And so is the debate now heading for a horribly fruitless end between the Scylla and Charybdis of Martin Ibn Warriq and Opinionated2?

On the one hand is the religious literalist who cannot accept that the Bible is neither objective history nor a book of rules but rather an imaginative narrative told largely in metaphorical language.

On the other side our atheist will not accept that many Christians read the Bible as imaginative narrative and metaphor. Despite everything other people might try to point out to the contrary, O2 keeps accusing all of them of believing in the Bible as literal,factual truth.

There's not much point in saying anything to either of these clashing rocks or their ilk. Theirs is the mindset that causes violence in our world. I suggest future discussion should simply ignore them.

Actually Crabsy you are wrong!

I don't accuse all Christians of this but there are many out there who believe it to be the utter truth.

Do the churches teach it as truth? I don't hear you whaling at the Churches for creating misinformation and creating hatred!

Why not?

Fancy accusing me at least of having the mindset of causing violence in the world. I am so anti-violence that it isn't funny.

Why do you make such a false accusation?

Why in the 21st century can't we discuss things openly?

Are you scared of free speech?

Can you write to the Churches and explain this "an imaginative narrative told largely in metaphorical language" to them.

Someone forgot to tell them!

I've never heard them say "the Bible is an imaginative narrative" have you?

Aren't you just making that up?

How many Christians here believe the Bible is an imaginative narrative?

Finally can you tell me how many Christians believe the Bible to be factually correct? How many just think it is a narrative?

And whilst you are at it...Can you point me in the direction of a Church or group of churches that teach the Bible as "an imaginative narrative told largely in metaphorical language".

Sometimes it is so easy to type something BUT when asked to prove your point it gets much much harder!

O2

Seems you are the ignorant one!
Biblical inerrancy is not taught in the mainstream seminaries.
It is, however, taught in many minor Bible colleges (usually independent) and they do have an unwarranted influence over many lay people.

The mainstream seminary I attended taught us to use the methods of literary criticism to read and understand the Bible. Since the Bible is a collection of writings from different times and different literary genres it is an oversimplification to 'characterise' it as of any one particular genre (such as 'imaginative narrative'). It contains imaginative narrative, poetry, theological discourse and many other genres. The Gospels are particularly interesting in that they are 'creative' arrangements of pre-existing material (sayings attributed to Jesus) ordered by 'narrative' elements which include historical references. It is as much a mistake to dismiss the historical elements of the NT as it is to 'overstate' its historicity.

You asked Crabsy why he 'accused you' of "having the mindset of causing violence in the world."
That could have something to do with the condescending and abusive tone of many of your posts. You and Martin have a lot in common despite being diametrically opposed in beliefs.

Waterboy…..OOps didn't you just fail Bible 101?

Did your seminary teach you "do not judge others"…Matthew 7:1-5 - your assessment of me as "seeming to be ignorant" & “condescending” is a judgement. You failed John 8:7…let he who has not sinned cast the first stone….”

As you typed it here you failed Exodus 20:16…"Do not bear false witness"! OOPs

"I turn the other cheek"…Matthew 5:39

But lets get into some Bible study...the kind that isn’t taught in Churches!

I will quote the Holy Bible, not just the NT, because it is the whole Bible that churches preach...isn't it?

1. Was Moses a war criminal?....NUMBERS 31:13-19

Was Moses a witch doctor who performed magic to get approval and power…Exodus 4:2-5 then had all competitors killed…Exodus 22:17 so to remain in power?

Egyptian magicians did the same tricks….Exodus 7:8-13. Did God give them their powers?

2. Exodus 7:3….God allegedly says "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart..."

Culminating in

Exodus 12:29…"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt..."

Did God murder all the Egyptian firstborn?

Was the Passover mentioned in your Church this Easter? Was the last supper the Passover meal?

Which "methods of literary criticism" did the priest/minister/preacher mention...If he/she didn't, why not? Did you correct him/her like you choose to correct me? Why so timid?

