With no end in sight to the war, and with millions suffering because of it I would suggest that Australia along with others, including America and its NATO allies, immediately launch a humanitarian program to resettle Ukrainian refugees displaced by the war. It would not be unreasonable for a wealthy country like Australia to take in one million people.

Australia along with America and others, should also be offering the Uyghur people of China priority refugee status for resettlement here and elsewhere. It is not unreasonable for Australia to aim for a population of 30 million in the short term built on a program of resettlement of displaced and persecuted people. This is a small price to pay for our on going commitment to humanitarian aid.

I believe we have enough trouble housing & supporting the population we have now. All immigration should stop.

However if we are to be stupid enough to bring in more people, Ukrainian refugees would make very good citizens, looking for work & safety not welfare as are too meany imports.

But the Uyghur people of China, no way. They, like most Chinese, are far too industrious for us. A million of them would damn soon own everything leaving us to work for them. The laid back Ozzie could never compete with such people

Dear Paul,

Yet another government program?

Yes the people of this fortunate continent ought to help these refugees, but not the Australian "government" - if only they stepped out of the way and stopped imposing themselves in deciding who is allowed to come here and who isn't.

Is there anything on how long someone can claim refugee status ? If someone escapes would it not be in the first country they step on that their refugee status is no longer valid ? Yes, they're very likely financially in dire need but safety wise they're no longer in danger.
I'm astounded every time I see an interview with so-called refugees in nice homes & on generous welfare even after years in the new country.
Are they still deemed refugees ? is there any requirement similar to a legal immigrant to actively seek employment or can the claim of being a refugee be extended for some time ?
When do they officially change from refugee to economic refugee migrant ?
We're all aware what our responsibilities are regarding refugees but what about their responsibilities to this Nation ?
Someone in the know please comment !

Hi Paul,

What's our current yearly immigration intake - 200K people?

If we reduced the amount of people from other countries and focused solely on Ukrainian's (and Uyghur's) while they're currently trapped in a warzone I guess that's ok, but I'm not sure I agree that we should increase our intake.

Also, in order to hold that new immigration position above, (a switch to more of the intake being Ukrainian (and Uyghur) I'd argue that we must stop doing things that support a continuation of the war.
- That means no more weapons or other military aid, no more training Ukrainians for war, and further, we must promote a position in support of a negotiated settlement immediately.

Take note that holding this position would infuriate the US, but it might reduce the level of support for further conflict and promote peace talks.

We can give them a safe place to live for themselves and their family, perhaps a job for some and benefits for others, (many being women with kids) but they're not allowed to stir up any trouble with China or Russia.
- They just get the right to live in peace and safety, and are not to be used for activism or pro-democracy movements.

The US goes to war anywhere on the planet at the drop of a hat claiming national interests with complete and absolute impunity.
I don't see why Russia is not permitted to defend its own Russian speaking speaking in an area which has historically been Russian for hundreds of years, when it has been warning of this situation for well over a decade.

US thinks it can do whatever it wants, wherever it wants, whenever it wants, but that no-one else is allowed to have national interests too.

I support the Russian side, but I'm not heartless and am willing to accommodate people in genuine need.

And we should probably still help some other genuine refugees but no more than we already do.

- This position is in line with what our country can provide, not in line with what others want.

[Cont.]
Any more than our current intake, and I support Yuyutsu's position.
- Let wealthier private citizens house, feed and cover the schooling, health and other living expenses of these extra people, if they're willing to.

But they don't gain automatic citizenship.
- If they prove themselves to be good decent people and don't cause any trouble, then they either go home to Ukraine after the war is over, or they can apply for citizenship at that time.
If they do cause trouble, then their right to apply for citizenship at the end of the conflict is revoked.
They must abide by our legal system or face the same penalties as we otherwise would.
- But sponsors must pay all the legal costs, and the cost of imprisonment if warranted.

Hi AC,

You've hit the nail on the head; "I'd argue that we must stop doing things that support a continuation of the war." AS a pacifist I totally agree. One of the consequences of war is the creation of refugees, often in huge numbers, the war in Ukraine is no exception, as is the pseudo war we are having with China. Australia as a protagonist in the Ukrainian and China wars has a respectability to those refugees we help create. I was expecting our forum pro war brigade to jump on here with a; "To right Paul, we should be taking as many war refugees as possible!". Does it surprise you that the pro war brigade are all for fighting foreign wars, providing there is no impact on themselves?

I can still picture those horrible images of American transport planes taking off from Kabul with poor Afghan collaborators hanging from the outside of the plane, then dropping to their deaths like dags off a sheep's arse. Oh well said Uncle Sam, they are of no consequence to us, they've outlived their usefulness.

As you know, I've always been completely, 100% in favour of massive immigration inflows. No really, I have. :)

But this time I just can't do it. You see, its all about The Environment (capitalisation deliberate). Our government and the ABC (neither of whom would ever consider uttering a lie) have told us that, in order to save the world, we have to cut total emissions by 43% by 2030 (or was it 30% by 2043??) and reach the fabled land of net-zero by 2050.

The question is, how can we do that if we keep adding new emitters? Each new emitter would create 17 tons of CO2 per year. So an extra million would create 17 million tons. That would mean people like Paul would need to cut back on their constant hot-air output by 20% just as an offset and we all know that ain't gunna happen.

Just think of the Barrier Reef which will all die off 20 years from next Tuesday week unless we get to net-zero. I literally weep tears of despair each time a new arrival comes to our shores. All I can think about is how many coral polyps are going to die (and death is forever!!) due to the emissions from each of these new arrivals.

So, as much as I'd love to take in new arrivals, we just can't do it. It's for the good of the planet, donchayaknow.

Of coarse, we could do what people like Paul etc do and just treat each problem as completely unrelated to all others. You know, like calling for more immigration and then blaming the Tories for all the extra emissions. T'was always thus.

I see that AC is still calling for the aggressors in this war to be rewarded with a peace that gives them what they initially craved but can't get militarily. Rewarding aggression is, by some sort of warped thinking, the path to world peace. Go figure!!

And Paul can't break the habit of a lifetime. The USSR has been gone for 30 years, but Paul still leaps to the defence of mother Russia whenever called upon. He calls it the desire for peace but we know that all peace movements were funded by Comintern and, rather than peace, fought for easy communist victories. Peace is achieved, in this warped thinking, by constantly surrendering.

mhaze,

Claiming I'm a communist once again, I feel free to claim you are a Nazi sympathiser, as demonstrated by your sycophantic devotion to Trumpism. You have supported every American war of aggression since they kicked the crap out of the Indians starting 250 years ago, I am being too kind. Should this war drag on, and Trump gets re-elected, Trump with end it with favourable terms for Putin's Russia, like renaming Ukraine, Putinland, he owes Vlad that much for getting him elected in 2016. Poor old Volo Zelenskyy should he be still around, and not been disposed of by American agents, Volo will protest; "MR TRUMP WHAT ABOUT UKRAINE AND ME!" The Donald will send him a sympathetic text message; "GET STUFFED BOZO", then cut his phone off.

This'll go over your head Paul, but Trump was one of a handful of presidents who never started a war.

This'll go over your head Paul, but several US investigations have demonstrated that Putin did nothing to help Trump get elected.

This'll go over your head Paul, but, had Trump still been president, this war on the Russian Steppes would not have occurred.

This'll go over your head Paul, but, there was nothing in the Trump presidency that was the slightest bit helpful to Putin. Indeed the very opposite.

This'll go over your head Paul, but you haven't and can't find any evidence of me leaping to the defence of any Nazis or Nazi policies. In fact, since the Nazis were socialists, it would be completely out of character for me to leap to their defence. You and communism on the other hand....

(Must have been a sad day in the Paul household on Sunday...the 70th anniversary of the death of uncle Joe).

Charity begins at home…house our own homeless.

That war is a case of taunters & retaliators !

Paul1405- Probably thinks that Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn deserved to go to the Gulag's for eight years because he was an elitist. Trotsky did think that Stalin was too soft- and Paul1405 from his views probably agrees with him- maybe Paul1405's friends are similar to Trotsky's and he'll cease to be a problem for stability. Let us pray that time will solve the evil- while we work conscientiously to be peaceful between communities. Sadly war is sometimes necessary for peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn

The case studies in Communist Accelerationism are fascinating.

Kudos mhaze.

Hey mhaze,
"This'll go over your head Paul, but, had Trump still been president, this war on the Russian Steppes would not have occurred."

- I'm not sure I agree with that.
Western political elites were pushing to militarise Ukraine with an aim to take back Crimea long before Trump entered office.
He may have been much more likely to push forward a collective security agreement for Russia and Europe, but I'm not sure he could've changed the trajectory that was already in place.

"This'll go over your head Paul, but, there was nothing in the Trump presidency that was the slightest bit helpful to Putin. Indeed the very opposite."

- Trump was far more friendly to Putin than Hillary would've been.

"I see that AC is still calling for the aggressors in this war to be rewarded with a peace that gives them what they initially craved but can't get militarily."
"This'll go over your head Paul, but you haven't and can't find any evidence of me leaping to the defence of any Nazis or Nazi policies."

- You seem to be supportive of Ukrainian nationalist NAZI's of Right Sector and Svoboda, that the US used to overthrow the country and their influence and leanings in the Kiev regime right now, you silly fool.
Maybe you should go join Azov Lol.

[Cont]
"I see that AC is still calling for the aggressors in this war to be rewarded with a peace that gives them what they initially craved but can't get militarily."

Lol, keep the war going then Russia will just take more.
- But more innocent people will die for lines on a map, and I can't support that in good conscience.

Canem Malum, just for you;

The commies are coming to take me away,
Haha, they´re coming to take me away,
Ho ho, hee hee, ha ha,
To the funny gulag
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I´ll be happy to see
Those nice young men
In their clean white coats
And the commies are coming to take me AWAY,
HA HAAAA!

Paul1405,
Please, for the sake of integrity of the Forum, stop your immature antics !

So Indy,

This crud Canem Malum can call me a communist, compare me to Stalin and Trotsky, say I support disgusting imprisonment and torture of the innocent Solzhenitsyn in a gulag. AND you say I shouldn't send him up!

You're as stupid as he is.

AC wrote: "But more innocent people will die for lines on a map, and I can't support that in good conscience."

So your solution to this war about "lines on a map" is to draw different "lines on a map"!! I'm sure you think you've thought this through, but you'd be wrong.

Even a rudimentary historic understanding of international affairs over the centuries shows that failing to oppose aggression simply leads to more aggression. Abjectly giving an aggressor what they demand, simply leads to more demands. You should try to obtain that rudimentary historic understanding.

"You seem to be supportive of Ukrainian nationalist NAZI's of Right Sector and Svoboda, "

Well I've not said a word that would support that notion. When you need to make things up to try to win some points, you've already lost.
Still, it's interesting that you've fallen for the Russian propaganda about Ukrainians being Nazis.

"Trump was far more friendly to Putin than Hillary would've been."

Hilary was instrumental in giving 20% of the US Uranium stock to Putin. Hilary was instrumental in helping Putin ally Iran to evade sanctions and receive cash to further their jihad. Hilary was part of the administration that promised Putin more 'flexibility' in their approach to Russia after those pesky elections were over. Hilary was part of the administration that sat back and let Putin take Crimea. Hilary was part of the administration that encouraged Europe to accept Russia pipelines.
There's that lack of rudimentary historic understanding again.

I shouldn't send him up!
Paul1405,
I'm sure that were you to actually able prove CM wrong he'd accept that going by the dignity he has shown throughout being here.
You on the other hand so very opportunistically resort to unwarranted snide & vindictive come-backs hence my pleading with you cease them.
I think everyone here would agree that you're not a silly person on the contrary. Your problem appears to be something that not even you it is !

Hi mhaze,
"So your solution to this war about "lines on a map" is to draw different "lines on a map"!!"

Well, the new lines on the map have already been drawn Mr democracy.
Russia takes Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions by vote as well as Crimea which voted to join Russia 8 years ago.
I'd settle for an end of the war today based on the current lines of contact if it would stop the bloodshed.
- But what I think doesn't matter because stopping now would only result in further conflict later.

There can be no negotiated settlement, firstly because the West won't allow it, and secondly because the collective the West has shown it had no intention of honouring the Minsk agreements and Russia no longer trusts them at their word.

Russia will continue until it takes all the ethnically Russian areas (draw a line from Kharkiv to Odessa) and as much more to as it needs as a buffer to keep these people safe from long range weapons.

"Well I've not said a word that would support that notion."
If you support Ukraine you support the Banderites.
- And you either support the Banderites or you don't support the Banderites,
It's like binary, ones and zeros - it's one or the other there's nothing in between.

http://www.wsws.org/asset/01c03054-efc0-4f9d-9301-c4dd1851f75b?rendition=image1280
Picture: General Zaluzhnyi with soldiers in an office, decorated with busts and portraits of Stepan Bandera and other Ukrainian fascists.
Russian propaganda? yeah well that's code for an 'incovenient truth'
So have you signed up to Azov yet?

Hillary...
http://time.com/30078/hillary-clinton-vladimir-putin-crimea-2016/
Her job was to take on Putin herself, but Trump won instead and set their entire plan back.
- And what the hell does a gas supply deal between Russia and Germany have to do with anyone else?
Please explain that.

I've opposed the US sponsored coup in Ukraine since 2014.
They created this mess, and I haven't changed my views.

Indy,

That old rubbish, I call you a turd, now prove me wrong! No, the burden of proof is on me to prove you are a turd. You say; "I'm sure that were you to actually able prove CM wrong he'd accept that." Why should I give a stuff about what this crud claims about me, I have to prove nothing, why don't you ask the crud to prove his accusations are true.

The onus of proof always lays with the accuser, not the accursed.

'crud' Lol
- I haven't heard that one in ages

The onus of proof always lays with the accuser, not the accursed.
Paul1405,
Yes and, since you're always the first accuser, start playing more fair !

Indyvidual- I don't hold Paul1405 as a pillar of integrity- so I don't care in a sense what he says about me- he is just demonstrating his integrity. People if you listen to them show us who they are- as does Paul1405. It's my hope that others aren't deceived by him. As Hebrew Communist Saul Alinsky in Rules For Radicals- says ridicule is an effective weapon whether it is true or not- but I try to say something constructive too- also hold your enemy to account for their own principles (implies that you shouldn't necessarily hold yourself to yours if you're "a radical"- because the means justifies the ends- and sometimes it does). You can't change Communists (or those that seem to spout Communist propaganda- synonyms and shorthand)- you can only present a different perspective to those listening.

