
Islamic Values or Australian Values? [

Religion and the number of people on this planet are the two scourges we have to tolerate and are the result of 95% of global problems. There won't be peace on earth until we are all coffee coloured and all religion has gone the way of the dinosaurs.

Well, the French do it Philo, but I suspect that frogs are not halal.

I have seen that boiling frog allegory so many times recently on this forum that I am getting really sick of it, especially since it isn't true, metaphorically or literally.

Snake, do you mean latte, long black or short black?

Coffee is diverse. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm not a coffeeist. Celebrate coffee's diversity.

As for tea.......

RACIAL DISCRIMINATION ACT 1975

18C Offensive behaviour because of race, colour or national or
ethnic origin
(1) It is unlawful for a person to do an act, otherwise than in private, if:
(a) the act is reasonably likely, in all the circumstances, to
offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a
group of people; and
(b) the act is done because of the race, colour or national or
ethnic origin of the other person or of some or all of the
people in the group.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), an act is taken not to be done in
private if it:
(a) causes words, sounds, images or writing to be communicated
to the public; or
(b) is done in a public place; or
(c) is done in the sight or hearing of people who are in a public
place.

18c1a and 18c2a

Now..compare this with what the Quran, which is offered for sale in bookshops says about Jews.(race)

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Is this not 'intimidating'.. towards Jews by race ?

Thus, without even going to the RRT2001 this should be enough to prevent the Quran being offered for sale in any public bookshop.

"words, images, sounds or writing"

Yes...No...?

What makes the greater problem....the existence and promotion of the vilification of Jews (and the growth of these values with the demographics of those who adhere to this view)..or.. drawing attention to said vilification?

I don't think you will have much chance of the Poms giving up the p1ss and not eating bacon, 2 of the basic staples of their diet.

Boazy: "Is this not 'intimidating'.. towards Jews by race ?"

Only if you're silly enough to believe in curses. Most of us leave that sort of thing to our kids and their Harry Potter books.

Besides which, the reference to Jews in the quotation is clearly on the basis of religion rather than 'race', as is the reference to Christians.

You seem a bit more muddled than usual at the moment, Boazy.

CJ... 'curse' is one translation. "May Allah destroy them" is another.

Allah is at WAR with them is yet another.

That is where it becomes intimidating. Because Islam is as much a 'state' as a religion. If "Allah is at war" with certain people then...surely it's not difficult to see how this must inevitably connect with the apparatus of state? There are umpteen zillion Quranic verses to support that very thing.

Jews are a 'race' here.. Christians are from any race.

One only has to show:

1/ Islam is a state +religion
2/ The Islamic state fights those who Allah is at war with.
3/ Justify this from the Quran.

and one has made the case.

My view of course in all this.. is TURF OUT THE STUUUUPID LAW (RRT2001)and let people say what they like, within reason. In my view, 'reason' includes stringent criticism of the idiosyncracies and repulsive aspects of any faith, including mine.

I'm not trying to simply 'rabble rouse' as Pericles puts it.. I want THE LAW CHANGED so that we are free. I'm showing the idiocy and discriminatory nature of these laws.

Then why base your entire argument on "RACIAL DISCRIMINATION ACT 1975"? Further, you're on very slippery ground trying to argue the 'race' card here.

Nah. You're just rabble-rousing again, on the flimsiest of evidence as usual. And anyway, the odious 'two Dannys' eventually got off, didn't they?

You just want an unfettered ability for those of your ilk to disseminate their Islamophobic propaganda in the community.

CJ...close...but no cigar.. (which would quickly fume up that little room of yours anyway :)

What I want.. is this.

THE RIGHT... to BE criticized... and to criticize..unfettered by law on valid points of public interest.

The assumption on which the following is based is this:
The expressed and documented view of the MUFTI OF AUSTRALIA Now Sheikh Femhi, that the Quran is the absolute word of Allah, which never changes and which is not open to private interpretation or historical 'contextualization'.

1/ "Institutionalized domestic violence" Quran 4:34

2/ "Institutionalized sexual slavery" Quran 23:5-6

3/ "The behavior of Mohammad" (you know all this by now) from the histories and hadiths. (because he is held up as 'the best of all mankind' which includes his marriage to the 9 yr old)

4/ "The call for destruction of Christians and Jews". (9.30)

5/ "The justification of aggressive war against non muslim states to impose Islamic rule. (but not specifically to directly force conversions) (9:29)

Now.. If someone wants to ripppp into me, my faith, the bible and say "OH the BIBLE is HOMOPHOBIC..abhorrent..cruel... discriminatory against gays, oppresses women"... I don't have the slightest problem with that. They can even try to BAN the bible. (to try that would be the best thing ever for the Church..trust me)

I would simply USE such accusations as a launching pad for a clear statement of the faith in the full confidence that truth and reason will win out in the end. (But Homosexuals will never agree with the content of Romans 1 so all we can do is re-state what the Scriptures teach)

You see, most of Europe is now intimidated by Muslims...(fear of public officials to allow any anti Islamic dissent, but their willingness to allow anti USA/Bush dissent)
Remember '10 teams' ? this is what is happening in UK right now.
http://www.members.aol.com/englandfreedom/index.htm
Personally..I find this distressing, scary and futile because it has an 'ethnic/race' basis.

Boazy: "Remember '10 teams' ? this is what is happening in UK right now.
http://www.members.aol.com/englandfreedom/index.htm
Personally..I find this distressing, scary and futile because it has an 'ethnic/race' basis."

This is a joke, right? This is just a bunch of English frootloops, right? Mind you, I could think of a few potential members for them from this forum.

I particularly like the dress code :)

Really, Boazy - do you believe every crackpot site you find on the Internet?

And what happened to your '10 teams' anyway - did they go the way of the green triangle?

Where there is scaremongering; where there is intolerance; where there is the SLIGHTEST opportunity to drive a wedge.............

........here come de' preacher man!

(Agreed Snake.)

CJ Morgan wrote "http://www.members.aol.com/englandfreedom/index.htm
Personally..I find this distressing, scary and futile because it has an 'ethnic/race' basis."

Are you scared because your race could be a target? If it's futile, why are you scared?
Don't spend the rest of your life hiding under your bed because of an English movement. This movement is a welcome backlash to what the Brits have increasingly suffered over the last few decades. If only the same could happen here, but that won't happen until islamophiles like you have allowed Australia to become like Britain.

Do you want to wait until we need an Armaggedon, a Helter Skelter, a RaHoWa? Nip the problem in the bud.

Mr Hawkmoon is right. Just visit http://newsblaze.com/story/20070909184147nnnn.nb/newsblaze/OPINIONS/Opinions.html to see how many of these 'immigrants' think.
I have first-hand knowledge as I have relatives that think the same way, one is even in 'another country', hoping for 'martyrdom'.

Please, people, realise the threat that is on the horizon.

For God's sake!!

WE ARE NOT BRITAIN; WE ARE AUSTRALIA!!

Will you people for one bliddy nanosecond, consider that your intolerant hatred will breed the same?

Are you TOTALLY incapable of seeing what your part will have been in any conflict?? HELLLOOOOOO.......

