Nice sounding words. But what is the reality? - the Vatican's own fertility rate sets about the right example for what is urgently needed throughout the planet.

Nothing whatsoever on human population size or growth. No balance. No sense of sustainability.

This message from the Pope is worse than nothing, because it sends the message that people across the world can continue to breed in an unmitigated manner.

It is also interesting that many right-wing catholics who otherwise think that Benedict (see foot-note) is the answer to all of the ills or the world in 2009 and beyond, are fully paid up subscribers to the anti-green cause, and big-time boosters of let it rip never-ending growth/expansion of the current system, namely capitalism

Capitalism as the ultimate expression of gods "plan" for humankind. God is the ultimate "creator"--capitalism encourages creativity therefore capitalism MUST be part of "gods" purpose and plan.

Some even wax lyrical about the "spirit" of capitalism.

The green-"religion" as paganism or the latest phase/development in the Marxist inspired anti-capitalism movement--having become environmentalists as a substitute for the collapse of communism.

footnote: their websites are full of Benedict and what he has to say as the ONLY answer to all the rotten-ness of the modern age, especially the confusions caused by the postmodern assault on the bed-rock foundations of Western "civilization".

Okay.. so when does he sell off the Popemobile and the Gucci shoes, rent out the Vatican and all the other palaces to the poor and start selling condoms in Africa? Words are cheap.

We all care what the pope says, or at least those who believe in the Vatican & the supporting media's lies do. We believe so much in hearing the Pope deny the claims of child sex abuses for the sake of damaging the churches image, we allow them to continue ownership of charity organizations that look after the welfare of preschools & education, or at least Kevin Rudd does. Just reading the commentary here, I can see just how much everyone believes what the Pope say's & just how much the Popes lies determine their judgment towards him.

When the money grabbing Italian institution is elected as our governing body, I might pay some attention to the policies he's trying to sleaze under our diverted attention but until then I will consider him & the Vatican, as a pack of slimy child molesters.

Yawn, more Vatican spin from Ratzinger. I guess he needs to say
something to impress his diminishing flock and pretend that he cares.

In reality the pope should be charged with environmental degradation
as no organisation on this earth has done more to stifle modern
family planning, then his Vatican organisation.

It took the Vatican something like 400 years to acknowledge that
Galileo was indeed correct. Perhaps it will take them another
400 years to acknowledge that an ever growing human population
is indeed the world's number 1 problem and his bleatings about
the environment are rather useless, given that he does not understand
biology 101.

The Pope really does need to get a handle on the population component of environmentalism.

And the world desperately needs to him to do it.

A good place for him to start would be to watch David Attenborough’s excellent new program: ‘How many people can live on planet Earth?’, which is available in six parts on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JypyASU8Aik

Ludwig, do realize what you actually said?

The people need the Pope to do it but he should watch David Attenborough in order to find out how.

What a contradictory religious minded statement. It would be better if the public watched David Attenborough & learned from the rel deal, rather than listening to a fool with an imaginary man in his head, rambling on about angels & demons, which in other words is religious mental illness.

Your statement highlights the fact that the Church are a copy cat organization that influence people with other peoples commentary & scientific evidence & the rest is all in their head.

Hi Atheistno1, atheistno2 here.

Yes of course, everyone who has the opportunity should watch Attenborough’s program. And the old Pope should be one of them.

Then of course he should take his message to the world, or the Catholic world, in line with Attenborough’s expression of concern about population issues.

The trouble is that hundreds of millions of people do listen to the Pope, and hundreds of millions won’t have the chance to get Attenborough’s message from a television set.

Simple really.

If the Pope was to come around to expressing concern about population growth and real sustainability, it would make a huge difference to our chances of achieving sustainability globally, before we are forced into it via enormous crash events.

Ludwig, in that context I can understand your what you are getting at.

Yes, unfortunately he has a dwindling following but it would be better if the population actually got an education rather than listen to an idiot raving on about lies he concocted.