Hi Canem Malum
"Saul Alinsky in Rules For Radicals"
Did you know that's Hillary Clinton's mentor?
- She wrote her Wellesley College thesis on him I think.

As far as Azov goes- while not an expert- I see them as patriotic nationalists / localists (rather than globalists). Ironically patriotic nationalists often fight against each other when they should work together against the bigger threat of tabula rasa- blank slate nihilistic communism that wants to destroy all cultures in the name of "conspiratorial elitism". I see Putin as a nationalist in a sense that wants the best for Russia- that supports business and private ownership- of course others will see it differently. As Russia transitions towards western style private ownership and dispenses with the vestiges of communist institutions it will find itself in less conflict with the west and their is less need for conflicts like Ukraine. But the west seemingly is becoming archetypically more communist. In a sense Azov's loyalty to Ukraine seems to trump it's loyalty to nationalist / localist principles and this is why it cooperates with the Ukrainian government- or perhaps it's just a pragmatic move.

Hi AC

"Crud" in the vernacular of Aussie slang means a dirty disgusting piece of work.

Canem Malum, you like to slag me off with jibes that I'm a Communist, Paul the Stalinist, Marxist, now I'm the lover of Trotsky as well, etc. Provide your evidence or shut the up. You try to portray yourself as a nob, when in fact you're a crud.

Armchair Critic- I thought you were being ironic- but no- and thanks- see below... explains a lot...

http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-saul-alinsky-letters-155526953.html

http://www.huffpost.com/entry/young-hillary-saul-alinsk_b_11402244

http://redstate.com/diary/delawarewindjammer/2012/01/13/obama-hillary-clinton-saul-alinsky-and-rules-for-radicals-n199376

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/20/hillary-clinton-saul-alinsky-and-lucifer-explained/

http://nonprofitquarterly.org/hillary-clinton-and-saul-alinsky-who-knew/

http://thenewamerican.com/published-letter-from-hillary-clinton-to-saul-alinsky-reveals-close-relationship/

Armchair Critic- I thought you were being ironic- but no- and thanks- see below... explains a lot...

http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-saul-alinsky-letters-155526953.html

http://www.huffpost.com/entry/young-hillary-saul-alinsk_b_11402244

http://redstate.com/diary/delawarewindjammer/2012/01/13/obama-hillary-clinton-saul-alinsky-and-rules-for-radicals-n199376

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/20/hillary-clinton-saul-alinsky-and-lucifer-explained/

http://nonprofitquarterly.org/hillary-clinton-and-saul-alinsky-who-knew/

http://thenewamerican.com/published-letter-from-hillary-clinton-to-saul-alinsky-reveals-close-relationship/

Just for the record- comparing someone to a communist isn't calling someone a communist. Paul1405 could do everything a communist does in theory and still identify as something else I suppose- but if you see Paul1405 supporting certain things- at some point you have to say that it's suspiciously like Communism. I'll leave it up to others if they agree with me.

Many organisations on the contemporary far-left seem to identify with Trotsky as the more authentic form of Communism- despite Trotsky's extremism- and this seemingly informs the wider leftist movement.

Many of the acolytes of these organisations see themselves as the embodiment of goodness and so it's impossible to help them see the contradictions (of for example equality and fairness). While others read both Marx and others like Ayn Rand, etc, etc- those of the far-left seemingly only only read one side.

Paraphrasing Jordan Peterson- based on the fact below it should be obvious to anybody the evils of communism- except those that actually are evil.
"One Hundred Million dead under COMMUNISM!"

Anyway Paul1405 throws enough stones himself. If his feelings are hurt I think it's sort of self inflicted. I don't really care what he calls me because I don't respect his judgement- but that's just my feelings- they shouldn't matter to Paul1405.

Kudos Kid,

Your continual referencing the likes of Arsethrottle and those from the long distant past, are frankly boring in the extreme. Have you ever noticed no one replies to your quotes from Arsethrottle and so on, no one is interested. Posting such might make you feel you are a superior nob, but the reality is you have no original thought processes of your own, just this regurgitating clap trap that is of no interest to anyone on here, otherwise they would reply. You've just posted a dozen links, the reality is your links, stink!

Indy,

That's paul's usual incoherent bollocks.

As for the Ukrainian refugees, while most of them would be welcome additions to Australia, the reality is that most of them consider their refugee status to be temporary and feel more comfortable in neighbouring countries where they understand the language, can remain in touch with their families remaining in Ukraine and can easily return. So moving 1m Ukrainian refugees to Australia is not only impractical but probably unwelcome.

As for the Uighers, I don't see China letting them go.

AC,

So you're completely opposed to lines on a map that cause war and want new lines except that when I point out the illogicality of that, you decide that you don't want new lines drawn. That corner you're painting yourself into is getting smaller.

There are all sorts of Putin apologists around but when you declare that the votes in Donetsk, Crimea etc were democratic you reveal yourself as the most gullible of Putin apologists. Hint: people voting at the point of a gun isn't democracy.

I couldn't help but notice that after claiming that Hilary would have been tough on Putin despite a decade of being the exact opposite, you can't defend those claims when challenged. As I expected.

Hey mhaze,
I don't support western sponsored coups
How many freaking times must I say it?

Also that means by that extension, I don't support the kiev regime
- which NAZI in it's leanings and a product of an American imperialist agenda.

I do support Putin when he tried to avoid all this mess 15years ago.
- Stating his opposition to NATO expansion in Ukraine and Georgia.
I support him taking back Crimea which he said he would do if Ukraine was at risk of joining NATO.
I support the right of ethnic Russians in Crimea to decide if they want independence from the US installed Kiev regime, and I support their right to align with Russia if they so choose.
I support Putin entering into the Minsk agreements in 2014 / 2015 which was an 'internal right to self determination' and an attempt for peace.
- But the Kiev regime kept bombing them.
And so I believe the Kiev regime in doing this lost all right to rule over these people.
- And I support their next move for independence 'external right to self determination' and their right to align with Russia if they choose.
And I support Putin's actions invading the country, in line with 'collective right to self defense' which the US has used and set the precedent for in Serbia and Kosovo.
But I oppose all this unnecessary bloodshed, and think human lives are more important than the US and Kiev regimes military objectives.

Regards Hillary, maybe you should go and talk to CM about the book he just read, Hillary will do whatever for money and power, but her job was to continue the Ukrainian adventure against Putin.
- Remember the Christopher Steele dossier that was released?
That was to drive a wedge between Trump and Putin, to keep the agenda she was supposed to continue on track.
Her job was to take down Putin and Trump set all their neoconservative plans back. And that's why Vicky Nuland is number 3 in the State Department under Biden.

"So you're completely opposed to lines on a map that cause war and want new lines except that when I point out the illogicality of that, you decide that you don't want new lines drawn. That corner you're painting yourself into is getting smaller."

I want peace and a new collective security agreement between Russia and Europe.
WWIII is a really really bad idea.

What do you want?

Hi AC,

You want peace! According to some on here only Communists and nut jobs want peace. I said I wanted peace, but they said I was a commie nut job for wanting something so ridiculous. Anyway, war is such fun, you get to sit in your air conditioned office in Washington or Moscow, besides ordering pizza, you get to order others to go kill the bad guys. Just such FUN! Better than playing 'Warcraft' on the PC.

mhaze wants peace, he'll get it by killing all those bad guys on the other side with war. When they've all been exterminated he's got peace, no one left to kill, unless you want to kill a few of your own side, collateral damage and all that, its all very simple and peaceful. Get on board mate, Warmongers Incorporated, they looking for new members everyday. You can book your one way ticket to Ukraine through 'Murderers Travel' 10% off for those who book early.

I don't know why the OLO Platoon hasn't been dispatched to Ukraine to clean up those pesky Ruskies before now, Shonky, Hassy, Indy, mhaze, Jose', ttbn and the Kudos Kid. I suppose they're all busy at home preparing to take in that million Ukrainian refo's they're helping create. SM swept out the dog kennel this morning in anticipation of a dozen arrivals, they'll need somewhere to sleep at his house. The chook pens full of Uyghurs already, no room there.

"I don't know why the OLO Platoon hasn't been dispatched to Ukraine to clean up those pesky Ruskies before now.."

- I don't want them or anyone fed into the 'meatgrinder'.
War is such a horrible thing, no-one really wins.

This whole thing is the fault of the US for engaging in coloured revolutions and for trying to engineer overthrows for its own interests
(How is any of that truly supportive of their own democratic ideals?)

- And that's why I oppose such things.

Wars have nearly always started when so-called Democratic politicians think themselves into believing they're right in dictating to others & stiiring them up.
As I said before "taunt, taunt, taunt-whack ! Instantly, the retaliator is branded aggressor ! (by the hypocritical do-gooders)

Yes AC I get that you've accepted (fallen for?) all the Russian talking points. But I haven't.

You go on as though all this was just forced on a reluctant Russia who innocently tried to avoid war until they had no options. But the fact is they had plenty of options, the most obvious of which is to not invade another country.

Russia was perfectly happy to allow the status quo to hold so long as they controlled the Kiev government. But when Ukraine started out on another path, seeing that their future was with the successful Europe, not the decrepit Russia, then Putin saw a further diminution in perceived Russia prestige and sought to change the situation on the ground.

I appreciate that you've fallen for the Russian propaganda claims that the change in Ukrainian policy was really a US coup but one has to be totally accepting of all Russian lies to believe that. Even if the US was involved in the overthrow of Yanukovych, it was more a case of them supporting the popular uprising as against them fermenting that uprising. But you won't understand that.

I note that you are constantly claiming that others have to abide by all agreements even as Russia breaks each. In 1994 Russia caused Ukraine to denuclearise militarily by guaranteeing the integrity of its boarder which include Crimea. But you happily ignore that. For the dedicated Russian apologist, everyone has to abide by all agreements signed with Russia....except Russia.

You claim to be opposed to the war even as you cheer Russia's (few) successes and pine for more. You aren't opposed to the war, just opposed to anyone opposing Putin. That's not the same thing.

"You claim to be opposed to the war even as you cheer Russia's (few) successes and pine for more."

Only in the sense that I want the US neoconservatives who started it to get a blood-nose themselves.
I oppose the US foreign policy of threats, blackmail, regime change and military intervention.
- Beyond that if an agreement could be reached that would stop the fighting today I'd support it.

It's you that supports a NATO base in Crimea and wants to destabilise the whole entire world dragging us all kicking and screaming to WWIII.
- And you probably support destroying our own country by dragging us kicking and screaming into a war with China as well.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China
US Hegemony and Its Perils - 20 February 2023
http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/wjbxw/202302/t20230220_11027664.html

This is what you support:

Since becoming the world's most powerful country after the two world wars and the Cold War, the United States has acted more boldly to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, pursue, maintain and abuse hegemony, advance subversion and infiltration, and willfully wage wars, bringing harm to the international community.

The United States has developed a hegemonic playbook to stage "color revolutions," instigate regional disputes, and even directly launch wars under the guise of promoting democracy, freedom and human rights. Clinging to the Cold War mentality, the United States has ramped up bloc politics and stoked conflict and confrontation. It has overstretched the concept of national security, abused export controls and forced unilateral sanctions upon others. It has taken a selective approach to international law and rules, utilizing or discarding them as it sees fit, and has sought to impose rules that serve its own interests in the name of upholding a "rules-based international order."

This is what you oppose:

"Countries need to respect each other and treat each other as equals. Big countries should behave in a manner befitting their status and take the lead in pursuing a new model of state-to-state relations featuring dialogue and partnership, not confrontation or alliance. China opposes all forms of hegemonism and power politics, and rejects interference in other countries' internal affairs. The United States must conduct serious soul-searching. It must critically examine what it has done, let go of its arrogance and prejudice, and quit its hegemonic, domineering and bullying practices."

AC wrote: " if an agreement could be reached that would stop the fighting today I'd support it."

So you'd urge an agreement that established the status quo ante bellum? Yeah sure.

"It's you that supports a NATO base in Crimea"

Nowhere have I said anything of the sort. When you have to fabricate opinions to try to make points, you've already lost the argument (and the plot).

Not that you care, but I'd favour:
* an establishment of the status quo ante bellum
* with the option of Ukraine joining, if it wished, the EU,
* with Russian guarantees that they'd stop supporting their contrived rebellion in the Donbass,
*that allowed Russia to retain Crimea,
*that guaranteed Ukraine unfettered access to the Black Sea and
* that barred Ukraine from joining NATO for a period of 20 years except where Russia broke any of the other provisions, whereupon NATO membership would be open to Ukraine if it and NATO agreed.
*lifted all anti-Russian sanctions
*that offered the Donbass regions a degree of autonomy within Ukraine and compensation for those Russians in that region who wanted to move to Russia.

But none of that will happen. Putin has bet the farm on victory and anything less will be unacceptable to him.

"Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China" says "...Countries need to respect each other and treat each other as equals. Big countries should behave in a manner befitting their status and take the lead in pursuing a new model of state-to-state relations featuring dialogue and partnership, not confrontation or alliance. China opposes all forms of hegemonism and power politics, and rejects interference in other countries' internal affairs."

Well Tibet and Taiwan will be relieved to hear that. </sarc>

Really, AC, is there no anti-US drivel that you won't fall for?

Why not let Russia back into Cuba so it can pull out of Ukraine ?

Exactly Indy...

Hi, mhaze
"Well Tibet and Taiwan will be relieved to hear that."
- Maybe if the West stopped trying to stage coloured revolutions everywhere and forment civil unrest and robbing nations wealth the world might have some chance of actually getting along.

Taiwan, will probably see that the US is too reckless and can't realistically defend them anyway, and the KMT opposition will try to work closer with China instead.

Taiwan’s KMT hopes for elections boost after China trip
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/20/taiwans-kmt-hopes-for-elections-boost-after-china-trip

Regards your last comment.
Firstly I wonder how many people in this world are actually able to understand the concept of 'the bigger picture' it seems by your comments that you do not.

"So you'd urge an agreement that established the status quo ante bellum?"
Of course not, accept the military situation as it exists on the ground.
Russia agreeing to pull out now would create a political situation that would lead to Putin's ousting which was what the west wanted all along.
It's not a viable solution.

As for negotiations, which is a positive eventuality since Ukraine has changed its constitution to ensure that negotiations are illegal while Putin remains in power...