3. Jesus, (Matthew 5:17-20)…empowers the law of Moses plus unequivocally states in verse 18…"As long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the law will be done away with...."

Some of mad Moses’ laws

Exodus 31:15…Kill people who work on the Sabbath.

Exodus 21:17…Kill people whocurseth his father, or his mother.

Leviticus 20:10….Kill all adulterers

Deuteronomy 22:20-21…Kill non-virgin women after wedding night

Deuteronomy 22:28-29….Rapists can pay 50 pieces of Gold and the rape victim must remain married to the rapist.

We need Churches and the religious amongst us to explain which bits are "truth" and which are falsehoods still taught by Churches! Can Christians teach fibs?

History UPDATE...More wars have been caused by religions than my condescending tone!...lol

darn o2 your a hard hitter,..but clearly have done some hitting on the wholy book,..i think we can all agree its certainly a great read,and of most value as the means to sepperate out the sheep from the wheat[to mix some meta-fore's]

i think the testiments they contain are mostly written by sin-cere people[inteligent people]who really had experiances they attributed to god[but also in many cases from not god]

jesus revealed many great wisdoms[but the teachings should be used to filter out the wheat from the tares]...his highest teaching is love god by loving neighbour...and that even a beast in the stable knows the voice of his master

god is love..[good true,..the giver and sustainer of all life]..and thus feel i can sort the fable from the feeble in any holy text..[if its death murder vile or the other human negative emotions..[thats not from god[good]

i feel most could agree that jesus by and large reveals love[if not love a faith in that good][where he upsets the money changers[or the pharosees, or a tree that refuses to fruit[or advises his deciples to take to the sword]...

i chose to take the teaching from it that he was after all born of woman[thus human][or that humans may have made simple human error in missing the point or intent of his teaching's]

in no way can any holy text be taken as infalable..[after all there is but one perfect[god]let ye without sin etc..meaning none is perfect..even with the stoning of the woman,..it is easy to imagine the words jesus wrote in the dust to have been the central command-ment[thou shalt not murder]

anyhow i stick with his main reason being to reveal to the judeans that there is no resurection..'day'..clearly if he can assure even a thief soon to be dead that even the thief will enter into heaven this day[his appearances there after on earth,..cannot have been in mortal flesh]

i fail to see why he would be expected to return to this[satans]realm,..he was offered it and refused it[his returning was done when expected as is recorded at the time]

Opinionated

"Did your seminary teach you "do not judge others"… "
Discernment wasnt proscribed, only judgement.

As for your complaints against the Bible..
I suppose these might be problems if you took them to be literally true? DO you?

In various places Jesus demonstrated that common sense can tell us when rigid application of the Law is inappropriate. Jesus 'broke' the Sabbath Law, He 'broke' the purity laws and befriended all the wrong people. Jesus' disputes with the Pharisees often revolved around His non-compliance with the legal requirements of the Law. Matt 5:18 must be understood in the light of all that Jesus said and did. He is not advocating rigid application of the Law but He does say that conformance to the Spirit of the Law is much harder than formal compliance with the letter of the law. Read the Sermon on the Mount.

Basically, Jesus taught that rigid application of the rules was a form of evil and that justice, mercy and faithfulness take precedence over the Law. I dont believe Jesus would have any problem with me vigorously disclaiming your mischievous misrepresentation of S.

As I have said before, you have setup a silly and simplistic characterisation of the Bible which you find easy to disclaim. This 'method' of debate is called the straw-man argument. It doesnt carry any real weight.

There are fundamentalist Churches that teach Biblical literalism and I actually share your distrust of them. I do, however, manage to find many congregations that practice justice, mercy and faithfulness where the Bible is read quite intelligently and the Gospel is proclaimed faithfully. But Churches are like women. If you wait around for Miss Perfect then you'll die a bachelor.