So are we to smoke 2 packs of cigarettes a day, drink a bottle of whiskey and go out for a drive? Peter, there is no correlation whatsoever between sensible precautions and faith.
You also indulge in the disgusting habit of linking disaster with faith or God, like he posts that linked the Victorian bush fires with God's revenge. Totally disgusting.
So you hide behind your 'faith' and your puny image of God and write silly little articles like this.

Bertrand Russell had it right about fear:

"Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a better place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it".

The second part of Bertrand Russell's observations:

"What We Must Do
We want to stand upon our own feet and look fair and square at the world -- its good facts, its bad facts, its beauties, and its ugliness; see the world as it is and be not afraid of it. Conquer the world by intelligence and not merely by being slavishly subdued by the terror that comes from it. The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create".

Well Daviy, I think what Peter says makes good sense. Sensible precautions are just that, sensible, and desirable.

"Helicopter parenting" is another thing. Kids can be so cossetted they fail to learn how to manage risk sensibly, because they never get the chance.

The Air France disaster is an example of where sensible precautions fail. That's life; it happens. A month ago, despite two headlights, three tail lights and reflective clothing, I was knocked off my bike by a car... it happens. If we think we can neutralise all risk, then we are simply wrong. What I think Peter is pointing out is that some people are so afraid of risk, and so need to be in control, that they miss many of the joys of life.

You should read him again. He is not linking disaster with God, saying God causes disasters. He said those disasters that happen despite all sensible precautions are "voice of God." If God is the Ultimate Reality, then when we meet our finitude and inability to control and direct reality, we have met the voice of God. As he says, "We are creatures subject to hazard and death." If we try and avoid that we are living in a dream... I think you can come to that conclusion from a religious or secular position. You can also describe the fact that people do try and avoid it from a secular or religious position. You have replied "knee-jerk" because you are opposed to religion, and simply failed to hear the valid point he is making.

Andrew Prior http://churchrewired.org

Was it Bertrand Russell who said Christianity was 'afflicting the comfortable and comforting the afflicted'? It's all about paradoxes too,
that 'dying He destroyed our death, living, He restored our life'.

And standing with the poor and marginalised, like the prophet Amos, who
certainly didn't play it safe, but then, none of the true prophets ever did, and they all paid the price for their risk-taking.

Mat10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

"Codswallop" - Sells

You learned ones of the Christian variety just don't get it, do you?

I'm yet to see a Church that faithfully teaches the Gospels. Do you know your Bible?

Let Jesus's alleged words correct you.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I GO UNTO THE FATHER: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

Why don't churches teach this?

When Jesus was baptized God allegedly said Luke 3:22 "Thou art MY BELOVED SON; in thee I am well pleased"

Did God call himself his son?

You say "Christians have recognised that Christ is God, the Lord, the one with whom we have to deal." the Bible says you are wrong!

But Jesus says much more

Moses (the mass murderer NUMBERS 31:13-19) will accuse us - as Jesus allegedly says John 5:45-47....Moses...is the very one that will accuse you..."

Are we safe...to submit our spirituality to churches who misrepresent the truth by selectively quoting the gospels?

And what of the churches?

Jesus allegedly said "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Luke 16:13

and yet if this article is true the churches have put themselves above the gospels

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/16261.htm

So are we safe?

You say "Faith is not the soft option, it is the hard but necessary option."

But faith in what?...the Bible, the teachings of Jesus as portrayed in the Bible and wrongly taught by the churches?

Faith in a single entity God/Jesus clearly not expressed in the Gospels?

Before you lecture us on Religious matters shouldn't you actually know your Bible?

Remember Jesus allegedly said these things that I have quoted and they are stated clearly in your Bible. Back to the books old fella!

So is Jesus' word good enough for you to believe, OR, Did Jesus get it wrong in John 14:28 and you know better?

Opinionated2.

"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul, producing holy witness,
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!"

(Shakespeare: Antonio to Bassanio in The Merchant of Venice, Act I Scene 3)

"The rest is silence."
(Shakespeare, "Hamlet", Act 5 Scene 2)

Rev 14:7 "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Warm and safe in fear of god.

Peter Sellick resonates to some extent with the modern obsession with safety and if I am honest I can see it in myself at times with my own children. I am not sure if parents were as vigilant in the past, I don't think so, at least not in the same way. Perhaps it is because we talk more about issues once hidden such as child sexual abuse and the public airing of numerous cases makes us more wary.

Much of the government's obsession with safety and the idea that now our government's are in the business of protecting us from obesity, smoking, drinking, road safety etc comes probably from competing pressures from various lobby groups and to some extent justification for the existence of parts of the public service.

At the local level the obsession has arisen from fear of being sued. Should a pedestrian trip over an tree root protruding into the road and sue the local Council for lack duty of care and medical expenses - following in the footsteps of the American obsession with litigation.

As for God, it is not new that those who preach the Gospels have always used the fear of God to maintain their numbers and bring newcomers to the fold. The concept of hell is a tool for fear - how many Christians have been taught over the years that if they sin without repent they will go to hell. Materialism has nothing to do with it and maturity and common sense will equally tear down those false notions of safety in material goods.

Perhaps those looking for safety in materialism need go no further than some of the more modern churches who embrace materialism such as Hillsong and some of the more evangelical US churches.

No Peter we are definitely not safe and cannot be. I agree with a great deal of your comments though, even though I am an atheist. I particularly like your reference to Jesus being put to death because he was a stirrer I have always believed he was more akin to being a communist or at least very left.

I believe your thoughts are sincere, the problem is, religion has lost the race, quite simply because religion has relied on fear throughout history and now so do politicians. Scare the people into whatever you want them to believe. The Americans have it down to a fine art. The media love nothing more than to scare people witless.

I fervently hope people continue to think for themselves and see through all the hype and spin; both politically and religiously.

I believe are sincere and a good man though.

real and present danger...media complicity/govt treasons revealed..for many war/murder is just a job...few are called to account..but here is one..[quoted extracts from]
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2773

world/health organasation/un/us...funded and participated..in the final phase..of the implementation of a covert international bioweapons program..involving the pharmaceutical companies Baxter and Novartis..in direct violation of the Biological Weapons Anti-terrorism Act.

Burgermeister’s charges include evidence that Baxter AG,..Austrian subsidiary of Baxter International,..deliberately sent out 72 kilos of live bird flu virus,..supplied by the WHO in the winter of 2009 to 16 laboratories in four counties.