* an establishment of the status quo ante bellum
- Not going to happen, this would mean citizens now under Russian control would fall back under Ukrainian control only to face reprisals, and lead to a political crisis and Putins ousting, western objectives all along.
Can you see the bigger picture? do you even give a crap about these people or are you busy looking at lines on the map?
* with the option of Ukraine joining, if it wished, the EU,
- Agreed
* with Russian guarantees that they'd stop supporting their contrived rebellion in the Donbass,
- Not going to happen unless Ukraine cedes the territory previously stated
*that allowed Russia to retain Crimea,
- Agreed
*that guaranteed Ukraine unfettered access to the Black Sea and
- Agreed
* that barred Ukraine from joining NATO for a period of 20 years except where Russia broke any of the other provisions, whereupon NATO membership would be open to Ukraine if it and NATO agreed.
- No NATO membership ever, it just brings up back to the beginning and puts US into the Black Sea - and what happens if Ukraine breaks the provisions, which they would?
*lifted all anti-Russian sanctions
- Agreed
*that offered the Donbass regions a degree of autonomy within Ukraine and compensation for those Russians in that region who wanted to move to Russia.
- No deal, we already tried that it was called the Minsk agreements and the Kiev regime backed by the US has no intention of honouring it.
Ukraine has lost the right to rule over these people it has bombed.

My provisions
- Discussions of war crimes prosecutions by either side
Yes or No?

- But fun to negotiate.

Fascinating- discussion- it appears that both mhaze and Armchair Critic agree at least that lefties are a problem- based on their perceptions- for Armchair Critic seeing the issue as lying with Victoria Nuland and Hillary Clinton and Euromaiden and MH370 and Bezos (Washington Post), etc- whereas mhaze seeing it as within the Russian Communist State with Putin at the helm. mhaze perhaps sees the Democrats in relative right wing opposition to Putin's Leftist Communist Authoritarian Russia- but perception isn't always the reality- and Russia is in transition- as is the US in a sense in perhaps the opposite direction. Trotsky was seen as less authoritarian than Stalin in the way that he tyrannized the nation- but why did he - in another sense Trotsky was more Communist Authoritarian than Stalin- why did Trotsky adopt his policies. Means, motive, opportunity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism#Critique

According to wikipedia there is a view that Civic Nationalism was invented to discredit nations founded on an ethnic basis and this view has been pushed in schools and in the media and with powerful interest groups- even though this is perhaps undemocratic and tyrannical. The UN's definition of genocide includes "undermining ethnic self determination". The is an issue of how to deliminate and prioritise these these concepts- if you assume a Civic Nationalist point of view you could disregard the importance of the ethnic complexity of the two Ukrainian Leaders and the situation in Crimea.

AC,

Re Taiwan. I'll make my point plainer. The CCP claims it wants a world that "rejects interference in other countries' internal affairs." You've fallen for that. Yet at the same time they have conquered one country (Tibet) and propose to conquer another (Taiwan). The CCP is saying one thing and doing another. Its pronouncements are designed to deceive their apologists - in your case successfully.

You claim to see the big picture. But that isn't possible when you're looking at the world through a window pane designed by one side. Is that too prosaic? Let me put it more plainly. You cannot possibly see the big picture when you accept without demur all the claims of one side and reject without thought all the claims of the other. The big picture you think you see is a fiction created by the aggressors.

As to my list of things that might lead to peace...you tell me they are unrealistic when I'd already said they couldn't happen due to intransigence on both sides!! But you claim that you'd support anything that would stop the fighting but then reject anything that is disadvantageous to the Russian motherland. Peace on terms favourable to one side only isn't peace but surrender. And surrendering to aggression just leads to more aggression which would be plainly obvious to anyone with a rudimentary historic understanding.

AC

Perhaps I should set you straight on the Donbass rebellion. You write as though its an established fact that the Ukrainian government indiscriminately killed its citizens in the eastern provinces. You'd be wrong.

The truth is that the Donbass uprising was a coordinated response controlled out of Moscow to the overthrow by popular revolt of the pro-Russian Ukrainian government of Yanukovych in 2014. The Russian response was to ferment revolt in the eastern provinces. Russia has admitted to arming the revolt and sending in Russian forces to bolster the rebellion. They needed to do that because the rebellion lacked popular support. We should also recall that in arming the rebellion, the Russian supplied the missiles that were used to kill 27 Australians and 298 overall on flight MH17.

The response from Kiev was to resist the rebellion both diplomatically and militarily. This, it seems, is unacceptable in your mind. Resisting Russia in any way, is, by definition, wrong according the the Russian apologists.

So while you paint a picture of Russian citizens in Ukraine unilaterally targeted by Kiev, the facts are very different. But then again I could probably apply the phrase "the facts are very different" to most of what you write.

This play-book of using border populations to create artificial crises that then need military solutions is a standard ploy used by aggressor nations. You could and probably should acquaint yourself with the Sudeten Germans to learn how this tactic works. Its that type of thing that I'd call the rudimentary historic understanding that you lack

The rebellion in the Donbass began as protests in Sloviansk

"We should also recall that in arming the rebellion, the Russian supplied the missiles that were used to kill 27 Australians and 298 overall on flight MH17."
- I was never really convinced about that, Ukrainians had BUKs too.

"The response from Kiev was to resist the rebellion both diplomatically and militarily. This, it seems, is unacceptable in your mind. Resisting Russia in any way, is, by definition, wrong according the the Russian apologists."

You've got it back to front, I resist more the Western sponsored coup and the US installed Kiev Banderite regime.
You want me to show you Vicky Nuland and Geoffery Pratt talking on the phone about which US puppet leader they wish to install?

F%#! the EU - Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pratt during Maidan (2014)
http://youtu.be/G5FVVZE3XS8

Or maybe you want this instead?
Pre-Maidan! Ukraine Deputy has proof of USA staging civil war in Ukraine
http://youtu.be/y9hOl8TuBUM

You seem to think that removing a democratically elected leader with a US sponsored coup is perfectly legitimate. Yes?

You seem to think the Western sponsored coup which was originally a grassroots peaceful protest co-opted by US sponsored Right Sector and Sbovoda to shoot up the place, that's fine.
Why would ethnic Russians want to live under Ukrainian NAZI rule, especially when they tried to ban the Russian language - but anyway, lets argue your point of view that the separatists were Russian sponsored conter-coup in relation to events in Kiev

US sponsored coup in Kiev just fine
Russian sponsored counter-coup in the ethic Russian heartlands not fine
How do you hold those 2 contradicting positions?

I don't support sanctions or regime changes,
I find myself saying this time and time again, but it just never seems to sink in.
Have you seen whats happening in Georgia right now?
http://youtu.be/zlffElQrRhU?t=217

AC,

In 2014 the Donbas and Luhansk regions were still minority Russian-populated districts. The uprising fomented by Russia would have gone nowhere had Russia not sent in its military.

The missile that brought down the airliner was fired from well within the Russian-occupied areas. There is no doubt as to who fired the missile, all that remains is why.

I see the attempted invasion of Bakhmut has stalled with Wagner claiming to be running out of ammunition men and equipment. I also see that the Russian units that have been massacred at Vuhledar
are refusing to fight.

The Russian lines will collapse the question is when.

Hey shadowminister,
"In 2014 the Donbas and Luhansk regions were still minority Russian-populated districts. The uprising fomented by Russia would have gone nowhere had Russia not sent in its military."

- That's not true, and I'll prove it.

The maps tell the story, go look at the 'Ethnic Breakdown of Ukraine'
http://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?t=369
- You see there?
Draw a line from Kharkiv to Odessa and everything east of that line including those cities is predominantly Russian-speaking people.
- This includes Zaporozhye, Dnipro, and Kremenchuk.

Now watch the first minute of this video:
It's Lavrov talking about those same Russian - speaking people being denied use of the Russian language.
http://youtu.be/q_nKD4jdPpY

"We defended the Russian people who had been denied by President Zelensky the right to use the Russian language in education, media and culture, - in everything - if you check the Ukrainian legislation passed after the coup brought to power this new NAZI regime they legally canceled everything that had to do with the Russian language and when the people who did not accept the coup in the east of Ukraine and in Crimea said 'guys leave us alone we are not going to to follow your policies' they were declared terrorists and that is the regime who started the war against these people, That's why the Minsk agreements were considered the way to stop this."

Are you saying the maps are wrong?
Are you saying Lavrov is lying about changes to the Ukrainian constitution?

All you people blindly supporting the Ukrainian side
HAVE BEEN SOLD A FALSE NARRATIVE

"The missile that brought down the airliner was fired from well within the Russian-occupied areas. There is no doubt as to who fired the missile, all that remains is why."

Were you there?
Did you know the people who fired the missile personally?
Do you have inside knowledge none of us have?
- You don't know for certain, and nor do I.

"The Russian lines will collapse the question is when."
- Russia has a few hundred thousand men from partial mobilization which have yet to be committed to the battle.

Hey mhaze,
"The CCP is saying one thing and doing another."
- Perhaps, it's certainly possible.

But we can't stop or catch their growth or their lead in STEM Phd fields.
So what do you suggest we do about that?
Nuke them? Blow 'em up? To keep them down?
- Send 'em back to the stone age?

Why should we stop them from reaching whatever god given potential they have is?
As long as they don't harm us and we can stand up and defend our 'AUSTRALIAN' interests, - which stops at our borders, then 1/ what'
s the problem exactly? and 2/ what does what they do in their own backyard have to do with us?

WE can say hey, treat the people of Tibet and Xinjiang nicely please, but is it really our business to go in there and stir up strife, like the US is doing in Georgia right now?

Do you really want to side with a group that like to stir up shite in other peoples countries, getting people killed, just because it can for and for the sake of it's own national security interests (technically anywhere on the globe)

"The CCP claims it wants a world that "rejects interference in other countries' internal affairs." You've fallen for that."
- Maybe, but I know for ABSOLUTE FREAKING CERTAIN that the US has no qualms whatsoever IN DOING EXACTLY THAT.

Struth AC,

Talking to you is like trying to hold rancid custard. Because there's no substance to it, it just pours through the fingers and down the drain.

You approvingly quote the CCP claiming to want a world that " rejects interference in other countries' internal affairs." I point out that the CCP is acting completely contrary to this purported aim. And your response? You agree but then (1) wonder what I propose to do about it and (2) start another anti-US rant that they also interfere with other countries.

How about we start with you admitting that when you approvingly quoted the CCP you were talking through that well used hat of yours. Are you capable of doing that? No?

Does the US interfere in other nation's affairs? Yes. And you rant about it all day. Does the CCP interfere in other nation's affairs. Yes. And you run and hide from that all day.

If you had any of that rudimentary historic understanding that I mentioned, you'd know that great powers have been interfering in other nation's affairs ever since there were great powers. And like the CCP they've been denying it. And like you, there have been dills who willingly fall for those denials.

____________________________________________________________________

As to the Donbass, US interference in the 2014 elections in Ukraine does not justify Russian interference in the Donbass ever since. And even if it did, it doesn't prove that the inhabitants of the Donbass want out of Ukraine. That's just Russian propaganda which you, of coarse, have blindly accepted as per usual.

Being Russian speaking doesn't mean these people want to be part of Russia. And even if it did, it doesn't justify redrawing borders. There are Russian speakers in the Baltic states - redraw the map there? There are German speakers in Austria and Alsace-Lorraine, redraw the borders there? Its just more tripe put out by the Russian apologists which dupes such as AC blindly accept.

The Ukraine is a perfect example of the result of multiculturalism at work, but of course the Labor government want to bring in here over 200,000 ethnics to help us towards such a future.

AC,

Thanks for showing that the only area in 2016 that had an ethnic majority of Russians was Crimea which was flooded with people from Russia after the illegal invasion of Crimea. In 1990 Crimea voted overwhelmingly to leave the Soviet Union and Russia.

The whole of Ukraine incl Crimea must be returned to Ukraine and the illegal Russian immigrants repatriated.

Hey mhaze,
Look, I don't know all the exact details of what's going on in Tibet
If I did I'd be in a better position to comment on it.

But I suspect that if I looked up National Endowment for Democracy funding for dissident groups in Tibet I bet I'd find something.
You'd probably find that if the West wasn't meddling to deliberately stir things up, that everyone would be getting along just fine.

Here you go, what did I just say?
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=National+emdownment+for+Democracy+Tibet

"Being Russian speaking doesn't mean these people want to be part of Russia."

Helloooo Charter boat?

Tell me mate if the CCP installed a puppet government in Australia and banned english, would you or would you not be jumping up and down screaming your head off that your rights were being trampled on?

Ching chong ching chang chau.
You bet you'd be whinging about the CCP's sponsored regime's new rules and wanting to get autonomy or independence from the newly installed CCP Australian puppet government.
- I definitely would be, I don't speak mandarin.

I seriously can't comprehend wtf you people think sometimes...

"And even if it did, it doesn't justify redrawing borders."

First Putin tried to support 'internal right to self determination'
- Minsk
This 'automomy' would've fixed the problem - Kiev's response - bomb them more
So now you got calls for independence to protect human rights, which is 'external right to self determination' and 'collective self defence by Russia, a UN member state. All legit mate.

When I wrote: ""We should also recall that in arming the rebellion, the Russian supplied the missiles that were used to kill 27 Australians and 298 overall on flight MH17" I wondered if AC would demonstrate the true level of his utter disregard for the facts and utter subservience to Russian propaganda by absolving them of responsibility for the attack.

And guess what he did...he demonstrated the true level of his utter disregard for the facts by writing..." I was never really convinced about that, Ukrainians had BUKs too."

Struth!

Shadowminister,

I feel like I'm trapped on a dillberry farm.
I'm betting your mum told you that you were very special boy?

Go back and look at the map again.
See the red and pink parts there?
They are the parts which are 'mosty' and 'predominantly' Ukrainian speaking.

"The whole of Ukraine incl Crimea must be returned to Ukraine and the illegal Russian immigrants repatriated."
Maybe you should go there like a good little dilberry and stand under the coming nuclear bomb, which is what will happen before Russia cedes Crimea and the Black Sea to NATO.

Oh look, China's helped to broker peace between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
- Unlike the US who prefers to instigate war between nations.

HUGE China Brokered Deal, Iran & Saudi Arabia Restore Diplomatic Ties
http://youtu.be/JgpzgrPYPhw

Hey mhaze
>>And guess what he did...he demonstrated the true level of his utter disregard for the facts by writing..." I was never really convinced about that, Ukrainians had BUKs too."<<

- Personally I think they were idiots for flying commercial airliners full of passengers over a damn warzone.
http://tinyurl.com/m2sypa6n

"Personally I think they were idiots for flying commercial airliners full of passengers over a damn warzone."

Yep, those kids (http://www.bellanaija.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mh17-victims-1-Bella-Naija.jpg) were just asking for it. The Russians who fired the missile are the real victims, eh AC?

Quite dispicable.

AC,

As usual, regurgitated Russian propaganda when he wrote: "It's Lavrov talking about those same Russian - speaking people being denied use of the Russian language."