The Pope and the Catholic Church don't tell people to go forth and populate. They do speak out against contraception and abortion, but they also speak out against promiscuity. To me, it seems that without having sex, people won't make babies and the world won't be overpopulated.

Blaming the Catholic Church for population issues is a bit odd. Essentially, it's saying that Catholics are devoted enough to their faith to follow the teachings on contraception, but not devoted enough to follow the teachings on self-control and sexual morality. I might add that, of the seven pregnant teenagers I worked with this year, none were Catholic. They just didn't use condoms because they didn't want to.

*To me, it seems that without having sex, people won't make babies and the world won't be overpopulated.*

Oto, it seems to me that on this topic, you are not the brightest
of little buttons :) I remind you that sex, particularly within
marriage, is natural, normal and part of human instinct. Crossing
your legs for Jesus has been a dismal failure, on a global scale.

There is a difference between the Catholic Church encouraging their
flock to do whatever and the Catholic Church, actively involved in
politics, making sure that people are denied contraception,
particularly the poor in the third world.

It is because of the Catholic Church in places like the Phillipines,
that some women pop em out like rabbits, denied family planning
because they are poor. The Vatican should be ashamed of itself.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/141973.php

http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=86068

.

Thanks for the insult, yabby. My point is simple. The Catholic Church issues doctrines as a package. You don't take some and leave some. If you're going to shun contraception because the church tells you to, then you should really follow the other teachings as well. I suspect that lack of access to contraception and lack of education are greater causes of unprotected sex than Catholic piety.

It is interesting that neither link you offered shows the Catholic Church "actively involved in politics, making sure that people are denied contraception, particularly the poor in the third world." They show representatives of the Catholic Church voicing their opinion on a political issue in a largely Catholic country - an opinion which, as one article implies, doesn't have much influence on the population (63% support the bill, despite 81% being Catholic). Perhaps you should credit people with an ability to think and make decisions. Not all people in third world countries are mindless drones.

*My point is simple. The Catholic Church issues doctrines as a package. You don't take some and leave some.*

Oto, you seemingly need to do your homework. If all those Catholics
in the West, who ignore Vatican teachings on family planning, left
the church, there would be very few left on those church pews.
People do in fact take some and leave some, as the statistics on
things like abortion and contraception, have shown.

The backward teachings of the church on these issues, IMHO is a
major reason why those Western Catholic churches are empty.

If you check up on Phillipines politics, you will find that
the Catholic Church is a major force. Threatening third world
people, who are less educated and perhaps more gullible, to Vatican
spin, with no ticket to heaven etc, is their form of blackmail.

The very laws denying the poor modern contraception, are a legal
enforcement of Catholic dogma. Catholics control many hospitals,
so even after many kids, women are denied the snip.

There are good reasons why the Vatican has a representative at the
UN. Catholic lobbying against third world family planning, has
be unrelenting.

I do give the Catholic spin machine credit for being great lobbyists,
behind the scenes, influencing Govt decisions. They certainly don't
deny that intention and are extremely active in much of the third world.

Its just a pity that the poor people of this world have to pay such
a heavy price. At least those of us in the West can basically
tell the church to get stuffed. Not so for the poor in the third
world, as those URLs showed.

Otokonoko, You have just given the classic example of the fork religious tongue & I don't think your dumb at all.

Yes they do speak out against one thing & enforce an ideology that condemns the very same thing. People can have sex without having babies, it's called the pill & imagine how many lives in third world countries it would have saved if the contraceptive was given to them, instead of creating charity to support their poor destitute & overpopulated lives. In all retrospect, the pope's vatican is an Italian institution that should have no bearing on any country. They have not been elected to govern & if it wasn't for the religious mental illness that dwindles amongst our politicians, they wouldn't have any bearing here.

The usual predictable pap in most of these comments.

Pope Benedict and the Catholic Church, don't need me, a real atheist, to defend them, and frankly I have little interest in the topic, but they are automatic targets for most of the mindless commenters here, part of the usual range of targets including "Western civilisation", "capitalism", George W. Bush and AGW deniers.