She claims this evidence offers clear proof that the pharmaceutical companies and international government agencies themselves are actively engaged in producing,..developing,..manufacturing and distributing biological agents..classified as the most deadly bioweapons on earth in order to trigger a pandemic and cause mass death.

In her April charges,..she noted that Baxter’s lab in Austria,..one of the supposedly most secure biosecurity labs in the world,..

did not adhere to the most basic and essential steps to keep 72 kilos of a pathogen..classified as a bioweapon..meant to be kept..secure and separate..from all other substances..under stringent biosecurity level regulations,..but..it allowed it..to be mixed with the ordinary human flu virus..and sent from its facilities in Orth in the Donau.

In February, when a staff member at BioTest in the Czech Republic tested the material meant for candidate vaccines on ferrets,..the ferrets died.

This incident was not followed up by any investigation from the WHO..EU,..or Austrian health authorities. There was no investigation of the content of the virus material, and there is no data on the genetic sequence of the virus released.

In answer to parliamentary questions on May 20th,..the Austrian Health Minister,Alois Stoger,revealed that the incident had been handled not as a biosecurity lapse,as it should have been,...but as an offence against the veterinary code...

A veterinary doctor was sent to the lab for a brief inspection.

Burgermeister’s dossier..reveals that the release of the virus was to be an essential step for triggering a pandemic..that would allow the WHO to declare a Level 6 Pandemic.She lists the...

begins and ends at link
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2773

A useful reminder of the debilitating nature of the nanny State, Sells.

Not sure the segue into "Christianity Rools OK" came off very well, though. Not a great deal of logical linkage there, more a tacked-on afterthought. Needs some work, I suspect.

The rest of it was fine.

Is that a new photo? Cute.

The first half of this essay was good---the second half is unmitigated drivel.

Conventional exoteric religiosity (of which Sells is a fully paid up subscriber)is only about crowd control, and nothing more

Both exoteric religion and secular scientific materialism are magic paranoid (and, altogether, anti-ecstatic) traditions, rooted in fear of the magical powers potential in every individual.

Both have, for many centuries,especially in the West, been actively instructing, or propagandistically coercing, humankind to disbelieve---or, without or apart from actual experience and the exercise of true discriminative intelligence, to dissociate from all modes of association with magical, and metaphysical, and even Spiritual, and, in general, ecstasy-producing ideas and activities.

The process of negative indoctrination to which humankind (especially in the West) has long been subjected by its sacred and secular authorities, has, actually, been a magic-paranoid political, social, economic, and cultural effort to enforce a worldly, or gross realist, or thoroughly materialist, and, altogether, anti-ecstatic, anti-magical, anti-metaphysical, and anti-Spiritual, model of human life upon all individuals and collectives.

The entire effort to idealize the gross physical individual and, on that basis, to cause universal worldliness, has required the universal suppression of the innate natural magical, metaphysical, and ultimately, Spiritual, and. altogether, ecstatic potential of the human psycho-physical body-mind---but, also, and profoundly more importantly, this entire anti-ecstatic enterprise or paradigm has deprived humankind of its necessary access to Inherently egoless Truth Itself.

The fundamental human urge and need is not gross in its nature.

The fundamental human urge and need is not food, sex, power, things, or even physical survival.

The fundamental human urge and need is happiness---but not in the mere gross satisfaction-of-self sense.

The fundamental human urge and need is ECSTASY--or the free exercise of the ability to step outside, or to effectively exceed and transcend, the point-of-view bondage of egoic and, altogether, mortal phsical self-identity.

What would Happen if all of humankind were--now and forever hereafter--allowed complete, unobstructed, and Perfcet ecstatic access to Inherently egoless Truth Itself?

What would Happen if--instead of access merely to worldly, or gross realist, or scientific materialist, or exclusively exoteric, and traditionally "official", and anti-ecstatic, and anti-magical, and anti-metaphysical, and anti-Spiritual ego-"truth" and pseudo-ultimacy--all of humankind were, from now on, allowed complete and unobstructed and Perfectly ecstatic access to Inherently egoless Truth Itself?

What would Happen if--from now on--the political, social,economic, and cultural totality of humankind were allowed to establish and perpetuate itself entirely and only on the Perfectly ecstatic basis of the inherently egoless Truth That IS Reality Itself?

Now let's see what happens when there is no fear of God or authority.

We murder the unborn for convenience believing we will never face judgement.
We condone sexual perversion even know it leads to disease and death.
We give excuse for criminals and ignore the victims of crime.
We allow children to spit on teachers and refuse to punish them.
We create an outward morality (often environmentalism) and inwardly are full of deceit and corruption
We promise to be faithful to our husband or wife knowing that we really mean 'for better but certainly not for worse' hence making us liars
We believe silly lies like evolution because we don't want to acknowledge to easily observable fact that we have been created.
We turn money, sports and sex into idols
We pretend to be tolerant of all religions but inwardly despise Christ because we refuse His salvation
We love our little fake world because we are stupid enough to believe we are gods as is spelled out in the lack of morals in medicine.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. In fact the fear of God drives out the fear of man or anything else.

Every person has fears but most are misdirected. Any man that does not fear for his own soul is a fool. Eternal damnation is no laughing matter. Thankfully the wise will turn to the Only One who can save their soul and that one certainly isn't Al Gore or Tim Flannery. It is only a healthy fear of God that puts this life into perspective.

Glorfindel,

If you are calling the Churches "A goodly apple rotten at the heart" then you may be correct.

The average blind follower won't be harshly judged by a loving God, (if one exists), but will the organisations, that have put Christian principles below their own selfishness, arrogance and greed?

I'd hate to think you were using Shakespearean quotes, to hide behind, calling me names, and so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Do not judge others...Matthew 7 your God is watching!

If you were referring to me wouldn't that be unChristian and quite cowardly?

But it does beg the question...Why did the all knowing and all powerful God allow Satan to live, when God, (according to the Bible), clearly knew he was up to no good? JOB 1:6-7, Revelations 12:9

God has power over Satan! Isn't to state, even Satan can quote scripture, deceitful in the extreme, when you don't question what the Bible alleges what God did? Wasn't it God who smote all the firstborn of Egypt? The Bible says it was! Exodus 12:29

Now Runner...Did God allegedly drown all the people of the Earth in the great flood other than Noah and his family? Genesis 7-8

If so would there have been innocent babies, children, unborn babies in their mothers wombs etc. that also drowned?