The use of the Russian language was never denied. All that happened was that the Ukrainians made Ukrainian the official language of the state and required that it be used in all bureaucratic dealings. Russians were not (repeat: WERE NOT) denied the use of their language in their everyday lives. BTW, Russia and many other countries have laws about the designated language to be used within the bureaucracy. Additionally, the Ukrainians passed laws that said that all publications printed in Ukraine must use Ukrainian. They can still publish in other languages but when they do so they must also issue a Ukrainian version. (Russia has the same law. But all good Russophiles will ignore that.) There is no ban on importing foreign language publications - unlike Russia.

So AC, your claims about the Russian language being erased are just rubbish and simply a regurgitation of Russian propaganda.

Just once, (just once) I'd like to see you go away and get the facts on this issue and then try to fathom how you got it so wrong. But that won't happen, will it? You'll just move onto the next bit of idiocy.

Don't you think that if the Russian foreign minister was openly lying, that people would've called it out?

"So AC, your claims about the Russian language being erased are just rubbish and simply a regurgitation of Russian propaganda."

What because you say so?
That a foreign minister and diplomat who holds probably more respect than any other in the world must automatically be lying?

"All that happened was that the Ukrainians made Ukrainian the official language of the state and required that it be used in all bureaucratic dealings."

- So hows that work exactly?
All the Russian speaking people in the east of the country have no voice or representation without someone who speaks Ukrainian and is aligned with the nationalists in the western part of Ukraine?
- But they all wish to enrich themselves with the profitable eastern part of the country.

All this speaks to the reality that the Russian speaking people and those parts of the country should be separate and independent to the Ukrainian speaking part of the country.
- There's no other realistic option, except conflict.

I'm lead to believe the three best foreign ministers are

Sergey Lavrov, (Russia)
Subrahmanyam Jaishankar (India)
Péter Szijjártó (Hungary)
- Don't know much about the latter.

But I really have to say that after yesterdays events of Saudi Arabia and Iran reestablishing diplomatic relations and agreeing to reopen embassies in each others countries, that China’s most senior diplomat, Wang Yi is probably up there as well.

Look at the attitude of these people
http://www.skynews.com.au/insights-and-analysis/tread-carefully-the-west-is-heading-for-a-truly-ugly-scenario-if-putin-is-replaced-with-a-more-radical-leader/news-story/27a73a21e212051533019f287ab87dd1

"The good scenario is based on the assumption that Putin can be replaced by a more liberal alternative who will adopt a friendlier approach to the West.
Such a candidate would stop the war, withdraw Russian forces from Ukrainian territory, return Crimea back to Kyiv, pay the Ukrainians reparations for the collateral damage caused by the invasion and gradually demilitarise the country.
That would all be in exchange for the West lifting sanctions and major companies returning to Russia.
In essence, the new leader’s goal would be to reintegrate the federation into Western civilisation.
This time last year, most in the West truly believed this was an achievable scenario."

Who the hell is the West to assume that everyone on the planet should do things their way like subordinate vassal states built in their own image, - that countries don't have any right to do things their own way?
- They don't even represent half of the worlds population.

The US isn't even the world leader anymore, China is.
Saudi Arabia moving towards China, means the petrodollar is doomed.
Iran and Saudi Arabia will join BRICS.
That means BRICS nations new currency will become the worlds reserve currency. That the US will lose it's reserve currency status and the world will dump US dollars, have little need for them, being able to trade in oil without the US currency. America not be able to fund it's debt obligations and collapse.

Beyond that China is the world leader in 37 of 44 critical technologies, drastically outnumber STEM Phd graduates and the West cannot possibly keep up. Also China's industrial manufacturing base is greater than US and Europe combined.

The world is changing, and if the US keeps sending weapons to Taiwan, China is going to send weapons to Russia.

Just reading more of this article

"The tsunami of sanctions was supposed to make the Russians desperate, forcing them to take to the streets and possibly storm the Kremlin and overthrow Putin’s government."

- Is that or is that not 'collective punishment upon the people?
They went bat-shite crazy when their own citizens did the same on Jan 6, peacefully I might add, but they make out they were stormed by armed insurgents

"Many hoped an internal coup would be instigated by Russian oligarchs, in partnership with liberal and pro-Western factions of the President’s administration.
None of these hopes came to fruition.
Those who opposed the Kremlin and the war fled the country or were silenced.
Oligarchs were to told to put up or shut up; Putin’s address last month to the Federal Assembly contained a thinly-veiled threat to those oligarchs whose loyalty to their country was diluted by their loyalty to their personal wealth."

- Trying to cause internal conflict, playing the people off against the government, as part of standard policy towards other nations.

"As a result, the only way to make the “good” scenario a reality is to bring in a charismatic opposition figures who currently lives in exile.
Can it be done?
The answer is yes, but not through any democratic process – such opponents have no hope of winning over Putin - but by a regime change instigated from abroad."

- Install a US aligned puppet ruler, just openly stating it.

"This eventuality would almost certainly require foreign military intervention, which would presumably prompt a nuclear response from Moscow.
I seriously doubt the West would want such an outcome."

- Were going to do this stuff to you, but we must minimise any risk that you might actually something to us, like nuke us for example.

"The 'bad' scenario would involve Putin staying on as leader and eventually transferring his powers to a political heir.
How realistic is that?
It can work if Putin manages to pull off a miracle and achieve major military success in Ukraine this year.
He could also reach an interim political settlement with the West over Ukraine without losing too much political face.
That would likely involve some concessions and the partial lifting of sanctions in exchange for suspending military action, allowing Putin to sell a pragmatic victory of sorts to his electorate.
Under other circumstances, the patriotic Russians who Putin mobilised and weaponised so effectively last year would simply vote him out or, in the worst case, replace him by force with a more radical alternative."

"Putin being replaced by a more radical successor would be a truly ugly scenario.
It would not lead to peace, only to further escalation.
Under this scenario, a radical leader in the Kremlin, who would almost certainly be backed by the government’s vast security apparatus, the military and the defence industrial complex, would transform Russia into a truly militarised state.
An all-out war would be declared on Ukraine following a full-scale mobilisation, and the few remaining restrictions on the use of brutal force would be lifted.
The war would continue until the full occupation and devastation of Ukraine is achieved.
As a form of further escalation, the Russians may threaten the Baltics with full occupation, and Finland with a select takeover of its territory unless it withdraws its application for NATO membership.
NATO’s activation of Article 5 (which does not in reality mean an automatic declaration of war upon an aggressor) would be countered with blunt threats to deploy tactical nuclear weapons against targets in western Ukraine and Poland.

The Russian navy may stage deep sea sabotage operations and damage transcontinental communications networks, including submarine cable systems.
The Russian Pacific Fleet would likely join China in blockading Taiwan."

I think I've made my point, you can all go read it yourselves.
US foreign policies and the way they treat other nations are pure madness.

AC,

"Don't you think that if the Russian foreign minister was openly lying, that people would've called it out?"

They did. Its just that you restrict your 'research' (for want of a better word) to those sites that tell you what you want to hear. Therefore you didn't see others call him out. But you won't understand that.
eg http://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/08/sergey-lavrov/russian-has-not-been-banned-ukraine-despite-repeat/

"What because you say so?"

No, not because I say so. I was inviting you to do your own checking. But clearly that's beyond your capabilities.

I could show you lots of places where the Russian claims have been debunked, but that'd be futile because you'd just assert they are western sites and therefore, in your world, wrong. So here....go to the source document and try to work it out for yourself. Or not.

http://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/2704-19#Text

Its laughable that you are so far in the Russian propaganda trap that you can't even conceive of Lavrov lying. If only you had that rudimentary historic understanding you'd see how moronic that is.

AC,

You are being a half-wit. Because someone speaks Russian does not mean that he is ethnically or culturally Russian. The Ukrainian army is full of people that speak Russian but identify as Ukrainian. This is why in 1990 Crimea and Donbas voted very convincingly to leave Russia and the Soviet Union.

As for your scenarios:

1- Russia calls for a cease-fire.
The lifting of any sanctions and the ceasing of arming Ukraine will not happen until Russia leaves all of Ukraine. Russia continually violated the Minsk agreement and cannot be trusted.

2- Russia goes full Nazi and begins a general mobilization.

The problem with this is that Russia is not the Soviet Union. In 1940 the USSR had a massive industrial base with much of it in Ukraine. Since 1990 Russia has lost its heavy industrial base in Ukraine, and the military-industrial complex has withered with the focus on oil and gas leaving Russia with only one factory capable of building tanks and the Mikoyan and Sukhoi aircraft industries having to merge to compensate for the lack of orders and the loss of qualified people. To get these industries working again is not going to take a fiat from Putin, but at least a couple of years of investment and training before any meaningful results. Russia cannot replace the materiel it loses.

The only benefit to the Russian army of a general mobilization will be a boost in the number of conscripts (This will also cause a second exodus of qualified young men) and these conscripts will need to fight without the backup of tanks, IFVs, and artillery that the Ukrainians are so deliberately targeting. This will be met with a surge in armaments of increased lethality from the US and allies they had previously held back.

A Russian general mobilization will inflict more damage on Russia than Ukraine. The possibility of Russia occupying the whole of Ukraine disappeared with the massacre of Russian tanks and equipment in the original attack on Kyiv and Kharkiv.

Russia cannot win this war.

Ukrainian soldier says Russians are hunting them and dropping them like 'bunny rabbits'.
He says the Ukrainian soldiers are getting 3 days training in Kharkiv,
Allowed to shoot 2 magazines and being sent to the front in Bakhmut,
- And that Russians are far more well equipped.
He looks to be about 18.

http://youtu.be/_SLihFYOhz0?t=120

As long as people like you lot keep supporting it;
Our government as well as all the others, will keep sending weapons,
- And more of these young kids are going to pay for it.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.
You can thank US neoconservatives for that.
But as for a continuation of the war the bloods on your hands as much as any others.
Good luck with your lines on the map.
Let them keep losing more lives and territory, if that's what you want.

"The lifting of any sanctions and the ceasing of arming Ukraine will not happen until Russia leaves all of Ukraine."

The West has sanctioned itself, Ukraine is a sideshow.
Banks in America lost 50bln in one day.

Plunge in Regional Bank Stocks Triggers Spate of Trading Halts
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live-blog/2023-03-12/svb-fallout-spreads

Might be a US Bank run coming.

European bank shares plunge as SVB fallout spreads
http://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2023/03/13/european-bank-shares-plunge-as-svb-fallout-spreads/

The West and their sanctions froze Russias foreign reserves and stole assets from individuals and tried to cap the price of oil, this has ticked Saudi Arabia off,
- Bye, bye petrodollar and US dollar as reserve currency.

America plays checkers Putin plays chess.

Russia wants a long war because the West is going to face financial collapse.
China and Russia and the other BRICS nations, including a dozen applicants inc. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mexico, Argentina are going to end up destroying the west economically.
Germany's energy problems already cost it half a trillion dollars last year.

US is making war against China, but it needs it to buy it's bonds to fund it's debts.
http://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/23/us-will-resume-economic-talks-with-china-at-an-appropriate-time-yellen.html
"U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said Thursday the United States would resume economic talks with China “at an appropriate time” as Beijing continues to sell its vast stock of Treasurys and as Washington warns against possible sanctions violation in relation to Russia."

Europe Energy Prices Soar Amid French Nuclear Woes and Strikes
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-10/europe-energy-prices-spike-amid-cold-weather-and-french-strikes
Benchmark natural gas futures settled 21% higher, the biggest jump since June. French year-ahead power surged 16%, the most in more than six months.

Europe’s spend on energy crisis nears $1.2 trillion
http://www.afr.com/companies/energy/europe-s-spend-on-energy-crisis-nears-1-2-trillion-20230213-p5ck75

AC,

http://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-06fb92f88d0527ce6b9fc575874afb74

Here is a picture from Bakhmut of about 65 Russian "Bunnies" dead in a field, left there for weeks by the Russians. This is a tiny portion of the front littered with Russian dead from their human wave attacks. The attack on Bakhmut has stalled due to the massive Russian casualties and loss of equipment.

Russia is still running out of tanks, armoured vehicles, ammunition, helicopters, anti-aircraft systems etc.

As for Russia taking on Finland, Estonia etc that's a joke. The Finnish army is disproportionately strong and, in a conflict, could be in St Petersburg in a few days. As for the Baltic states, they are presently hosting 1000s of US and British troops who would beat the Russian army into scrap.

Russia's oil and gas revenues are shrinking by the day as the caps and bans are enforced.

Russia is losing this war.

"That means BRICS nations new currency will become the worlds reserve currency."

Only someone who understands international finance in the same way as my budgie understands General Relativity would think that some other currency will replace the US$ this side of 2050 at best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiR54FPQiCs

Ukraine will ran out of ammo in 6 months or less and theres nothing the West can do about it.
Russia and China are set to do 200Bln in trade this year and India is buying 1.6 million barrels of oil per day from Russia.

The US is the worlds reserve currency because of the Petrodollar, all nations previously needed it to settle their oil purchases.
Even Saudi Arabia is now selling oil to China in RMB.
That is now gone as countries are bypassing the dollar and making payment in other currencies.
This means that countries have no need to hold US dollars.
Also China holds a decent portion of US bonds, which are sold to pay US debts.
Many countries are now selling off their treasuries, and the US needs China to buy them to fund its debt obligations.
Also, many countries are joining BRICS
The US can't do anything except QE, but this increases the money supply and creates more inflation, which leads to the Fed raising interest rates.
Stagflation. The more the US prints money the higher interest rates go, the more businesses go bust and more people become unemployed, less economic activity and less tax receipts to government.
The US is expected to go into recession this year and needs to raise the debt ceiling to avoid a default.
The whole house of cards is going to collapse soon.

The US capitalist economy is under attack, with banking collapses due to the creation of phoney money and rapidly rising interests rates, a plunging stock market, shades of 1929 returning! The Americans plan for all out war with its biggest economic rival China is well advanced. At this moment America is marshalling its allied warmongers in Britain, Europe, Australia, Japan and elsewhere to wage this new capitalist war. The present war with Russia in Ukraine is not sufficient to sustain the US capitalist economy, a new and bigger war is required. Australia is going to chip in $200 plus billion in the form of war buys from Big Capital, but this will prove too little too late. Of course in most American wars of aggression the flunky nation of Australia quickly become a gung-ho participant.

Russia downs MQ-9 Reaper over the Black Sea
http://www.airandspaceforces.com/russian-fighter-collides-with-american-mq-9-over-black-sea-drone-lost/

“Our MQ-9 aircraft was conducting routine operations in international airspace when it was intercepted and hit by a Russian aircraft, resulting in a crash and complete loss of the MQ-9,”

Gotta love their media spin.
They make out like they were on a recreational flight and doing absolutely nothing wrong, when it truth they were absolutely acting as a party to the war in Ukraine and as such were a military target for Russians.
It's not like they were operating just off the Coast of Florida.