Um, Dorian Hawkmoon - it was a quote from Boazy. Personally, unlike the xenophobes, I'm neither frightened of Muslim nor 'Englander' nutters. In the latter case, they seem like a slightly more absurd version of those frootloops who like to dress up in 'mediaeval' clothes and go jousting on weekends.

I like most things about Australia, particularly its diversity. It's the 'whack-a-Mozzie' and ethnic cleansing brigade whose lives seem to be dominated by fear of people who aren't like them.

Dorian..yes it was me who posted that...

I said I'm scared....because it was 'race' based. There is a more noble basis for such a movement..'values based'. The nature of that 'form 4 man cells' movement is in truth connected to ultimate violent conflict. This in itself may be unavoidable, depending on the circumstances. Cromwell being one example.

I consider that from an Australian viewpoint..with many races, including my wifes..being asian.. any emphasis on 'racial' purity, nationalism etc..could endanger my own family and chidren.

Our primary danger is not from other races.. as long as we retain a large anglo/celt/Northern European majority.. only (Like Malaysia) when the racial mix becomes something like 35% Chinese 45% malays (around that) do you get major race riots and racial conflict.
We have already had a 'downpayment' in Sydney with Cronulla, and that from a very small group.. mainly Lebanese Muslims.

Our legitimate target..should always and only be, those who would deny us our freedom, and seek to overturn our democratic institutions.
Sharia law is diametrically opposed to democractic freedom. Islam in my own view is seditious. That applies to any Muslim who holds the Quran to be the literal word of Allah.

'Fight those who do not confess Allah and the last day" etc.. its a clear command..not contextual. (Surah 9:29) The very next verse calls for the destruction of Jews and Christians.. I call that 'hate speech'... it sure is hateful to me.

CJ, PERICLES.. GINX.. BUGSY, ALANPOI.. PLEASE.... please.. EVeryone...

listen to this message by a former Muslim, who is an advisor to Iraq, and fought against the hate speech laws in UK 3 times.
http://www.chbcaudio.org/podpress_trac/web/276/0/04-09-07.mp3

When you get to the part where he describes the repeated rape by Shia Muslims of 3 Christian women in Jordan. open this link, and read verses 5-6 of Surah 23.. to see 'why' they did it.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/023.qmt.html#023.001 (scroll to verse 6)
The girls phoned friends to pray that they might have the strength to committ suicide.

Muslims should not be blamed for the West's own self-destruction. After all, we invented the pernicious ideology of 'multiculturalism' and invited these alien cultures into our nations. We allowed our civilisation to be eroded by fifth columns of non-assimilating immigrant groups. What did our 'intellectual elites' expect?

Britain, and to a lesser extent, Australia aren't the only Western nations to be plagued by the combined menaces of multiculturalism and radical Islam.

The Death of Sweden:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2278

The Islamization of Europe’s Cities:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1183

The Rape of Europe:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1609

It's the Demography, Stupid:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

NO TABBOULEH. NO SUSHI. NUKE ISLAM.

Whatever blows your hair back, CJ.

Lets face it Europe and Britain are basically Islamacized.

The demographics are in Plain Numbers for anyone to see notwithstanding half of Africa packing up thier grass skirts and trying to gain passage to GB. And half of GB trying to move to Australia.

On a recent trip to England, I was horrified at the number and size of the Mosques encountered, every suburb has a mosque.

Islam is a leech on other cultures. It has been thru out history, this is a fact.
The only religion that builds its temples upon the rubble of others.

This country needs to stop it happening hear, get rid of them.

We need to get 'em all!

And by the Grace of God we will.....

What does the MEGA MOSQUE....stand for ?

PAEDOPHILIA ? I was once a defender of MOhammad against the charge "He was a paedophile" but as of today, I've changed to support that view. Muslim commentators have persuaded me.

I used to defend him as follows: "Technically, according to the Victorian crimes act.. he could never be any more than a child abuser"

Now..while this is true, because under the act, the crime is limited to pubescent children. Pre pubecent abuse is paedophilia.

Today, I discovered that:

a) The Quran 65:4
b) High ranking Muslim commentators.

All support the understanding of 65:4 as meaning TO ALLOW SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH PRE-PUBESCENT GIRLS. (in marriage)

I recommend any try hard 'Oh..you Islamaphobe' propogandists, to check this web site and make SURE you reference the MUSLIM commentators.. and verify every syllable of this shocking truth.

http://islamreview.blogspot.com/2006/01/aisha-ayesha-child-wife-of-muhammad.html

These are one commentator's words

QUOTE
"Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also pemssible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible."
UNQOUTE

Who said that ? some obscure, self styled guru from the Middle ages?
No..
This is he: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_Ala_Maududi

"considered an influential Islamic thinker of the 20th century."

Then..there is this. Paradise..
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=36&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes

You have to read this to believe it.. I won't post it.

CJ... PERICLES.. Does "Islam" according to it's own sources and commentators support Paedophilia or not ? Its a simple question.
Before you criticize me.. ANSWER IT..with a 'yes'...or 'no' and defend your answer.

Poor old Boazy - bestiality one day, paedophilia the next.

Is there any end to the projection of his sexual fantasies?

Ginx, I know that ‘WE ARE NOT BRITAIN; WE ARE AUSTRALIA’. I also know that most of what happens in Britain happens here a few years later. We are very similar (in fact, it almost appears that we are still a colony). Britain’s multiculturalism spilled over to here and, even though we can see their problems, most people will stick their head in the sand as we go down the same road. Also, you wrote ‘your intolerant hatred will breed the same’. Don’t you know that they already hate us? They have hated us for most of the previous century (and before that), even in the days when the western nations trusted most Moslem nations and gave numerous types of aid, these same nations were seething with resentment against the ‘infidel’. As for our part in a conflict, would you deny us the right of defence?

David, the movement is, indeed, race-based. So is the threat that it was created to combat. What I find strange is that you state that you are ‘scared....because it was 'race' based’ yet in the same post you advocate retaining a ‘a large anglo/celt/Northern European majority’ for Australia.
You have to decide what side of the fence you are going to sit on.

DH; don't talk down to me, there's a good chap.

We are NOT 'still a colony', something you offer up I suspect to justify what happens there;-happens here.

Perhaps you are hoping for this? Perhaps because of the symbiotic and inevitable stultifying relationship between Blair/(who?)Howard/ and let's not forget Bush.

I note you use of the terminology us/them? A clear mindset. Who will be next I wonder?

Is this what you joined OLO for?

Gin x, I have reviewed my post and I don’t see how you think I was talking down to you. I wasn’t even writing down to you. Maybe you have an inferiority complex that makes you think that anyone who disagrees with you or questions your views is taking a swipe at you. I never wrote that we were still a colony, my exact words were ‘in fact, it almost appears that we are still a colony’. That’s certainly the case.

As for my use of ‘us/them’ terminology, are you the only one allowed to use it without comment? Refer your post from Tuesday, 11 September 2007 10:20:07 AM.

Peddling crap? Call that an objective comment? If you haven’t a reasonable, sensible reply to my views you should stay off-line. This is 'On Line Opinion' not 'On Line Nyah Nyah I don't Like What You Think So I'm Going To Spit The Dummy'.

Boaz, how many times do I have to repeat myself.

>>PERICLES.. Does "Islam" according to it's own sources and commentators support Paedophilia or not ? Its a simple question. Before you criticize me.. ANSWER IT..with a 'yes'...or 'no' and defend your answer.<<

Let me say it one more time.