If Moses killed everyone except the virgins (NUMBERS 31:13-19) supposedly with God's approval...Was this a bad example for Moses and God to set? Why aren't you incensed?

When God "hardenened pharoah's heart" (Exodus 7:3) and then used that hardening to kill all the innocent first born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29)...was that setting a good example?

Even Jesus, (Matthew 5:17-20)…empowers the law of Moses plus unequivocally states in verse 18…"As long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the law will be done away with...."

Exodus 31:15…Kill...Exodus 21:17…Kill...Leviticus 20:10...Kill Deuteronomy 3:3...kill...Deuteronomy 22:20-2...Kill.

Why aren't people incensed about Bible allegations about God?

Are we safe, to trust organisations, OR the followers, who never question these atrocities?

Opinionated2

You ask
.Now Runner...Did God allegedly drown all the people of the Earth in the great flood other than Noah and his family? Genesis 7-8 Yes

If so would there have been innocent babies, children, unborn babies in their mothers wombs etc. that also drowned? Yes

If Moses killed everyone except the virgins (NUMBERS 31:13-19) supposedly with God's approval...Was this a bad example for Moses and God to set? Why aren't you incensed? Because every day is proof of God's mercy to a corrupt and rotten generation. You can not be incensed by such as merciful God.

When God "hardenened pharoah's heart" (Exodus 7:3) and then used that hardening to kill all the innocent first born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29)...was that setting a good example? No but don't forget that Pharoah many times hardened his own heart just as it appears you have done.

Suddenly someone who claims moral relativism is incensed when His/Creator judges the earth as I would think He is entitled to do. The fact that you are merely the clay as opposed to the Potter shows how proud and arrogant you are. Without God you have no moral basis to even claim killing babies is wrong.

You seem to pick on what you disapprove of ignoring the rottenness of your own heart and the mercy that God has shown in sending His Son to die for your corruption. It is not a very smart move and I suspect you deliberately ignore God's love towards you.

Nobody is safe. Farmers have a saying, you have livestock, there will be dead stock. The Bible says only a diamond can sharpen a diamond, and a good understanding of risk, is necessary to live a life worth living. It is all very well to try to minimize risk, but if you are born, you will die physically. It is just a question of when. If you are lucky, born with a fair amount of intelligence, get yourself educated, and work hard, then there is a fair chance you will live a long life, but there are no guarantees.

It seems Sells has updated his picture. He has aged considerably. What he is saying though is essentially correct. People are so scared of fear, they refuse to live. I liked the quote from Keith Miller, when asked if he was stressed by the pressures of test cricket. His reply was that that was not stress, stress was flying a mosquito fighter bomber with a Me 109 on your tail. A certain amount of risk is essential to a full and happy life.

I see a mention of Hillsong Church, and a linking of that Church with materialism. Hillsong is all about spirituality, taking a huge risk, in believing that Almighty God is indeed sovereign, and putting your trust in Him. That so many actually go there and continue to attend is a testimony in itself.

When the Anglicans and Roman Catholic Churches have captive audiences for most of their formative years, attending their educational institutions, but cannot retain ninety percent of their students after they leave school is a rejection of the teaching of fear as a weapon. The Lutheran Church, by contrast is said to retain ninety percent of their students to do life together.

Instead of being central to the management of risk, and teaching the essentials of good government adopted by the English, to the chagrin of Rome, as set out in the Gospels, both have abdicated their responsibilities, and consequently lost their central place in society. A nanny State has replaced them and become secular Church

opinionated quoted the same questions at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8830
and as he hasnt responded it appears the reply is as it is..[as it rebuts the general missconception of a vengefull god,..many claim god to be[wrongly]..lets just add here..that we forget who's realm this is

as i wrote at the other topic in genesis its god till in gen2;4 it becomes lord god[that is blamed...further the lord[of this realm]did the flood thing and the hardening of the heart...

see that those who claim to love the life GIVER..[god]...who think the life giver is pleased with ANY death...is insulting the living loving grace that god is...even a beast knows its masters voice..[and the good/god that gives and sustains even the most vile living..[to live]..does not takeaway his gift

[but the lord of this realm..is only too willing to let those who dont know the eternal living/light/love/life/good[god]..believe as they chose...for indeed we are a willfull and foolish generation wrought of clay...so fixated in our own[self]..of materialistic being's..as to put the higher things of spirit behind us so unthinkingly..

as those of the days gone by did before us..[who shake the dust from their sandles,...even when the great treacher briefly visited FROM his realm into/our fathers..[lords]..material/realm to bring some enlightenment to the topic,

and divide the..[this realms/lords house]..[the faulse god head of this realm..[the decievers realm]..just as anyone..is lord in their own realm/castle...so is satan lord of this realm..[know the lord of this one..is not..the master of them all]

jesus..[you shall call him god within us all]..emanuel...was offered this..[satans..[realm and refused it]..but it seems he cast his seed on stoney ground...and i..it seems clear am casting them onto muddied waters..[ammoung the weeds]...how dare you lot missjudge your true god

ye cannot serve two masters[you cant have a foot in each house]..there comes a time when you must chose...to accept LOVE/light/grace/mercy/life..or accept fear/hate/darkness/death..

they are clear oppisites...the life GIVER dont kill/murder..how can you not see...but jesus couldnt change that we love[in our heart]god lives there/

know how great your own church/body is by knowing it houses gods living spirit[emanuel..god within]

Sells,

Your ‘thesis’ on risk-taking/ risk aversion, as has already been commented on here in that it resonates to some extent with the modern obsession on safety - but your solution to the ‘problem’ is not quite so resounding. Christians may well recognise, “that Christ is God, the Lord, the one with whom we have to deal” but others certainly have legitimate symbolism. Buddhist detachment is not merely “practiced in order to avoid pain”. Attachment is one translation of the word trishna - which can also be translated as thirst, desire, lust, craving, or clinging. The inference here is that when we fail to recognise that all things are imperfect, impermanent, and insubstantial, we cling to them in the delusion that they are indeed perfect, permanent, and substantial. I find this little different, in essence, to many religious teachings on idolatry. By clinging to these delusions, we most definitely make false assumptions for ‘perfection’, ‘permanence’ or ‘substantiality’.