How do I know the were they acting as a direct party to the war in Ukraine?
- Because Vicky Nuland said so.
http://www.youtube.com/live/UxQ0YIDC10A?feature=share&t=52

The military targets in Crimea would be considered a legitimate target for Ukrainians, and they are entitled to solicit help from others.
The US was providing surveillance and targeting for Ukrainian targets in Crimea, but because the US was helping to facilitate that with the Reapers, whether from international waters or not it then they also become a legitimate target for Russia.

I assume the SU-27 Flankers rammed the nose of their jets into the prop, rather than to fire on it. They can play it off as an 'accident' this time, but the game will be up next time, there will be no way for them to say it wasn't deliberate.

I guess we now have direct confrontation between Russia and the US, albeit an unmanned drone, operating in international waters.

A few days ago that when Russia fired a barrage of missiles, including 6 Kinzhal hypersonic missiles at Ukrainian targets and that one of those targets (unconfirmed report) was a military command and control bunker in Lviv responsible for Ukrainian air defenses that extends to 80 meters depth.
Apparently there were up to 40 NATO officers and 300 personnel there.
A day or so later the US used a B-52 to do a mock nuclear strike on St. Petersberg from the Baltic Sea.

http://www.npr.org/2023/03/09/1162127060/russia-hits-multiple-cities-across-ukraine-some-with-hypersonic-missiles

http://meduza.io/en/news/2023/03/12/an-american-b-52-bomber-capable-of-carrying-nuclear-weapons-conducted-planned-maneuvers-over-the-baltic-sea

Hey mhaze,

"Yep, those kids (http://www.bellanaija.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mh17-victims-1-Bella-Naija.jpg) were just asking for it. The Russians who fired the missile are the real victims, eh AC?

Quite dispicable."

- You're making a statement of fact that Russians fired the missile.
Ukrainians most certainly also had BUK missile systems.
Do you think it was ok for Malaysian airlines to fly over a warzone to save a little fuel?

I feel sorry for those kids and everyone else on board, but its not like I flew the plane over a warzone to save fuel or that I shot the missile.
Do you want me to feel guilty for something that isn't my fault?

Furthermore, I showed this forum months back witness testimony from elderly women in the Mariupol Drama theater that stated the building wasn't bombed, but was filled with explosives which was willfully detonated whist many people including women, kids and elderly in order for the Ukrainians to make the claim that Russians were responsible for war crimes.

Eyewitness states Ukrainian forces blew up Mariupol Drama Theater on Purpose
http://youtu.be/cKlgBw8mQhs?t=1670
- What do you think the babooshka is a paid propagandist on the Kremlins payroll?

- With this in mind, the Ukrainians most certainly have form when it comes to false flags, specifically staging atrocities upon innocent people to give an impression of Russian war crimes, which the aim is to bolster support of people like yourself, and their governments to send money and weapons to support a Ukrainian defence.
As well as that I told everyone here way back before the Russian invasion started that I heard info that Russians did not bring down MH17 and had my doubts about the 'official' story.

You all keep talking about Russian 'human waves' and massive losses on the Russian side.

How is it that if Russia has an artillery advantage of about 8 to 1 that they're taking all these losses?
- Maybe Russians are just firing their weapons into empty paddocks like we're always told the Palestinians do.
- It's all just recreational paddock attacks?

Your narrative falls apart and doesn't make any sense, and how come the media never states what the Russian Ministry of Defence claims it's numbers of KIA and wounded are?
Are you all that dumb that you can't tell the difference between being sold a narrative rather than people attempting to truly inform you?

- If they were trying to truly inform you rather than sell you a narrative, then they would say what both sides state the numbers were, not just give you the Ukrainian and Western perspective?
- Seems to me you're all too stupid to know the difference between being informed and sold a story.

AC,

I am stunned by the quantity of unbelievable bollocks you post. A 5 yr old better has understanding of economics.

- A failure of a couple of specialty banks failing with a capacity of about 0.01% of US banking does not mean that the banking system is failing. The rest of the banks are all making a healthy profit.

- BRICS is not an organisation any more than the OECD is. It is a grouping of countries in a similar state of development. None of them has a currency that meets the requirements for a reserve currency as all these countries have state-controlled currencies for starters.

- All the BRICS countries have a debt-to-GDP ratio of twice or more of the USA.

- QE in the USA ceased a while ago and a mild recession is nothing close to a collapse.

- Russia is running a budget deficit of nearly $40bn per month and unless something changes will burn through its reserves, wealth fund and gold reserves by year-end.

- Russia is running out of money, men, ammunition, tanks etc.

- Russia is losing this war.

Massive U.S. dollar dump? BRICS to launch new currency causing tsunami of inflation - Andy Schectman Kitco NEWS
http://youtu.be/FzI0oyxQ218

China is turning 'alpha dog' in global politics, BRICS currency gaining traction - Michael Wilkerson Kitco NEWS
http://youtu.be/xFVOGJbcstQ

Countries have been moving to implement more policies and methods of dedollarisation, thanks to sanctions on Russia;
Alternative payment methods to go around SWIFT

Ukraine lacks the troops to launch any more successful counteroffensives
- Don't look at the doctored western casualty numbers look at the big picture in the story they are putting forward

Ukraine short of skilled troops and munitions as losses, pessimism grow - Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/13/ukraine-casualties-pessimism-ammunition-shortage/

"The quality of Ukraine’s military force, once considered a substantial advantage over Russia, has been degraded by a year of casualties that have taken many of the most experienced fighters off the battlefield, leading some Ukrainian officials to question Kyiv’s readiness to mount a much-anticipated spring offensive."

- They've put all of their eggs into keeping Bakhmut from falling.
It's not just a military aim to hold it, but also it will lead to a political crisis and destroy Ukrainian troop and citizen morale.

ICC to seek arrest warrants for Russian officials over Ukraine war
http://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/icc-to-seek-arrest-warrants-for-russian-officials-over-ukraine-war-20230314-p5cryk.html

“As of now we have information that Ukraine is sending reserves to Bakhmut that underwent training in Western countries. And we are suffering losses among reserves that we intended to use for counter-offensives,” Ukrainian military analyst Oleh Zhdanov said."We could lose here everything we wanted to use for those counter-offensives.”

Why the US dollar has become an at-risk currency
http://nypost.com/2023/03/11/why-the-us-dollar-has-become-an-at-risk-currency/

"It’s not farfetched to imagine the US experiencing a debt crisis because no one shows up to buy its bonds. The US dollar will become just one more currency, among many. And ultimately, if the dollar loses it shine, so will the ability of the US to project power.

To stem this tide, hard choices must be made: like strategically reducing our enemy count even as we continue to support allies like Ukraine. Perhaps most difficult, the US must get its economic house in order by – once and for all – finally figuring out how to live within its means."

Seems to me the SCO is waging a war against the petrodollar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation

They want a multipolar world...
What do you think happens if you go around the world crapping on everyone?
- Eventually all those people make friends and rise up against you.

Patriotic Nations are defined by no refugees !

AC,

From the same article, you quoted:

"U.S. and European officials have estimated that as many as 120,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed or wounded since the start of Russia’s invasion early last year, compared with about 200,000 on the Russian side". The Russian forces also have very few veterans left. Wagner is desperately recruiting in schools to replace the estimated 30 000 men Wagner has lost. The battles at Vuhledar almost wiped out 2 Russian divisions and it is looking like Russia has started a second "partial mobilization"

Russia is also desperately short of ammunition with ammunition arriving rusted from stocks that were previously deemed unusable. Tanks and APCs from the 50s and 60s are being delivered to the front to cover battlefield losses.

There are also 30 000 Ukrainian troops returning from 3 months of Nato training, along with 100s of tanks, IFVs howitzers etc.

Russia cannot win this war.

As far as a reserve currency is concerned:

"This article examines factors which could determine whether a currency can be a global reserve currency, the major candidates, and implications.
A credible currency needs to be (a) stable (b) safe (c) store of value (d) a medium of exchange (e) widely accepted and (f) trusted. Additional criteria for a global reserve currency are: (a) Features and stability of the political system of issuing country (structure, processes and institutions) (b) Quality of institutions and processes; (c) Size and prospects of the Economy; (d) Integration of markets and economy globally; (e) Transparent, open system."

Maybe you can show which of the BRICS countries have all these qualities?

The apologists for totalitarian regimes have been declaring the immanent end of the great Satan for as long as I can recall. According to them....

1960s - the USSR was winning the space race which showed its superior system. The great Satan was on the way out. (they said)

1970s - the oil crisis and the Carter recession. The great Satan was on the way out. The Soviets were so far ahead economically, that the capitalists stood no chance. (they said)

1980s - oops, Gorby was admitting that the USSR wasn't all sugar and cream. No worry, because here come Japan and its going to overwhelm the US with its new guided economy. The great Satan was finished (they said).

1990s - oh know. The USSR is no more. And Japan has stagnated. But look over there...The EU is coming to overwhelm the upstarts. the great Satan is finished (they said).

2000s - uh-oh the EU is falling apart. But hurrah, here comes China. Growth rates twice or more that of the US. It'll become the biggest economy in the world in (think of number and halve it) years. Never mind that it's entirely dependent on the US markets to stay open and the US to keep world trade routes safe. No China's gunna win and that's the end of the great Satan (they said).

As so here we are. The US currently led by perhaps the worst set of morons and charlatans in its history and things aren't looking great for the great Satan.(they said)

and the usual suspects look at the short term problems and proclaim to be long term trends. T'was always thus. (they said)

Where is that rudimentary historic understanding? Just a few droplets of it might open their blinded eyes.

I can't help but notice.

For weeks AC has been declaring that those dastardly Ukrainians had passed laws banning the Russian language in the country. Up-hill and down-dale he asserted it as fact. It had to be fact because a Russian official has said it and and AC knows as a fact that Russian officials never lie. So there, you Ukraine lovers...game, set, match.

oops...

Then I showed him the actual Ukrainian legislation which makes clear that the Russian language hasn't been banned. By extension therefore it shows that Russian officials were lying to poor AC and that Russian claims that they had to wage war to save their brethren from this fate were false.

AC's reaction? Crickets. Silence. Not a word. No attempt to walk back his moronic claims. No admission of error. No mea culpa. Not that I expected it from AC. A better man yes, but not AC.

Still it does help to note his duplicity.

You keep saying Russia can't win this war like a violin, but one thing is for certain.
Ukraine certainly can't win it.

Russia may not have done so well militarily, but it's done well enough and it sure has weathered the economic war, which backfired on the west spectacularly.

"Russia is also desperately short of ammunition with ammunition arriving rusted from stocks that were previously deemed unusable. Tanks and APCs from the 50s and 60s are being delivered to the front to cover battlefield losses."

Even if that's true, it doesn't matter, because China, North Korea and Iran will all help Russia before it sees Russia lose, and the west can't make up the shortfall in weapons Ukraine lacks.

Half of those 'so-called' tanks don't even have tracks, apart from the Bradleys which won't fare that well against modern weapons, all they've got is a fair amount of Leopards, of which Ukraine will lose more than its getting before it even gets them and a handful of Challenger 2 which the UK is too scared to actually bring into combat lest they might be captured.

And as I told you before, those KIA and casualty numbers are doctored.
They are Ukraine and the Wests 'official' numbers meant to keep Ukrainian troop morale high and western citizens supporting the ongoing war, They never give you the Russian numbers because they don't want to inform you, they want to sell you.

"Then I showed him the actual Ukrainian legislation which makes clear that the Russian language hasn't been banned. By extension therefore it shows that Russian officials were lying to poor AC and that Russian claims that they had to wage war to save their brethren from this fate were false."

No you said it, and even then I went over and translated it and read part of it, but it's the updated version from 2019, it doesn't talk about 2014, and I saw the news what they were reporting at the time about it. The country was taken over by NAZI nationalist Banderites, yet you expect everyone to believe they haven't targeted the Russian language at all. In Banderastan, I mean Ukraine, they purged millions of Russian books.

Maybe you can show which of the BRICS countries have all these qualities?
- It's all about oil, which the world still needs plenty of.

Pretty funny US lost a 130M drone, doing targeting surveillance in Crimea for Ukraine.
Routine flight... yeah right.

The Russian Su-27's dumped fuel on it first and tried to light it up with afterburners, but it didn't work, so they rammed the prop.
The Russian story is 'we did nothing wrong, pilot error' Lol

Russia is going to try to retrieve the drone now, but it's in deep water.
US was trying to sneak into Russian Air Defense Identification Zone with it's transponder off, and got what it deserved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone

It was actively involved in the fight against Russia.
Looks like Russia sent them a message.

So let's get this straight AC.

You say, based on what you "saw the news" in 2014, that the Russian language was banned. Your evidence for this assertion is that "they were reporting at the time about it". This is based on your recollection.

THEN in 2019, the Ukrainians (according to your claim) changed the law to NOT ban Russian. (Makes perfect sense). Then (according to your claim) the greatest foreign minister in the world, said they had banned the Russian language even though they'd not banned it, and that proves they are NAZIs and he's the greatest foreign minister in the world (does this still makes sense to you??).

THEN in 2022, Russia decides to invade Ukraine because they'd banned the Russian language in 2014, even though they'd UNbanned in 2019. (does this still makes sense to you??).

I don't know AC. But it looks very much like you really don't care what the truth is...you're just going to regurgitate the Russian propaganda no matter what.

If you think that's the story I've been telling here for years,
- then maybe it's time you just went back to sleep.
Time for your nanny-nap mate.

And btw, the war in Banderastan started in 2014, not 2022.

AC seems to be running for cover by playing the fool.

So let's make it easy for him. Does CURRENT Ukrainian law ban the Russian language? Remember I have access to the actual law,....as do you although actual data seems immaterial to you.

I wonder what would happen if a Russian drone were to zigzag above the Gulf of Mexico ?

Oh what really?
- you have a computer?
- with the 'internet' too?
Oh gee whizz that's amazing.
I wish everyone could have one of those things.
I've always dreamt of trying one out.

- If Russian is banned from all government and public institutions then how do those people get any kind of representation or help when dealing with any of them?

"Remember I have access to the actual law"
Wow, you must be very proficient with these new computer gadget thingys...

- So did you read the section that states all Ukrainian citizens have a duty to learn the Ukrainian language and have 12 months to do so?
- I told you numbnut, I've read it too, the 2019 dated version.
They may have had much harsher law changes relating to language in 2014 after the Maidan,
- And their aspirations to join the EU forced them to wind it back, I'm not sure.