I am an atheist, Boaz.

I no more believe that Islam is based in reality than Christianity. To me, they are fundamentally alike.

They each have a massive following of ordinary people who - cheerfully and harmlessly - choose to believe in a God. And a tiny minority who trade on the fears and gullibility of ordinary people to create fear and loathing of "the other".

Guess which category I place you in?

My answer to your highly loaded question is therefore "I haven't a clue".

But the reality of the matter is that it is only of concern to the general public when laws are broken. In other words, acts are committed that are unlawful.

And even if these acts are committed in the name of, or under the protection of, or using the influence of, a particular religion, then it is still the act itself that should be condemned.

Which is, to me, where the Crusades come into the picture. Blind belief in a particular religion caused the massacre of "unbelievers". How can that be justified?

Which is also where paedophile priests become relevant. Using the trust that is placed in their profession, they ruined the lives of many. How can that be explained away?

Which is where the stolen generation comes in. Using the power allocated to them by a misguided society, also trusting in the "rightness" of their beliefs, they split families and brought fear and loneliness to thousands. How can that be a caring, loving way to conduct a life?

It's the deeds that speak, Boaz. Far, far louder than the words.

It is your fear that misleads you. Otherwise you would understand.

Furthermore, Gin x, as you are anti-colonial, I am sure that you wouldn't want us to become a Moslem colony, eh? A lot of posters here would seem to like that idea.

To Gin x

Dorian Hawkmoon has hit the nail on the head regarding your little complex. He wasn’t ‘talking?’ down to you, just making a fair reply. No need to get your knickers in a twist if someone doesn’t agree with you. I don’t agree 100% with him either but I think that we should be mature about it. Childish behaviour doesn’t do this site any good.

People are posting here to be reasonable and put their various views across. If you must post, please be relevant to the subject and, if you disagree, state why you do so. And, please, no more silly little accusations. Not everyone will agree with you…get over it!

Now for the serious posters, Pericles, I agree with your view that Christianity and Islam are fundamentally alike and that neither are based in reality. It’s just that Islam appears to be on an expansion/conquest stage and will never give up until the whole human race is Islamist, or they (Islamists) suffer utter defeat. When younger, I was almost brainwashed to support them. My relatives still do so.

I guess this is where we disagree:

>>Islam appears to be on an expansion/conquest stage and will never give up until the whole human race is Islamist, or they (Islamists) suffer utter defeat<<

I don't see any evidence for this.

I do see some small cadres and factions practising a form of random terrorism, their activities fed and watered by the hatred aimed at them by fearful individuals, other religious groups, and nations. These are dangerous at an individual level, as were the IRA in their bombing campaigns, but are not threatening at a global level.

I also see self-proclaimed "freedom fighters", fighting for what they believe is right within their own homelands, also performing acts of random and indiscriminate terrorism against their perceived enemies, some of whom they see as "forces of occupation", some of whom are their own countrymen whom they believe are aiding and abetting the "forces of occupation". These are dangerous - the Tamil Tigers, ETA etc. are some other examples - but confined to their own countries. Their raison d'être is domestic, first and last.

I totally reject that what we are seeing is a coordinated attack on the non-Islamic world. I do accept there are individuals and groups who make a great deal of extremely unpleasant noise about their personal aspirations for a totally Islamic world, but these people are i) a tiny minority, ii) highly visible (and therefore controllable) and iii) relatively powerless.

As for the idea that we will all somehow fall under their magical religious spell, that I totally reject. On the basis that most people are too sensible to sign up for a religion - any religion - en masse, particularly if it involves conquering the world.

Too much effort. Too much responsibility. Too much hassle.

Pericles the Islamophile.

Open your eyes mate, Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. Muslims are the biggest breeders on the planet

Our populations are going in reverse, ageing like never before in history. And still you have no problem with the bring in every year of 10's of 1000's of them. Your off your heads.

Muslims will have it all handed to them on a platter by dingbats like you and CJ, your tolerance of the intolerant is intolorabley bloody stupid but at least it gives a nice fuzzy feeling in the cockles of your heart..Selfish ideals.

What will happen one fine day when Sharia is implemented after the building of a super dome type mosque. 6 homosexuals will be trotted out to be hung for thier crimes against Allah. It wont happen overnight but rest assured happen it will.

This happens in Saudi Arabia by the way. Anyone remember Anwah Ibrahim in Malaysia, 6 years for sodomy.

And then yoy will all say oh crap, what did we do wrong?

Too late..

Say No to Tabouleah

Well now....; so we are a little upset are we?

Let me continue the trend set in both your posts. (Choochykins you could have been original at the very least!)

Dorkian Morkhood; you referred to my post 11/9-10.20. Take a closer look. Could you not grasp what I was getting at? No; of course you couldn't. It was EXACTLY what I was trying to get across to you.

Choochykins; a poster who tells me not to 'get my knickers in a knot'..., then in the next sentence talks about the need for maturity!...AND 'childish behaviour doesn't do this site any good'!!

No of course not eh? Choochy. An interesting double act.

Furthermore Dork; I expect Australians to be what they want to be. EACH individual can choose for themselves what they wish to believe in, and don't need you or I to decide what that will be.

Above all else I want the hate and mistrust to cease. As a human race we are always picking on someone.

You two have got stroppy because I dislike your intolerant message.

Get over it!

SCOTTY: "your tolerance of the intolerant is intolorabley (sic) bloody stupid"

OK, I get it - you're a comedian, right?

If only you were - but I suspect you're miserably unaware of how funny you are.

It possibly is "intolorabley bloody stupid" to tolerate intolerant paranoiacs like you, but I do. At the very least, when I'm not shaking my head I'm usually chuckling quietly (in a schadenfreude kinda way).

"Say No to Tabouleah"

Priceless!

Wellll Perilous.. you ducked that one.. avoided it totally.

I gave you chapter, verse, commentator.. clear as a gong from Big Ben..and STILL you deny the undeniable.

Lets try the inductive method.

Facts: (not interpretations of them..but bare raw facts)

1/ Paedophilia is sexual relations with pre-pubescent children.
2/ Surah 65 of the Quran is the specific chapter on the subject of divorce. (You could liken it to the 10 commandments.)

3/ The 4th verse of that surah, states... that young pre menstrual children can be 'divorced' and have a waiting period of 3 months before they can remarry.

4/ The 'waiting' period is to determine if they are pregnant.(Implied)

5/ Islamic scholars of high repute clearly state that this verse suggests/authorizes/allows/permits sexual relations with pre-menstrual female children.

P..if you cannot see that this is 'Islam from its own sources and commentators allows Paedophilia' then.. please go and re educate yourself on the meaning of words and structure of language.

I appreciate that you are only interested in opposing 'me' rather than truth as it stands.. thats ok..I forgive you :) but in the interests of our community, please don't deny what is undeniable and abundantly clear.

By all means deny things when "I" alone make a claim about some Quranic verse which I 'bend' to suit my 'Islamophobic agenda' but when it comes from the mouths and pens of respected Muslims and the Quran.... what more is there to say ?

Readers can see 'irrational denial' when they see it :) Don't make urself look more of a bigot and dill on this issue than you already have.