Whilst you have an aversion to liberalism, and I guess theologian Paul Tillich falls under this broad umbrella , I think he’s quite right in saying, “…[w]e relate symbols to each other. We explain their meaning. There is language in every religion, and the existence of language means that there are universals, and of universals that there are concepts, and of concepts that one must think, even on the most primitive level.”

Gregory of Nyssa (to whom you have referred) moved beyond Aristotle's psychological explanation. Using the metaphor of a city in which family members come in by various gates but all meet somewhere inside, Gregory said this can occur only if we presuppose a transcendent self to which all of one's experiences are referred (Making of Man 10 [152 - 153]). Only the human nous has a transcendent nature in addition to its ‘energies’ – this is what makes us like God. Gregory is almost Kantian (and ‘liberal’) in his view of God, who being dependent on nothing, governs the universe through the ‘risky’ free exercise of will, with our ‘nous’ made in his image.

Relda,
I am not sure I understand much of your post. My naive understanding of Buddhism is that detachment is a work one does that leaves the person essentially alone. That is, it is not about finding the self in the other. Instead of being immersed in the world, one attempts to be separate from it. If this is even remotely correct it is the antithesis of Christianity.
A useful dialectic on the problem of the modern thirst for security and perfection is between utopia and presence. Modernity, unchecked will strive for utopia and exhaust itself. This is opposed to a striving for presence, the presence of God and therefore our presence transformed.
I do not understand your reference to Nyssa, is this a universalising statement about the world religions or a statement of how individuals come to the faith? Surely it must be the latter.
Tillich may have said the odd good thing but his theology is impossible.
Peter Sellick

"A useful dialectic on the problem of the modern thirst for security and perfection is between utopia and presence. Modernity, unchecked will strive for utopia and exhaust itself." - Sells

The above concept is almost Daoist. The Ancient Chinese emphasised "moderation", because, if there was great good, good must exist in-kind with its complementary, bad, and to the equal magtitude. Yet, I apprecaite Sells' point, that it healthy to live in the present (journey), rather than in a state-of-suspension pending the attainment of a future goal, if that is the point he is trying to make.

Runner,

Re-read your bile! Shouldn't you stop pretending to represent God?

If you believe that the Bible is correct and that God murdered innocent men, women and children, and allows slavery aren't you a blasphemer? Isn't that sacrilegious?

On one hand you call God loving & merciful and yet you acknowledge that GOD has done the most horrid deeds to mankind! If you believe GOD has the right to murder innocents you are simply WRONG!

Are you a nutty Pharisee?

Did you even blink when you answered, YES, that GOD had drowned innocent babies, children, unborn babies in their mothers wombs etc.?

Then you state...<<You cannot be incensed by such a merciful God>>

And you are wrong here...<<...don't forget that Pharoah many times hardened his own heart just as it appears you have done.>>

You misrepresent the Bible!

Exodus 7:3-4: "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you,....."

So even though some of the verses say Pharoah remained stubbourn, his stubbourness was caused by God unleashing his power over Pharoah's heart! What sort of merciful, loving God would do this?

But worse, then you show your lack of Christianity by stating I have a rotten heart and am corrupt-you FAIL "Do not judge others" Matthew 7? Are you smart enough to assess anyone?

Runner...Are you an angry, little person? Your claim to be Christian is looking somewhat tarnished! I turn the other cheek!Matthew 5:39

Now OUG - the fact that I haven't gotten back to you on the other thread is one of time constraints. It takes time to read your messy, poorly constructed contributions and sort through the garbage.

You say this is Satan's realm...well that is laughable! Satan doesn't exist...Aren't you the deceiver here by typing such rubbish?

I pray to God that he assists you in your abilities in sentence structure and communication skills..I hope he answers at least that prayer...Ha!

Oh you might also like to read...Is the Bible inerrant, infallible or God's word? http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2572&page=0

o2<<the fact that I haven't gotten back to you on the other thread is one of time constraints.>>thats fine with me,as much as i enjoy your pointed questions,i more enjoy resolving them

<<It takes time to read your messy,poorly constructed contributions and sort through the garbage.>>.thats fine..i was raised a science nutter,..till in time i realised science was decieving,..then found the living god,..and took to study of many holy texts..[little caring about the other bit players names in the story..[as much as..knowing what they were conveying to the reader of their testimony[about god]

in essence everything is god...if one was to boil it all down,god is all there is...as some put it god is the dreamer[we but his dream]..i draw strength from knowing the truth of that we did to the least we doing to god

<<You say this is Satan's realm...well that is laughable!..Satan doesn't exist...Aren't you the deceiver here by typing such rubbish?>>..mate think of it as you will..personally im sick of the devil made me do it excuse/blame game...

and as previously said,..regard satan...as the least..[that yet is greater than the baptiser]...its not about him being real..[but that satanist's realm/is this realm..[the only realm where true evil/and true good can interact]

<<I pray to God that he assists you in your abilities in sentence structure and communication skills..I hope he answers at least that prayer...Ha!>..as i said..you dont have enough faith to make this happen..

[but lets say i was a perfect writer,..is it not the facts revealed..that should be witness to the perfect,..rather than skillfull writing...

i comfort myself that many of gods messengers were not perfect..[for but one is perfect good..[god]..light/love/sustaining/logic/life..in all of lifes in-perfections...their root cause is yet perfect

I guess my point, Sells, was that Gregory of Nyssa was particularly accommodating for his time when the Christian idea of ‘eternal damnation’ was becoming increasingly orthodox. ‘Universalism’ or universal reconciliation, also called universal salvation, as you undoubtedly know, is the doctrine or belief that all can receive salvation, regardless of belief. Gregory defended this doctrine - universal salvation (including ‘Satan’) was clearly taught by him, for he was a profound thinker of the school of Origen (his spiritual godfather). Ironically, the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553 condemned Origen's universalism - according to the wishes of Emperor Flavius Justinian, and this ‘impossible’ doctrine of universalism has been heterodox in most of Western Christianity since then.

To take us a little off track Oliver, and to be ‘living in the present’, I found this Graffiti, St John's University New York, to be amusing:
"And Jesus said to them, "Who do you say that I am?" They replied' You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the kerygma of which we find the ultimate meaning in our interpersonal relationships.' And Jesus said, 'What?"

No one is safe. At least not from runner. *shudder at the anachronistic logic... if you can even call it that*

OUG,

The Bible a seriously flawed document.

