david f - I think you've confused me with Philip Tang above. I'm not flattered ;)

glorfindel: << I didn't attack Orhan Cicek at all. >>

I didn't say you did. However, you being a good Christian and all, I thought you might be able to put yourself in the position of someone like Mr Cicek who is sincere in both his religious beliefs and his commitment to Australian society, but is hectored when he attempts to establish common ground with others who don't share his faith.

Your rather precious response to bushbasher's paraphrase of kactuz's Islamophobic rant indicates that your ability to empathise with others is compromised by your own blinkered faith, which makes you much more of a problem for Australian social harmony than moderate Muslims like Cicek. Further, it seems somewhat unchristian for you to "despise" someone personally because they point out an uncomfortable truth about your religion.

Why did you find it necessary to reply to me dishonestly?

Kactuz,
I hope you are not taken aback by the negative comments, some have made about your posts .It's pretty clean they haven’t taken the time to digest what you were saying. I can only surmise that they must believe that attaching labels like “islamophope” & “trolling” excuses them from having to think.

All,
I think that there is an important point a number of people are missing.Not only is Orhan saying that Islam is blameless with regard to the current round of terrorist acts, but (in sub-text) Islam is not guilt of any of the past injustices associated with its expansion – and further, Islam could never be responsible and anything unsavory.

In that respect, there is not a lot of difference between fundamentalist and moderate camps.

Orhan,

A piece by Paul Sheehan appeared in the SMH today titled “Ideological passion sells us short”.

I suggest you read it to get an idea about how an Australian might interpret the euphemistically-titled “unpleasant developments” you referred to in your article.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/ideological-passion-sells-us-short-20090809-ee65.html

But, you, as an Australian Muslim, have a different take on an event that strikes terror into the hearts of ordinary Australians: the arrest of fundamentalists planning a terrorist attack on Australian soil against Australians.

Is it any wonder that I take exception to your statement, that “as an Australian Muslim”, your concern “contained an additional amount of sensitivity in comparison to the rest of Australian society”.

I understand that you wish to create distance between the fundamentalists and other Australian Muslims. But you cannot achieve this by creating distance between Islam and terrorism. As another SMH commentator once said, all Muslims many not be terrorists, but all terrorists appear to be Muslims!

No doubt you fear reprisals toward the Muslim community in Australia. But are Australians really that bloody-minded?

Why do you claim victimhood “as an Australian muslim and social activists”. Why do you, above others “feel threatened by these allegations of terror plots”? Can you even imagine how the rest of Australia feels? Do you care?

The only solution you propose to this security threat, of terrorism festering on Australian soil, is this:

“…that Muslim youth in Australia learn Islam from correct sources”.

Read what Paul Sheehan has to say about “the judicial system of Islam”.

No, Orhan, the solution to this problem is not further indocrination of Muslim youth.

CJ, Perhaps you noticed that I pointed out the errors by Cicek. I have posted hundreds of comments, mostly on Muslim sites. I know Islamic doctrine and history, and it aint pretty. I have asked the questions you will not ask. Or do you think that we should ignore hate and violence? Is that your idea of coexistence?

BB - No, Cicek need not answer for all Muslims. He should explain, however, why he misquotes the quran and hadith to make them less hideous. Ignorance or dishonesty? Figure it out.

Taner - About hate. I don’t kick Muslims. I tell them the truth. I tell them what is in their writings and ask them to explain. Do you have a problem with that?

Spare me silly epithets like Islamophobic, because this old man, like Scarlet, doesnt give a damn. I’ve been called worse. If I were afraid of Muslims, I'd have quit when your religion-of-peace friends started threatening my family.

Cicek is your standard vanilla “moderate” Muslim. As such, he ignores the hate and violence in Islam. He changes or invents verses to make them sound better. He takes no responsibility for the evils that Muslims do. He considers Mohammad to be a great moral example when his prophet was anything but moral. When you read the hadith to Muslims and point out the hundreds of evil acts done by their dear prophet, they mutter some stupid excuse and leave (if you are lucky!). There is no introspection for Muslims. Islam is perfect so don’t think (”O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you may cause trouble… Some people before you did ask questions, and on that account lost their faith.” 5:101-102).

I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I’ll go to Cicek’s Multicultural site and send an email asking him to explain (here on OLO) his misquotes and/or verse 9:111 I am sure he will jump at the chance to enlighten us with his deep knowledge of Islam. I hope you all noticed the sarcasm dripping from every letter.

Kactuz

PS: Thanks, Horus

David f,

I don’t know if Tamils were the first suicide bombers prior to the Palestinians—perhaps some other commentator in this thread could disabuse my ignorance-- but my comparison was between Christians and Muslims so your point is completely pointless.

As for American pilots being suicide-bombers in the Battle of Midway, one must really overstretch one’s imagination. You totally disregard the elementary fact that America had never had a self immolating or suicidal cult in its culture, as there is definitively a suicidal cult among Muslim fanatics. So your riposte is intellectually “post less” as it cannot find the address of reason.

Certainly, stating the obvious, Muslims are human, and even the fanatics among them. But the latter, like all fanatics of whatever religion or ideology, are UNREASONING humans and therefore are unapproachable by the dictates of reason. So your appeal to them will be a complete futile and barren exercise by you. And lastly, Thomas Hardy’s poem by which you thought would strengthen your argument is totally misplaced as it applies to REASONING combatants.

http://kotzabasis.wordpress.com

Email to info@intercultural.org.au

Mr. Orhan Cicek.

Dear Sir: I have read your article “Not in the name of our Islam” and related comments at Onlineopinion.org.au with interest. Here is the link:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=9278

I found your arguments less than persuasive. You have misquoted the Quran and hadith and made references to Islam’s prophet that are historically incorrect and morally suspect, based upon accounts in the Traditions

Do be specific I would like to know why you misquoted Quran 5:32? Are you not aware of the full text of this verse, or is it because it sounds better the way you phrased it? Also, please tell me why you changed Bukhari’s saying “Muslims do not kill Muslims” to “Muslims do not kill people”?

While you are at it, please explain Quran 9:111. For years I’ve been looking for a kind Muslim that will explain Allah’s words to me. Is there any hidden context or statue of limitations I am unaware of?

One last thing - You say your prophet is a role model. Hummmm. I have read the hadith and it seems to me that he attacked villages and caravans dozens of times. He plundered them and enslaved men women and children. There are also accounts of murder, lying, torture, raping female captives. There is ahadith in which Aisha says “he hit me and caused me pain” so it could be that Mohammad beat his wife also. In case you want references for these claims, I will provide links (to Muslim sites, of course). By the way, aren’t all those special privileges given to Mohammad in Quran suspicious?

I am writing this because people at OLO consider you to be a decent knowledgeable moderate Muslim. Good for you. I, on the other hand, feel that even the good Muslims are less an honest when it comes to their religion and so cannot be counted on to stand for freedom, equality, human rights and separation of church and state.

I hope you will take time from your busy schedule, go to OLO. and answer these serious issues.

Sincerely,

Jay Arthur, old man kactuz