Are you so seriously stupid, ill-informed and detached from reality that you think the Pope has any influence over global population growth?

Please explain what role or influence the Pope or the Catholic Church have in China, India, Africa, the former Soviet Union, Japan and the Middle East - and even South America, which is hardly a uniformly traditional Catholic culture. His influence and that of the Catholic Church in these places is negligible. And these places account for the great bulk of the world's population.

Birth rates in Islamic communities in the West, too, far exceed the birth rates of the local Christian/agnostic/atheist populations, let alone Catholic components per se.

You idiots - including the clowns who pretend to be atheists - reveal more about your own vacuous lives and the fact that you see everything through the lens of your new green religion than you reveal about the Pope or the Catholic Church. Pathetic.

If population growth is such a problem to you, I presume most of the commenters here are childless and/or about to delete themselves from the gene pool. Or are you hypocrites, too?

NB: I use the word "idiots" with reference to the Stanford-Binet intelligence scale. Look it up.

I believe there is much merit in an:

Enigma-Deep Forest meditation.

Mmmm ...

It is nice knowing that whilst we can all agree to disagree on some things, that at times of need we can Unite on matters of import and urgency, putting Unity and Global interest before division and self interest.

..

Our "Patron Saint" of *Love Making* was oft and fond to say:

"Christ Unites ... " and that if ones Love ever becomes overly divisive and antagonistic that one really ought give re-consideration to One's "Luv Concept."

..

Alas, I knowingly digress but however, I had a restless night last night and got up again for a kopi and a think and a bit of IndoVision.

NatGeo had a doco on the Gospel of Yudas Iskariot, and had some interesting bits about the Gnostics aswell. I hadn't seen it before. Must go for a surf and see if I can find a "translated" copy.

I wonder if they have an earlier copy than the one in Koptic downstairs?

..

Such a wealth of talent in the world .. it is a shame to keep so much locked up.

*The failure of WHO to be able to do anything during this period to which I referred -- seven to nine years -- was clearly the result of the very effective job done by the Vatican and its representatives, not only at WHO but at meetings of the United Nations and other organizations.*

Oops KenH, you are so busy calling people names, that you seemingly
have not done even a bit of homework. The above comes from an
interview with somebody who worked for WHO for years:

http://www.population-security.org/29-APP3.html

They indeed have had a global influence, by going right to the top.

Some background to inform you further, if you'd like to download
and read a Panorama trancript:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/3147672.stm

Third world women have paid a heavy price for all this. Shame
on the Vatican.

>>This message from the Pope is worse than nothing, because it sends the message that people across the world can continue to breed in an unmitigated manner.<<

This is exactly what the Church wants - a bigger pool from which to snaffle up more adherents. The Church operates from a position of power and, not surprisingly, wants to stay there. It probably sees population increase as an opportunity to boost its numbers against other religions, such as Islam. So, they're on the population juggernaut too.

KenH,

I'm sure the Church has some influence in boosting global births. If Costello could do it in Oz with a glib one-liner, then the Church can do it too in some parts of the world. But by far its "greatest" quality is its ability to opportunistically spin a story so as to add to its flock.

As I said, idiots. Not wit between the lot of you.

KenH, in support of your comment's, just children is all they are. The more you try to talk sense, the more they submit nasty statements with sarcastic false niceties.

As I said mate, children, just pathetic no brain children & the equivalent of religious mental illness.

The green pope now I have heard everything.
This is the pope that encourages all good RC s to go forth and multiply.
I think his protection sentiment is misplaced.
Wonder what the Chinese think about this or the Indians?
And of course population doesn’t have any effect on carbon emission does it.
Apart from the hot air spewing forth from the greenhouse pope.
Hey, that’s a good idea.
Actually just keeps the Popes mouth shut that would stop at least one source of CO2
What a joke?

>>Are you so seriously stupid, ill-informed and detached from reality that you think the Pope has any influence over global population growth?<<

KenH,

Not global growth - at least not any more as the world's population has got too big now (hence my comment re the Church riding the juggernaut). But the Church still has influence on local growth in certain parts of the world, which is a feeder into global growth.