You are right Eve was created after Adam was warned, and as a result of wrongful Bible teaching women have been seriously wronged! Their entire gender has been oppressed.

Adam allowed Eve to take the blame. The myth of Adam presents man as a weakling!

Why should the man (Adam) be given the right to forgive the woman (Eve) when Adam was the one who truly is at fault.

Many of Moses' laws are oppressive laws, created by an evil man (Moses), and justified by saying that God gave them to him.

Refer "Laws on Sexual Purity" Deuteronomy 22 13-30.

Modern man through the Churches teachings have continued with this oppression based on Paul (a single man's view) 1 Timothy2:11-15

Why doesn't God allow women to be equal...they allegedly are his creation too?

God knew Man would fail the test in Eden...Is it wrong to set man up to fail?!

Why only the men can forgive their women and daughters...more misogynistic rubbish!

<<the book of mosus must be presumed to be writen by mosus..>>

Wrong! Moses didn't write these books he wouldn't write in the third person - He would have said "God told ME to say" NOT "God told Moses to say".

If God loves Satan also then why doesn't he correct his evil creation?

God doesn't help the innocent...He didn't intervene in the holocaust, he didn't intervene in Rwanda he doesn't cure people with amputations.

Why would a loving God create hell when he could simply have stopped all sin? Why doesn't God just kill the devil? Why doesn't he intervene with all the prayers of intervention going on?

This Earth is not hellish for lots of people but it is very tough for many. Why have the western countries prospered whilst the third world still suffers?

God fails to keep the promises made through his messenger (as you call him) Jesus.

God has let down all the people from time in memorium...It is documented in his Bible and taught as though it is nothing!

Opinionated 2

You write
'Re-read your bile! Shouldn't you stop pretending to represent God?'
Thanks for the advice. I will continue to do it daily.

You write

'If you believe that the Bible is correct and that God murdered innocent men, women and children, and allows slavery aren't you a blasphemer? Isn't that sacrilegious?

On one hand you call God loving & merciful and yet you acknowledge that GOD has done the most horrid deeds to mankind! If you believe GOD has the right to murder innocents you are simply WRONG!'

You define God's judgement as 'horrid deeds to mankind' not me. I just happen to believe God is God and am thankful that His mercy triumphs over HIs judgement. God is fully within His rights to be God which encompassed judgement to the sinner (of which you and I are). I doubt whether you will be in a position to wave your puny fist on judgement day. I just hope you show a little humility before that and come to salvation.

You accuse me of the serious crime of misrepresenting the bible but are yet to quote a Scripture in proper context.

You ask me if I am an angry person. At times yes but generally no. My life has been to blessed and I have no reason to be angry.

Your answers point quite clearly to the fact that you have very little knowledge of the God of Israel or His Son. Hopefully you will get a revelation of the horrible death went through to save corrupt and immoral people like you and me.

My reputation as a Christian means little to me. What my Saviour thinks is far more important than you or anyone else followed by what those I live with think.. It is Him I am answerable to. To some I am a saint to others a mongrel. I would be neglecting my duty not to correct the rubbish you espouse in relation to God and the bible.

Having worked in a factory environment, being safe is more than just an attitude change, it is a respect for both your own life and those of others. It is the realisation that your actions could not only affect your own safety, but those of others that has enabled the average life expectancy to increase.

While there are some ridiculous side effects, I believe the world is a better place.

Is Sells equating Christianity with recklessness?

It is exactly that arrogance, and the refusal to accept that the consequences of some of their actions inflict huge misery on mulitudes (i.e. condoms and abortions) that earns fundementalist christians the contempt of more liberally minded persons.

my reaction is against the..[any]..book..being the word of god...books are only needed to know mortal-beings/things/opinions...god the eternal,lives in real time..[for all the time]..those seeking to make oppresive/disciminatory/hurtfull/laws,..or capture the living god into a dead book..[in dead words..know the living/loving eternal not in the least]

seeking his..[gods]..opinion is relitivly simple...if the answer to a question is good/loving of grace and mercy..[its from god]..if its hurtfull/injurious..its not/from god...if nothing else..jesus revealed/a personal living loving god..[who lives/interacts with all of us..in real time]..for all time...

not..the/god of yesterday..[nor..the god/of tomorrow...but the living god/right here/right now...living..every second within us/all..sustaining us/all..to live..[good]

re-god/loving satan...look at it this way..if he hated[satan]..satan would be gone..simply..by god saying/..begone...but know/that evil has no power over innocence...its only..by us thinking evil..[that allows evil/..things to happen]

think of it like this..if/when we think..'love',..we are surrounded by angels..[light]...but if we think..'dark thoughts'..the light gets driven away...allowing..the dark forces/to surround us..[but the smallest good..[light]..dispells the darkness...drives it away...

i hear you say;..but what of..innocents abused..[think that the darkness condems/itself]..that the living-spirit they abuse..[sustaining that life..is god'spirit...they abuse supreem innocence...

the innocent/soul is kept safe...its only the material corpus abused...the innocent is totally protected..[till it despoils..[or choses to..despoil..its own innocence..or not/..

by thinking vengence or duplicating..[replicating the darkness]...the smallest vile thought..drives/..the light/away..[yet the smallest good..attracts the light..and can drive..the darkness/away

the so called deadly sins..[greed/sloth/envey/jealosy/hate/fear...etc attract..that certain darkness..to it..they feed on our negetative/energies...just as we feed off the good energies...i have tried to explain/some of it..at this forum..[till i got banned]
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/index.php

i would narrow it down/further..but am sure no-one really..is listening

realise that before god[theos]..there was nothing but darkness..[god is the light/life/love/logic/logus...without god..is the darkness...god didnt..'make'..hell..[thats his natural theos/form[like our form is our body...but then we/mind/body/soul..[like god/theos/logos]..are much more than our body..[mind feelings etc]...those who reject the light/love..only can escape/the light..by going into the bowels..of the god head/theos..[so to speak]

it gets complicated..to explain...but there are some links/clues tips to be found in swedenbergs writings..[heaven and hell]..arcania celestia..also
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/gonewest.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/wsltoc.html

i realise i havnt replied your questions..o2]...mosus wrote the so-called ten laws/command-meants...basiclly about having nothing before god..[this includes any of his many messengers]...