You want to know what makes me sad today?
It's not the hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded military in Banderastan. (on both sides)
- Or even the innocent people forced to live and die under the bombs.

It's the price everyone else on the planet has had to pay for this mess.

Businesses shutting their doors because they can't afford the electricity bills,
Mum and Dad business that busted their asses for years to build something,
People who've lost their jobs and livelihoods,
People who've lost their homes they struggled to get,
People freezing in the winters.
People in third world countries driven to starvation,
Kid's that were forced to go without,
Old people dropping off because they can't afford to run the air conditioners.
Whole economies destroyed.
People driven to dispair.

- All of which are the follow on effects of this stupid damn war -

All because the US neocons love to go and screw with other peoples countries.
Conducting coloured revolutions and using sanctions
Using money and trade as weapons of war.
Blowing up energy pipelines - which were peoples lifelines.
(all to bolster their own failing economy)

US Sanctions against Russia have prompted a western banking exodus.

Saudi Arabia has said the if US uses price caps upon them, they will stop oil supplies to them.
http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Saudi-Arabias-Energy-Minister-Slams-NOPEC-Bill-And-Price-Caps.html

Indonesian President Jokowi desires a ban on Visa and Mastercard for local governments.
http://english.newstracklive.com/news/jokowi-desires-a-ban-on-visa-and-mastercard-for-local-governments-sc57-nu355-ta355-1270777-1.html

"I wonder what would happen if a Russian drone were to zigzag above the Gulf of Mexico ?"

OR, still to be confirmed a European weather balloon over Alaska!

The distance from Istanbul to Moscow is about 2300km, about 500km more than the distance from Havana to Washington.

Who went "apeshit" and threatened WWIII, when the communists wanted to put nuclear missiles in Cuba, pointing them at America, after the Americans had already put nuclear missiles in Turkey, pointing them at Russia?

Who tried to "invade" Cuba with a band of ex-criminals. That was one of Americas best. Here's another;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5WJJVSE_BE

I didn't know that the Russian language had been banned in Ukraine - probably because I'm not that interested; but I couldn't help hearing in the MSM news that the little dictator has closed down Christian worship in what is left of Ukraine. It's own Orthodox religion is not to be practised. Religion gets a better go in Russia. Even Putin gives it lip service.

I understand that this thread keeps limping on because nothing new is happening, but no matter what you think of Russia, try to remember that Russia is defending its border against not only Ukraine but now, quite obviously, the West which is aiding corrupt Ukraine which Putin called 'Nazi' for its activities during WW11. Apart from providing troops to the Reich, it also provided some of the very worst of guards for Nazi concentration camps.

Ukraine is not deserving of anyone’s sympathy, nor military aid - particularly Australia's aid when we can't defend ourselves.

The footage of the Su-27 and the US reaper drone clearly shows the Russian jet hit it, as suspected.

http://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/pentagon-shares-footage-of-the-alleged-moment-a-russian-fighter-jet-dumps-fuel-on-us-mq9-drone-before-they-collide/news-story/245e0556c1057ac5941810472361daef

- It's hard to say whether or not the drone changed it's course in any way moments prior to the collision though.

The US says it had the right to conduct 'routine operations' in international waters.

I myself think that whether it was in international waters or not, if it was doing reconnaissance and providing targeting data for the Ukrainians, which I think can be reasonable accepted, that it was a direct party to the conflict and a legitimate military target for Russia.

Also it was flying withing Russian ADIZ (Air defence Identification Zone) with it's transponder off, and take into account that these drones can be armed, then it most certainly was a direct party to the conflict and a military target.

Apparently, the most important part of the drone, apart from the physical drone itself was it's software.
If Russian's were able to get the software for the drone, they may be able to hack into and take control of all the US drones.
The US said it had deleted all of the onboard softward in the moments before it crashed into the Black Sea.

I heard that Russia had already retrived all of the drone parts but I take this claim with a grain of salt.

The US thinks it can do whatever it wants with full immunity.
They were acting as a direct party to the conflict, there's no immunity.

I also heard rumours that if Ukraine runs low on troops, that US may be considering putting boots on the ground as NATO forces, but Russia too, has not sent all of it's troops into combat yet.

Well we've made some progress with AC. We started off with him saying that the Ukrainians had banned the Russian language in their territory. AC has now learned that that piece of Russian propaganda was straight-up rubbish although there is zero chance he'll acknowledge it.

Many countries have formal rules around their nation tongue and require government business to be carried out in that tongue. Ukraine has done nothing out of the ordinary. Indeed Russia has that exact same rule which means that, according to AC, part of Russia's pretext for their imperialistic invasion is to punish Ukraine for doing exactly the same as Russia does. Double standards anyone? Still if these people didn't have double standards they'd have no standards at all. Indeed talking of double standards, Putin not so long ago, while trying to convince himself as much as anyone else, said the two languages were similar and merely had “regional language peculiarities”.

Of coarse the whole thing is a storm in a teacup. The two languages are so similar that a speaker of one can easily learn to carry on conversations in the other. It'd be like one of us moving to Glasgow and being forced to speak in the Scottish dialect

The US drone was in international airspace, and the actions of Russian aircraft were videoed. There will be consequences.

The Russian language was never "banned" in Ukraine. The Ukrainian language was declared the official Language. There is an enormous difference.

Russia is losing this war.

You two are really are like 'dumb and dumber'.

"The US drone was in international airspace, and the actions of Russian aircraft were videoed. There will be consequences."
- I think you two are just begging to get WWIII started.

Doesn't matter the drone was engaged in an act of war by spying on Russian targets.

If that was a Russian drone flying in international waters off the Coast of America during a time of war collecting targeting information on sensitive US targets to give it to the Chinese so that they could kill Americans, you can bet both testicles the US would shoot it down.

C'mon Mr Ukrainian constitution language expert, did you go find the document and read the part where Ukrainian citizens are required to learn the Ukrainian language within 12 months?
- Or did you not actually read it?

Bakhmut will fall soon, it's only a matter of time and dead Ukrainians.
I hear Russians are running around right in front of them and there's nothing they can do except chuck rocks because they are completely out of ammo.
And Russia has fire control over all roads in and out.
- And they don't have enough troops to pull off a successful counteroffensive.
So much for Zelensky's big US Congress speech.

Go worship your hero, Stepan Bandera.

"did you go find the document and read the part where Ukrainian citizens are required to learn the Ukrainian language within 12 months?"

Did I find the document? Wow, your chutzpah is boundless. I FOUND it AND showed it to you. You were unaware of it prior to that. Wow!

No I didn't see any section that required citizens to learn Ukrainian. Just another thing you made up or misunderstood.

I also didn't see the part where Russian was banned. Because no such thing exists. That of coarse was your original assertion although you are trying very hard to forget that now.

Well I'm not sure what document you were talking about or whether or not you even added a link to it, but this was the one I looked at.
You'll have to copy and paste the link as taking off the 's' in 'https' doesn't work for this translated page link.

THE LAW OF UKRAINE - On ensuring the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the state language

https://zakon-rada-gov-ua.translate.goog/laws/show/2704-19?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Text

Looks like the section I read had to do with citizenship and applied specifically to people who were granted citizenship for doing military service and gained a temporary exemption.

"Article 7. Obligation to speak the state language for acquiring Ukrainian citizenship

1. A person who intends to acquire Ukrainian citizenship must certify the appropriate level of proficiency in the state language.

Persons who have outstanding merits for Ukraine, including foreigners and stateless persons who, in accordance with the procedure established by the legislation of Ukraine, undergo military service in the Armed Forces of Ukraine and have been awarded a state award, and persons whose acceptance into Ukrainian citizenship is in the state interest of Ukraine, have the right to acquire Ukrainian citizenship without certifying the level of proficiency in the state language. Such persons are obliged to master the state language at the level determined by the legislation within one year from the date of acquisition of citizenship."

- In any case, the purpose of all these language laws is to remove the Russian language from Ukraine, despite the fact that a large part of the country speak Russian.

The idiot Albanese has just announced that we have an "obligation" to help Ukraine because, he says, "they are fighting for us". What an ignorant tosser that man is.

Well, Well, Well.
Looks like the Russians have themselves a US Reaper Drone.

American drone lost in Black Sea found near main Russian base in Crimea
http://news.yahoo.com/american-drone-lost-black-sea-133142411.html

"The American MQ-9 Reaper UAV, which fell into the Black Sea due to the actions of a Russian fighter jet, was located near the Russian base in Sevastopol.

Analysts compared the coastline in the video with Google Earth data and came to the conclusion that "it is most likely the area southwest of Sevastopol." The publication cited US data that the MQ-9 Reaper was in neutral airspace, that is, at least 22 km from the coastline.

Thus, the American drone really got close to the base of the Russian Federation, and at the same time could conduct optical reconnaissance thanks to the cameras. Not only the main naval base of the Russian Federation, but also the air bases near Sevastopol, in particular Belbek a military airfield in Sevastopol, were in the drone’s field of view."

Zelenskyy on anniversary of Russian attack on Mariupol Drama Theatre: "ruscism" will not go unpunished
http://news.yahoo.com/zelenskyy-anniversary-russian-attack-mariupol-204800924.html

"Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy marked the anniversary of the Russian bombing of Mariupol Drama Theatre, saying that Ukraine will bring its perpetrators to justice."

Source: President Zelenskyy’s video address
http://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/usi-rashisti-vidpovidatimut-za-kozhne-zabrane-ukrayinske-zhi-81653

"A year ago, Russian forces committed one of the worst crimes of this war. Russian bombs destroyed a theatre in Mariupol. A building that was used as a shelter. There were women with children, pregnant women, and the elderly there. A civilian target was deliberately destroyed by the occupation forces. We still don't know the exact number of fatalities. Hundreds of people? A thousand?"

Shut your dirty filthy lying mouth Zelensky.
- YOU killed those women and kids.

What REALLY Happened At The Mariupol Drama Theatre.
http://youtu.be/cKlgBw8mQhs?t=1670

But hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Especially when the Wests narrative is 'Get Putin'
- Lying POS.

AC wrote: "Well I'm not sure what document you were talking about or whether or not you even added a link to it,"

See my post on this thread dated Sunday, 12 March 2023 11:51:20 AM. I'm not surprised that you missed the link since you really aren't interested in anything that doesn't confirm your beliefs.

AC wrote: "Looks like the section I read had to do with citizenship..."

Well that looks like a strange way to admit that the thing you've been confidently asserting as unassailable fact for weeks is indeed total BS, but alas....

Just to make the point again, AC based his belief that Ukraine had banned the Russian language on a statement from Russian foreign minister Lavrov who AC asserted wouldn't lie. Now that he knows Lavrov lied, will AC now take the words emanating from the Kremlin with a grain of salt? Yeah, sure! Oh look up there, a flock of pigs flying by.

AC,

The drone may have been spying, but as it was well into international waters the attack on the drone could be seen as an act of war. How do you think this plays out in the US when deciding which weapons and how much to send to Ukraine?

I see that the ICC has issued an arrest warrant for Putin for war crimes.

I also see that Russia's output of tanks is 20 new T90s and 7 refurbished T62s a month. All this while they are losing 150 tanks a month.

Russia's budget deficit is now between $25bn and $40bn. Its reserves are about $400bn. Do the maths.

Russia's offensive has petered out with trivial gains and huge losses. Russia cannot continue fighting indefinitely and is losing this war

"The drone may have been spying, but as it was well into international waters the attack on the drone could be seen as an act of war."

It wasn't just spying, it was providing targeting information>
Which is all good and fine, the US can side with Ukraine, but they can't not say they're an active participant in the war.
I head Shoigu gave the Su-27 pilots medals.

"How do you think this plays out in the US when deciding which weapons and how much to send to Ukraine?"
I know they've already sent a replacement Reaper to continue the surveillance.
- Depends if they listen to Lindsay Graham and the other hawkish voices whether they decide on a direct confrontation with Russia, I think Poland is sending about 29 Mig 29's to Ukraine.
The US might support another load of cash and a new weapons shipment, but all this is deducing their own stockpiles.

"I see that the ICC has issued an arrest warrant for Putin for war crimes."
- Yeah that annoyed me actually, because I know it's a lie
- Well honestly I wasn't there, but I believe the eyewitnesses over the Ukrainian / Western war crimes narrative.

That the ICC and Amnesty is all in on it, makes me think they're all lying criminals and a greater war is certainly on the horizon at some point.

Also heard China is sending Russia weapons, though only assault rifles, body armour and drones.
http://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/16/chinese-rifles-body-armor-russia-ukraine-00087398

Xi will be in Moscow on Monday.

Blood-brothers Putin+Xi Jinping to meet in Moscow +sign IMPORTANT documents.
http://youtu.be/Ud_iEwie6y4

"Russia's offensive has petered out with trivial gains and huge losses. Russia cannot continue fighting indefinitely and is losing this war"

They haven't even started their new offensive yet.
I think they're holding out for better weather conditions of until after Bakhmut falls to the Russians, which won't be long.
Russian forces are quickly encirling Avdiivka too.

Ukraine warns Russia massing 500,000 troops on border for offensive
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/3841230-ukraine-warns-russia-massing-500000-troops-on-border-for-offensive/

I did hear something about the 'human waves' thing.
Russia is doing this to break the morale of Ukrainian defenders.
They don't even get time to rest or have a coffee, it continues 24/7.

Ukrainians copped a walloping in Kremmina a day or so back.
250 odd KIA in a single day there.
Ukraine may be losing 1000 KIA and wounded all told every single day some reports suggest.

The drone incident is a big yawn. It has even put the Republicans to sleep. A non-event if ever there was one. Give it a week, and it won't be mentioned.

It'd be very simple for a drone operator to nudge the fighter jet & blame it on the FJ Pilot !.
It'd be just as simple for the FJ Pilot to nudge the drone !
Ask me & I'd question the validity of the "Right" to send a US drone into that area. Would any Nation have the "Right" to fly drones around the Gulf of Mexico ?
I suppose China flies everywhere via Chinese made drones that every Tom, Dick & Harry bought off them because Western manufacturing can't build them.

AC,

According to your logic, it would be perfectly OK for the US to shoot down the Russian fighters in the same area. It is good that Putin is now officially a war criminal and takes his place alongside his peers such as Hitler and Stalin and can now be referred to as Putler.

The great Russian offensive has come and gone. The 500 000 have been and gone many of them fertilizing Ukrainian soil. The losses of more tanks, IFVs, planes helicopters lost this last month than Russia can replace in a year.

