RobP,

You need to go read some history on the establishment of the Vatican city state. It wasn't imposed by military force or economic power, as you imply, but was established only in 1929 following negotiations between the Italian republic and the Holy See, which is not a nation. Vatican City is less than half a square kilometre and has a permanent population of about 800, a huge reduction in power from the days of the Papal States.

To suggest that the Holy See, an ecclesiastical entity, imposed this situation on the Italian republic is nonsense.

The original posts on this article revealed ignorance and bigotry, attributing to the Pope influence on human population growth which is demonstrably false. Read my original post.

Then tell me what influence the Pope has on the behaviour of populations in Africa, the former Soviet Union, China, India, Japan, the Middle East, the Hindu and Buddhist nations of south-east Asia, or Indonesia. These countries account for the great bulk of world population. His influence, such as it is, is marginal.

He has some, perhaps, in the Philippines and some South American nations, but not undisputed, as the various communist revolutionary movements in those places attest.

Yet when challenged, the commenters have slithered away into the dark corners of supposition and paranoia.

Conspiracy theories are no substitute for fact

KenH,

>>Several commenters since then have tried to fudge the issue, claiming that well, no, the Pope's comments would have little or no effect on GLOBAL population increase, but might on local populations from here or there.

That's the sort of fundamental, bigotted dishonesty against which I have argued.<<

Why is that bigoted? The Church is still a large contributor in their own right. When I said what I did about it, I was being honest, not tricky. I do not believe the Church today is in control of global population (because the GP has grown too big), but that IN THE PAST they very definitely had a hand in manipulating such policies, which have fed and multiplied into today's world reality. AND they are still very much a contributor today. What is so hard to understand about that? Drop the veil from your own eyes.
Your argument is moving the goalposts by pretending the past never happened and focussing only on the present.

>>I have no interest in defending the Catholic Church against anything but the stupidly bigotted comments of people who try to attribute vast, conspiratorial power to the Pope and the Church with nary a fact to declare.<<

(TBC)

(Cont)

Read my post again, I've already implied that this particular Pope is not responsible for the sins of the past. However, let's look at a contemporary issue - the exposure of past physical brutality and paedophilia in the Church. In the light of such events, a real Christian leader would instantly issue instructions to his clergy that this type of activity must not be tolerated or excepted from sanction by the RC system. Like his predecessors, this Pope has not really taken a leadership position but allowed the situation to drift whilst opportunistically positioning the Church so that it's cast in the best light. The Church, on this and many other issues, can be summed up as plenty of talk but no action – a classic case where Church as business trumps Church as properly practising institution. This disconnect between theory and practice is, in itself, a fundamental departure from true Christian values.

Re facts: the problem with facts is that for every fact there is another that shows something different. Following your nose via facts is rather like a dog chasing its tail: it can go on forever with very little being achieved.

The reasons for the Church's problems are many and, by and large, not his fault personally. One thing I will say for Benedict is that he has the potential to do good things. I hope he does. Only time will tell whether he does or not.

*Then tell me what influence the Pope has on the behaviour of populations in Africa, the former Soviet Union, China, India, Japan, the Middle East, the Hindu and Buddhist nations of south-east Asia, or Indonesia.*

Ah Kenny, before you debate these things, you really should do a bit
of homework. The Vatican openly admits to political activity and
lobbying globally to campaign against modern family planning.

This subject has been debated for the last 35 years or so, when
some people realised that overpopulation would become a major problem.

If the UN had acted then as was proposed, things would look quite
different today. Instead the Vatican has stymied most global efforts,
by very clever lobbying. For they knew that it would be
just about impossible to do much, without US money and political
will and Catholics have enough political power in the US, to
majorly influence US politics, thus family planning efforts
globally.

People like Mumford have gathered together some of this data, but
you need to bother to inform yourself, not just call it a conspiracy
theory. After all, I have seen no Vatican claim that its not true.

http://www.population-security.org/

.