but the laws are about interacting..with living/god..eg..[the adultery one..has become a physical/bodilly interpritation..[the object of the law..when read in context..reads not to/adulterate.gods laws..[yet people needed more..thus we got..the mosaic/laws]

jesus tried to/bring..back/the basics...revealing the many others..not to be..gods laws...but mens laws...thus we see him..'healing'..those cast out/because of blemishes etc...your healed go to your priest...but im digressing away yet again

<<God doesn't..intervene/in the holocaust,../intervene in Rwanda>>..god holds/freewill..supreem[..an imortal regards..'death'..as a nothing]...remember we are all cast down..[to this realm..[there are/..no innocents..here..[think of this as outcast's/prisoners/..life term etc...we asked for total/freewill..[and got it]

<<Why doesn't he intervene..?>>yeah right..the left hand/prays;..god kill the/right hand..[the right prays;..kill the left..[god dont do the killing thing]..how is the saying..[carefull for what you ask?]you just might get it...god dont do anything..we can/could do..ourselves

<<This Earth is not hellish/..but it is very tough for many.>>many of us incarnated..JUST TO HELP..[but got so involved/with this life illusions..we cant..even..help ourselves]

<<Why..the third world still suffers?>>..science evolution is a deception..[but spiritual evolution is the reality...beasts need a few evolutions..to become human...every hardship has its teaching..[spiritually speaking...we are all needed..to tell the whole story

we are/..all..'gods people'...we let ourselves down..[and our god]..we asked..[begged]..to be let down..to help..this realm...but get caught up/..like the many..who came before us..[if we only recalled our birth-reason,..many would be doing..what they planned to do...one less to help..[one more helping..[one more explaining...one more loving]

dont sweat on it..too much...there is little/..even the worst can do..on this prison planet...every good we do has weight...as jesus said...what the use casting out one demon...only for him to return with 6 extra..to a clean house...till we seek to do better..[really yearn to do better...no one can force us/..to do better

its funny how evils..PASSION to sin..seems greater than/goods PASSION..to do good...good is more than accusing...its deliberatly forgiving../others..as we would like to be forgiven/..ourselves..

[we all get equal wages..[grace]..in the end...to be forgiven..is as easy as/..forgiving others...till we figure that out..[all the..accusing/blame/casting out of demons...lol..wont do a thing]

Shadow

I dont think Sells is advocating 'recklessness' or the abandonment of work place safety measures.

His point is about the relationship between sensible management of risk and engaging with the world in which we live. His question is more like this.
Consider a typical saturday afternoon where you have the option of staying at home or driving across town to see a movie. Compared to driving across town, staying at home is a safer choice (though not without some risk). Driving across town involves risk to you and to others on the road with whom you might collide. Should you stay at home because that is the safer option or do you decide that driving across town is a managable risk and choose in favour of the movie?

A better analogy still, perhaps, is the business of falling in love. What are the risks? But then what is lost by choosing the safe option?

Of course, we all know that life involves taking many risks and that there really are no totally safe options and Sells, of course, is making a point about faith and the nature of the Church. There is a persistent misconception that choosing faith is a retreat into safety. This error is encouraged by many evangelical churches who thoroughly deserve the contempt being heaped upon them by others in this discussion.

Jesus' fate is testament to the fact that faith is a high risk venture with very high stakes. It is not an easy solution to all your problems. Indeed it will probably only add to your problems which begs the question, "WHY?".

Runner,

So you will continue to PRETEND to represent God daily...Amazing admission really.

I guess most people here realise you misrepresent God anyway!

The fact that you continue to hold true that the Bible illustrates God killing innocent men, women and children is exactly that...blasphemy.

I quote exact passes from the Bible...yet they are supposedly out of context. Do you understand context Runner?

God hardened Pharoah's heart... the Bible (your book) is explicit. He being God knew what the outcome would be...so he is guilty of mass murder if that event happened OR those are the words of God.

Exodus 12:29 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

Tell me how that is taken out of context?

Moses (the mass murderer, who committed genecide and ethnic cleansing in NUMBERS 31:13-19) will accuse us - as Jesus allegedly says John 5:45-47....Moses...is the very one that will accuse you..."

Again how is that taken out of context? Or this?

Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I(LORD) will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

The "out of context argument" used by religious people is absurd. It is the one refuge for the underinformed who know the Bible undermines their argument totally!

Are you feeling a little silly at this stage?

Where is the loving God that people tell me about in these instances?

But worse...ARE WE SAFE?.... to rely on religious institutions who would preach such rubbish as TRUTH when it is an obviously fabricated and impossible story.

Teaching myth as truth about God must be a sin in the eyes of your God.

Is your GOD really this unintelligent?

two points..the biggest is about this thing called reserection day..[jesus main teaching was that when we die we are all reborn again..[so much so that he appeared..[after death]..to prove it...it seems too easilly missed that..EVEN a thief on a cross...was assured he would..[this DAY]..BE REBORN IN HEAVEN

anyhow my other concern..is that people think to judge god/good..[or bad]...first aspect is..how dare we judge god..[but the other point is..even a beast knows its masters voice..[there is no evil in god,..god is all good

know that That all evils/..originate in mankind and are to be shunned.

That good actions are of God..and from God,..and are therefore necessary for life..and should be done...that we know of a surity we are doing his will.

That these good acts..are to be done by a person..as if from him/herself;..but that it ought to be acknowledged..that they are done from the god...with..him/her..yet by him/her...to be closer to god[good].

Swedenborg writes extensively about the process of spiritual growth, which he called..“regeneration.”..He says that:

“All who are being reformed..and regenerated..are gifted with charity and faith..but..there are evils and falsities with which one has[had] from infancy,..which stand in the way

these evils and falsities must be vastated/before one can be regenerated;..for until corporeal things,..become quiescent(such as the things of the love of self and of the world),..celestial and spiritual things,..which are of the affection of good and truth,from god..cannot flow in …”[AC 2967,2]

In other words:the process of spiritual growth..involves an emptying out of our selfish ego states..in order to reach the depth of the Divine/good/grace/mercy/love/logic...

we react against God..as a result of our[human]evil..However,..to the extent that we believe that our life comes from God..and that everything good..comes from an act of God..then..[we can become one with the Divine]#68

When..“one acknowledges that evil is evil,..and good is good/god,..and thinks that the good ought to be chosen,..he is in what is called the state of reformation,..but when his will leads him to shun evil and do good,..the state of regeneration begins.”