You say "I don't have a clue"..I disagree..you DO have a clue, you know it.. but just don't want to admit it here.

DORIAN...just to clarify mate... I know where I stand.. and its the 'values' based position.

The problem we face from Islamofascists is values based. They themselves come from many racial backgrounds. The problem is not their race, but their beliefs.

I included the broad ethnic components of modern Australia, to be as inclusive as possible. But I would also include the minor ethnic components too.. Asian, Mediteranian, African and Islander.
I've lived a lot in cross cultural situations and I know its not only possible to have great cross cultural friendships.. its a thorough joy.

The 'values' differences among non Muslims are minor compared to the great gulf between Islam and 'others'....

Hope this is clear.
cheers
BD

Scotty sums it up:

>>Pericles the Islamophile<<

Scotty, this simply says "if you're not one of us, you must be one of them".

Has it not occurred to you that I would react exactly the same way if Muslims wrote such garbage about Christians? Because I can assure you, I would.

And Boaz, dear Boaz.

>>Wellll Perilous.. you ducked that one.. avoided it totally. I gave you chapter, verse, commentator.. clear as a gong from Big Ben..and STILL you deny the undeniable.<<

You may recall that I have had a few discussions with you in the past about your interpretation of biblical stuff? Well, the same goes for all documents purporting to be from impeccable holy sources - I have absolutely no faith in them, which means I don't believe what they say, which means when you quote stuff at me from any of them, it is total and utter gibberish to me.

I don't believe in God, remember, so "holy texts" might as well be Harry Potter stories for all I'm concerned.

What it means here is that however long you blather on about this chapter or that verse, it has as much impact on me as reports of a day at Hogwarts.

My mantra is, as you should very well know by now, is "by their deeds shall ye know them". This applies equally to Islamic suicide bombers as it does to crusaders or paedophilic priests.

To me, there is no excuse, ever, for hiding behind religious beliefs in order to commit atrocities.

>>I appreciate that you are only interested in opposing 'me' rather than truth as it stands..<<

The "truth" you talk about here is in fact simply your opinion, all gussied up with a few quotes. It looks important and all, but is only another expression of your fears and phobias.

Most of the rest of us are able to handle the fact that there are some nutters about. We don't like it much either, but we deal with it.

It might help your state of mind if you learned to do the same.

Scotty, you're falling into some very bad habits. One of them is to be mendaciously selective in your quotes.

>>Pericles calls terrorists "freedom fighters"<<

No, Scotty, I didn't call them "freedom fighters", I called them "self-proclaimed 'freedom fighters'", which is an entirely different animal. And I went on to condemn their "acts of random and indiscriminate terrorism".

If that was difficult for you to follow, and the importance of the words "self-proclaimed" remains a mystery, then I apologize for not using shorter words or simpler concepts.

>>Yeh righto Pericles, choose a side, because the Muslims wont give a crap and youll be viewed as a traitor among your own<<

Only, Scotty, if you happen to believe in the theory that we are about to be overrun by the twentyfirst-century equivalent of the "Yellow Peril", that has exercised xenophobes for 150 years. Check it out - over the years our attitude towards "the x peril" changes - not as a result of any change on their part, but on ours.

I feel confident that the highly intelligent and decent men and women of Australia will survive this particular piece of scaremongering as well.

>>Pericles compares Osama's band of merry terrorists to the IRA..<<

Wrong again. This is becoming a habit.

I referred to the impact of terrorist activities - "[t]hese are dangerous at an individual level, as were the IRA in their bombing campaigns" - not the organizations that perpetrated them. Whether you are blown up in an English pub by a militant Mick or in a Bali nightclub by an irate Islamist, the effect on your skeletal structure is mighty similar.

But neither threatens world order.

It might be an idea to sharpen up your reading skills, Scotty, before allowing your trembling fingers near a keyboard.

Pericles, I’m afraid that it’s not just a matter of us disagreeing, ‘>>Islam appears to be on an expansion/conquest stage and will never give up until the whole human race is Islamist, or they (Islamists) suffer utter defeat<<

I don't see any evidence for this.

Believe me, I have seen the evidence. When younger I lived and breathed the evidence.

You are an atheist, I believe, but what were you before that? Possibly you were a Christian who realised that there is nothing out there. Well, I was a Moslem before becoming atheist. That doesn’t negate the fact that I was amongst those people (and part of them) that this thread is exposing. My own father disowned me for joining an ‘Infidel’s armed forces’.

I enjoy the western way of life and love the freedoms that we have here. I do not want some mediaeval culture destroying that.

The ‘small cadres and factions’ that you see are but the tip of the iceberg. There are whole families of ‘sleepers’ who profess to be fitting in with us, but are hoping for the day when they, too, can rise against the Infidel.

How can a killer of innocent children be a ‘freedom fighter’?

‘As for the idea that we will all somehow fall under their magical religious spell, that I totally reject. On the basis that most people are too sensible to sign up for a religion - any religion - en masse, particularly if it involves conquering the world.’ I only wish this were true. If the worst happened, many people would be too afraid of the consequences and would pretend to adopt an enforced religion. Similar to enforced adoption of Communism in the USSR and Eastern Europe.

At least no-one here can attack me as a racist – how can I make racist comments on my own blood and kin?

Hello Everybody

Many comments here of opposing views are correct.

That is what makes this topic truly difficult and the answers even more so.
It’s not easy to get the balance right but for Australia’s sake we have to.

In order to do that we must have the right Muslim Leaders who respect Australia first and want only peace love and a chance to improve on their lives.
We can’t afford to get it wrong.

May I suggest with respect to everybody we should be talking to as many Muslim people as possibly not only speaking talking about them.

OriginalAussie has pointed out in his or her own way that Australia has many religions.
Of course its true Australia is basically a Christian country and that ought not to change.

It is our history and our heritage.

Noted Author Robert Morey many years ago researched that in England the situation was amazing.

There were more Arab Muslims in England than Methodgelical Christians.

Funded by the vast resources of Arab oil money the Muslim faith were buying abandoned Anglican churches and turning them into mosques at such a rate that some Muslims claimed England would be the first Muslim European country.

A recent article in the Muslim news by Dr Ameer Ali Vice President of AFIC outlines some concerns with AFIC leadership in Australia.

PALE has recently felt the need to walk away after many from a MOU with AFIC and share some concerns also.

Australia by compassion to England is growing and shaping up to be a leader about the celebrate its tenth Anniversary with AFIC.

Every organization has its challenges.
What it all boils down to is a man or woman is only as good as their hand shake no matter the language.

There in lies some of the answers as to how we approach this.
I will leave this link to view Dr Ali making a comment on the cruel live export trade some time ago.
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Pardon me if I beleive we can all live together with peace and love without loosing our own "Proud Identidty "

Pericles, ‘You obviously have experience that few others on this forum have. It could be valuable if you were to share it’.

I don’t know how much I would have to detail to have to have you, or anyone else here, believe me as there are so many people who just don’t want to accept the way that it is. Also, the more detail I give, the more chance there is that someone could identify me. I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. I want to be more specific but am afraid of the comeback if I am found out. I will give an outline.