>>Please explain what role or influence the Pope or the Catholic Church have in China, India, Africa, the former Soviet Union, Japan and the Middle East - and even South America, which is hardly a uniformly traditional Catholic culture.<<

The Church's influence is close to zero in these countries as you say. Perhaps the real criticism of the Church on this thread is for its past policies of encouraging or turning a blind eye to population growth when it stood to gain from them.

>>His influence and that of the Catholic Church in these places is negligible. And these places account for the great bulk of the world's population.<<

Yep, but that doesn't absolve the Church for its past contribution to the problem. It would be like saying the Church had nothing to answer for for allowing paedophile priests to operate with impunity within its walls.

Pfft- the Vatican is merely jumping on the Climate Change Movement bandwagon to try to counter its appearance of being grievously archaic (well, in areas its flock would be neutral towards).

However, considering this organisation is AGAINST contraceptives, againts abortions (which means additional unwanted people that may have otherwise not been concieved)- and regularly shuttles around the world in private planes and encourages its flocks to converge on various countries around the world for its "World Youth Day" promo events (most likely by plane) that they would otherwise have no reason to take- its Green message is just useless hot air.

Nothing to see here.

Although it's sad that Catholics will think they're now 'environmentally friendly' when they're actually on the negative side of the environmental friendliness spectrum.

Outside the Fairfax media, this forum is one of the few places where anti-Catholic bigotry is given an airing - disguised, of course, as the rival religion, watermelon, whose adherents recognise each other by their posturing on global warming, sustainability, multiculturalism and deep concern for illegal immigrants.

And, hey, you don't even have to have any facts!

*The Church operates from a position of power and, not surprisingly, wants to stay there. It probably sees population increase as an opportunity to boost its numbers against other religions, such as Islam. So, they're on the population juggernaut too.*

I'd say that you are about right on that one, RobP. Plus the Vatican
has painted itself into a corner on this one. This pope can't really
go back on what previous popes claimed, or the whole papal infallibility
claim would be seen for what it is and they would
become a laughing stock. So they plod on regardless.

So we have such luminaries as the head of the church in Mozambique,
claim that some European made condoms are delibarately contaminated
with HIV, to control the population.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7014335.stm

The old pope still threatens to excommunicate politicians in
countries like Mexico, Spain and other places, who are pushing for
abortion rights, which we take for granted. Denying them a ticket
to heaven is of course a clever way of affecting politics in the
third world, thus affecting hundreds of millions.

Catholic driven pro life groups still claim that overpopulation
is all a nonsense and has nothing to do with poverty.

The Vatican was behind the heavy lobbying of Bush, to cut funding
for family planning in the third world, which is what happened.

Sounds like our Kenny here, does not see a problem either, when
it comes to global overpopulation. Perhaps he should go and live
in Dhaka for a while.

>>Outside the Fairfax media, this forum is one of the few places where anti-Catholic bigotry is given an airing - disguised, of course, as the rival religion, watermelon, whose adherents recognise each other by their posturing on global warming, sustainability, multiculturalism and deep concern for illegal immigrants.<<

It’s a lot easier to have a crack at your “opponents” by painting them as being dyed-in-the-wool so-and-sos. Let me just get backatchya, KenH, and tell you that the Church has said in recent times, mainly to the developed world, that asylum seekers should be treated better. I agree with that stance and their position against the practice of abortion (maybe not their doctrinaire approach but certainly the intent behind it) amongst others. Where does that leave your stereotypical comment now?

Still, there are some issues where the RC Church has a lot of atoning to do. Everyone knows it has plenty of dirty little secrets. Throughout history, it’s had its sticky fingers all over the domestic politics of whatever town, city or country in which it operated. Are you really saying the Church is as pure as the driven snow? That it has never put its own earthly interests before true Christian principles? That there's no merit in any criticism of it?