Bloody hell. I actually agree with almost half of an article by Sells.
Even Runner has managed to come up with a cogent, consistent argument:
God doesn't have to be ethical, moral or good, because he's God!
It's a worry.

It would be my criticism of ‘evangelicals’ also waterboy, where faith becomes a retreat into some kind of safety net, rather than perhaps showing a strength of confidence in the face of great risk and uncertainty. I think the risk many evangelicals also face is in their failure to understand Jesus as a Jewish figure teaching and acting within Judaism, here the risk is great that they misunderstand as to what he was on about.

As to the question of “Why?,”Michael Novac gives a poignant expression of this in, ‘ No One Sees God: The Dark Night of Atheists and Believers’, “..Granted that I am overcome with the experience of nothingness, how should I live? The alternatives come down to two: some form of suicide (drugs, drink, fast living, killing time will do) such as Albert Camus contemplated in the Myth of Sisyphus. Or this: creatio ex nihilo,reaching down into nothingness to create a new being..." He adds also, but by what light? Following which stars? For in order to have one’s "soul go far beyond any human contrivance you must be willing to go out into the desert and the night" (as did Elijah).

What is our modern nihilism? Nietzsche gave good answer: "The aim is lacking; 'why?' finds no answer." Some thing is to be achieved through the process - and now one realises that ‘becoming’ aims at nothing and achieves nothing."

HEAVEN IS A PLACE ON EARTH

This article states---- <Not the old life of the living dead but the new life of the living dying.>

Wasn't it once stated by some author that---- < the only thing sadder than life is death itself> A more realistic statement,one not based on the belief in life after death.

Then there are the words of the song <HEAVEN IS A PLACE ON EARTH>
Our only option then is to try to live as fulfilling a life as we can while we are alive. Find some kind of hope and joy in every day despite sometimes bleak circumstances.

<TWO MEN LOOKED THROUGH PRISON BARS, ONE SAW MUD THE OTHER SAW STARS

Waterboy,

To quote Sells:

"We are told that speed kills and we are fined if we exceed the limit by only a fraction. Without speed we could go nowhere, which is the point of the motor car. What kills is recklessness, not speed."

So while Sells might have been trying to say "Carpe diem" or seize the day, he gave a couple of very bad examples.

Taking advantage of what life offers is always good advice, but to suspend rationality is not.

Shadow

I would say that it is not possible to live without 'suspending rationality' on a pretty regular basis.

How often do you have to make decisions without full information to guide your 'reason'? What place do emotions like love and wonder play in the 'rational' life? What 'reason' fires the appreciation of a Beethoven symphony?

Perhaps Sells choice of example was intended to illustrate how simplistic legislation often misses the point. Speed limits are used largely because they are relatively easy to enforce but they address safety issues only indirectly and with limited effect. Its a lot easier to write legislation that 'reduces risk' than it is to write legislation that 'gives life'. You cannot make yourself safe on the road just by obeying the speed limit. The question is not whether you are safe but whether the risk is worth it.

Driving at any speed involves risk, we used to ride horses for transport and how 'risky' was that? We choose to travel in spite of the risks involved because it turns out to be a necessity of life and a pathway to greater enjoyment of life. We take risks of all sorts in order to engage with our world and participate in society.

Sells point is not that speeding is ok but that it can be life-denying to elevate risk aversion to be a dominant factor in life choices and everyday desicion making. Risk can not be eliminated but it can be denied and it is cerftainly a fair question to ask whether that is a good thing.

OUG,

I'm not judging God....I am questioning the honesty and truth behind the stories about God as laid out in the Bible, and as taught by religions.

People who believe that GOD drowned innocent women and children are actually the ones totally misrepresenting their GOD. Churches are unreliable teachers because they skim over these falsehoods!

It is inexcusable to call God a loving, caring, compassionate GOD and then accept that GOD killed and authorised the killing of so many people as stated in the verses I have quoted.

Either GOD is a mass murderer OR the accounts are wrong!

It is the people who believe that the most intelligent being in the Universe could allow such things, and teach myth as fact that undermines GOD moe than anything I have stated.

If God exists, I am actually defending him/her/it against the untruths taught by the religions about the alleged actions based on myths contained in the Bible!

How will GOD judge those who are crazy enough to accept and teach he authorised these atrocities?

I believe the process of spiritual growth goes much deeper than what you suggest. The first thing is to realise that GOD couldn't have done such horrors. To undo false indoctrinations as taught from the texts and open ones life to love one another unreservedly.

To do this one can't oppress homosexuals, women, aboriginals or anyone. One can't limit women and homosexuals from travelling their spiritual journeys by implementing, with an iron bigotted fist, rules made by stupid men.

The rubbish that comes from the mouths of many religious people, that continues to encourage the oppression of others based on flawed and falsified religious texts is the greatest sin.

Show me a Christian who follows the command DO UNTO OTHERS....Matthew 7:12, and I'll be seeing a rarity in Christian society.

Are we safe? when the fact is most don't even know their Bibles, accepting blindly obviously wrong teachings? God gave us an enquiring mind...perhaps we should use it!

That is why I question so harshly...hopefully some might be brave enough to actually realise they are wrong!

Waterboy,

Rationality involves mitigating risk to an acceptable level, not eliminating it.

For example I am a far from placid driver, but shortly after getting my license, I put myself on an advanced drivers course with a police instructor who taught me to anticipate problems and to handle a car at speed and in adverse conditions such as a skid. The result is that in 30 years I have never had an accident, and have several times been able to avoid close calls from P platers etc.

There is no need to suspend rationality to enjoy art, love or any other emotion, rather to enhance it. It is a complimentry not an either/or situation. Likewise it would not be wise to exclude emotion from decision making, rather to acknowledge its limitations.