Basically, I was born and brought up in a Moslem family that had emigrated to Europe. My experiences outside of school were purely influenced by Islam and I believed what I was ‘taught’. I was encouraged to criticise Western ways but, if I was in return criticised, to cry ‘racist’. This worked with most of my school teachers and, later, college lecturers to gain their (PC induced) sympathy.

I later met with a European girl who convinced me that the West did not consist of ‘demons’ and ‘infidels’. This was when I dropped out of college and questioned my faith. As I listened to my brothers, sisters, cousins saying how they hated my adopted country and all its people, I realised that our religion was not based on love, but hate. By now I was very dubious about Islam. I even enlisted in the armed forces. That was the last straw for my family. My father says that I am dead and forbids any others to contact me.

I eventually left the army and came to Australia as I had been told that ‘it could not happen here’. I already see the same signs of which I was familiar 16 years ago. I posted here on OLO when I saw the subject as I want this country to wake up.

I've removed a large number of posts from this thread. Some posters were getting unnecessarily aggressive and flaming. If anyone continues with this on this thread after my intervention I will suspend them.

Damn, did I miss a good cat fight?

Watched it coming. A poster took it beyond OLO then the jobbies hit the fan.

I suppose they had to be deleted. Don't know why my post was also deleted. I must have offended someone, somehow.

Anyone visited any Islamic forums?

The ones that I have looked at would never allow and certainly not tolerate the posting of the differing views that are posted on OLO.

That fact says a lot.

Good for you Cuchalainn (sorry about spelling) I can see you chose your freedom over the intense life of a muslim. I have just read a book called Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali her last name she changed so her family would not find her and punish her.... but alas they did.
I can see why the women want to get away from the chains of muslim life ,but the men seem to have one hell of a great life rapeing and murdering and haveing an ego the size of the earth, so to read that you ,a man walked away from this is admirable.
Spread the word ,there is a wonderful life out side Islam. Why stay?

Cuchulainn,

How kind of you to think of us and speak out for pale when clearly you are in fear of reprecussions for just about anything else. Sorry your post got taken down.
You are a kind soul. I have always found so in life that the one who is in the least position to help is the one who tries.

The one who can least afford to donate is the biggest giver.

Perhaps it is because we have to feel the pain ourselves to relate to what others may be experiencing.
I would like you to feel free to contact us anytime you are concerned about anything or just want to talk or any repercussions you may fear about speaking out.

What you described is pretty much normal in many places but I guess it’s hard for people to comprehend that this is the norm until they see and live it for themselves.

Buses with pictures of matters are normal and it’s expected as a duty to hate the west.
Your right about our laws being changed as this influence slowly flows through like a river at the change of the tide.

At each tide change at the mouth of the creek just a little of the old water flows back through. Remember as kids we would always swim in that part because we new some of the old would always creep through.
Some Muslim people In Australia do not want this extreme culture flowing into Australia like that suttle change art the mouth of the river.
We need to form a strong alliance with them to ensure we have the right leaders working together with Australia. I think you may be one those good people. Perhaps this was your calling.
Thank you for speaking out.
www.livexports.com
You can contact me through this site if you ever wish to even just to chat about nothing.
You can trust us.
Blessings to you

Dear Cuchalain...
I certainly commend your bravery in your initial coming out of Islam.. I do know what that can involve..and you graciously shared some of your life with us.

I wonder if you notice the interaction between myself and Pericles ?

It seems you are confirming everything I say, though from an atheist perspective.. so I find it quite astonishing that Pericles would persistently rebuff my attempts to persuade him of what has clearly been your own personal life experience.

You said:
[I already see the same signs of which I was familiar 16 years ago. I posted here on OLO when I saw the subject as I want this country to wake up.]

As for me, I try to show the theological rationale in the Muslim mindset which drives this agenda, and Pericles just dismisses it as 'gibberish' because it is from "Holy Texts" which Pericles does not recognize.

PERICLES.. sometimes ur a prize dill.. the issue is not what YOU believe about other's holy texts, but what THEY believe...

If 'they' believe they should embark on a course of action based on their own holy texts, you should have the genuineness to actually try to fathom 'what' they are basing there views on.... (yes..that is indeed a mild rebuke :)

Chucha.. you have discovered the freedom of the West.. my prayer is that you will at some stage go to the next level of finding true freedom in Christ. You present spiritual situation is quite understandable, so I hope you will continue to provide us with insights such as only you can give.
Cheers

I remain disgusted that an entire community is condemned. Further, I am utterly sickened that one who has lived within the Islamic community seeks to condemn that entire community.

I, like most of you condemn FGM; it is vile. I condemn fundamentalism in ANY belief system. It is obsessive, vindictive and it is cruel.

To that end, it appalls me that those who embrace a principle of decent behaviour; 'goodwill to all men'; show such a lack of goodwill to their fellow human beings unless they embrace the 'one true God'. The epitome of hypocrisy!

It is a disgrace that those who are concerned for the welfare and decent treatment of animals have no problem at all in condemning (or support those who condemn);- the human animals who just happen to be part of a general community that is currently being vilified in its entirety.

You condemn every single man woman and child of this faith. That is outrageous! It is obscene when it comes from one who should know better, that only a small sector of this faith (yes; I did mean a SMALL sector); are bent on destruction. The rest have to wear the consequences.

Has it never occurred to any of you who chant this incessant intolerant mantra that those of the general Islam community who are repeatedly targeted for hate and intolerance; WILL become bitter and marginalized, and ARE likely then to support those who fight the so-called infidel?

That then gives you further grist for your intolerant mill. Where will it end?

I feel heartfelt gratitude that there are members on OLO who continue to speak out against those of you who preach this fear mongering nonsense.

I will continue to do so......., and as you can all see I am able to do so..

The tenet of these last two posts come as no surprise to me.

I take it then that my post will come as no surprise to you?

Boaz, it is nice that you have a new member of your whack-a-mozzie club, but that doesn't change the fundamental wrongness of your campaign to vilify an entire religion based on individual experiences, however unpleasant those experiences might be.

>>PERICLES.. sometimes ur a prize dill.. the issue is not what YOU believe about other's holy texts, but what THEY believe... If 'they' believe they should embark on a course of action based on their own holy texts, you should have the genuineness to actually try to fathom 'what' they are basing there views on<<

I have always accepted, Boaz, that there is a noisy and harmful minority that chooses to support their criminal activities by insisting that they are only following their god's will. These can be, and are in fact, of any religious persuasion, as I have pointed out on numerous occasions. It is only your wilful blindness that attributes this kind of antisocial nastiness to one particular religion, while simultaneously holding your own to be entirely blameless.

I ask you once again, but always with no hope of receiving a coherent response - do you see yourself as part of the solution, or are you in fact yet another facet of the problem that is religious intolerance?

Do you, by your constant references to the evil that you see in the hearts of your religious opponents, see yourself as "guiding them towards the truth", or turning simple resentment into flaming hatred?

I fail to see how you can interpret your own actions as in any way, shape or form helping to enable people to assess the situation rationally. All you are doing is ensuring that the antipathy turns to outright hatred, and that the ensuing holocaust is simply a fulfilment of your prophesy, when it in fact has been caused by you.

Ginx, sorry to repeat a lot of what you have already said, but it is a message that needs to get through somehow, as I think you would agree.

Pericles, those individual experiences of Muslims who choose to hand in their badges and then suffer sharia-style justice at the hands of their Muslim relatives are starting to add up.

