There is a corollary to the simple fact that men are sexual predators:

If you choose to tease the tiger make sure that the tiger is in a very strong cage.

In human terms, if a woman wants to flirt, or tease (they are different things), without thinking that they this may have adverse consequences under some circumstances, then they are delusional.

The metaphorical cage that protects women are the laws, and morality, of a society. By staying within certain parameters of morality some (but not absolute - witness rape in marriage, or sexual abuse inside families) protection can be achieved.

No woman (or man) deserves to be raped, but there are some basic preventative actions that people can take. Such as not being alone, or in groups of two or three, with a larger number of males in the presence of alcohol or drugs.

Unfortunately both genders whilst young are attracted to what are essentially risky behaviours that in previous generations were more tightly controlled by family pressures, morality, religion and social mores. These controls have slipped away. There has always been rape, but the incidence of rape seems to be rising.

Women should, as I have said, treat men like the predators that they are. Ultimately human beings are essentially animals capable of higher thought processes than most other animals, but this doesn't stop humans from acting like animals.

By all means flirt, even tease, but don't expect males in uninhibited circumstances not to react in certain ways. Treat men as you would treat any other predator. Most rapes are committed by men who know their victims, not by strangers. So caution has to be exercised at all times.

I am surprised and saddended at some of the comments here that imply that men are so bedazzled by a woman's sexual powers that they lose all sense of right and wrong. It harks back to the old Eve = bad and evil temptress, Adam = good and led astray poor innocent male.

And then Doug's post and all I can say is - WOW!

Many years ago I debated with a male colleague at work who put to me that all men would rape if they thought they could get away with it. Ironically it was me, the woman, defending males. Your comment seems to mirror that view in some ways, unless I have misunderstood.

If I was a man I would resent being cast in that negative light just as a woman I resent being called a feminazi when I disagree with someone's point.

"If I was a man I would resent being cast in that negative light " - sure do. It's a pretty negative view of men.

I've got the impression that there are at least three different streams here but at times the arguments for the last two positions seem to get mixed up.

1/ The person doing the rape is entirely responsible and suggestions that there is a responsibility on the victim to try and alter their own behaviour to reduce risks is shifting blame to the victim
2/ The person doing the rape is entirely responsible but a smart person will take some precautions to avoid situations where the risk is elevated
3/ Some victims ask for it and the the rapist is not as guilty as they might be if the victim was not asking for it

I tend towards the second while wishing the first was practical. Regardless of how I'd like the world to be and how good most people might be there will always be some with no respect for others and we each have to make our own choices about the risks we choose and where and when we take them.

I also get frustrated that some do appear to try and use the risk management approach (version 2) to try and enforce their own sexual morality on others, the boundary between 2 and 3 starts to look rather tenuous sometimes.

R0bert

Flirting is an art - an aspect of social interaction involving wit, charm and enjoyment of another person.

Flirting may be between a male and female, two men or two women, irrespective of sexual inclination. It is a sophisticated form of communication that may not necessarily have a goal, it is the journey that counts and a successful flirting interaction leaves both people feeling flattered and happy.

It is not about trickery or lying. It is not playing games with "predatory males". I agree with Pelican, if I was a male, I would be very offended by the posts of the likes of Dougthebear, JamesH, Shadow Minister, Benk who all sound like people you'd encounter in Hickesville, 19th Century than in Australia 21st C. And to whom I feel the strong impetus to point out that if a woman smiles at you it does not mean she is hot for you - it means she is smiling and is being polite or friendly or whatever. How incredibly gauche you are.

No wonder you fail at, or are miserable in, your relationships with women. Then I have to wonder at the calibre of woman who would bother with you to begin with. The type of women you claim to socialise with - well maybe you just deserve each other.

No wonder these threads devolve into gender wars given the level of emotional maturity of some of the posters.

Fascinating. I'm an outrageous flirt and have been since my teens, and life would be very boring without it. Mind you, what most contributors to this thread don't seem to understand is that flirting is primarily a fun way of interacting with people with whom you have no intention of having sex - maybe that's what Doug is getting at when he distinguishes flirting from teasing.

As a man who was also socialised in the 1950s and 60s, I have to say that I'm pretty appalled at the attitudes expressed by some men in this thread about women and girls - and indeed other men. As a young man I had very little difficulty in negotiating consensual sex with various women, nor in discerning those who were interested and those who weren't.

I think it boils down to a latterly much-misused concept - that of respect. I wouldn't want to have sex with a woman I didn't respect, and certainly no woman has ever wanted me sexually who didn't respect me. Certainly, any man who is incapable of controlling his baser instincts and desires is unlikely to attract much in the way of respect from either women or men, and men who routinely disrespect women seem to me to be invariably quite miserable and angry.

r0bert,

'I also get frustrated that some do appear to try and use the risk management approach (version 2) to try and enforce their own sexual morality on others, the boundary between 2 and 3 starts to look rather tenuous sometimes.'

And as I said, that 'boundary' will deliberately be blurred (actually stamped on) by many with an affectation to yell 'Don't blame the victim!' . Any man who dares to express 2 is quickly labelled as expressing 3 by those with an axe to grind.

Fractelle,

'No wonder these threads devolve into gender wars given the level of emotional maturity of some of the posters.'

'No wonder you fail at, or are miserable in, your relationships with women. Then I have to wonder at the calibre of woman who would bother with you to begin with.'

I'd say the second comment is probably a good example for the first. Things were pretty even tempered before you decided you knew all about these posters private relationships with women, and labelling them a failure by your expert knowledge, and deciding about the 'calibre' of their partners.

Sorry to spoil the ending folks, but what happens next is one of the guys will return serve, but then Fractelle will play the victim and say things like 'I'm being victimised because I dare to have an opinion while being female'

pelican,

'If I was a man I would resent being cast in that negative light just as a woman I resent being called a feminazi when I disagree with someone's point.'

Ah you get used to it. Just read some of pynchme's posts. Even Fractelle's assertion that all men put women into 'f$ckable and 'non-f$ckable' categories is pretty offensive I reckon. Feminism was founded on quotes like 'all men are potential rapists' and most people don't have a problem with it.

All,

All this talk about flirting makes me think it's not only school kids that need lessons in sexual ethics.