Life can be lived to the maximum without recklessness or suspension of rationality. Religion requires both.

i cant really arue with most of what your saying[opinionated]...except the..[only]..two moptions/you offer[quote..<<Either GOD is a mass murderer OR the accounts are wrong!>>>.i think..we are i agreement that/god is incapable of mass murder...

but im equally sure of the reported accounts...having a basis for truth...thus i feel the story tellers..decieved themselves..[or were decieved by demons]..the quaran actually reveals the imputs of the jinnns in part...though fully attributed to the arch angel

what i would dispute..is that god..did..everything that is accorded to him..in the wholy texts...the true god is unlikely to need an arc of any covenant..to communicate to mankind..[for egsample]..from personal experience our inner voice commune direct...live time all the time..[to the highest good..[as well as the lowest/least of mans vile

to try to explain it more precicely...our mind communes direct to the angels in heaven..[and/or the lowest demons in hell]...that if our want is hurtfull..[or selfish,..our very mind/set.. sets up the very attraction..to one or the other..according as we are searching for..[along the lines of more shall be given]

i would give a simple explanation,..that when we are in love everything SEEMS perfect..[that when we are down bad thoughts run wild...

i note that drunk..[and or stoned]..people become susseptable to negative mindsets..[by virtue of their inhibitions falling away..[attracts those after-being spirits,..being..attracted to that very self same mindset...we are synching up with.

our negative thought/energies..are like food for demons..[or rather those spirits of like negative/addictive..mindset..[we actually draw/think them to us,..with negative thought..they naturally come to feed off them..[bringing us down/even more..[like our mind tuning in to hell...

[or visa versa re positive vibes/prayer/song/dance...attuining us into heaven]

how i feel is..our negative mind,..syncques up..to the lower thoughts in hell,..just as our positive loving mind sincqes up into the heavens..either inspiring or depressing us..

..according to the mindset were setting entrain...its partly why i love your precice/pointed questions...they force me to ask...but by focusing on positivity/love

OUG I'm certain that we agree that a loving God would not commit mass murder.

I also appreciate that you are willing to discuss these topics with an open mind. It is wonderful that you read the passages that I select and whilst you may disagree with me, from time to time, to still assess them unbiasedly.

I don't blame people for being indoctrinated. The Churches have mastered the skill of manipulating the minds of young people from a very early age and selling the warm fuzzy Jesus.

What we are taught so vividly when young is difficult to question when we get older. It is even more difficult to question when people don't know their Bible and rely on some selective interpretations.

That is why in other threads I have asked...What do people's churches teach about the passover? If the Churches teach the passover as correct then they are undermining their loving God.

If it wasn't for Jesus (in the minds of young kids) we wouldn't get Easter Eggs or Christmas presents.

And yet from these traditions the concept of kindness to our fellow man are at least brought into the open for our considerations.

People who blindly accept the Bible as fact, even though it presents the God they call loving and caring as a monster, worry me.

They undermine their GOD and are too stubborn to even realise it. I guess that is the proof of the power of indoctrination!

I don't believe in the Bible God and yet I accept that we're spiritual beings.

Spirituality (in a non-religious sense) brings out the best in all of us. It means we are kind, caring, empathetic and compassionate. Religions whilst claiming to be the same actually use threats of God's vengeance and eternal hell and damnation as their motivator.

Furthermore religions all believe they OWN GOD! A spiritual person shares their experiences in a much more loving and caring way. No threats - just simple honest explanation.

Christians have divided Jesus' (their alleged son of God's) ministry into over 22,000 subgroups - so much for Jesus' teachings!

o2..again with the agreement/thing...re pass-over,..that i strongly feel has become perverted...here we have..jesus being born..again...proving there is /..a life after death...and the best churches can teach is..christ died for OUR SINS...that by him dying.. foir us...lol..he became the scapecoat..to make us pure/sinfree...lol

completly missed/..is that forgiving comes with a precondition...staying pure...what the use..to be made pure every sunday...then to go out and sin on monday...

jesus taught about this..re the casting out of demons..[being of little use...because the will to sin/demon..only comes back..ever stronger..[or as jesus said it..for 7 demons to return..to a cleaned body/house]

here i feel..the churches/..get things wrong..[grace is a new start..[that no matter how vile..we may have been...via christ..we can get a clean slate...but if we dirty the slate..[ie dont clean up our acts,..how may times..must we turn the other cheek..[to the same hand..slapping us in the face]

jesus died..specificly before the passover...a time many died..to prove to us all we die..and all/get born-again...but we allready covered that...so i will go to satan-claws..clause..[xmass time]...the day jesus was born into the flesh..

[as opposed to the day..he was reborn../born-again..into the spirit...its..celibrated at the wrong time...it should be synched up to the proper day..[whichever day..it really is,..the timming of it needs to be clear..to reveal the full context

it pains me..that christs house..is as divided as his fathers house was divided..in jesus earthly days..he didnt come to found any religion..[that was pauls idea..who fleshed out some of the contexts...and mixed back in a lot of the error..jesu came here to get rid of...

its sad that christs house..is divided...but its even more sad watching..otherwise good xtian souls..screaming like demons at children..for demons to leave/be cast out..or to see xtians casting stones,..calling that sinfull..that is no more than human error

but jesus came and soon realised..they were missing his live teachings...like when he says..its not yet my time...or ye unbelieving generation needing miracles...

why are people so blind..they strain for gnats yet swallow cammels...but none of us is perfect...to ere is human..[to forgive is de vine]

In reality, it is not so much in the risks, collectively, that we fail to take but more, it is the distrust that has become a constituent part of our political and economic logic and modeling. Fear and aggressiveness dominate our behaviour, not trust, kindred feeling or even the simpatico for which we look – this, however, is merely the logic of our state.

The Tällberg Foundation tells us in its ‘A Provocation’ that a “blink of an eye in history” has given humankind the thought there were no limits, or boundaries as to what rationality and reason could produce: this was the myth of progress. That the power of human logic would be the dominating force of the universe has proved the most foolhardy escapade into arrogance and ignorance. The disappointing conclusion is that we have taken our civilization to the brink of the abyss. “The idea that linear hierarchical, sequential, cause and effect logics, reductionism and fragmentation and the blessing of competition would foster a perpetuum mobile of material growth, have all proven to be wrong. We are at the end of this road” – T.F.

Those who merely relegate the ‘religious’ to the purely irrational, are shown to be, ultimately, and a little ironically, as insensible. Almost six decades ago Albert Schweitzer believed our will to live is naturally parasitic and antagonistic towards the life surrounding us. He prophetically challenged, “Man has lost the capacity to foresee and to forestall. He will end by destroying the earth.” Christianity, at its earliest inception, longed for the destruction of the current world and a new one to replace it – with the saints governing it. Buried deep within its psyche, each new generation (of Christianity) hoped to be the one to see the world destroyed (not transformed) with a better one to replace it, it’s a risky proposition - if believed and acted upon.