Just as it is not a terrorist act to support Jihad (note the peaceful act of Jihad called Da’wah) by Muslims, neither is it a fundamentalist position by Christians to warn against Islam.

The author of “Islam and Terrorism” writes:

“Today we are facing a most dangerous enemy to mankind... They are all reading the same playbook – the Quran. They want nothing less than to control the world and submit it to Islam. They want Islamic authority to be the only form of government in the world.
I do believe the responsibility of every person in the world is to speak out against this type of terrorism – especially the body of Christ.”

You dismiss this as radicalism, a stirring of the pot, rabble-rousing, dangerous, and fundamentalist thus dismissing the warning, from a man who was the imam of a mosque in Egypt, a graduate and teacher at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt. Only one incident of questioning his faith during a lecture led to being kidnapped by the secret police, tortured, stripped of his role, released under the strict supervision of his family after a year in prison, shot at by his father… forcing him to flee.

He continues “I encourage every believer in every part of the world to stand up and pray for Muslims and Jews’ pray for the light of Jesus Christ to shine on them. The battle is not ours; it’s God’s. But we are the children of God. We have to stand in the gap.”

Standing in the gap means doing what your conscience requires of you.

I think it a more likely outcome that one stray google result to BD’s postings from an Australian woman weighing up her options under Islam may help convince her not to pursue that path, than that hatred or violence will ensue.

Mind the gap (or, not).

Pericles,

I share your distaste of those who use Christianity to attack Islam. What they don’t realise is they are different sides of the same coin.

However, you are wrong when you say “.. factions practising a form of RANDOM terrorism, their activities fed … by the HATRED AIMED AT THEM”

1.) These groups have significant support throughout the Muslim World
2.) The attacks are anything but random. Their aim is to separate the moderate Islamic states from the West using a number of means. The first is to commit atrocities which are purposefully designed to invoke retaliation. Through this retaliation they can then point out to prospective recruits the ‘oppression’ of their people. The second is to inflict sufficient casualties on the West, so that combined with their propaganda we will be defeated by our own bleeding heart brigade. They rely on this inbuilt weakness which lefty’s like to pretend is our strength.
3.) Once we can no longer materially assist the moderate Islamic regimes the Islamo-Fascists will attempt to overthrow these gov’ts creating a new caliphate.

This type of Islamic Militancy has very little to do with the policies of the West, directly. It is about power and the domination of the Muslim world through a return of the Caliphate.

Have you forgotten that 9/11, the African embassy bombings, the attack on the USS Cole etc. all preceded any occupation or hatred?

Your comparison with the Tamil tigers etc. is specious. Al Qaeda is not a nationalist body by any stretch of the imagination Al-Qaeda is an international alliance of Sunni terrorist organizations.

I agree it is foolish to suggest that these groups are supported by all Muslims. This is patently not so, and in fact you will find that Iraqi militias are fighting Al Qaeda in Anbar province, Iraq.

There are even fewer supporters of Al Qaeda in Western countries like Australia and Britain. But if even 5% of the population actively supports Al Qaeda that means that in Australia they have 20 to 30,000 sympathisers to hide behind. Unfortunately this figure is much higher in Britain.

Hi there Ginx....

well you articulated your outrage quite extensively there and you did actually hit one nail fair and square in the head.

You portrayed a cycle.. where..

1/ Opponents of Islam expose or call the religion into serious question on a number of levels....

2/ This annoys the radicals.. but also the moderates.

3/ The moderates, now annoyed are more likely to side with the radicals.. everyone in the trenches so to speak.

What you have done in explaining this cycle, is actually outline Islamic history as it was. Once the Arabs became united, other nearby empires (Byzantine, Persian) realized they were a threat because of their political structure.. (Kaliphate) so.. friction.. polarization.. and finally war.

So..you have done a good job of recognizing the socio/historical picture.

The Important Question though "Is criticism of Islam contributing to greater radicalization by marginalizing the moderate/whole community"?

Possibly..but by how much is debatable. World events (Israel/Palestine) are far more weighty.
Also..the radicals seek to influence the moderates.. with threats. I've linked to the Canadian experience b4.

So..complex issue.. many angles.

Remember the TOPIC... its about a MegaMosque..and its influence. Statistics have been provided showing around 60% of UK mosques are run by radicals. This does not concern you ?
2% 3%...no biggy..but 60%...is a matter of serious concern.

I don't know why you vilify Cuchalain... he has 'been there'

Ginx and Pericles...

lets try to actually make some constructive progress here.

Questions.

1/ Given the much more pervasive influence of radical fundamentalism in the UK than in Australia, would you consider the tone and content of we 'Islam bashers' to be out of order if we were there ?

2/ If you do, could you please describe how the UK should handle this problem?

3/ Don't you think the UK has left it a bit late ?

4/ Is there any lesson we can learn from the UK experience which could be implemented into government policy which would reduce the potential for that to happen here?

Bear in mind, they have around 2000 radical Muslims under serious surveillance now.

We have a number on trial... bigger in proportion than the UK demographically.

Your advice is just 'shutup and it will all go away' ? (or.."the police will handle it")

On that last point, I think there is a political responsibility also to create a climate and policy which will promote unity and security.
We cannot have bad policy and consequently overworked police..

Political Responsibility brings it back to 'us'.. we the people :)

1)So..you have done a good job of recognizing the socio/historical picture.

1)So glad I have passed muster, master.

2)I don't know why you vilify Cuchalain... he has 'been there'

2)You didn't suss it did you? Neither did I. But now I have. You clearly have not; and I'm not going to bother to even attempt to enlighten you.

3)lets try to actually make some constructive progress here.

Questions.

3)Whose constructive progress? Questions?? I told you once before..........

4)we 'Islam bashers'

4)You said it...

5)Your advice is just 'shutup and it will all go away' ? (or.."the police will handle it")

5) Really? Where did I say that? You can't resist can you?

Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 20 September 200

Hi Ginx... well...that went nowhere did it ?

I tried...and now I'll try again.

The questions I raise are serious ones.. because I would rather see some kind of consensus based on reality rather than enmity based on dogma..

Now.. you might jump on that (dogma) and suggest that most of what I say is based on that. Ok..fair point in some cases. Where Islam as a faith claims to be the means of salvation, sure..I repudiate that without reservation.

But that isn't the only area of contention or concern. I believe there is a threat to our whole way of life, and that is irrespective of if one is Christian or Atheist. On the 'way of life/freedom' aspect, you should (if ur honest) be able to engage constructively.

Now.. my primary point is that "Islam" is a political system as much as a spiritual one. You're welcome to dispute this, but it should be on the basis of sound evidence and of course, their own dogmatic,scriptural,historical perspective. If 'they' say "The world and all that is in it belongs to Allah and his messenger" and they then interpret this politically and militarily.. then there is a serious case needing to be addressed. (by the Atheist and the Calathumian)

Is that such a hard thing ? Do you see any problem in addressing that issue ? If so, why ?

Now..these are not irresponsible or unfair questions.. so, while 'I' am the one raising them, that should not dissuade you from engaging with them, specially if you are here for serious debate rather than 'Christian bashing' :)

How about a retry on the questions..or.. you can even provide a few of your own (re Islam)... and I'll do my best to participate in an effort to find common ground ?