>>And, hey, you don't even have to have any facts!<<

You have no point. History is littered with the facts. Inform yourself.

>>… or the whole papal infallibility claim would be seen for what it is and they would become a laughing stock.<<

Yabby,

Good point, but I think this has already dawned on some of the faithful in light of the recent attack on the Pope in the Vatican. If he really was God’s envoy on earth, how could this possibly have happened? The truth is the whole papal infallibility myth is unravelling through natural life pressure with or without the Church kicking an own goal. (Of course they would never kick an own goal, so you can bet your bottom dollar that every reform they make will only be done after some kind of painful exposure.)

What a great thread! You know, even after 2000+ years of the biggest con that ever was, religious people still have very little value. Yes people! its power they want and now there getting upset cause they have been caught out with brain washing children where ever possible. The games up you religious lie making sheep minded fools, your being conned! The primitive mind made your god and we are sick and tired of how you do not help with the overpopulation and environmental problems we face in today's world.

Even the pope as done a 1\80 on the matter and you still don't see. Look! No-ones saying you cant do your faith thing, I mean we all believe in something, and this is how the human mind has wired its self through the sands of time. If man-kind does not wake-up soon, all that we value and live upon will be gone, and your own (god) will call you a fool. ( your brain )
You say he made this Eden for you? Well why are you not looking after it?

All religions are a scourge on this planet, and when they enter the fields of state or any other level of power, nothing ever of any good comes from it. ( stick to helping the poor )

Watch them very closely people.

Anything that separates its-selves from the natural world as much as they have, Is not all here.

Did anyone else notice that KenH claimed "South America...is hardly a uniformly traditional Catholic culture"?

Is this the South America on planet earth we're talking about, or is there another?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America#Religion

Religion aside, lets face it, all is in its right order.( now ) The next step is, who own,s Australia? If you don't learn, your boss, that's you ( maybe ), may have to wash dishes, and that will feel great? Wont it?

The white and black Australia should be in management for this rich, and carefree, which I think we are forgetting, country, which we must import to keep up. Not such a great plan, me thinks. I had a bad boss that came from a 3 world, and I wonder where my kids will go if we think we can party and not think of the bigger picture.

This is our country jack! so get to school and save your land.

Sounds racist, don't it! But answer me this! After your children leave school, where are they going to go?

Think Australia! If you don't work, who will be your next bosses?

Go to school! And don't wast any more time.

Management?mmmmmmmmmmm sounds nice to me.

Sancho, you are of course correct, South America is very
much Catholic and in recent years they were still fighting in places
like Peru and Chile, to deny people the right to a divorce, for in
those countries, divorce was not legal, due to past Catholic influence.

I let Kenny's comment pass, for I think he really does not know much
about the subject, prefering to have a general rant as anything that
he considers "left wing" on OLO.

In fact most people arn't aware of the huge army employed by the
Vatican, to affect politics globally and do their lobbying.

http://www.population-security.org/cffc-97-02.htm

gives a bit of an insight, as to how complex that lobbying really
is, far greater then most people would imagine.

RobP, I gather that the infallibility claim does not apply to the
everyday life of the popes, but just to certain proclamations that
they make "ex cathedra" IIRC, they call it. That is when they
are meant to be in touch with the Almighty himself, so cannot
apparently be wrong.

On a more realistic note, the way I've read it, the last pope
was around for a long time and had a particular chip on his
shoulder about sexual matters, right back to the days when Vatican
advisors were advising Paul-6th to approve the pill.

JP led the conservative battle going on at the Vatican and was
made the next pope, so all this conservative dogma about sex was
made Catholic law. The price paid by third world women is of
course enormous. Never mind their suffering for of course according
to Catholic dogma, suffering is noble. Thats why those Opus Dei
people have little whips and whip themselves.

Its really quite freaky stuff, when you start to explore it a bit.

I don't care what they do, its imposing their beliefs on others,
via the law, that I object to.

Aaah, Indonesia morns today, and as some of you are no doubt aware,

*Abdur Rahman Wahid (#1)
a.k.a. Gus Dur

passed away last night.