As for Ukrainian losses near Kreminna, your sources always get it wrong and have done so again. P.S. Remember a month ago when you claimed that Bakhmut was operationally encircled? Seems as though the Ukrainians are still using Bakhmut to massacre Russians.

I see that the Ukrainian counter-offensive is starting.

Russia is losing this war.

"According to your logic, it would be perfectly OK for the US to shoot down the Russian fighters in the same area."

- Yes under the right to collective self defense.
But that would be open warfare between Russia and America, and America only fights weak countries, like blowing up wedding parties and goat herders.
It'd be a nightmare for them seeing so many flag draped coffins coming home.

"It is good that Putin is now officially a war criminal..."
Stop lying Pinocchio.

Russian journalist gets six years for accusing Moscow of Mariupol theatre bombing
http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/russian-journalist-gets-six-years-for-accusing-moscow-of-mariupol-theatre-bombing/
"Kyiv accused Russia of bombing the theatre, while Russia said it had been blown up by Ukrainian nationalists."

They're parading all this on the back of the Mariupol Drama Theatre which was a false flag.
I showed you eyewitness accounts, but you have western blinkers on.
Here's the damn link again:
What REALLY Happened At The Mariupol Drama Theatre.
http://youtu.be/cKlgBw8mQhs?t=1670
[Completely consistent with Russian claims]

Same with Bucha, Ukrainians went on 'Safari' killing suspected Russian collaborators.
Special Forces Regiment SAFARI Begins Clearing Operation in Bucha from Saboteurs and Accomplices of Russia - National Police
http://en.lb.ua/news/2022/04/02/12441_special_forces_regiment_safari.html

And the residential buildings hit are either:
- Housing Ukrainian or Western military officers
(legitimate military target)
- Ukrainian military defense using residents as human shields
(legitimate military target for which they have form, see link below)
http://www.voanews.com/a/un-russia-and-ukraine-share-blame-for-nursing-home-attack-/6652481.html
- False flags by the Ukrainians themselves to blame on Russia
(They have form here too: false flag at Mariupol Drama Theatre)
- Missiles intercepted by air defense that came on on those residential buildings that were never aimed at those buildings.

Unlike Ukraine who's been indiscriminately bombing hospitals, kindergartens, cafes and anything else to cause terror on civilians in Donetsk for 9 years.

The talk of people being taken to Russia and held captive without passports is a lie.
I took a LIBERAL, ANTI WAR Protester to see the truth in Donbass, and THIS Happened!
http://youtu.be/0OysQ7yQl_o?t=2115

Did you want them to do leave orphaned kids under bombs when Ukraine was deliberately targeting civilians?
- And they voted to join Russia.

"The great Russian offensive has come and gone. The 500 000 have been and gone many of them fertilizing Ukrainian soil. The losses of more tanks, IFVs, planes helicopters lost this last month than Russia can replace in a year."

It was a Western sourced article from 6 weeks ago, quoting Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov, you really do live in La-la Land.

"As for Ukrainian losses near Kreminna, your sources always get it wrong and have done so again."

Here, you're so quick to point out 50 dead Russians left to rot in a paddock,
(and I don't usually post gory footage, not that this is that bad.)
Watch about 20 Ukrainians blown to pieces in about 2 minutes, footage posted yesterday.
http://twitter.com/GammonBadge/status/1636421470099259400
- You think they didn't keep hitting them after the clip ended?

Here's the report of 235 Ukrainians killed in a single day in Kreminna (reports come daily)
http://youtu.be/weJ4NDfIe2M?t=1002

Many Ukrainians seem to not support the war started by the idealism of a few. Those who stayed & fight obviously do support it.
I can't help feeling very sad for the many who are simply in the way through no fault of theirs.
The supply support of weapons by outsiders is prolonging the immense suffering of these innocent just so that they can weaken a Superpower.

This stuff seems to be getting out of hand.
Maybe it's just me, but you've got an international arrest warrant for Putin, a man in control of more nuclear bombs than anyone;
And you've got the head of RT implying any nation that tries to arrest him will get its capital city nuked.

Then you've got Zelensky, an actor and a comedian, and a demented nutcase called Biden who likes to sniff kids hair and rambles on with so much waffle it goes beyond gaffs, and more of a state of 'not all there',
(These 2 are going to start WWIII)
- and a heaps of warmongering US senators all so consumed and obsessed by Ukraine it borders on hysteria.

Then you have a general public so twisted by a media narrative brainwashing they're cheering a war with Russia and China on, like somehow in their screwed up minds they think the West can win.

NO-ONE IS GOING TO WIN
IF YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE DOING IT HARD NOW
Because of sanctions of Russia, a enormous commodity producer
WAIT TILL YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS ONCE THIS REALLY GETS GOING.

Like I said, maybe it's just me, but this crap seems to be getting out of hand.
If Nordstream wasn't a display of these people are capable of just about anything, then I just don't know what to expect next.

I'll tell you all something else too.
No-one is going to tell you this,
- and the sad part about it is that it should be OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE

A PEACEFUL WORLD DEPENDS ON US CHINA COOPERATION

While China's making peace in the world, and trying to build a better world with it's Belt and Road Initiative, the US lost any ability for real diplomacy, just sells weapons, sees other nations only as adversaries or vassal states, wants to control everything and everyone and make wars.

WELL, A REAL WORLD WAR IS COMING.

Putin stealing children?
Putin is rescuing children from being killed with the wests weapons

- You see how everything is all twisted up?

Here's some more shadowminister,
Looks like the same place.
http://twitter.com/narrative_hole/status/1637086378537230338

You think all this is a righteous cause?
- It's just indiscriminate killing

This arrest warrant against Putin means negotiations are no longer possible.
The west can't negotiate with an alleged war criminal.
This war will be found until one side achieves victory.

How many lives has this western sponsored overthrow of Ukraine cost?

Don't you love America?
Are you happy, are you pleased with yourself for supporting this?
I bet you can't wait to see this inflicted on the Taiwanese people too?

AC,

Rescuing children? What a disgusting lie. Up to 16000 children have been torn from their families and forcibly kidnapped and taken to Russia. If there was any pretence of protection their families would have been taken with them. Instead, these kids are either given to Russian parents or in schools where they are indoctrinated.

The War Criminal Putin and his henchmen need to face justice.

As for the Russian soldiers being massacred, this is war, the invaders are a legitimate target. Making Russians into fertilizer is not a war crime. Also, the 65 dead Russians were in a tiny section of the battlefield. The numbers of Russian dead were orders of magnitude larger than that. I have hundreds of videos of Russian soldiers being killed by artillery, drones, mines, snipers etc.

It looks like the Russians have retreated in Bakhmut over the last 3 days as Wagner has run out of men tanks and ammunition and the Russians are losing this war.

SM,

"I have hundreds of videos of Russian soldiers being killed by artillery, drones, mines, snipers etc." Do you swap em' with the like minded?

Hummmmm....Whatever turns you on! Are they rated MA? I assume so, not much on telly these day? Then you can use em' for entertainment when the little grand-kiddies pop in.

Hey mhaze,
"See my post on this thread dated Sunday, 12 March 2023 11:51:20 AM. I'm not surprised that you missed the link since you really aren't interested in anything that doesn't confirm your beliefs."
- Ah-yeah. Same one I was looking at, only I didn't use your link, sorry.

"Well that looks like a strange way to admit that the thing you've been confidently asserting as unassailable fact for weeks is indeed total BS, but alas...."
- Yeah fair enough, I got something wrong, but it doesn't necessarily change my argument, forcing people to only use the Ukrainian language in government institutions in no different to banning Russian, what many citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country use.

"Just to make the point again, AC based his belief that Ukraine had banned the Russian language on a statement from Russian foreign minister Lavrov who AC asserted wouldn't lie. Now that he knows Lavrov lied, will AC now take the words emanating from the Kremlin with a grain of salt? Yeah, sure! Oh look up there, a flock of pigs flying by."
- I don't necessarily think Lavrov has lied, there has been a ban on the Russian language in the country, only not necessarily in public.
And that doesn't give us the full story of what happened in 2014, Ukrainian natiionalists may or may not have proposed harsher language laws at that time, and wound them back to meet regulations relating to joining the EU.
Ultimately the purpose of these laws is to largely reduce the usage of the Russian language, otherwise there would have been no reason to write them in the first place.

"Rescuing children? What a disgusting lie. Up to 16000 children have been torn from their families and forcibly kidnapped and taken to Russia."

Yes shadowminister, you've figured it all out.
The whole entire war has just been a ruse.
The real purpose of the tanks and missiles and people shooting each other was purely for the purpose of kidnapping kids.

"If there was any pretence of protection their families would have been taken with them."
- Their families are probably dead.
The whole narrative is just that, a story.
Do you know why I know that?
The link below where they go to one of the places unannounced where people are given shelter.
They don't force them into slave labour, they don't take their passports, they're given food, a bed, a roof over their head, and probably schooling too if they're a child of school age.
They can stay as long as they want and leave when they want.
If kids are given to famililes to take care of it's just in the interests of the child, of course they're going to hold a Russian viewpoint of things IN RUSSIA.
There's nothing nefarious about it.

It's a nothingburger so fools like you can jump up and down screaming its a somethingburger.

I took a LIBERAL, ANTI WAR Protester to see the truth in Donbass, and THIS Happened!
http://youtu.be/0OysQ7yQl_o?t=2115

"Instead, these kids are either given to Russian parents or in schools where they are indoctrinated."

You seem to forget the places they were taken from voted to join Russia before they were taken.

You can call it 'illegal annexation' but I call it 'the right to self determination', from people who were bombed for 8 years by a US puppet regime.

Ukraine willfully bombed kindergardens and hospitals in Donetsk, they're only using this kids as a means to bring on this ICC thing, [quoting from a twitter post here] "The point is to make it for Putin and Russia in every aspect of life hard to breath, so that the numbers of people willing to risk "something" grows."

They don't give a crap about the kids, maybe a few Ukraine government do because it's an angle to start something, but it's all about a means to 'Get Putin'

Obama came into office in 2008, the war in Iraq went on till 2011, there were hundreds of thousands of civillians killed, many women and kids, then there was a war in Libya, then Syria, and the Maidan in 2014 and the coup in Turkey in 2016, don't forget sending arms to Saudi Arabia to kill Yemeni's;
- and Obama got the Nobel peace prize you nitwit.

This isn't about 'standing up for kids' it's about 'Putin hysteria'.
- You might be that dumb to believe this is about the welfare of kids but don't expect me to be that dumb.
It's not my fault if you can't see the bigger picture here.

"You seem to forget the places they were taken from voted to join Russia before they were taken."

Rubbish. Utterly illegitimate referenda were held but to say that these places freely voted to join Russia is just another one of those things AC chooses to believe in defiance of the facts.

AC

You are now lying outright. Most of the children were kidnapped before the phoney referendums. This is another version of ethnic cleansing.

The war criminal Putin will be held to account after his army and country are ruined.

Its for the good of the kids, dontcha know....

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/hitlers-lebensborn-children-kidnappings-in-german-occupied-poland/

To the War Supporters, and we have a few here.

My original question did not get a strong response. As a consequence of war people suffer the indignity of becoming REFUGEES, sometimes in the millions. Dispossessed by the war people find themselves homeless, fleeing the war zone without possessions, or a future. Are those here posting in favour of the war willing to go that extra mile and have Australia take in an additional one million Ukrainian refugees, on top of present numbers?

Yes, there would be an imposition on ordinary Australians, no denying that, but should we not make sacrifices for the greater good, as being partly responsible for creating the problem in the first place.

p/s, Our humanitarian concerns for the Uyghur people of China should also see us offering them a million places in Australia as humanitarian refugees on top of the million Ukrainian, and all other refugees. With the situation as grim as it is now, these refugees should be taken in as soon as possible.

I think some are gung-ho when it comes sending weapons of war to Ukraine, or berating China about the Uyghurs, but will be cold on the idea of making any real personal sacrifice in support of those people effed by our weapons of war, or our humanitarian concerns.

You lot are probably a lot older than me.
Do you remember the cold war?
Is it your fear of the soviets or your fear of nuclear war which drives you?
I think people like yourselves really need to think about that.
You won't listen, and you can't be reasoned with.
You're only a couple of people, but I imagine there's tens of millions more just like you, and that's what worries me.
Remember that 'duck and cover' stuff, and fallout shelters?
I fear the world is being driven towards nuclear war by people just like you.
Do you really understand what's at stake?
- There's no nuclear missile treaties anymore.

Hi Paul,
- 15 million people have fled Ukraine to other countries since Russia invaded under the right of collective self defense of Russian speaking people.
If those 15 million people found a reason to leave Ukraine, then why is Russia taking kids out of a warzone considered a crime?
It really shows me that people will lap up whatever they're spoonfed by the US government, elites and the deepstate and a complicit media and are incapable of listening to reason, no matter the consequences.

They won't even listen when you say the path were heading down will make nuclear war inevitable.
They obviously want that.

There's no chance of a negotiated settlement now.

They're worried about the welfare of Russian speaking Ukrainian kids taken from a warzone attacked by western weapons, and now they've just signed of on their support of hundreds of thousands more dead, possibly a whole lot more if this escalates to global nuclear war.

Hi AC,

Hear, hear, I totally agree with your above. Look at history and see the similarities with today, pre-1914, the build up of alliances and militarism invariably let to world war. Germany (China) at the time an emerging world power had one real ally in the Austro-Hungarian Empire (Russia) which also felt threatened by other world powers. Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire seen war with France (America) and its allies as a certainty. The spark came when a minor ally of France, Serbia (Australia) committed an act that was an excuse for two of the three members of the Triple Alliance to go to war with the three members of the Triple Entente. Then most of the world was drawn into the "nuclear" war of the time!

Even if I showed them footage of Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister saying the US was trying to stage a coup in 2013
- organised out of the US embassy in Kiev
Even if I showed them footage of Victoria Nuland saying they spent 5 billion on the coup.
Even if I showed them footage of Right Sector saying they shot up Maidan protesters as a policy of the West
Even if I showed them the phone calls of Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pratt deciding on the new leader
Even if I showed them policy documents by the West saying the way to beat Russia was to overthrow Ukraine
Even if I showed them reasonably good testimony that the war crimes Russia is accused of were false flags
Even if I showed them aspects of international law and how the West left Russia no choice
Even if I showed them that Russia first tried for internal right to self determination but it was never honoured
Even if I try to make arguments based on common sense they just don't listen.

They want to escalate, no matter the cost.
For what purpose, I just do not understand.