1)

Good morning BOAZ; how has your day been so far?

Me? Glad you asked...

I have just spent 35 minutes being fed 'musak' by our largest telecommunications (geddit? telephone COMMUNICATions...HA!!). One simple question. Just one. And I have been handballed (more musak) to more hapless frontline staff who have to take the brunt (No, not from me, but their 'quality control' recording WILL show that I have requested that their senior management and 'exertiv's'......well; you know;..where the sun don't shine; that sort of thing..).
I even made it to a nice young man in the Philippines.
Ah! the vagaries of 'customer service'(a'la, "we value your call"), for the late 20th/21st century.

You see BOAZ, the thing is; I am now not the happiest of Vegemite's.
Now;-whilst I think you have achieved the very pinnacle of religious hypocrisy; you don't tend to get really nasty.

Picky, dogmatic, some tacky little digs; and a religious bloodhound who simply will not stop...But not really nasty.

So given that; and though I'm as close to perfect that you're even going to get;...I do have some ( negligible) faults, I will do my damnedest to try to get though to you without being a bad girlie.

I reckon the gizmo thingy will stop me here, so I will thrill you with part deux. Maybe.

2)

I'm very tired. I am so tired of all this.

It staggers me that you believe you can question me like some sort of interrogator, and I will dutifully respond. Sooo..., you set the agenda; I follow and cooperate. Naive. Very naive.

As it stands though; I have answered haven't I? Point by point. But with MY agenda. That does not meet your requirement; ergo: I haven't answered.

I have made my opinion on Islam bashers (your terminology..) so damn clear.

What drives you David BOAZ is your intelligence yes; and your obsessively driven charter that you WILL bring people to YOUR path of true righteousness whether they like it or not.

If your fella exists; you know..; the 'He' fella; AND He is all that you feel He is............; then I guarantee you BOAZ; he would be ashamed of you. ASHAMED!

I am ashamed of the hatred and mistrust of all; - OF ALL - Muslim's.

I KNOW if we continue this hatred we ARE going to cop it. This is not vilification of the Chinese, the Greeks, the Italians; the Vietnamese boat people; and the last victims of hate;- the refugees from wherever. They are refugees; that was enough.

Now we condemn an ENTIRE group; with a religious and philosophical belief that has hundreds of thousands of followers.

...sigh,....people like you are denigrating a tiger that is not sleeping but snarling. 'We' cannot put 'them' in their 'place', like we have done with others. So 'we' get angrier and angrier at 'them', and they return fire.

What can I say that will have any impact on people like you?

Nothing.

Give it up with me BOAZ. You'll lose.

If you start again. I will simply refer you to my previous posts.

Don't waste my time.

Paul.L, I disagree still with your conclusions.

>>you are wrong when you say “.. factions practising a form of RANDOM terrorism, their activities fed … by the HATRED AIMED AT THEM”<<

The acts are pretty random. There is no pattern. There are no clear targets. They seem to be perpetrated by small groups of individuals. They use different means of expressing their hatred of the infidel etc.

I'm not certain what would be a good antonym for "random" in this context, but I'm pretty sure the acts themselves would not fit within it - can you offer one that works?

There is also a massive distance - in terms of what needs to happen in between - between the first statement - "[t]hese groups have significant support throughout the Muslim World" and your conclusion... "the Islamo-Fascists will attempt to overthrow these gov’ts creating a new caliphate."

It assumes that Islam's enemies are throwing away their weapons and lying down to be trodden on - which, if the scale and scope of current anti-terrorist activities is anything to go by, is way off the mark.

I am aware that some shallow-thinkers equate my antipathy towards any outpouring of bigoted anti-Islamic ravings, with Islamophilia. This is of course nonsense. What I do advocate is that we ensure that the laws are clear, and the laws are both upheld and able to be upheld. If we tread this path with resolve, the problem will gradually diminish, and eventually become background noise.

>>Your comparison with the Tamil tigers etc. is specious. Al Qaeda is not a nationalist body...<<

Nor did I suggest that it is. Simply that people fight each other for many reasons, and to be blown up by one faction is no less painful than being blown up by another. It was public vigilance and a consistent application of the law that eventually prevailed over the IRA - their cause did not change. Nor was the religious aspect ultimately relevant in the management of the terrorist activity itself, only solid police work and public revulsion of any and every terrorist act.

Boaz, your record for taking wild assertions and turning them into "facts" is, frankly, legendary.

So: attribution, please, for "Statistics have been provided showing around 60% of UK mosques are run by radicals"

Needless to say, if you a) "can't remember where you saw it", b) found it on the website of a highly dubious source or c) misinterpreted "radical" to fit your agenda, I won't be at all surprised.

Again you avoid my earlier question by attempting a bit of subtle re-phrasing:

>>The Important Question though "Is criticism of Islam contributing to greater radicalization by marginalizing the moderate/whole community"?<<

This presumably yet another attempt to sidestep the simpler, more direct and immediate question, "...is the problem likely to get a) larger or b) smaller, if you keep picking at it like an old scab?"

"Criticism of Islam" is, in itself, a singularly impolite act, especially when conducted with the zeal, malice and lack of balance that are the hallmarks of a Boaz-bash.

There is no doubt in my mind that if you were to meet me at my front door every morning and criticise my choice of footwear, I would eventually change my normal, moderate and tolerant stance, and take a swing at you. I'd consider that - however much you thought that yellow and black co-respondents are an affront to society - you were significantly out of order to go on about it so viciously.

The fact that some people consider religion to be of greater importance than shoes, only underlines my point.

>>Given the much more pervasive influence of radical fundamentalism in the UK than in Australia, would you consider the tone and content of we 'Islam bashers' to be out of order if we were there?<<

Yes I would. I know it is fashionable to believe that the UK has already been overrun by Islam, but this is very far from the case. The problem of rabid anti-Islamic rabble-rousers is equally prevalent, and is equally unwelcome there as it is here.

It is just that over there they have already morphed into neo-fascist political parties.

Pericles,

The attack on the Spanish Railways was the most successful act of terrorism in Europe in a very long time. It resulted in the complete withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq. Do you think that occurred by accident?

The attacks on Shia sites in Iraq, which killed hundreds and directly led to the current low level civil war, were committed by AL Qaeda with the intention of making the country ungovernable.

The assassination of Lebanese MP’s by Syrian backed Hezbollah is directly aimed at defeating the party currently in control by physically reducing their majority. They don’t like the current gov’ts support of the West.

The acts are anything but random. To pretend that they are, suggests an unwillingness to listen to what the terrorists themselves are saying.

The targets are twofold. In the West the Islamo Fascists are targeting the left, not for assassination, but for the necessary societal rupturing which will lead to defeat from within. They are counting on the lefts fierce opposition and are actively propagandising for that market.

In the Islamic world they know they have no chance of help from a soft left. Instead they intend to kill as many of their opponents as they can. As in Lebanon.

If you actually have a look at my quote you will see that I said that the Islamo-Fascists will “TRY” and overthrow the moderate Muslim regimes. I agree that these states will not roll over belly up, but with popular support within the country, and a chastened West no longer prepared to intervene, their task will be a lot easier than it should be. They have every chance of success.