"Selamat Jalan Gus Dur"
(Good/Safe travel Gus Dur)

He was according to some of the people that I have spoken to popular with the local people for not taking himself too seriously, as evidenced by the fact he congratulated and supported the activities of a very famous Indonesian comedian who (who died quite some time ago after been hit by a car) who brought much joy and comic relief to Indonesian politics, as opposed to others we could mention who had a habit of locking comedians and satirists up.

He was Islam NU, known for not having an excessive amount of "regulations" but who hold to the importance of basic precepts, like being kind to others and not unnecessarily causing others to have pain in their Hearts.

My wife is non-practising NU ...

>>RobP, I gather that the infallibility claim does not apply to the everyday life of the popes, but just to certain proclamations that they make "ex cathedra" IIRC, they call it. That is when they are meant to be in touch with the Almighty himself, so cannot apparently be wrong.<<

Yabby,

Strictly speaking, you could well be right.

I was, I'd say, using the term papal infallibility in a sense as a euphemism for the way the Church hierarchy lords it over the majority of the population, whether that be by way of the Pope riding around in the popemobile or the Church hiding its manipulating ways behind arcane encyclicals written in heavy and nigh-on-impossible to understand Latin, thus keeping eveyone else in the dark or "in their place". It's the way they've always done this - thereby keeping ordinary people down or locked out - that I object to. Hardly a Christian value if you compare their deeds with Christ's.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the Vatican owns 50% of Mistral Air (a freight airline) and that it leases two 737s from MA to operate Pilgrim Air. When the Pope sells 'his' shares in all environmentally dodgy enterprises, and shuts down Pilgrim Air, I'd give him a few more points of credibility. When he instructs his Bishops worldwide to implement his claimed environmentalism as operational policy, I'll be impressed. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church operates a range of commercial enterprises that have significant environmental impacts and most of those enterprises (if not all of them) operate primarily on the basis of maximising returns to the Church. When I see the Church make Canon Law that prevents their selling bushland to 'developers', I'll be impressed; likewise if they ban the destruction of habitat for Catholic enterprises (e.g. schools, retirement complexes, etc.), and if they sacrifice economic gains by formally conserving important areas of bushland that they own, rather than flattening it themselves or selling it to the highest bidder.

But despite some decades of environmentalist rhetoric and symbolic policy, some of it fairly impressive, if flawed, the Catholic Church (as an institution and organisation) largely continues with business as usual. Sure, there are some relatively sound 'green' teachings in their school curricula, and there are some Catholics and Catholic organisations that do good work and promote eco-justice, but overall, the Church remains deeply hypocritical on this issue, much like the rest of society and its flawed institutions.

>>But despite some decades of environmentalist rhetoric and symbolic policy, some of it fairly impressive, if flawed, the Catholic Church (as an institution and organisation) largely continues with business as usual.<<

That sums it up pretty well, Samara. What you show is that the Church is now primarily a political organisation that is trying to put its spin on public discourse for its own benefit. They are really no different to anyone else that's in power. Their's is just an exercise in taking the path of least resistance in order to meet their earthly ends. They've got a long way to go, and a lot of atoning to do, to truly earn the epithet of being called Christian.

If anyone doubts the political power of the Church, consider this. What other movement on the planet has the clout to own its own sovereign City-state? This didn't come about because they humbly made a plea for it.

RobP,
Did you read my original post, 27 December 2009 2:54:23 PM?

It was very specific. The original comments on this topic made no sense. The arithmetic did not work.

Several commenters since then have tried to fudge the issue, claiming that well, no, the Pope's comments would have little or no effect on GLOBAL population increase, but might on local populations from here or there.

That's the sort of fundamental, bigotted dishonesty against which I have argued.

I have no interest in defending the Catholic Church against anything but the stupidly bigotted comments of people who try to attribute vast, conspiratorial power to the Pope and the Church with nary a fact to declare. Just loopy conspiracy theory. If you or anyone else wants to make an allegation, back it up with logic and evidence, not cant and posturing.