The worst part of it all is these people are supposed to be Trump supporters, and even he is starting to say many of the right things.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2023/03/16/trump_every_day_this_proxy_battle_in_ukraine_continues_we_risk_global_war.html

Well AC and sidekick, yet again you show an ability to understand nuance. Nowhere on these or other pages have I said I favour Ukraine in this war.

The problem for dills like AC (we'll get to Paul soon) is that they have this binary view of the world - if you oppose Russia, if you don't fall for every moronic utterance from their propaganda machine (as he does) then you must be all in for Ukraine. No other possibilities enter his one-sided understanding of issues.

I have said previously that I rather treat this war like Kissinger treated the Iran-Iraq war where he said "“It's a pity both sides can't lose”.

My main beef with AC is his utter disregard for the facts while pompously claiming to be the fount of all facts. eg his claims about banning the Russian language where he was forced to finally slink away in defeat (I was going to say shame, but I don't think that's in AC's make-up).

As regards the war, I'm opposed to providing Ukraine with any more support. Everything the west can get from this war has been obtained. Russia has been shown to be a paper tiger. Europe has been yanked out of its idiotic reliance on Russian supplies. Scandinavia has woken up to the Russian menace and will join NATO. Europe is rearming and Poland is on track to becoming the largest army in Europe and capable by itself of dealing with the incompetent Russians.

The most disgraceful aspect of AC's assertions (apart from his MH17 bastardry) is his constant claims that Ukraine and the west should surrender because Russia threatens to use its nukes. If the US made such threats, AC would be the first to call them out for their misanthropy. But its fine when Putin does it.

AC isn't interested in peace or justice or a safe world order. His only concern is victory (such as it is) for the totalitarians he so admires

As to Paul, he's continues the policy of the peaceniks over the decades.

It is now well known and documented that the so-called peace movements of the 1960's calling for peace in Vietnam were in fact funded, often fully funded, by Comintern out of Moscow. Their aim was a communist victory and the useful idiots were used to achieve that. They thought they were protesting for peace, when in fact they were protesting for the enslavement of the Vietnamese people.

He claims to be in favour of peace, but in fact is in favour of a peaceful victory for the totalitarians. Want peace? Well call for Russia to withdraw. That'd bring peace. But that's not the peace he favours. A peace following a Russian victory is his heart's desire.

So let Russians and Ukrainians duke it out. Let Russia have their pyrrhic victory and then spend the next 30 years trying to combat a Ukrainian guerrilla uprising. Let them spend the next 30 years dealing with the ramifications of a newly energised Europe prepared to face them down. Let them do this while they slowly become a vassal state of the equally declining Han Empire.

But spare us this false virtue of claiming to be pro-peace when in fact you're just pro-Russia or, more precisely, anti-freedom.

Liar mhaze, you will not find one word on this thread, or on this site, where I support Russia in this terrible war. If peace can be brought about by Russia withdrawing then I say; RUSSIA WITHDRAW!

Peaceniks? really, "It is now well known and documented that the so-called peace movements of the 1960's calling for peace in Vietnam were in fact funded, often fully funded, by Comintern out of Moscow." Well known by whom? The often lying CIA, the old dead corpse of your folk hero Ronnie Reagan, or the Yankee sycophant YOU! Got any evidence!

Standard operating procedure there from Paul. Whenever he's presented with facts he'd prefer not be true, he screams for evidence. This is of course from the bloke who explicitly advised Foxy against providing evidence. And always, always, when given the evidence he hurried changes the subject and proceeds to ignore it..... nothing must interfere with his warped world view.

Evidence?

Its true that most of it came from western sources....UNTIL the collapse of Paul's beloved USSR and the opening of their archives which confirmed the truth.

eg the World Peace Council was fully run by the Soviets. Their archives confirm it. The council in turn funded and/or established organisations like International Institute for Peace, International Organization of Democratic Lawyers, International Union of Students,
World Federation of Trade Unions and a bunch more. Records show that the Soviets gave more than $1 billion to US peace movements during the Vietnam War - more than they gave the VietCong!!

Paul loves virtue signalling because it is the best way to cover up his cluelessness.

Yes, Russia withdrawing from Ukraine can stop the war so start shouting instead of mumbling platitudes like a moron.

Again the term "moron" is freely used by an extreme far right poster, no doubt he will be given his usual site impunity from the "moderator".

mhaze, you give a so called example of Soviet involvement in supporting the peace movement, something that can't be substantiated as the only source was the American CIA, with their "opening of the archives" I say BS, and there are no independent sources for what you claim. But you stick with the fabrication, it suits your hard right war philosophy.

Pauliar,

I didn't call you a moron, I said that you talk like one which is the truth.

You call me extreme right-wing because I call out your lies. However, I am against racism while you promote it which makes you more right-wing than me in some regards.

The easiest way to stop a war is to make the cost to the aggressor unbearable. Nuclear subs armed with torpedoes and cruise missiles can do that in a way that a few batteries with anti-ship missiles along our 40 000km long coastlines cannot.

You virtue signal that you want peace as if no one else does. Russia is clearly the aggressor and does not want peace and is committing every atrocity in the book. It is becoming increasingly clear that peace will not be achieved until Russia's ability to wage war is smashed.

Finally, you and another simpleton are decrying the "rules-based order" as if it were imposed by the US and if there were any viable alternatives. Most of laws did not come from the US and are based on treaties long before the US became the power it is today. The only alternative to order is chaos.

SM,

Most modern wars are the result of US covert operations of destabilisation, Ukraine is no exception. By funding of disaffected groups in foreign countries, the US is able to manipulate events to their advantage. mhaze makes the "shock" allegation that "that the Soviets gave more than $1 billion to US peace movements during the Vietnam War ", the CIA have a budget of over $80 billion per year! Can cause lots of havoc in the world with $80 billion!

And I for one is sick of the hypocritical tish-tosh from the likes of Biden, and now from our own sycophantic politicians with the nonsense about "rules based order". When it suits these warmongers there are no rules, and no order. Where has that old cliche of we are fighting for "freedom and democracy" in that far off land? They are free to be poor, and can democratically elect to die for American imperialism!

Paul claims: "you will not find one word on this thread, or on this site, where I support Russia in this terrible war."

and that's kinda, sorta, true. But all his criticisms are reserved for the US et al. I don't think he understands nor could understand that solely criticising one side is tantamount to supporting the other.

Paul, utterly misunderstanding the written word, thinks that the Soviet archives were somehow opened by the CIA. I'll explain again. Lot's of evidence that the Soviets supported much of the so-called peace movement existed before the fall of the USSR, but, as we see here, the Soviet apologists could always dismiss that evidence, no matter how tight, as being western propaganda. But after the fall of the USSR, the Russian archives were opened to Russian historians who confirmed much of what had been previously said. But mere facts are unacceptable to Paul, even when he understands them.

http://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/march-1994/accessing-the-archives-of-the-former-soviet-union

mhaze

I read your article, very murky stuff, the Russian Archivist, seem they will sell anything you like to the highest bidder, and the CIA have lots of hard cash to bid with. I'm sure these archivist can provide all the "evidence" you want, providing you have the dosh to pay for it. Look, they even have Hitlers skull for sale, all 10 of them! There is not one word mentioning Soviets = Peace Movement = Money. Where is your evidence.

"Last year, an American research center agreed to provide the Communist Party archives with about $25,000"." American research center", what reseach centre, a euphemism for the CIA.

Paul,

Now you are just lying and spouting bullsh1t conspiracy theories. There is no evidence whatsoever that the US funded the uprising in 2014. The US funded about $5bn from 1992 to build infrastructure that had been neglected while part of the USSR.

The protests started when the corrupt president Yanukovych wanted to take Ukraine away from committing to an FTA with the EU to trade primarily with Russia clearly for personal profit and was looking to drag Ukraine into autocracy. It would be impossible for the US to drum up the 100 000s of protesters. The violence started after the government started shooting protesters.

As for the "rules based order" Rules are required, the alternative is chaos. As for breaking treaties that they have signed, Russia and China are the worst culprits.

Yeah Paul I get it.

70 years of Soviet archived data invalidated because the yanks provided some funds to help analyse the archive.

The archives tell you things you'd prefer weren't true and any excuse to ignore them will do. Which of course explains why you are so historically challenged.

Hi mhaze,

"Europe has been yanked out of its idiotic reliance on Russian supplies."
I'm curious about this, why is it important to stop european reliance on Russian energy?
Isn't what's best for the Europeans themselves whats really important?
Sure the US can sell more oil and LNG now at a much higher price, but European economies are in the toilet, businesses are closing their doors and consumers are paying much more, 6 time the price for LNG.
"...Ukraine and the west should surrender because Russia threatens to use its nukes. If the US made such threats..."
-If the Chinese had conducted an overthrow of Mexico and installed a pro-Chinese friendly regime and armed that regime to the teeth and started killing Mexicans that didn't go along with it, and America came into the conflict in support of those Mexicans and said they were going to nuke the Chinese-lead government of Mexico, I'd be supporting the US.
I'd be against the Chinese and supporting the US, saying there was a risk of nuclear war.
- And saying the Chinese are not respecting the United States legitimate security concerns, and that the U.S were right to not want to tolerate Chinese nukes on their border.

"AC isn't interested in peace or justice or a safe world order."
- That's simply not true.

Vietnam was started because of a lie.
http://allthatsinteresting.com/gulf-of-tonkin
What's more there were many US servicemen left in captivity in Vietnam due to non payment of reparations.
http://veteransforcommonsense.org/2008/09/21/senator-mccain-and-the-vietnam-war-prisoner-of-war-cover-up/
"Included in the evidence that McCain and his government allies suppressed or sought to discredit is a transcript of a senior North Vietnamese general’s briefing of the Hanoi politburo, discovered in Soviet archives by an American scholar in 1993. The briefing took place only four months before the 1973 peace accords. The general, Tran Van Quang, told the politburo members that Hanoi was holding 1,205 American prisoners but would keep many of them at war’s end as leverage to ensure getting war reparations from Washington."

"World Peace Council was fully run by the Soviets. Their archives confirm it."

Let's say that's true, I don't know that it is, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a minute.
- The US has been doing the same exact stuff in countries all over the world for decades.
What about Ukraine, Myanmar, Thailand, Georgia stuff going on right now.
"International Institute for Peace, International Organization of Democratic Lawyers, International Union of Students"
- You want me to believe the soviets funded democratic movements and student protest groups?
- That's a big stretch, I'd have to see the evidence to believe that.
That's the Wests MO.

I oppose sanctions and overthrows, so I'd oppose those coups no matter which side was conducting them.
I believe that a nation should manage its own affairs free from foreign influence.
- And I don't think trade should be used as a weapon, it's collective punishment.

Hey shadowminister,
"Yes, Russia withdrawing from Ukraine can stop the war so start shouting instead of mumbling platitudes like a moron."

China has changed their stance.

West alarmed as Xi tweaks China's position on war; Putin-Jinping hold marathon talks | Watch
http://youtu.be/4qkwCVQPaMo
"Moscow uses Xi Jinping's visit to warn west of a bigger war & possible 'lethal' support from China, which could be a replication of arms supply to Ukraine"
Didn't I tell you this would happen?
That China would not allow Russia to lose.
Russia and China's plans to de-dollarise and support each other are too important.
- Looks like China is willing to take the next step if the West does not stop arming Taiwan.
"The Chinese President Xi Jinping has even tweaked Beijing's formal position on Ukraine war by effectively siding with Moscow on 'Special Operations'."
"China's Official position on Ukraine war:
Old Position = Respect the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries
New Position = Respect legitimate security concerns of all countries"

- Putin and Jinping are discussing China's Ukraine peace plan.
"This visit is a signal for the west to stop pumping weapons into Ukraine and push Kiev to come to the negotiating table"
- Also, I can tell you that Ukraine is extremely important to China because of their Belt and Road Initiative.

Hi AC,

"I believe that a nation should manage its own affairs free from foreign influence."

Not according to SM, if a country wants an independent policy and self determination with its own affairs, and that action is not serving American interest then "regime change" is the order of the day. According to SM; "President Yanukovych wanted to take Ukraine away from committing to an FTA with the EU to trade primarily with Russia" Seems that was not serving America's interest, so Yanukovych had to go. SM said this Yanukovych was corrupt, I don't know. America has no problem with supporting corrupt governments that are serving their interest, Marcos in the Philippines is an example of a corrupt leader supported by the US, there are many others

The 'rules-based order' and international law are not the same thing.
Who went to jail for non existent WMD's and killing Journalists?
- I'll tell you who, Julian Assange.
Certainly no-one in the US government.

"I don't think he understands nor could understand that solely criticising one side is tantamount to supporting the other."
- I'm not sure that you understand that it's not.
Just because Paul critices the West, doesn't mean he doesn't also criticise China for the Ugyhurs.

I often criticise democracy, but that doesn't mean I want communism.

I support Russia and China because I believe the world would be a better place multi-polar, if countries stayed out of other countries internal affairs, respected their security concerns,
- I don't support sanctions or overthrows.

Pauliar,

Once again you lie through your teeth.

Apparently, Pauliar is against letting people protest against the crappy decisions of their government and for the shooting of peaceful protesters.

That Yanukovych was highly corrupt is not in dispute, in fact, he was impeached by the Ukraine government 328-0 for just that. The violent revolt against Yanukovych started only after he got snipers to shoot and kill up to 50 protesters.

Once again Pauliar is a shill for a dictator.

None of this was orchestrated by the US.

SM and AC

Are you not pleased that our "dear friend" President Xiey Poo, he is our dear friend cause he buys sh!t loads of dirt from use, which keeps us in the lifestyle we are accustomed to, is with our not so "dear friend" President Vladdy Poo talking "peace". I'm not sure which "piece" of Ukraine Xiey Poo wants to give to Vladdy Poo, but I think the problem could be solved if Vladdy Poo was to also buy sh!t loads of dirt from us as well, then he would once more be our "dear friend".

BTW, important question; Have you noticed all the beautiful furniture President Vladdy Poo has in his house. I don't think he got it from 'Ikea', do you think he shops on 'Gumtree' and 'Marketplace'?

p/s Have you noticed our other bestest newest "dear friend" President Volly Poo from Ukraine is always dressed in the same outfit, me thinks the poor sod is spending all the countries dosh on guns, and is forced to shop at 'Vinnies', me thinks we should send him a few tanks, and some new clobber, so he can look formal when he's begging and crying for more weapons from us. What do you think?

AC writes:- You want me to believe the soviets funded democratic movements and student protest groups?
- That's a big stretch, I'd have to see the evidence to believe that."

So go and check it out. Start here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_influence_on_the_peace_movement

and then expand your research using the links provided.

Alternatively just refuse to believe what you don't want to be true.

Paul,

I see you have been smoking fat ones again.