This isn’t about the imminent overthrow of Australia’s secular gov’t by Muslim radicals. That is silly. Its about strategic defeat and the strengthening of the hand of militant Islam. There is NO WAY these problems will go away by themselves.

You seem to believe that the current problems are caused by OUR intolerance of Islam. This is an unsupportable conclusion. 9/11, Bali bombings,7/7, African embassies, USS Cole, all occurred BEFORE any backlash against Islam

Pericles.. you need to keep up.. we discussed the mosques under radical control in another thread. I did get one point incorrect though, here is the story
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480470&in_page_id=1770

600 out of 1350.. more like 44% .... not insignificant.

Now..Ginx... back to you :) I'm not sure what is going on in that head of yours, but I sense a lot of hostility...

You are turning a 'discussion' where various sides to an issue are able to air their thoughts, be supported, rebutted, refuted and so on.
Why is this suddenly 'MYYYYY' agenda ? We are both sharing on thread which has a 'topic'... where we are discussing an important issue of relevance to our futures.

You are very passionate about us not condemning an 'ENTIRE PEOPLE' (Muslims) but why are you not equally passionate about US as the 'entire' people who's values are diametrically opposed to those of Islam ? Something is not gelling here.

If I and others were criticizing National Socialism in 1936 would you be railing against us for 'condemning an entire people' (Germans) ?

This is where you reasoning seems to break down. The only place you can logically go from there is "Oh..but Islam is not at all like or as dangerous as National Socialism" and then, we can debate that..

That's how progress is achieved. Your current position seems to be that you don't see danger in ANYthing..except those like 'me'.

Next thing, if I oppose male domestic violence you will charge me with 'condemning an entire gender..men.

C'mon..give progress a chance :)
I spose if I warn against 'overseas call centres' we would be on the same page ? :)

Boazy: "If I and others were criticizing National Socialism in 1936 would you be railing against us for 'condemning an entire people' "

I think that if you and the other Islamophobic rabble-rousers had been around in 1936, you would have been "criticizing" the Jews rather than the Nazis. Your hateful rants have far more in common with Nazi propaganda than you will acknowledge, to your very great shame.

This is, of course, why you attract ridicule from others who have witnessed your utter intransigence to reasonable argument. You're a lost cause, Boazy.

Sieg Heil!

BOZO,

"I have made my opinion on Islam bashers (your terminology..) so damn clear.

What drives you David BOAZ is your intelligence yes; and your obsessively driven charter that you WILL bring people to YOUR path of true righteousness whether they like it or not.

If your fella exists; you know..; the 'He' fella; AND He is all that you feel He is............; then I guarantee you BOAZ; he would be ashamed of you. ASHAMED!"

____________________________________

"Ginx, sorry to repeat a lot of what you have already said, but it is a message that needs to get through somehow, as I think you would agree."
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 20 September 2007 1:54:04 PM

Sorry Pericles, I meant to respond to this.

Agreed kiddo. And I'm not going to stop until it stops. (In for the long haul...!)

Well there you go.. again.. CJ... GINX.. failing to even consider a position on its merits, but attacking 'the man' in boringly predictable manner..

When you actually address the issues raised.. I'll stop asking the questions.. because then I'll know that people are actualling 'thinking' rather than simple 'mindless emotional reaction'

CJ tries to deflect reasonable discussion by using 'Jews' as a bait.. then his signature outburst "Seig Heil".... all of which are indicative of lack of argument, fact, understanding and willingness to engage on the issue.

The SIMPLEST way to reduce my own sense of urgency on such things, is to actually agree with me :) but of course.. that was said in jest.. no.. seriously now..

1/
Regarding the UK situation.. if 44% of the mosques are controlled by a radical sect which openly condemns Western values, and has all the hallmarks of a totalitarian, barbaric, compassionless, rule of 'Allah'
.... is it not 'reasonable' to be concerned about this, and

2/
Learn from their situation, (In Australia)and seek ways of applying those lessons to government policy on:
a) Immigration
b) Immigrant resettlement
c) Multi-culturalism
d) Citizenship/Values training in Education.

SUCH that... we decrease rather than increase our exposure to a similar situation?

Now.. its a 'yes'...with reasons.. 'no' with reasons.. or.. a bit of both.. with explanation/reasons.
This is where responsible, caring, responsible, thinking people stand.. on ISSUES... rather than 'Seig Heil' or.. 'repeat/repeat/repeat'.....

David
you might bellys thread on skilled labour interesting.
`Some Muslim groups` have an agenda to take over yes.

Its knowing with people to support and which not to is the real key to success.

If we dont spend more time undestanding the difference between these people you are right there will be problems here as well.

Soon I will start a thread to discuss what problems we are facing here in Australia and why they are so important to us to kerb before they start.

Dr Ali the X President of AFIC who originally signed pales MOU putout a story in the Muslims times a few weeks ago.

We have agreed I will introduce a thread or write and article in which he is happy to participate.

We hold serious concerns with the integrity of some of the new heads of AFIC.

In fact we have walked away with great dissapointment and a feeling of betrayal.

It is vital that AFIC leaders make every effort to be part of projects outside just Muslim interests and carry through with long standing agreements to work united with all Australians.

Very much in the spot light will be a clear definal by some to go against the grain of our most basic laws by pre stunning Animals before Slaughter.

The Federal government are hold to a re view and are under being pushed to turn Australia into a Ritual Slaughter country which is of course really cruel.

This will mean Australia will be under Islamic extrenme law make no mistake about it.

Muslims have long excepted pre stunning of Halal Slaughter `except the extreme ones.

This has far reaching ramifications not only animal cruelty although I will addmiit its our first concern.

There ARE other Muslim leaders who oppse this and want to only pre stun.
In our opinion we would encourage the newly elected preident of AFIC Ikabel Patel to stand down. Our Governments must NOT agree to this.

Mean time David I will email you Dr Ali`s report from the Muslim times for you to read.

Thanx Pale... looking forward to the thread.
cheers

David
Sorry for the delay in the thread. Metting next week so hopefully soon after that.

Where has everybody gone?

David
That was meeting of course- sorry.
Just out of interest you would be big on family first wouldnt you?

Hi Pale...
sorry.. snowed under with work at the moment:)

I saw the material you sent..thanx...

On FF..hmm.. I am kinda big on them to the extent that they represent values which I can identify with. I find them a bit further out front on this than say the CDP (Nile group) which is a bittt too 'English' for me.

I'll probably support them at the federal election.. I might have to offer my presense as 'protective service' :) where they field a candidate. Last election saw one of them get bashed.

I'll check out belly's thread now..
cheers

David
On Family First. We contacted them when they first formed. No reply. Then two days afther Steve Fielding was and elected several years ago.
Finally got a meeting with him last year re live exports and Gods responsibilty to Animals
There was myself the CEO RSPCA QLD and a head Minister of a Catholic Church who has spent time in ME.
I will post the letter he wrote after our meeting.
Sorry Boazie but I reckon I would have to put him and his party last.
They dont have an Animal Welfare Policy and they have less interest in my opinion.
How can anybody say they are a person who follows God and turns their back on such uttter cruelty.
You know what.
The Minister who met with him who told him he spent a lot of time in the Middle East WOULD make a good leader.
As they say- A few good men and Steve Fielding is NOT one of them.
SHAME