RobP,

You need to go read some history on the establishment of the Vatican city state. It wasn't imposed by military force or economic power, as you imply, but was established only in 1929 following negotiations between the Italian republic and the Holy See, which is not a nation. Vatican City is less than half a square kilometre and has a permanent population of about 800, a huge reduction in power from the days of the Papal States.

To suggest that the Holy See, an ecclesiastical entity, imposed this situation on the Italian republic is nonsense.

The original posts on this article revealed ignorance and bigotry, attributing to the Pope influence on human population growth which is demonstrably false. Read my original post.

Then tell me what influence the Pope has on the behaviour of populations in Africa, the former Soviet Union, China, India, Japan, the Middle East, the Hindu and Buddhist nations of south-east Asia, or Indonesia. These countries account for the great bulk of world population. His influence, such as it is, is marginal.

He has some, perhaps, in the Philippines and some South American nations, but not undisputed, as the various communist revolutionary movements in those places attest.

Yet when challenged, the commenters have slithered away into the dark corners of supposition and paranoia.

Conspiracy theories are no substitute for fact

KenH,

>>Several commenters since then have tried to fudge the issue, claiming that well, no, the Pope's comments would have little or no effect on GLOBAL population increase, but might on local populations from here or there.

That's the sort of fundamental, bigotted dishonesty against which I have argued.<<

Why is that bigoted? The Church is still a large contributor in their own right. When I said what I did about it, I was being honest, not tricky. I do not believe the Church today is in control of global population (because the GP has grown too big), but that IN THE PAST they very definitely had a hand in manipulating such policies, which have fed and multiplied into today's world reality. AND they are still very much a contributor today. What is so hard to understand about that? Drop the veil from your own eyes.
Your argument is moving the goalposts by pretending the past never happened and focussing only on the present.

>>I have no interest in defending the Catholic Church against anything but the stupidly bigotted comments of people who try to attribute vast, conspiratorial power to the Pope and the Church with nary a fact to declare.<<

(TBC)

(Cont)

Read my post again, I've already implied that this particular Pope is not responsible for the sins of the past. However, let's look at a contemporary issue - the exposure of past physical brutality and paedophilia in the Church. In the light of such events, a real Christian leader would instantly issue instructions to his clergy that this type of activity must not be tolerated or excepted from sanction by the RC system. Like his predecessors, this Pope has not really taken a leadership position but allowed the situation to drift whilst opportunistically positioning the Church so that it's cast in the best light. The Church, on this and many other issues, can be summed up as plenty of talk but no action – a classic case where Church as business trumps Church as properly practising institution. This disconnect between theory and practice is, in itself, a fundamental departure from true Christian values.

Re facts: the problem with facts is that for every fact there is another that shows something different. Following your nose via facts is rather like a dog chasing its tail: it can go on forever with very little being achieved.

The reasons for the Church's problems are many and, by and large, not his fault personally. One thing I will say for Benedict is that he has the potential to do good things. I hope he does. Only time will tell whether he does or not.

*Then tell me what influence the Pope has on the behaviour of populations in Africa, the former Soviet Union, China, India, Japan, the Middle East, the Hindu and Buddhist nations of south-east Asia, or Indonesia.*

Ah Kenny, before you debate these things, you really should do a bit
of homework. The Vatican openly admits to political activity and
lobbying globally to campaign against modern family planning.

This subject has been debated for the last 35 years or so, when
some people realised that overpopulation would become a major problem.

If the UN had acted then as was proposed, things would look quite
different today. Instead the Vatican has stymied most global efforts,
by very clever lobbying. For they knew that it would be
just about impossible to do much, without US money and political
will and Catholics have enough political power in the US, to
majorly influence US politics, thus family planning efforts
globally.

People like Mumford have gathered together some of this data, but
you need to bother to inform yourself, not just call it a conspiracy
theory. After all, I have seen no Vatican claim that its not true.

http://www.population-security.org/

.